Jamie's Role In The Red Wedding

[Joey Crows]

Can someone clear this up for me? I was just re-reading ASOS and realized that Jamie and Roose Bolton seem to have an unspoken understanding about the RW. They have dinner and play "the game" and as Jamie is leaving Harrenhal he tells Roose to "give his regards to Robb Stark." Which Roose agrees to do. Now, obviously Tywin has written to Walder Frey and conspired to end King Robb, but did he also write to Roose Bolton? If he did that was a bold move considering at the time his allegiance to Robb was seemingly still in tact. And even if he did, did Roose tell Jamie the plan while they were at Harrenhal? Maybe I missed something obvious, and certainly my mind isn't clear at 7am on New Year's Day, but anyway, give me the deets please!

[kissdbyfire]

Jaime didn't know about the plans, he wasn't in on it at all. He tells Roose to send his regards to Robb because he's being cheeky and well, he's being Jaime. I wouldn't be surprised if Tywin had a finger in that, btw. You know, because Jaime was a pow of the Starks and all that. So, not out of the realm of possibility that Tywin tells Roose to say something like that. 

[Joey Crows]

32 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Jaime didn't know about the plans, he wasn't in on it at all. He tells Roose to send his regards to Robb because he's being cheeky and well, he's being Jaime. I wouldn't be surprised if Tywin had a finger in that, btw. You know, because Jaime was a pow of the Starks and all that. So, not out of the realm of possibility that Tywin tells Roose to say something like that. 

Roger roger. So is it just understood then that Tywin and Roose had been in contact before Jamie leaves Harrenhal? 

[kissdbyfire]

17 minutes ago, Joey Crows said:

Roger roger. So is it just understood then that Tywin and Roose had been in contact before Jamie leaves Harrenhal? 

Pretty much, yeah. The details are not clear, but there are a few clues. Like Roose taking only Dreadfort and Karhold men when marching to retake MC, and the Duskendale mess, where he tells Robb it was Glover's fault (or Tallhart's?), when in reality he told them to attack. 

There's also otherbits here and there, like in ASoS epilogue:

“Maybe so. What do a bunch o’ bloody peasants know about a lord’s honor?” Yellow cloak wrapped the end of the rope around his hand three times. “We know some about murder, though.”

“Not murder.” His voice was shrill. “It was vengeance, we had a right to our vengeance. It was war. Aegon, we called him Jinglebell, a poor lackwit never hurt anyone, Lady Stark cut his throat. We lost half a hundred men in the camps. Ser Garse Goodbrook, Kyra’s husband, and Ser Tytos, Jared’s son . . . someone smashed his head in with an axe . . . Stark’s direwolf killed four of our wolfhounds and tore the kennelmaster’s arm off his shoulder, even after we’d filled him full of quarrels . . . ”

“So you sewed his head on Robb Stark’s neck after both o’ them were dead,” said yellow cloak.

“My father did that. All I did was drink. You wouldn’t kill a man for drinking.” Merrett remembered something then, something that might be the saving of him. “They say Lord Beric always gives a man a trial, that he won’t kill a man unless something’s proved against him. You can’t prove anything against me. The Red Wedding was my father’s work, and Ryman’s and Lord Bolton’s. Lothar rigged the tents to collapse and put the crossbowmen in the gallery with the musicians, Bastard Walder led the attack on the camps . . . they’re the ones you want, not me, I only drank some wine . . . you have no witness.”

“As it happens, you’re wrong there.” The singer turned to the hooded woman. “Milady?”

[Joey Crows]

Yup, that about answers my question! Thanks for the knowledge.

[zandru]

I don't think Jaime had a clue about the Red Wedding plans - after all, he was a Stark prisoner for a long time, and out of touch. I also don't think Roose told him anything - why spread a major, strategic surprise like that around to anyone who wasn't intimately involved with bringing it off? Plus, at this point, Jaime is still "the enemy."

So why would Jaime tell Roose to "give his regards to Robb Stark"? Because at that point, as far as Jaime knew, Bolton was a Stark bannerman, under Robb Stark's command, and would be likely to encounter him at some point.

(Also, as a dig at Robb to remind him that his mother Catelyn had released Jaime.)

I don't think any big conspiracy was involved here.

[sweetsunray]

Jaime didn't know, but I'm not so sure the dig was for Robb, but most likely meant for Roose himself.

