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you have an intense and magical relationship with the books, when was your first "fight"?


chuck norris 42

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Total and absolute immersion in a work of fiction is a wonderful thing,
However the spell can get broken which is a shame 
 I assume this happens to most readers because the books are so long

My "honeymoon" with the series ended with ADWD, It had way too much Magic

In my defence GRRM sort of understands my viewpoint , He did consider having no overt magic 

To be more precise he said  

"The dragons were one aspect that I did consider not including. Very early in the process, I was debating, should I do this just as like historical fiction about fake history, and have no actually overt magic or magical elements, but -- my friend Phyllis Eisenstein, a wonderful fantasy writer who lives here in Chicago, I happened to be talking to her at very early stage in the process. Phyllis has written some great fantasies herself. She said, "Nah, you have to have dragons. It's a fantasy, you know!" And I dedicated A Storm of Swords to Phyllis, who made me put the dragons in, and I think that was the right thing to do. "

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/game-of-thrones-season-3-characters_n_1854918

Refer to 47:50 of the podcast 

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Although this has to do with the show it is very interesting to hear Martin speak Thanks. Exposition. It is basically a conversation about the books.

http://talkingtvwithryanandryan.libsyn.com/webpage/talking-tv-with-ryan-and-ryan-episode-12-talking-power-magic-and-storytelling-with-george-r-r-martin

 

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I love the books, and so I have few complaints, but any sex scenes would have been my first fight (with the possible exceptions of Cat and Ned and Jon and Ygritte). I just do not think GRRM is very good at writing sex scenes, even if the rest of the writing is brilliant.

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Not sure I've had a "fight" with the series exactly, but I have to say the first absolutely gut-wrenching, ready-to-throw-the-book-at-the-wall moment I had was when I thought Theon had killed Bran and Rickon. I knew about Ned's death in advance so that didn't have the same impact on me. 

 

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My main conflict with the book is that it's has too much focus on the nobility. For a book which is overt about social issues I find this unbearable. With the exception of Davos and few Prologue/Epilogue chapters. there no PoV who doesn't belong to the aristocracy.  I also find the whole 'House' issues actually boring and I haven't even bother to give a look to the Appendices describing the family trees.

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1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

My main conflict with the book is that it's has too much focus on the nobility. For a book which is overt about social issues I find this unbearable. With the exception of Davos and few Prologue/Epilogue chapters. there no PoV who doesn't belong to the aristocracy.  I also find the whole 'House' issues actually boring and I haven't even bother to give a look to the Appendices describing the family trees.

It has to focus on the noble class because the series is about the never-ending struggle for power, which is a game for the powerful.  I do like the smaller stories the series tells, too, like the Brienne chapter about Nimble Dick.  Brienne's chapters in general are about telling smaller stories. (And a lot of readers hate them.)

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The lack of fleshed out fictional languages (especially compared to LotR), combined with the fact that apparently the common tongue has always been the same for thousands of years, is pretty much the only complaint I can think of. And that's a small one. All others would be even smaller nitpicks. The books are perfect.

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My first read I was so confused with some of the POV titles in Feast and Dance.

The Soiled Knight, The Iron Captain, The Reaver, The Drowned Man, The Queenmaker, The Kraken's Daughter, Cat of the Canals, The Princess in the Tower, Alayne, The Merchant's Man, The Lost Lord, The Windblown, The Watcher, The Turncloak, The King's Prize, A Ghost in Winterfell, The Queensgaurd, The Iron Suitor, The Discarded Knight, The Blind Girl, The Spurned Suitor, The Griffin Reborn, The Sacrifice, The Ugly Little Girl, The Kingbreaker, The Dragontamer, and The Queen's Hand. 

During my first read Feast and Dance took a little longer than they should have because I always had to stop and think, "who is this?"

Look at that list! It was very vexing for me.

