COFT and the song of ice and fire

[thewolfofStarfall]

I want to discuss an intriguing premise as to why the children of the forest created the white walkers aka the Others. This idea came to me via a Yotube comment which I will quote below.

 

Quote

My personal theory as to why the Children created the Others is that it's all down to the matter of balance. The Children's own name for themselves, in the True Tongue translates as "those who sing the song of earth". Considering the title of the whole series is all about songs of "elements", ie. Ice and Fire, I think this is of some relevance. If we look to the legends surrounding the "Deep Ones" they seem to hint that the Children are not the only primordial race to have inhabited this world. It seems not implausible that the "Deep Ones" might have been, or still be, "those who sing the song of water". Perhaps, for millennia, the world was in a state of balance between the "elements" of earth and water, each having their representative race of "singers": "A Song of Earth and Water". Then along come the First Men. I think it's worth noting that they didn't simply cut down the weirwoods: they burned them. If the Children came to regard Men as "those who sing the song of fire", this would have led to an imbalance in the world, since there was no direct counterpart to this new "song". Perhaps, given their age-long pre-eminence as far as the world above the waves was concerned, they saw themselves as having some kind of role as custodians of the world, in which case, it would fall to them to restore balance. They may have been powerful, but not perhaps, capable of creating a new form of life themselves. What they could do, however, was take the raw materials (Men) and from them create a counterpart: "those who sing the song of ice". As you suggest, the long period after the Pact was likely spent working towards this end, and once they were ready, the Others came to be. Things haven't exactly gone to plan though, but the Children are nothing if not patient. So what might this mean for the series as a whole? Well, I think it's worth noting that the title is "A Song...." - singular. This may imply that Fire and Ice are not separate songs, but equal and opposite facets of the one song. If current events are the Children's long-term plan coming to a head, it may be that, rather than being an account of the conflict between Ice and Fire, a battle to be won by one side or the other, we've actually been witnessing the Children's creation of a balanced and sustainable "Song of Ice and Fire". Given what we know of Martin's views on ecological balance and war, I think this is far more likely as an overall theme for the series than a straightforward conflict that will end in victory for one side and defeat for the other.

I find it interesting that according this theory, the title "A Song of Ice and Fire" wouldn't necessarily be referring to a conflict between white walkers and dragons (at least not exclusively), but rather a conflict between the white walkers and mankind. This would imply that humanity as a whole represents fire, not exclusively dragons or Targaryens. This makes a lot sense to me. Many people have the idea that ice and fire represent extreme forces  that are two sides of the same coin, and perhaps these elements need to balanced rather than one defeating the other. However, so far in the series white walkers and dragons have never come in contact with each other. If they do later on, dragons will likely be used as a tool for humans to defeat the white walkers. This sinister ice zombie race is trying to extinguish mankind, so it would seem we are what represent fire to them. Futhermore, this premise leads to interesting implications about the inspiration behind the series title. Martin said he got the idea for the title in part from the Robert Frost poem "Fire and Ice ":

Some say the world will end in fire, 
Some say in ice. 
From what I’ve tasted of desire 
I hold with those who favor fire. 
But if it had to perish twice, 
I think I know enough of hate 
To say that for destruction ice 
Is also great 
And would suffice

So, since fire and ice are destructive forces that are two sides of the of the same coin, like ying and yang; perhaps the white walkers are a manifestation of the hatred in man's heart, and the humans in the series are manifestations of their own desires and greed. The fire side of humanity is essentially potrayed in the "game of thrones", that takes place in King's Landing and throughout the nobility of Westeros, while the white walkers coming from the North to  annihilate human life are the ice. Furthermore, this fire and ice dynamic is seen in the war between the children of the forest and the First Men. The COFT were victims of human colonial greed as they witnessed their sacred weirwood trees being cut down and burned (fire), so they created WMD for revenge (ice). When you think about it, the Others are essentially mankind's alter ego, representing hatred and evil in the hearts of humans. After all, they were humans once. 

[Wm Portnoy]

I would look more towards Martin's other works to find clues than the show.  The show is its own beast and it's basically gone its own way.

Tuff Voyaging - Concern for the environment and the balance between the population and the resources.  Overpopulation destroys the environment.  Respect for life.  Balance human interests while protecting the environment.

Mother Nature knows how to keep everything in balance.  Its when humans make a technological leap to serve its needs that throws nature out of balance.  Technological progress enables humans to exploit natural resources faster.  Its bad.  The Others are harmful to this balance if they were created by the children.  I assume they are not a created species in the books.  They are just a part of nature that helps to maintain balance.  Nature is harsh and she is not concerned about the welfare of the individual and she is willing to trim populations to maintain a sustainable balance. 

