U.S. Politics transition time how Orange became the new black

[Dr. Pepper]

Trump praises Putin's decision to delay a response to Obama's sanctions and calls him smart.  

So here's the start of the so-called ammunition others mentioned in the last thread that the GOP would use against Trump on this matter.  I am certain not a single thing will happen to Trump.  He can do anything and every conservative will just praise him and fall in line.  

[Kalbear]

6 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I get your point, but the degree to which that ideal (winning is the most important thing) can be taken can certainly be psychopathic. To extend your sports analogy, let's say Bill Belichick knew unequivocally that Aaron Hernandez was a murderer before he drafted him. That would be seen by anyone as a psychopathic dedication to the ideal.

 To get in bed with a dictator, the leader of a country that has long been held up as the antithesis of your country's ideals, in order to win an election is psychopathic in my estimation. It's not defensible. We have some clearly laid out rules even regarding taking campaign contributions from foreign powers. This is an order of magnitude greater than even that. To suggest that we owe the Russians a debt of gratitude for mucking with our election process is fucking outrageous. 

Putin's twitter game is on point.

All of those things are fairly important to people who care more about unfairness and rules being followed, but those morals just don't matter to others. You can call it psychopathic but it really, really isn't. It's just wanting to win, and willing to cheat in order to do so. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Putin's twitter game is on point.

Haha. Brilliant.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

35 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

To the Obama supporters, do any of you actually understand what Obama is trying to achieve with these last gasp  rolls of the dice? Why is he striking out so petulantly now, when it can all be undone by the next president in any case?

I don't recall Bush taking these types of actions in the lead up to Obama taking over.

What does he hope to achieve?

He's driving a pretty effect wedge between Trump and Republican Leadership in the Congress.

[Commodore]

Putin is a paper tiger totally dependent on oil prices. Get those down and he is toothless (as are many other bad actors like Venezuela/Iran/Saudis). Any government official inhibiting domestic energy production needs to justify their posture against this reality. 

Funny how no one gave a shit about this "hack" when it occurred, it was barely a story at the time (probably because the emails were embarrassing for the media/DNC). Podesta got a phishing email, like everyone with an email account has gotten many times, and he fell for it. The leaked emails revealed a cozy relationship between the DNC and the media, and a few other embarrassing tidbits. But that's it. Nobody's vote was changed by them.

 Now this has turned into Fake News with claims of "vote hacking" and "election hacks". It's 2004 Diebold all over again. And it's being perpetuated by major media.

Putin is right to ignore Obama's lazy half assed attempts at virtue signaling after the fact with sanctions.

I don't like Putin, he's a KGB thug. But both GWB and Obama tried to be friendly with him, from the hysteria you would think Trump is out of the norm (Romney is the only one to speak out strongly against Russia).  

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Commodore,

Putin inavded and successfully annexed a large chunk of a neighboring nation.  Then sponsored a proxy war in the same nation making a play for even more territory.  That's not a "paper tiger".

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 minutes ago, Commodore said:

Putin is a paper tiger totally dependent on oil prices. Get those down and he is toothless (as are many other bad actors like Venezuela/Iran/Saudis). Any government official inhibiting domestic energy production needs to justify their posture against this reality. 

Funny how no one gave a shit about this "hack" when it occurred, it was barely a story at the time (probably because the emails were embarrassing for the media/DNC). Podesta got a phishing email, like everyone with an email account has gotten many times, and he fell for it. The leaked emails revealed a cozy relationship between the DNC and the media, and a few other embarrassing tidbits. But that's it. Nobody's vote was changed by them.

 Now this has turned into Fake News with claims of "vote hacking" and "election hacks". It's 2004 Diebold all over again. And it's being perpetuated by major media.

Putin is right to ignore Obama's lazy half assed attempts at virtue signaling after the fact with sanctions.

I don't like Putin, he's a KGB thug. But both GWB and Obama tried to be friendly with him, from the hysteria you would think Trump is out of the norm (Romney is the only one to speak out strongly against Russia).  

To call Putin a "paper tiger totally dependent on oil prices" is laughable. Oil prices have been at historic lows over the last couple of years and yet in this time Putin has reclaimed Crimea, wreaked havoc with the West's plans in Ukraine, and taken control of the Syrian war.

