Masculinity

[peterbound]

I've been on a bender lately with books related to masculinity, and what it means today.  Might have something to do with my son getting older, and me trying to raise him to be a good dude, might have something to do with the fact that the word/idea itself is getting washed away, or maybe it's because i'm getting older.  Either way, i'm curious about some of the broader concepts of it, and what it means to other people. 

I'd be interested to know what you all think masculinity means to you, or if you could even define it?  How to be masculine in a world that is quickly becoming a place that is turning that idea into something toxic? Or is it even possible to be classically masculine in today's society?  

 

Again, I'm curious to hear from the Eurocommie boarders out there, and those who hate the world, as well as you fellow men trying to navigate this difficult waters of modern masculinity.  

Oh, and for me it's simple: Strength, Skill, and Compassion.  Those are  the main things that sum up being a man/masculine to me.  

[karaddin]

I think its a complicated problem and can't be fixed in isolation, but

13 minutes ago, peterbound said:

Oh, and for me it's simple: Strength, Skill, and Compassion.  Those are  the main things that sum up being a man/masculine to me.  

Is both something I'm on board with, but also on the edge of the problem. If these are masculine, does that mean feminine doesn't have them? I don't think so and I don't think it has to mean this, that's the other thing that needs to change - that masculine and feminine are opposite. I see them more as the flavour or tone of the attribute. There is strength in a masculine way and a feminine way, but fucked if I can articulate it still.

Strength in what is currently viewed as a masculine way however is something I don't even consider to be strong. Being emotionally isolated and repressed isn't strength, its brittle and prone to snapping. Classical masculinity however is a different question, I actually think there are probably components of classical masculinity much more healthy than modern mainstream masculinity (which is where I think the problem is).

Can I ask what books you've read on it? I've got one to suggest if you haven't read it.

[peterbound]

Tones and attributes I like... and yes, I think there is bleed over.  On that note, I'd be interested to hear what you think the definition of femininity is.  When I bring this up with my peers, I always ask the ladies the same question, and they seem to be at a loss to define what their side of the equation is as well. 

 

Books:

The art of manliness

how to raise an adult

the way of men

tribe

Grow the fuck up

Gorilla Mindset

 

I'd love to take a recommendation from you.  

[Altherion]

No matter how you define them, you're going to have the same problem: why is something masculine, why is something feminine and if you say that something is both, what do the words masculine and feminine even mean? There are a few exceptions based on biology (e.g. "feminine hygiene products"), but for the most part, these words made a lot more sense in times when and/or places where men and women were expected to play different roles in society. In our society, this is (in theory if not entirely in practice) not really the case anymore.

[karaddin]

It was actually asking myself to define manhood for myself in therapy after my marriage broke down that I finally made me accept I was a woman, because everything I answered was gender neutral. If I had no issue with trying to be all of those things, why was I still struggling with it so much? Because I wasn't a man.

I'm really bad at actually trying to put my finger on the subtle distinctions between the two, at the time my answer could have been to the question of "What defines an adult?" rather than "a man", it wasn't too different from what you said though. Responsible, reliable, strength (of the internal/personality variety, not physical), compassion and love would all feature there.

I don't have anything like the detachment necessary to try define femininity in a universal sense, any attempt to do so is drowned out by what it means *to me* which is a single word - freedom. Freedom to love, freedom to laugh, freedom to live, freedom to feel. Masculinity *to me* is the exact opposite of this - bondage. I manage to not look at them this way in any broader discussion, but its always there for me to be aware of and I do think the latter is one of the big harmful components of modern mainstream masculinity.

I think the best way I can see the difference is embodied in my parents (which I'm sure is far from unusual)...the way my Mum loved me, the way my Mum protected me is feminine, and my Dad masculine. Both did both, but there is that slight difference in flavour again. I'd say the whole 'Mother bear' thing would be a cliche I'd appeal to for feminine protectiveness, masculine I don't even know but I see it in my Dad and it's healthy and beautiful. I see it in one of my brothers with his kids.