I believe the role of the white walkers in the books is to periodically reduce the human population.  Fire and ice are nature's tools to accomplish this task.  They have other tools as well like diseases.  Climate change allows the white walkers to enter the south and bring death. 

Spoiler

In Tuf Voyaging, a race of people called the Suthlamese practice a religion of procreation.  Their religion forbids birth control.  The population is fast approaching the planet's resources getting depleted.  Tuf buys them some time but ultimately, the answer is to reduce the population and harsh measures will be required.

 

[Curled Finger]

This assumes the show version of The Others origin is accurate.  If HBO has the truth of it then right on.  

I can't help but assume The Others are an entirely separate species from the COTF and humans based on GRRM's description of them.   The Sidhe were supposed to be their own life form independent of humans.   Not made by humans or elves or fairies, but their own distinct species.  

I think if the COTF really could create a terrible weapon such as The Others, who command the dead in conjunction with their own magical command of dreams and terra firma, there would be no descendants of the 1st Men in the North at any rate.   The 1st Men & Children fought forever then agreed to fight no more.  They drew up a plan both sides agreed to.  They took to their places and even shared gods and weirwood.  There was no reason for the Children to make a weapon after the pact.   It's downright fortuitous that there was peace between Men and The Children when The Others made their first real appearance.   If the COTF hadn't aided The Last Hero all would have been lost to the cold darkness.  

If The Others were created why assume they were created by the COTF?  The 1st 1st Men were powerfully magical on their own.  Red Kings, Warg Kings, Barrow Kings and Marsh Kings had powers of necromancy, skinchanging and telepathy that we know of.   There is evidence of geothermal destruction as well as impact from outer space.   There are many alternate scenarios to The Others' origins.   

[Dorian Martell's son]

I doubt the children created the white walkers. They have the power to defeat them with fire and obsidian. Simple really. This knowledge is never lost due to the weirnet. 
It seems far more likely that the others are an ancient enemy of the children. The children represent the earth and life and warmth as you stated in the quote. The others represent death and cold. The others invasion, like a king tide, earthquake or really harsh winter happen  from time to time, and in the past the children and their obsidian weapons had little trouble driving them back. After the first men cut down the weirwoods and killed many children, there was no one left to fight the others. That is why the last hero had to seek out the children and learn their magic and secrets to defeat the next others invasion  

[Orphalesion]

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

  The Sidhe were supposed to be their own life form independent of humans.   Not made by humans or elves or fairies, but their own distinct species.  

Nope. The Sidhe or Aos Si/Deone Sidhe/Fair Folk/People of the Mounds/Good Neighbours literally are the Fairies that populate Gaelic mythology. They are a mixture of the spirits of the dead, half-remembered gods and nature spirits of any kind.

Sidhe is a term like "Youkai" describing any kind of non-devine supernatural creature.

Fairies was the name they were given later under English influence.

Elves are beings originating in Germanic Mythology that often fill the same niches as the Sidhe.

Do not confuse 20th/21st century fantasy literature or DnD with folktales.

[Greywater-Watch]

21 hours ago, thewolfofStarfall said:

I find it interesting that according this theory, the title "A Song of Ice and Fire" wouldn't necessarily be referring to a conflict between white walkers and dragons (at least not exclusively), but rather a conflict between the white walkers and mankind.

Interesting theory. I recently read a line though (in "The Hedge Knight"): "The summers have been shorter since the last dragon died, and the winters longer and crueler." The balance of the seasons thus is linked directly to dragons.

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Nope. The Sidhe or Aos Si/Deone Sidhe/Fair Folk/People of the Mounds/Good Neighbours literally are the Fairies that populate Gaelic mythology. They are a mixture of the spirits of the dead, half-remembered gods and nature spirits of any kind.

Sidhe is a term like "Youkai" describing any kind of non-devine supernatural creature.

Fairies was the name they were given later under English influence.

Elves are beings originating in Germanic Mythology that often fill the same niches as the Sidhe.

Do not confuse 20th/21st century fantasy literature or DnD with folktales.

Wow.   I really did confuse Sidhe origins.   I thank you for the correction and the short lesson.   I would be interested in your thoughts on what The others are or how they came about.   This alternate portrayal of the origins of The others is still very dubious in my opinion.   