Amongst a whole bunch of other things.

He is the most powerful and effective "paper tiger" I have ever seen.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, Commodore said:

Nobody's vote was changed by them.

Probably not, at least not on a wide scale, but I do think it's quite likely that it caused a lot of Sanders supporters who were still on the fence about Hillary to stay home.

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Commodore said:

Funny how no one gave a shit about this "hack" when it occurred, it was barely a story at the time (probably because the emails were embarrassing for the media/DNC). Podesta got a phishing email, like everyone with an email account has gotten many times, and he fell for it. The leaked emails revealed a cozy relationship between the DNC and the media, and a few other embarrassing tidbits. But that's it. Nobody's vote was changed by them.

Lots and lots and lots of people cared quite a bit about it when it came out and were calling for Obama to take action back as early as July. The notion that no one cared is obviously incorrect and easily disproven. 

Quote

He's driving a pretty effect wedge between Trump and Republican Leadership in the Congress.

Not really. Ryan and Rubio both came out and said they want more sanctions, as did McCain and Graham - but the first two are going to roll over on Trump as soon as they have to, and Trump doesn't need or want McCain or Graham. And Trump doesn't care if you say things as long as you go along with him later - which Ryan and Rubio absolutely will do. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

2 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Sure, but I doubt that Larry the Imp is a Trump supporter. I'd be pretty shocked if that were the case.

 

I get your point regarding the GOP pivot, but I don't think that practicality makes that congressman's statement any less bizarre. We have reached Bizarro World levels of irony here. This is the fucking Republican party we're talking about. They coined the term the Evil Empire for the Soviets. The statement that Russia did us a public service coming from a Republican congressman is as insane as it is stuffed with bullshit. 

Yeah, definitely not a Trump supporter. I just don't think it should be shocking that Russia or anyone other powerful faction, be it a nation or a corporation would try to influence a US presidential election if they could.  

I'm pissed that Trump seemes totally unconcerned and his crush on Putin is so weird I don't even know where to begin, beyond just acknowledging Trump's fetish for unadulterated power.  But I don't see what kind of stronger response from Obama is warranted.  

Ditto on the bizarro world levels of irony.   What is stranger: Trump & co's sycophantic Putin worship, or the Left's wrath and fury that Russia would try something like this?

 

Channel4s JS, I see you are still avoiding putting forward a suggestion of what should have been done with the Ukraine, this time by saying that, well, it doesn't matter because Putin knew no one would do anything.  That's not an answer.  At this point I'll just take it as a tacit admission that you don't know what should have been done.  

[butterbumps!]

I'm struggling to understand why people see Obama's passing sanctions on Russia as "petulant," and why some see Putin's lack of response as outfoxing Obama (getting the best of Obama specifically; he's played the US pretty hard).  

I'm adjacently curious if those exalting over the idea that he just bested Obama are under the impression that the Angry Yam isn't a painfully easy target that will be mercilessly played by Putin?

[Commodore]

1 minute ago, butterbumps! said:

I'm struggling to understand why people see Obama's passing sanctions on Russia as "petulant,"

it seems like a reactionary replacement for a lack of any long term strategic vision for Russia

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, butterbumps! said:

I'm struggling to understand why people see Obama's passing sanctions on Russia as "petulant," and why some see Putin's lack of response as outfoxing Obama (getting the best of Obama specifically; he's played the US pretty hard).  

Because Putin doing nothing and actually being magnanimous about this shows this for the toothless annoyance that it is. The sanctions aren't anything particularly affecting to Russia at large, and expelling some diplomats doesn't harm Russia all that much either. Because it was done via an executive order it can be reversed, easily. The only value that this action could have had beyond signalling to allies is the hope that Russia would overreact and cause relations with the US to worsen, but instead it'll almost certainly cause relations to improve. 

It also gives Putin the opportunity to be the more nice guy and get sympathy in a cheap way. 

1 minute ago, butterbumps! said:

I'm adjacently curious if those exalting over the idea that he just bested Obama are under the impression that the Angry Yam isn't a painfully easy target that will be mercilessly played by Putin?