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The sheer number of characters was overwhelming as I listen rather than read.   Fortunately the Lannisters were the 1st really identifiable accents (?) for me so I understood that horrible queen and her miserable brother tried to kill Bran, who I also understood was just a little boy.   I didn't enjoy the story at all on 1st read (listen).   It was a friend's continued drilling about the mysteries and ultimately the swords that made me come back and actually fall in love.    I've read a few chapters as I had to buy the e-books to get my app to work.   They are riveting and I resent interruptions when I'm actually reading, but I can't even imagine how hard it had to be to actually read these books from the get go.   

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16 hours ago, A Bong of Ice and Fire said:

It has to focus on the noble class because the series is about the never-ending struggle for power, which is a game for the powerful.  I do like the smaller stories the series tells, too, like the Brienne chapter about Nimble Dick.  Brienne's chapters in general are about telling smaller stories. (And a lot of readers hate them.)

Game that of course only the noble class played and in our history neither slaves, common folk, priests, scholars or merchants never had any role whatsoever. As women barely had, isn't it? Then why a good fraction of PoV chapters are dedicated to women and even children?

We have fortunately Brienne and Arya (as well as many other PoVs bits) giving us glimpses of suffering of the common folk, but still from a nobility PoV, which will be always biased. Except for Davos, which is why is my favorite PoV.

Happy new year!

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Not really a fight, but I have tried to explain many times to people that while the books do have plenty of sex in them, they also have a ton of food. The show never explores (for obvious reasons) the delights of feast descriptions found in the story.

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The DWDFFC debacle, as of now we are still separated.

Especially Daenerys "playing Queen" at Mereen.

4 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Game that of course only the noble class played and in our history neither slaves, common folk, priests, scholars or merchants never had any role whatsoever. As women barely had, isn't it? Then why a good fraction of PoV chapters are dedicated to women and even children?

We have fortunately Brienne and Arya (as well as many other PoVs bits) giving us glimpses of suffering of the common folk, but still from a nobility PoV, which will be always biased. Except for Davos, which is why is my favorite PoV.

 

Please don't get this question the wrong way, but whenever somebody points out a perceived flaw in something, I will ask what they would do to improve it. I don't mean to be rude by doing so, it's just the way I was raised.

So what would be your answer for a POV from the common folk? And what would it bring to the table?

What story would, let's say, a farmer in the Riverlands, have to say that would contribute to the overall story? Would it just not be the same overall story again and again about how helpless they are in the war and how horrible things happen to them and everyone around them with them being unable to do anything about it?

it's not fun to follow a character who is truly impotent and who has little to no chance to ever get into a position where they will even get the tiniest bit of self-determination, that's something not even Sansa during her most helpless phase was reduced to. 

And really, if, by some strike of fate, these ordinary people in ASoIaF do attain potency to shape their fate and become people that would be interesting to read about...well then they usually stop becoming ordinary people and tend to enter either the world of aristocracy (like Davos and Mellisandre, don't forget our former slave girl!) or outlaws and so are also seperated from the plight of the "common wo/man".

Of the "noteworthy" non-nobleborn characters (that don't have chapters already) I can think of only Gendry really strikes me as someone who contribute much to the story as it is. Jon's Night's Watch brothers  are, well, members of the Night's Watch and would be redundant with him and Sam around, Missandei is the personal assistant to a queen and would be redundant due to Daenerys and Selmy. Bronn has married into nobility and would also be redundant. Strong Bellwas or Greyworm would be so annoying with their stupid way of speaking (and probably thinking) that it would implode the series. Even Gendry isn't exactly an "ordinary"man anymore, but has joined with magical outlaws.

ASoIaF isn't really the kind of narrative where the farmer's son/daughter sets out and makes their fortune. It's the kind where the farmer's son/daughter sets out, is debased in the worst possible ways and then ends up in an unmarked grave.

It might not be "true" commoners, but a lot of the noble POVs have been reduced to low status; Arya, Tyrion, Jon, Sam, they all got their taste of what it's like to exist without the fortune or status provided by their families, even Sansa does get some idea what it is like to be a (noble) bastard as opposed to be the trueborn daughter of a Lord Paramount. And I do think the glimpses several POVs offer us into the suffering of the populace are sufficient to get the point across. Heaping lament after lament from "Riverland Peasant Woman #6" on top of that would be over-emphasizing the subject matter. 