The book is Manhood by Steve Biddulph. I would say its far from a flawless book and if I read it again I'd probably find various things to take issue with, but on the whole its a good attempt at looking at where masculinity has gone wrong and possible avenues for addressing this. I remember there being some things about rights of passage that I wasn't entirely comfortable with.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

25 minutes ago, peterbound said:

  On that note, I'd be interested to hear what you think the definition of femininity is.  

I don't think they are separate things. Any attribute you can say is one, can also apply to the other.  No every person has all qualities though. 

But then I always objected to "feminine" roles, classifications. Not that I wanted to be a male, I just wanted to be equal to them, allowed to do what they were allowed to do, be what they were allowed to be.

 

eta: I am not saying there are not differences between the two, I know there are, I just think that the way they are thought about is rather outdated

 

[peterbound]

51 minutes ago, Altherion said:

this is (in theory if not entirely in practice) not really the case anymore.

For me, I think, this idea has lead to toxic masculinity, and increasing rates of depression in men.  There is a difference, and they do have roles to play in society, when we reject that, we reject how we are hard wired.  This fucks us up, methinks. 

[Arkhangel]

I think the idea that gender should shape a person's personality is bullshit, frankly. There's nothing innately masculine about strength, skill or compassion; there's nothing innately feminine about gentleness, or thoughtfulness or being good with people. These are all things which all people can and should aspire to be regardless of their gender. The fact that 'masculine' and 'feminine' are so difficult to define points to the fact that they are groundless stereotypes which have mostly just made a lot of people unhappy, in my opinion. Let's smash them.

[Iskaral Pust]

I haven't thought deeply about this topic but I'm also raising a son who's approaching adolescence.  I don't focus too much on masculinity; I emphasize first how to be a good person, both externally to others and internally.  I think the traditional norms of blue collar masculinity from my childhood are pretty regressive and unhelpful, even when people try to burnish them with nostalgia and only focusing on the positives.  Those positive aspects came packaged with inevitable negatives.

For the gendered aspect, I usually talk about what typically differs between men and women -- biological strength and aggression, and sociological role expectations -- and help to him think about what he wants that to mean for him and how he should act.  I often think most women don't know how much mental effort men spend resisting urges toward aggression, dominance and territorialism.  But perhaps it's just the same for them even with less testosterone.

The thing that worries me most is that my wife and I, without really planning to, ended up in quite traditional gender roles in our family.  I need to prepare our son for other variations in marriage and relationships.  No matter what we say, what he has actually lived and experienced all his life will probably always seem normal or natural.

[Savannah]

9 hours ago, peterbound said:

I've been on a bender lately with books related to masculinity, and what it means today.  Might have something to do with my son getting older, and me trying to raise him to be a good dude, might have something to do with the fact that the word/idea itself is getting washed away, or maybe it's because i'm getting older.  Either way, i'm curious about some of the broader concepts of it, and what it means to other people. 

I'd be interested to know what you all think masculinity means to you, or if you could even define it?  How to be masculine in a world that is quickly becoming a place that is turning that idea into something toxic? Or is it even possible to be classically masculine in today's society?  

 

Again, I'm curious to hear from the Eurocommie boarders out there, and those who hate the world, as well as you fellow men trying to navigate this difficult waters of modern masculinity.  

Oh, and for me it's simple: Strength, Skill, and Compassion.  Those are  the main things that sum up being a man/masculine to me.  

Do you want an honest discussion or more like a safe space?

Not mocking, it's an genuine question. 

[peterbound]

4 minutes ago, Savannah said:

Do you want an honest discussion or more like a safe space?

Not mocking, it's an genuine question. 

Ha, you must be new.  

 

I'm not a safe space kind of guy.  Fire away. 