[Orphalesion]

On 01/01/2017 at 5:55 PM, Curled Finger said:

Wow.   I really did confuse Sidhe origins.   I thank you for the correction and the short lesson.   I would be interested in your thoughts on what The others are or how they came about.   This alternate portrayal of the origins of The others is still very dubious in my opinion.   

Hey, sorry for the late reply, was very busy (January...just January....)

Well, I agree that we can't take the Show canon for granted just yet.

But if we follow the idea of Sidhe then there's a lot of possibilities.

Consider that one part of the beings that made up the Sidhe were either dead spirits or spirits associated with death or both; Banshee (Bain Sidhe = literally "Woman of the Sidhe/Fairy Woman") the Dullahan, the Cu-Sith (the fairy dog), the list goes on and goes right up to the Morrgain.

And also that they often were associated with seasons or the passing of seasons. Spring and summer was when the more benign kinds of Sidhe were more abundant, winter was when the more harmful ones reigned.

So we could really through everything together and say the Children and the Others are different kinds of the same thing, one for summer and one for winter, one for life (protecting and nurturing plants) one for death (creating Wights)

But seeing as the Children can even sink whole lands beneath the sea, I can see them being able to create the Others and the Wights and losing control of them.

Or maybe the Others are a rouge group of the children that transformed themselves with magic.  

[kissdbyfire]

21 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Hey, sorry for the late reply, was very busy (January...just January....)

Well, I agree that we can't take the Show canon for granted just yet.

But if we follow the idea of Sidhe then there's a lot of possibilities.

Consider that one part of the beings that made up the Sidhe were either dead spirits or spirits associated with death or both; Banshee (Bain Sidhe = literally "Woman of the Sidhe/Fairy Woman") the Dullahan, the Cu-Sith (the fairy dog), the list goes on and goes right up to the Morrgain.

And also that they often were associated with seasons or the passing of seasons. Spring and summer was when the more benign kinds of Sidhe were more abundant, winter was when the more harmful ones reigned.

So we could really through everything together and say the Children and the Others are different kinds of the same thing, one for summer and one for winter, one for life (protecting and nurturing plants) one for death (creating Wights)

But seeing as the Children can even sink whole lands beneath the sea, I can see them being able to create the Others and the Wights and losing control of them.

Or maybe the Others are a rouge group of the children that transformed themselves with magic.  

That's one of the theories I think are more likely to be correct, at least partially. But what doesn't make sense to me in this scenario is, why would they transform themselves into something that looks like men much more than it does their 'original model'? 

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Hey, sorry for the late reply, was very busy (January...just January....)

Well, I agree that we can't take the Show canon for granted just yet.

But if we follow the idea of Sidhe then there's a lot of possibilities.

Consider that one part of the beings that made up the Sidhe were either dead spirits or spirits associated with death or both; Banshee (Bain Sidhe = literally "Woman of the Sidhe/Fairy Woman") the Dullahan, the Cu-Sith (the fairy dog), the list goes on and goes right up to the Morrgain.

And also that they often were associated with seasons or the passing of seasons. Spring and summer was when the more benign kinds of Sidhe were more abundant, winter was when the more harmful ones reigned.

So we could really through everything together and say the Children and the Others are different kinds of the same thing, one for summer and one for winter, one for life (protecting and nurturing plants) one for death (creating Wights)

But seeing as the Children can even sink whole lands beneath the sea, I can see them being able to create the Others and the Wights and losing control of them.

Or maybe the Others are a rouge group of the children that transformed themselves with magic.  

It has been an especially wickedly busy start of the year--you get a pass and I'm surprised (and very pleased) you remembered to answer.  I've been in some distracting conversations lately.  I'm glad you brought up the COTF being able and willing to be destructive.   They do have a nasty streak.  Spirits of the dead are not the same as spirits associated with death.  If you have a moment to clarify if a spirit associated with death is like a harbinger or something completely different I'd be interested to know.  Thanks for offering up the part about the Sidhe's association with the seasons. I remember watching the scene of the White Walker being created and thinking this is great.   I love this...for the story HBO is telling.   For our beloved books I require something else.   COTF gone rogue isn't bad.  Spirits of the dead Kings of Winter isn't bad, either.  But what if the history is misleading like so much else in the story?   We are told there were originally the COTF and Giants; we aren't told where the 1st Men come from and there were definitely no Valyrians.  Ice and Fire, fire and ice...we have a skewered timeline and very few answers about anything including whether the Starks had any magical powers exclusive to their family.  We are led to believe the Starks were engineered by virtue of conquest and marriage into at least 4 powerful magic families.   The Starks ultimately became known as the Kings of Winter.   Not Red Warg Kings of the Marsh Barrow, just Kings of Winter.  Likewise, the Valyrians appear to be engineered as well.  The COTF seem to have an earth vibe about them more than ice or fire.   I don't have enough intel about the Giants to get a handle on their part in early Westeros.  If we knew what the Others wanted we could figure out what they are.