2 hours ago, Joey Crows said:

Not really a fight, but I have tried to explain many times to people that while the books do have plenty of sex in them, they also have a ton of food. The show never explores (for obvious reasons) the delights of feast descriptions found in the story.

Because those endless lists of foodstuff are rather repetitive? What are they supposed to do with it on the show; have the camera pan over each dish while Cersei describes them in a voice over?

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28 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Please don't get this question the wrong way, but whenever somebody points out a perceived flaw in something, I will ask what they would do to improve it. I don't mean to be rude by doing so, it's just the way I was raised.

You are not being rude, don't worry. Of course the thematic was chosen by the author and he is in his complete rights to give it the direction he chooses. We can at best complain and I was just answering the question of the OP. Saying this, I truly appreciate that the author made an effort in putting a range of diverse PoV, including many female. He could have chosen not to do it and the book may have been more realistic (under some historical criteria) but certainly would have lost a lot of appeal and flavor. This lost of flavor is what I feel  with the excessive (IMHO) focus in nobility.

As I said, I'm hardly interested in the family trees detailed in the appendix, with the exception of the morbid Freys.

As answering your question

37 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

What story would, let's say, a farmer in the Riverlands, have to say that would contribute to the overall story? Would it just not be the same overall story again and again about how helpless they are in the war and how horrible things happen to them and everyone around them with them being unable to do anything about it?

That farmer in the RLs could have joined TBWB after the Mountain killed his family and take an important role within. It could have given us a glimpse of the workings of the outlaws and what keep them together, how the rebellion progresses and degrades, etc.

40 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

it's not fun to follow a character who is truly impotent and who has little to no chance to ever get into a position where they will even get the tiniest bit of self-determination, that's something not even Sansa during her most helpless phase was reduced to.

Not necessarily. Imagine a merchant in King Landing, a maester in a lesser house, a sailor in some merchant ship, even a prostitute. describing what he/she hears of the war, the shifting powers, the rumors and prophesies and describes his/her fears and how things are turning to worse. One doesn't need too many chapters to achieve a good impression and I would gladly exchange some Arya or Sansa chapters for that*

52 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Of the "noteworthy" non-nobleborn characters (that don't have chapters already) I can think of only Gendry really strikes me as someone who contribute much to the story as it is. Jon's Night's Watch brothers  are, well, members of the Night's Watch and would be redundant with him and Sam around, Missandei is the personal assistant to a queen and would be redundant due to Daenerys and Selmy. Bronn has married into nobility and would also be redundant. Strong Bellwas or Greyworm would be so annoying with their stupid way of speaking (and probably thinking) that it would implode the series. Even Gendry isn't exactly an "ordinary"man anymore, but has joined with magical outlaws.
 

Indeed Gendry could have been a excellent PoV, and this is the point of my complain, ordinary people taking key roles in the story, think on Sam of the LoTR!

I agree that Belwas and Greyworm would have been completely unappealing but Missandei would have greatly complement to the nerve challenging Daenerys chapters or the (almost) purely descriptive Barristan ones. For example, what Missandei is learning from these old scrolls she is reading?

This leads me to another grudge with the book. In general the Essosi plot is rather clumsy compared with the intricate stories of the Riverlands or the North. I blame GRRM familiarity with some literature. And I must say I like Essos more than Westeros. Think for example in Volantis, with its enormous contradictions like the mixing of an advance form of governance and the inhuman slavery. I would really like to have a PoV there.

1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

ASoIaF isn't really the kind of narrative where the farmer's son/daughter sets out and makes their fortune. It's the kind where the farmer's son/daughter sets out, is debased in the worst possible ways and then ends up in an unmarked grave.