Trump is going to be absurdly played by Putin, and that's assuming that Putin doesn't have Kompromat on him. At this point, as far as I can tell Putin is going to get basically everything he wants - sanctions lifted, drilling rights improved, access to the Ukraine/Syria/Baltics - and the US in return is going to get nothing at all. 

Like I said above, I think Obama was trying desperately to do something, and he's willing to tarnish his image in order to try - even if it won't do a whole lot. 

[butterbumps!]

Just now, Commodore said:

it seems like a reactionary replacement for a lack of any long term strategic vision for Russia

 

Just now, Kalbear said:

Because Putin doing nothing and actually being magnanimous about this shows this for the toothless annoyance that it is. The sanctions aren't anything particularly affecting to Russia at large, and expelling some diplomats doesn't harm Russia all that much either. Because it was done via an executive order it can be reversed, easily. The only value that this action could have had beyond signalling to allies is the hope that Russia would overreact and cause relations with the US to worsen, but instead it'll almost certainly cause relations to improve. 

It also gives Putin the opportunity to be the more nice guy and get sympathy in a cheap way. 

but how was Obama supposed to react to this?   Pretend it didn't happen and do nothing?   Give Putin a stern lecture?   Nuke Moscow?   I get that Putin outmaneuvered the US by backing us into a corner in terms of being able to effectively condemn their interference -- Obama can't do much as the outgoing, and Trump cannot admit interference since it delegitimizes his win.   I just can't see Obama's response as "petulant" or similar.

I'm also not sure the desired reaction would be for Russia to overreact.  Why would anyone think they would?  Putin's orange manservant is taking over in 3 weeks, and the two of them have been playing public footsie for all the world to see.    When the sanctions news broke, before Putin gave a (non)reaction, I figured he'd just talk over Obama to address his manbaby.   

[Savannah]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Commodore,

Putin inavded and successfully annexed a large chunk of a neighboring nation.  Then sponsored a proxy war in the same nation making a play for even more territory.  That's not a "paper tiger".

The paper tiger is obviously the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances. 

Wikipedia; 

" The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances refers to three identical political agreements signed at the OSCE conference in Budapest, Hungary on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories relating to Belarus's, Kazakhstan's and Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The Memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents.[1]

The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan."

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

59 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Not really. Ryan and Rubio both came out and said they want more sanctions, as did McCain and Graham - but the first two are going to roll over on Trump as soon as they have to, and Trump doesn't need or want McCain or Graham. And Trump doesn't care if you say things as long as you go along with him later - which Ryan and Rubio absolutely will do. 

I have more faith in Rubio than you I guess, but Ryan will cave a lot. That said, I'm of the belief that if Trump missteps too many times, enough Republicans will finally find their backbones. Or at least I hope so.

9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Trump is going to be absurdly played by Putin, and that's assuming that Putin doesn't have Kompromat on him. At this point, as far as I can tell Putin is going to get basically everything he wants - sanctions lifted, drilling rights improved, access to the Ukraine/Syria/Baltics - and the US in return is going to get nothing at all. 

But Trump makes the best deals. He's totally going to get Vlad to bomb Vanity Fair! 

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, butterbumps! said:

but how was Obama supposed to react to this?   Pretend it didn't happen and do nothing?   Give Putin a stern lecture?   Nuke Moscow?   I get that Putin outmaneuvered the US by backing us into a corner in terms of being able to effectively condemn their interference -- Obama can't do much as the outgoing, and Trump cannot admit interference since it delegitimizes his win.   I just can't see Obama's response as "petulant" or similar.

Probably the best thing that he could have tried to do would be to get Republicans and Democrats together - earlier - and work out some laws to pass to actually give the sanctions some teeth. This is oddly what a number of Republicans have wanted and stated publicly that they will pursue. If this were done in October, quickly, it could have had a lasting impact. 

It's petulant because it is ineffective and petty. Especially when Putin comes right back and says 'yeah, we don't care about you because you're gone in 25 days and we can talk to a real grown up'. 