That was a really nice quick explanation of the Sidhe.   Thanks so much for coming back to the conversation.   

[Bran's Legs]

This is a great thread. The COTF have a long relationship with the Stark family, so I don't think that can be discounted. Did they not help Bran the Builder construct a huge wall of ice to protect the world from the Others? The modern-day Bran is camping out with the COTF in weirnet central, and he's most likely headed back to that wall eventually. Keeping it very simple, the Starks' words are "Winter is Coming" — a harbinger if I've ever heard one.

[Macgregor of the North]

With the revelation from the mummers adaption, i personally think that instead of this theory being looked upon as Canon, we should instead take it as proof we can look to the origin of the Others being different. They have taken that story their own direction completely and value short visually pleasing scenes that last a matter of seconds rather than actual real lengthy interesting detailed deep descriptiobns as to why something came to be. Im not hating, that is the nature of a screen adaption. Books, thankfully are so so different with an abundance of resources and time to describe something in a much deeper satisfying way.

As the quote you left states, its all down to the matter of balance, and i agree.

GRRM has described the Others and Dragons as Ice and Fire in this story in an interview. I believe both species creation/evolution is linked and came about from the same event and their coming into the world is intertwined as a balance, but things are all out of balance at the moment. Having the Others and the Dragons in the world hasnt done it any favours and they are not a solution to the threat the opposite side poses, they are both a nightmare for the world.

As to the Cotf/singers involvement in how the Others came to be, of course that cant be ruled out. But it need not be how it was shown on screen and it need not even be that they purposefully created a species of killers with the sole purpose of extinguishing the race of men. That sounds entirely too much like the Dark lords that GRRM has clearly set out to avoid inserting into his story.

He does not want this kind of characters in his story, but that is exactly what the Others become if they were created for one purpose - killing. That lumps them in with creatures such as Orcs and Uruk Hai, corrupted and created beings with pure evil in their very make up. Nah, im not buying it. Too Black and White for GRRM i think.

If the Cotf/singers had any involvement, im looking to a more detailed explanation, possibly it was a mistake, something went wrong perhaps.

I have theorised that the Cotf pulled off one of the biggest, if not the biggest blood sacrifice of all time, which upset the very balance of the atmosphere and sent a Comet hurtling into the second moon that used to orbit the skies, smashing it into a million pieces which sent many pieces of this magical stone crashing into areas of land and sea on (what people call) "Planetos".

I think a large piece, or pieces of this stone landed in Asshai and due to its power it caused such a magical upheaval on the land and set in motion the creation/evolution of Dragons and Wyverns and such creatures. The whole city i think is possibly made of this stone.

See the Bloodstone Emperor on how a piece of stone that fell from the sky was so powerful it turned him from his own gods to then worship this stone, and also how this stone plays a part in his story on how he brought on the Long Night. The maiden made of light (the sun) turned her back on the world, despairing at the evil that had been unleashed on earth. I think this possibly refers to the corruption of things after the falling of the stone, or the actual stone itself.

See how Bran in his vision in AGOT drifts to Asshai and thats as far as he goes in that direction, and we are given a description of Dragons stirring, and the sunrise, which conjures up images of an awakening, kind of like a birth. Then the next place he drifts to is the Heart of Winter in the far north, the polar opposite to the southern Asshai, the place where i believe the Others originated from and originate from. Its like we are meant to see how these places are connected.

Before i ramble too much ill state that i am leaning much more to the idea that a piece or pieces of this magical stone fell in the Heart of winter and set in motion the creation/evolution of the beings we know as the Others and that is one way the Cotf can be found responsible for the creation of the Others. And yes i am talking along the lines that this event begun the collapse of the normal season structure, set in motion the Long Night, and also was responsible for the creation of the beings of Ice and Fire, the Others and the Dragons.

All this is just my theory though. But i stand by what i say, i think we should look to there being a much more detailed and not so straight forward explanation for the creation of the Others. The straight forward explanation being that the Cotf took men and corrupted them with the sole intention of killing off the race of men until they were no more. Very evil darklord type explanation that one which im not so sure GRRM will show to be the case.

[YOVMO]

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 11:20 AM, Greywater-Watch said:

The summers have been shorter since the last dragon died, and the winters longer and crueler."