Catelyn released Jamie, but then he was sought after and Lord Karstark had offered to wed the man who caught him againt to Alys Karstark. But then Roose catches Jaime and lets him go, with a big escort of his own men and betrays his king. Jaime likely doesn't expect Roose to repeat those words at all to Robb, because then he'd risk exposing himself as a traitor. What Jaime didn't know was that Roose's plan of treason were far bigger than releasing Jaime and that he does let Robb know.

But for Jaime the dig is meant for Roose who he expects cannot pass on the message to Robb withotu exposing himself.

[Julia H.]

I agree that Jaime couldn't have known of the Red Wedding (unless Roose told him and I don't see why he would do such a thing), but the fact that Roose let Jaime go home while he left Brienne (Catelyn Stark's sworn sword) in Vargo Hoat's hands must have been some indication that Roose Bolton was about to switch sides. Jaime must have suspected that Robb wasn't happy with Catelyn's idea of sending him to King's Landing, and failing to free Brienne indicated that Roose wasn't exactly Cat Stark's man either. Jaime probably wouldn't miss the signs even if he wasn't asking questions about the details of the state of negotiations between Bolton and Tywin. His message to Robb probably has a double meaning: on the surface 'give Robb Stark my regards when you next see him' (in which case Roose would be in a somewhat awkward situation explaining to Robb why he had let Jaime go free, so a message Roose would not give Robb) and a deeper meaning 'remind Robb of me if you ever face him openly as an enemy'.

[Dofs]

I am pretty sure Jaime didn't mean for Roose to actually send Robb his regards. Jaime just found it ironic that his "enemy" asked him to give Tywin his regards, so Jaime joked in response to give Robb his. Doubt there is anything more into it.

[Damsel in Distress]

I hate to dissapoint Jaime's fans but he knew Robb will die.  Roose just let him go.  Which is treason against Robb.  Robb would execute Roose for letting Jaime go.  Roose chose his side.  Robb has to die for Roose to continue living.  Jaime also guessed his father approved the deal and offered something enticing to Roose and the Freys.

Jaime didn't know the details.  The rw was secret.  But he knew Roose would attempt to assassinate Robb and do it through betrayal.  Jaime knew Robb was about to meet his maker. 

[Cridefea]

I think he knew that Bolton was going to betray Robb, but I don't think he knew how and to what extent. He only knew that he was changing side; I think that "So long as you give mine to Robb Stark" could be an ironic answer.

 

OT: I know you probably don't give a fig, but this is the reason why I'm on this forum.  I was re-reading Asoiaf in italian and there is a line where it is written that Jaime told Brienne about the RW. So it seems he knew Bolton's plan and I couldn't make sense of it. I had to search on the web and I came here. It turned out there was a mistranslation. 

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

I think he knew that Bolton was going to betray Robb, but I don't think he knew how and to what extent. He only knew that he was changing side; I think that "So long as you give mine to Robb Stark" could be an ironic answer.

 

OT: I know you probably don't give a fig, but this is the reason why I'm on this forum.  I was re-reading Asoiaf in italian and there is a line where it is written that Jaime told Brienne about the RW. So it seems he knew Bolton's plan and I couldn't make sense of it. I had to search on the web and I came here. It turned out there was a mistranslation. 

Wow, that's a pretty bad translating mistake!

[DigUpHerBones]

he did not know the details, but he knew Tywin's retribution in past circumstances. IE, the Castamere's.

precedence was set.

Jamie knew, under no circumstances, would Robb ever live to see a real crown.

 

 

[Dofs]

9 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

I hate to dissapoint Jaime's fans but he knew Robb will die.  Roose just let him go.  Which is treason against Robb.  Robb would execute Roose for letting Jaime go.  Roose chose his side.  Robb has to die for Roose to continue living.  Jaime also guessed his father approved the deal and offered something enticing to Roose and the Freys.

Jaime didn't know the details.  The rw was secret.  But he knew Roose would attempt to assassinate Robb and do it through betrayal.  Jaime knew Robb was about to meet his maker. 

Jaime could not have known anything about the Freys. He also knew that Roose expected Robb to lose and already tried to negotiate himself a good future with Tywin. But he did not know that Roose was going to flat out assassinate Robb, that's quite a leap to make.