1 minute ago, butterbumps! said:

I'm also not sure the desired reaction would be for Russia to overreact.  Why would anyone think they would?  Putin's orange manservant is taking over in 3 weeks, and the two of them have been playing public footsie for all the world to see.    When the sanctions news broke, before Putin gave a (non)reaction, I figured he'd just talk over Obama to address his manbaby.   

Well, early statements by Russia seemed to indicate that they might overreact - there was talk of reciprocal actions on US diplomats yesterday. I think that you're right - that it was a slim hope that they would - but that is the only reasonable positive outcome that I can see from this. Otherwise - what's the point? A sternly worded letter that doesn't do anything and doesn't cause any actual action? How does Obama's actions dissuade Russia from doing this again? How does Obama's actions cause any lasting repercussions save helping Trump and Putin?

 

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I have more faith in Rubio than you I guess, but Ryan will cave a lot. That said, I'm of the belief that if Trump missteps too many times, enough Republicans will finally find their backbones. Or at least I hope so.

How many times are Republicans going to pull that football out from you before you realize otherwise? Chaffetz, for instance, went out after the pussygrabbing and said he'd never vote for Trump because he couldn't look his daughter in the eye - and then three weeks later said he'd vote for Trump. Ryan gave Trump all sorts of shit, and all that happened was that Ryan's polling cratered. Romney got to go to a nice romantic dinner. Cruz manned the phone banks. There is no limit to how much of  Trump's dick they are going to take down their throat provided that Trump is winning. 

If Trump missteps too much and loses then sure, they'll find their backbone. Until then, he's the leader of the Republicans and all Republicans owe him their loyalty and respect, especially as he won. 

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But Trump makes the best deals. He's totally going to get Vlad to bomb Vanity Fair! 

My suspicion is the deal he'll be doing is basically 'please don't publish the blackmail material and I'll do whatever'. 

[sToNED_CAT]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

To call Putin a "paper tiger totally dependent on oil prices" is laughable. Oil prices have been at historic lows over the last couple of years and yet in this time Putin has reclaimed Crimea, wreaked havoc with the West's plans in Ukraine, and taken control of the Syrian war.

Russian economy still has sever problems and in few years they might not have power to do these thengs anymore...

13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Trump is going to be absurdly played by Putin, and that's assuming that Putin doesn't have Kompromat on him. At this point, as far as I can tell Putin is going to get basically everything he wants - sanctions lifted, drilling rights improved, access to the Ukraine/Syria/Baltics - and the US in return is going to get nothing at all.

Putin has absolutely no reson to go to Baltic.

and US is getting absolutely nothing at all from whole current situation anyway - if prowestern forces in Ukraine prevail, Ukraine will join EU and US won't benefit in any way. Had anti Assad rebel forces won in Syria against Assad and Russians the result would have been islamist state (or at best fractured country like Lebanon) not favorable to US anyway - again no gain. The whole fucking conflict with Russians has been pointless detour, with little potential for US to gain anything either economically or politically. US should concentrate on real problems/threats - China, North Korea, islamic terrorism and Iran.

[Wrl6199]

7 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Probably the best thing that he could have tried to do would be to get Republicans and Democrats together - earlier - and work out some laws to pass to actually give the sanctions some teeth. This is oddly what a number of Republicans have wanted and stated publicly that they will pursue. If this were done in October, quickly, it could have had a lasting impact. 

It's petulant because it is ineffective and petty. Especially when Putin comes right back and says 'yeah, we don't care about you because you're gone in 25 days and we can talk to a real grown up'. 

Well, early statements by Russia seemed to indicate that they might overreact - there was talk of reciprocal actions on US diplomats yesterday. I think that you're right - that it was a slim hope that they would - but that is the only reasonable positive outcome that I can see from this. Otherwise - what's the point? A sternly worded letter that doesn't do anything and doesn't cause any actual action? How does Obama's actions dissuade Russia from doing this again? How does Obama's actions cause any lasting repercussions save helping Trump and Putin?

 

Good luck doing that. I mean for trump and his cabinet. Democrats and even some republicans vehemently went after him more so then most republican candidates. I am not so sure what trump would do about passing laws though. Seems like now that hes actually won hes more for compromising.