I have read this too, however I think it speaks to either prejudice, subjective experience or outright unreliability of the narrator.  

Keep in mind the AGOT begins towards the end of a summer which lasted 10 years 2 months and 16 days. After this Autumn lasted only a single year. It is at the end of the Summer that the dragons are born. There was a 7 Year summer during the reign on King Maekar I. When Tyrion is born there is a Three Year Winter. The Winter was also very short during the year of the false spring.

We don't really have much reliable information regarding the length of seasons prior to the death of the last dragon in 153 but between The Last Dragon and Dany's Hatiching of D, V, R we have several very long summers and several very short winters

[Free Northman Reborn]

There are actually 6 symbolic forces, not 4, and we read of them in Meera's and Jojen's ancient oath to Bran. They end it off with the phrase:

I swear it by Earth and Water

I swear it by Bronze and Iron

We swear it by Ice and Fire

If we take that to be roughly chronological, I favour a scenario where originally there was only Earth and Water (The Children and the Deep Ones)

Then men came, and they are represented by Bronze and Iron

And then, probably in response to the changes brought about by men, something was triggered (perhaps the Hammer of the Waters), which unleashed the forces of Ice and Fire into the world. Note that men predate Dragons for example, as the Qartheen legend suggests that there were men in existence to witness the arrival of the first Dragons from the "second moon that was melted by the Sun". Similarly, men arrived in Westeros thousands of years before the Others appeared in the historical record.

So Fire does not represent men, in my view. Neither does Ice. Bronze and Iron (technology) represents men. Ice and Fire are primordial (or perhaps extra terrestrial) forces that were invoked in an attempt by the representatives of Earth (and perhaps Water) to repel the Bronze and Iron of men.

[Orphalesion]

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

  Spirits of the dead are not the same as spirits associated with death.  If you have a moment to clarify if a spirit associated with death is like a harbinger or something completely different I'd be interested to know. 

Spirits of the dead are beings that once were alive, but still roam the world. Spirits associated with death either are harbingers as you correctly concluded or spirits that are known for causing death and decay either through actions or their presence alone.

5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

As to the Cotf/singers involvement in how the Others came to be, of course that cant be ruled out. But it need not be how it was shown on screen and it need not even be that they purposefully created a species of killers with the sole purpose of extinguishing the race of men. That sounds entirely too much like the Dark lords that GRRM has clearly set out to avoid inserting into his story.

He does not want this kind of characters in his story, but that is exactly what the Others become if they were created for one purpose - killing. That lumps them in with creatures such as Orcs and Uruk Hai, corrupted and created beings with pure evil in their very make up. Nah, im not buying it. Too Black and White for GRRM i think.

If the Cotf/singers had any involvement, im looking to a more detailed explanation, possibly it was a mistake, something went wrong perhaps.

 

I do think, without meaning any disrespect that some of GRRM's statements about his world are very similar to the various essays Tolkien wrote late in his life (like the supposed gender equality among Elves that never shows up and seems even to be contradicted by the text). As in intentions and wishes that might not exactly match the text. Like if there is anything positive about the Others at all, it will be difficult to showcase without it coming over as halfbacked. Same with GRRM's statements about how the Children aren't Elves. Sorry, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... 

And there are specks of pure black and white in Planetos, whether it was intentional or not. And explanation why somebody commits "evil" actions makes them not any less evil.

Also mentioning the Orcs here sells Tolkien short. Sauron very much thought he was in the right and that what he did would ultimately benefit everyone. The Orcs (funny that you point out the Uruk Hai, which are seldom referred to in the books, much less by that name...) actually believe that the forces of good are the true evil and their name for the Valar/archangels is "Enemy", the same title the "good" side bestows upon them. And finally one mention hints at Orcs fighting against Sauron, on the side of men and elves... Tolkien is not as black and white as some make him out to be. Turin, Galadriel, Feanor...there is a lot of grey in Middle Earth...

Also who says that, if the CoTF created the Others, they were meant to "exterminate" the race of men? My personal theory in regard to this possibility is that they were meant to drive humans out of Westeros, not completely exterminate them everywhere.

In this theory the Children created the Others as a means to drive humans from their realms, but it turned out that they have created something that they can't control, something that would not only exterminate men, but them as well. So in the end they actually had to work together with humanity in the War for the Dawn.