This was the author choice and why I had the 'first fight' as the PoV asked, because I think there is enough narrative space to allow more development of 'outsiders'

1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

It might not be "true" commoners, but a lot of the noble POVs have been reduced to low status; Arya, Tyrion, Jon, Sam, they all got their taste of what it's like to exist without the fortune or status provided by their families, even Sansa does get some idea what it is like to be a (noble) bastard as opposed to be the trueborn daughter of a Lord Paramount. And I do think the glimpses several POVs offer us into the suffering of the populace are sufficient to get the point across.

None of these PoV truly renounce to their names and the status that comes with them. The FM couldn't take Arya Stark out of her no more than Littlefinger could do it with Sansa.

The problem is not only with showing us the suffering of the common folk. It is that the book proposes (again IMHO) that only nobles can take an active role in creating or combating the said suffering. This is wrong!

 

 

* I liked a lot Arya chapters, not so Sansa's, some of which I skipped completely (my own bias) until I read the last Alayne tWoW chapter prompting me to re-read everything about Sansa.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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My first "throw the book at the wall" (I read on my iPad so that's never actually going to happen) was when Arya drank the poison that made her blind.  I had to stop reading for a day or so.  Hadn't that kid suffered enough?  In the end I asked someone who'd finished the series to tell me without spoiling too much, and she just said "keep reading".

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On 31/12/2016 at 8:41 PM, Scootaloo Stark said:

The lack of fleshed out fictional languages (especially compared to LotR), combined with the fact that apparently the common tongue has always been the same for thousands of years, is pretty much the only complaint I can think of. And that's a small one. All others would be even smaller nitpicks. The books are perfect.

Actually that would be pretty awesome if it was included. I'd really like to learn more about the Old tongue and it seems to have quite a bit of significance story wise (along with High Valyrian I think)

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5 minutes ago, Lifestream said:

Actually that would be pretty awesome if it was included. I'd really like to learn more about the Old tongue and it seems to have quite a bit of significance story wise (along with High Valyrian I think)

Yes, but the the thing I was complaining about is that the Common Tongue stayed the same over thousands of years, on a huge continent. So did the Old Tongue, I guess. All while Valyrian had some minor development into the Free City languages in a much shorter time.

But I've accepted that Grrm is less interested in this than I am.

Also, now that I think about it, technology and other things didn't chamge much over thousands of years either, so at least it's consistent :laugh:

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On 31.12.2016 at 4:00 PM, rotting sea cow said:

My main conflict with the book is that it's has too much focus on the nobility. For a book which is overt about social issues I find this unbearable. With the exception of Davos and few Prologue/Epilogue chapters. there no PoV who doesn't belong to the aristocracy.  I also find the whole 'House' issues actually boring and I haven't even bother to give a look to the Appendices describing the family trees.

Indeed. That was one of my main issues with the series early on when I began reading it. I asked the people who had referring me to it why the hell I should care what stupid would-be royal would sit on that ugly throne and what noble (family) would dominate the government behind the scenes?

I was under the impression I was reading some fantasy series.

I got eventually sucked into the game of thrones portion of the story considering that I originally found the travelogue chapters (especially of Jon, Arya & Bran in ACoK and ASoS) incredibly boring during the first reading and the Tyrion, Sansa, Catelyn, Dany, and Davos chapter gave us insight into the actual action/plot.

But I'm with you that the fact that we essentially only have important (en)noble(d) POV characters is a mistake. There certainly would have been enough space in the series to give us a commoner POV on commoner life. Perhaps a septon or even a POV of some humble Kingslander who gives us a commoner perspective on the events in the capital.

Davos has humble origins but he is now a knight and a lord, too. The only commoner POV we still have is actually Areo Hotah, and his exotic Norvoshi origins make the reader easily enough overlook that and focus on different things.

It seems that the commoners come more to the fore in AFfC/ADwD (with the sparrow movement) as well as in the history of the Seven Kingdoms (with the role the riots in KL played during Storming of the Dragonpit; not to mention the Dunk & Egg stories) but the original setup of the story really greatly downplayed the role of the common people.

In the real middle ages the common people clearly were a powerful faction in their own right, mostly expressing their wishes in bloody revolts and riots. The kind of docile sheep-like commoners we get in some of the books is actually not a very accurate portrayal of medieval life.

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