Whether Robb was going to die or not was probably not something Jaime cared. Robb was his enemy and Jaime had personally tried to kill him once anyway.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

11 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

I hate to dissapoint Jaime's fans but he knew Robb will die.  Roose just let him go.  Which is treason against Robb.  Robb would execute Roose for letting Jaime go.  Roose chose his side.  Robb has to die for Roose to continue living.  Jaime also guessed his father approved the deal and offered something enticing to Roose and the Freys.

Jaime didn't know the details.  The rw was secret.  But he knew Roose would attempt to assassinate Robb and do it through betrayal.  Jaime knew Robb was about to meet his maker. 

It’s clear Jaime knew that Roose was not playing it straight with Robb, and was at the very least hedging his bets. He may have suspected that Roose would outright betray Robb, but he didn’t know the details of the plot, or even that such a plot was being hatched at all.

[Danelle]

I think that Jaime was pragmatic when it came to matters such as war.

Not to mention that unlike Brienne and Robb, he and Roose had previous battle experience and were both well aware of unstable circumstances which can define the outcome of a war.

 

Let us not forget that when Catelyn visited him, he wanted to know whether Cersei, Tyrion and Tywin are still alive, which suggests that he feared that not only his father, who was an active participant in the campaign against the Starks, but his siblings, who most likely were behind the walls of KL, might have died. 

 

When he meets Roose, it should be noted that he seems genuinely surprised to discover that it is Edmure who is getting married instead of King Robb.

 

Quote

"Edmure weds?" said Jaime. "Not Robb Stark?"

"His Grace King Robb is wed." Bolton spit a prune pit into his hand and put it aside. "To a Westerling of the Crag. I am told her name is Jeyne. No doubt you know her, ser. Her father is your father's bannerman."

"My father has a good many bannermen, and most of them have daughters." Jaime groped one-handed for his goblet, trying to recall this Jeyne. The Westerlings were an old house, with more pride than power.

He immediately analyses the situation under a political/diplomatic prism.

He had expected that Robb would marry a Frey, which would have made sense since

• House Frey is young, powerful but gets no respect
• A wedding with any Frey lady would strengthen Robb's military power and satisfy Lord Walder's ambitions
• additionally it would further stengthen the bonds between the Riverlands and the North

 

Instead Robb not only did not marry a Frey lady, but of all the people in Westeros, he chose a Westerling to become his father-in-law. A Westerling who also happens to be Tywin's bannerman.Not only that but the Westerlings were the exact opposite of the Freys-lots of history but no money.

The first thing that Jaime thinks about Robb after he evaluates the situation is the following:

 

Quote

Jaime felt almost sorry for Robb Stark. He won the war on the battlefield and lost it in a bedchamber, poor fool. "How does Lord Walder relish dining on trout in place of wolf?" he asked.

In the same conversation between Jaime, Brienne and Roose, it is also mentioned that Roose married a Frey and that Arya's betrothal to Elmar was annuled.

 

So Jaime was talking to a man who had recently married a lady Frey, shortly after the Freys removed their support from Robb's cause, because he had chosen a Westerling.

At this point it was rather obvious that Robb had made a grave mistake and that his chances of winning the war were slim.

Re-reading the interaction between Jaime, Brienne and Roose, it is rather obvious that the latter was clearly foreshadowing the RW but this doesn't mean that Jaime understood the hints.

 

 

[Cridefea]

On 3/1/2017 at 1:50 AM, kissdbyfire said:

Wow, that's a pretty bad translating mistake!

Not one of the worst.  But enough to make me think there was something strange 

"A troop of Lord Piper’s men had passed through Brindlewood only yesterday, Beesbury told them, rushing to King’s Landing beneath a peace banner of their own. “With the Young Wolf dead Piper saw no point to fighting on. His son is captive at the Twins.” Brienne gaped like a cow about to choke on her cud, so it fell to Jaime to draw out the tale of the Red Wedding."

In italian book is "so it fell to Jaime to tell the tale of the Red Wedding"

 

[sweetsunray]

On 3-1-2017 at 2:51 AM, DigUpHerBones said:

Jamie knew, under no circumstances, would Robb ever live to see a real crown.

He wore a real crown. His kingdom may have had only existed for a short time war period, but to him, and those who pledged to him the kingdom was real as was his crown. 

Joffrey didn't live long enough to become off age. There was a regent. And Joffrey's not really a Baratheon and his kingship was contended in war. He was still a king though. 

[Kienn]

Jaime knew that Roose was on the way to see Robb. He didn't know what would actually happen at their meeting.