[ravenous reader]

6 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

There are actually 6 symbolic forces, not 4, and we read of them in Meera's and Jojen's ancient oath to Bran. They end it off with the phrase:

I swear it by Earth and Water

I swear it by Bronze and Iron

We swear it by Ice and Fire

If we take that to be roughly chronological, I favour a scenario where originally there was only Earth and Water (The Children and the Deep Ones)

Then men came, and they are represented by Bronze and Iron

And then, probably in response to the changes brought about by men, something was triggered (perhaps the Hammer of the Waters), which unleashed the forces of Ice and Fire into the world. Note that men predate Dragons for example, as the Qartheen legend suggests that there were men in existence to witness the arrival of the first Dragons from the "second moon that was melted by the Sun". Similarly, men arrived in Westeros thousands of years before the Others appeared in the historical record.

So Fire does not represent men, in my view. Neither does Ice. Bronze and Iron (technology) represents men. Ice and Fire are primordial (or perhaps extra terrestrial) forces that were invoked in an attempt by the representatives of Earth (and perhaps Water) to repel the Bronze and Iron of men.

There are a few logical fallacies with the 'assumption of chronology' argument.  For starters, while I agree that the 'bronze' and 'iron' refer respectively to the First Men and Andal weapon forging technology, of which the latter was superior; consider that in order to forge a sword one needs an essential ingredient -- fire (as well as water)...no fire, no forge!  So the element of 'fire' must've predated both 'bronze' and 'iron.'  Unless you're presuming that the 'fire' in question only refers to the Targaryen master-race, and that only they used fire technology -- and that 'fire' only refers to the 'dragon' and 'volcano' forging of Valyrian steel -- with which I have a problem; in addition, why would the Reeds, representatives of the Neck's Crannog people, be invoking fire if they're not Targaryen 'fire people'?  Upfront, I'll confirm 'Targcentrism' fails to appeal to me in general.  They are not the sole wielders of fire technology, even though their such technologies may be relatively advanced compared to some other cultures.

As far as the element of 'water' predating 'fire,' I also disagree.  

Quote

Water is made of two hydrogen atoms attached to an oxygen atom. This seems like pretty basic chemistry, so why don't we just smash them together and solve the world­'s water ills? Theoretically, this is possible, but it would be an extrem­ely dangerous process, too.

To create water, oxygen and hydrogen atoms must be present. Mixing them together doesn't help; you're still left with just separate hydrogen and oxygen atoms. The orbits of each atom's electrons must become linked, and to do that we must have a sudden burst of energy to get these shy things to hook up.

Since hydrogen is extremely flammable and oxygen supports combustion, it wouldn't take much to create this force. Pretty much all we need is a spark -- not even a flame -- and boom! We've got water.

From: Why can't we manufacture water?

Therefore, there is no 'water' without 'fire.'

Moreover, scientists believe that the planet earth didn't always have water.  Originally it was a ball of molten rock --'molten', so again 'fire' predating both water and earth.  Although they are not certain how the element of water came to the planet, it's possible it was brought via meteorites with high water content, 'gifts' from outer space.  The form in which the water is delivered in asteroids/comets is as ice, before it melts forming water.  Therefore, 'ice' also predates, not postdates, water in the schema.

Remember, ice is just another phase of water.  Therefore, ice magic must be a subset of water magic.  And I would argue all magic involves fire, but I won't get into that in any great length here, suffice it to say that...

Basically, none of the other 5 things is possible without fire.

I agree with your statement that man is represented by the technologies of bronze and iron, whereas ice and fire are more 'primordial forces.'  In fact, I'd argue they are the original elements and should by rights chronologically appear at the top of the scheme to give:

Fire and Ice

Earth and Water

Bronze and Iron

The reason, however, the fire-and-ice couplet is given last in the actual oath is that the third element binds up the charm, in other words, makes the oath binding-- 'third time lucky,' 'three's a charm,'  'three's a curse'; 'the charm's wound up', (Macbeth, in which the 3 witches curse Macbeth by chanting in a circle in various permutations of 3, to give 3 times 3=9), etc. -- therefore, the third invocation is the most important.  

As good examples thereof, the third 'corn' of the raven's knell 'corn corn corn'; or the third 'oh' of Patchface's menacing 'oh oh oh' which seals all his prophecies; or the third blast on the horn to signify the arrival of the Others (in contradistinction to the one blast of rangers returning and the two to announce Wildlings).  Also, the third crack Dany heard in the pyre of her alchemical wedding in which the dragons emerged was the sound of Drogon being born.  He is the most important dragon and fulfils the triplet:

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AGOT-Daenerys X

She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.

Only death can pay for life.

And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don't you see? Don't you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children.

The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.

Although he was born last, Drogon is the alpha dragon.  By the same logic, the third forging of 'Lightbringer' is also the apotheosis; and the third couplet of the crannog oath represents the omega and alpha, however paradoxical that may seem.

But GRRM adores paradoxes -- and I'll keep saying it until I'm blue in the face; and though there be flames, I'll brave them.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I assumed an understanding that I'm not refering to the physical or scientific presence of fire and ice in the world, which of course goes back billions of years, but to the arrival or awakening of the spiritual or magical powers of Ice and Fire.

Meaning dragons and fire magic, which predates the Valyrians, but which does not predate human beings. Just like the Others and their Ice magic don't predate human beings.

[ravenous reader]

12 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I assumed an understanding that I'm not refering to the physical or scientific presence of fire and ice in the world, which of course goes back billions of years, but to the arrival or awakening of the spiritual or magical powers of Ice and Fire.

Meaning dragons and fire magic, which predates the Valyrians, but which does not predate human beings. Just like the Others and their Ice magic don't predate human beings.

I understand what you're saying -- it's eminently difficult to differentiate the literal from the figurative, the scientific from the poetic, in GRRM's writing.  Nevertheless, the science of the elements is also constitutive of their symbolism, e.g. fire melting ice is very much an integral part of the way one combats the wights and Others, etc.  And GRRM mixes in a lot of science, so it cannot be divorced from any consideration of the symbolic.

Also, while I agree that technology can't predate humans, the 'magic' as in the chemistry of it certainly does.  The earth and the universe existed without us for eons, yet the fire and ice equations continued unabated -- we are a late addition to the 'project' as Carl Sagan or Neil Degrasse Tyson will tell you.  Human beings just 'harnessed' the magic; but they didn't create it.  This is the meaning of the oft-touted 'stealing fire from the gods.'

[Macgregor of the North]

@Orphalesion

In regards to what you say here:

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Also mentioning the Orcs here sells Tolkien short. Sauron very much thought he was in the right and that what he did would ultimately benefit everyone. The Orcs (funny that you point out the Uruk Hai, which are seldom referred to in the books, much less by that name...) actually believe that the forces of good are the true evil and their name for the Valar/archangels is "Enemy", the same title the "good" side bestows upon them. And finally one mention hints at Orcs fighting against Sauron, on the side of men and elves... Tolkien is not as black and white as some make him out to be. Turin, Galadriel, Feanor...there is a lot of grey in Middle Earth...

Without turning this into a LOTR discussion, which I would actually love lol, I'll mention quickly that while Sauron was indeed fairer in his intentions and his appearance in his earlier days, even in the second age he wasn't completely evil although he was getting there, his actions never ever really speak of "benefiting everyone", only those who fell under his rule really. 

If you opposed his rule or command, nothing he did was really for your benefit, Infact, he would then seek to force you under his spell or simply kill you. Not benefitting everyone at all. 

I don't know why you say the Uruk Hai are seldom referred to in the books, there were Uruks of Mordor bred by Sauron and later Saruman bred his very own Uruk Hai, but the key thing I'm on about here is that they were bred. Created beings with a completely negative purpose, evil. Fighting machines for killing. 

The Uruks are a very very Black and White part of Tolkiens world and I am saying that if the Cotf created the Others with the view to killing off men, then this is too similar to the type of Black and white character GRRM did not want in his story, and in this light, this is what the Others become. 

But, alas, you go on to say this. 

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Also who says that, if the CoTF created the Others, they were meant to "exterminate" the race of men? My personal theory in regard to this possibility is that they were meant to drive humans out of Westeros, not completely exterminate them everywhere.

Now, I am simply saying my point of view from the many theories out there that the Others were created to battle and kill men.

What you propose is something different, but, I'll add that there is not a shred of evidence in the books that show that what you propose ever happened. 

[Orphalesion]

On 19/01/2017 at 1:16 PM, Macgregor of the North said:

@Orphalesion

In regards to what you say here:

Without turning this into a LOTR discussion, which I would actually love lol, I'll mention quickly that while Sauron was indeed fairer in his intentions and his appearance in his earlier days, even in the second age he wasn't completely evil although he was getting there, his actions never ever really speak of "benefiting everyone", only those who fell under his rule really. 

If you opposed his rule or command, nothing he did was really for your benefit, Infact, he would then seek to force you under his spell or simply kill you. Not benefiting everyone at all. 

I don't know why you say the Uruk Hai are seldom referred to in the books, there were Uruks of Mordor bred by Sauron and later Saruman bred his very own Uruk Hai, but the key thing I'm on about here is that they were bred. Created beings with a completely negative purpose, evil. Fighting machines for killing. 

The Uruks are a very very Black and White part of Tolkiens world and I am saying that if the Cotf created the Others with the view to killing off men, then this is too similar to the type of Black and white character GRRM did not want in his story, and in this light, this is what the Others become. 

But, alas, you go on to say this. 

Now, I am simply saying my point of view from the many theories out there that the Others were created to battle and kill men.

What you propose is something different, but, I'll add that there is not a shred of evidence in the books that show that what you propose ever happened. 

0) Still that waht was I was talking about; most of the time the book calls them "Uruks", it's more the movies that throw around "Uruk-Hai" like it was punctuation.

1) Sauron's methods are not the point of content. The point of content was that, in his own mind, he thought that Middle Earth, Ambar, Arda, EA/wathever would be better off if everybody just allowed him to run their lives. That was his driving motive behind the rings; he wanted to bring order. He wanted to bring this order by subjugating everyone and everything under his will, but he still wanted to bring order, which in his mind was something desirable. He didn't consider that others might not find that desirable, but that's a crime many humans are guilty of as well. 

Now how is he different from, say. Tywin (not saying Tywin is evil, just comparing) who killed, maimed and destroyed left and right in order to restore and maintain some lofty ideal like the prestige of his family? Because Twyin can't use "magic"? That's an odd criteria. Because if Twyin had access to magic, I'd dare say he'd use it. And even so he can still very much send his own Uruk to rape and kill you and your family if you do something he doesn't like...or are related to someone who did something he didn't like...or stood next to somebody who did something he didn't like...

Said Uruk was maybe not "bred" but he was definitely groomed to be a being of pure destruction without the slightest redeeming fibre. And no, the fact that the Mountain had bad headaches doesn't count.

Also by now the mountain is a zombie created specifically to kill people and destroy stuff for Cersei (who also was not exactly morally gray in her actions of handing over innocents, and her own allies, to Qyburn for his experiments)

But maybe you are only talking about whole armies of killing machines...which brings me to...

2) Not sure what you mean by "bred". The Orcs were natural creatures (Tolkien never was satisfied with any of the origins he devised for Orcs, but it was clear that by the time of the LoTR he envisioned them as corrupted, not created by magic). Whatever Saruman did to get his Half-Orcs, it defenitely had nothing to do with "magic" and didn't evolve them being being born from muck. It was probably more akin to what we witnessed in the Reek Chapters (Oh yes Ramsay, another "very grey" character)

This means Orcs started out as babies at one point, at which point they were shaped into killing machines by unspecified means that are hinted at involving propaganda, indoctrination and torture. Sound familiar?

The Unsullied; a whole caste of mindless killing machines that get created by mutilation, torture and indoctrination. Their rite of passage consists of them killing babies and their own pet dogs, if that's not ridiculous levels of laughable cartoon villain, then I don't know what... Does it really metter that the Unsullied weren't specifically "bred" for? Does it matter that they were selected as very young children? Plus the way slavery works I'm pretty sure some slave-born slaves went on to become Unsullied, so in a way those would be "bred" in the same way Orcs are "bred"

And before you say the Unsullied Dany freed started to show that they have minds of their own. The scene where Frodo and Sam listened in to those two Orc wardens very much showed that Orcs do have their own minds, but are just heavily indoctrinated. The Orcs met in the mountains in the Hobbit were antagonistic, but they didn't go out of their way to actively move against Rivendell (and yes I know about Celebrian, but that could happen in Westeros as well) and the Uruks that dragged Merry and Pippin around were in no way more unpleasant than the brave Companions, the Mountain's Men or the Bastard's Boys.

And then there's the Others themselves, who are committing wholesale genocide and then dishonor the dead bodies of the people they kill by turning them into their own Zombie Minions to hunt and kill their own families and friends. Doesn't matter if they have some higher reason for it or whatnot (something that isn't hinted at by the text either...)  Sauron believed he had a "higher reason" as well. 

3) Of course my theory is not supported yet, we don't know Jack about why or how the Others came to be. I just logically combined the idea of the Children with the theory that "black and white" thinking should be avoided when talking about ASoIaF and pointed out that the action of creating the others, even as living weapons does not automatically be "morally black" and might just have been a desperate last ditch effort that went out of control. So should it turn out the CHildren did create them, it does not have to be a case of the Children sitting in dark towers, cackling evilly as they send out their minions to "kill zem all", that was all I was pointing out.