[Jo498]

Compassion is a virtue although traditionally more associated with females, some "masculists" think that a women/leftie coalition ruined western civ because they favor compassion over justice (the "old strict justice", not contemporary "social justice").

But what do you mean with skill and strength? physical, bodily strength or "willpower", "strength of character"? And which skill or skills? I occasionally looked at the "Art of Manliness" site and my response is usually mild amusement.

Of course it is good to have a lot of skills (for both genders) but it is also very dependent on culture and background. And not everyone can be good at everything. A trivial case: I consider myself a fairly mediocre driver and I do not like to drive (both rather unmanly). But driving stick shift is not a special skill in Europe because this is the standard way. And I have also frequently started cars with lousy batteries or other defects by pushing or rolling downhill. (Both these skills were featured on AoM blog/website a few years ago.)

[butterbumps!]

11 hours ago, peterbound said:

Gorilla Mindset

What led you to choose this book?   I'm curious what your thoughts about it were going in and then after reading it?

[The BlackBear]

I've never yet been able to truly define masculinity to my satisfaction. If it was purely about having the physical traits associated with maleness, I'd be more comfortable with it. But it encompasses a much more murky mindset-gender-role space that is much harder to define in a healthy way.

On a related note I think it's quite interesting that one of the most successful TV shows of recent years was Breaking Bad, a show entirely about Masculinity, about not having it, and then building it primarily in a toxic form. I think a lot of people responded to that whether consciously or not. But the show never really had any answers, Walt's story ended badly, but it didn't offer an alternative that I could see.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

10 hours ago, peterbound said:

For me, I think, this idea has lead to toxic masculinity, and increasing rates of depression in men.  There is a difference, and they do have roles to play in society, when we reject that, we reject how we are hard wired.  This fucks us up, methinks. 

There's a lot in this statement to unpack.

Do you mean that there aren't enough men playing "traditionally masculine" roles in society? I guess that's true, but what can you do about that? Factory work is getting killed by improving automation (not just human level ai, but more sophisticated programmable manufacturing equipment as well). Stevedores and teamsters were already gutted by containerized shipping. Truck drivers will probably be replaced by driverless trucks relatively soon. Construction work is seasonal and often dependent on unsustainable bubbles. Not every one can be a badass firefighter, police officer, or infantryman. I think to adapt to the future, we'd have to not think of baristas, or yoga instructors, or data entry specialists as any less "manly."

Or do you mean that, in general, men prefer certain roles and women prefer other roles. I have some sympathy to to this idea. But I don't think that should be mutually exclusive with the idea that a lot of people are nevertheless uncomfortable in these traditional gender roles. I mean you can be a Navy SEAL, and your wife can stay at home taking care of the kids if that makes the two of you happy. But if your son wants to work in theater and your daughter wants to be like her daddy, you should be supportive.

I don't have data on this, but it seems to me that it's actually societies that are more bound by traditional gender roles which suffer more from toxic masculinity and increasing rates of depression among men. It's the poor urban and rural communities in the US, or Middle Eastern immigrant communities in Europe, not the weirdos in Berlin who are having this trouble. Maybe it's like Mr Miyagi said, " Walk on road, hm? Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later get squish just like grape. Here, karate, same thing. Either you karate do "yes" or karate do "no." You karate do "guess so," just like grape. Understand? "

[Datepalm]

It seems like a lot of this is just 'How to be an Adult'. Or How to be a complete, decent, functioning, happy, well-adjusted person playing a positive role in the lives of others while also being ok with oneself: for guys. The same questions of finding fullfilling work, having non-toxic relationships, etc.

I'm honestly struggling to find a strict gender component to that. If I think of my peer group, the conversations around the big life issues sound pretty much the same from both men and women, or rather span a very similar spectrum. I think it may get more complicated going forward as kids start coming along and labour divisions might start sneaking up on people. And then again, maybe not.

The only time I can remember encoutering any kind of masculine-anxiety was in the army, where being in a more combat-y role has a strong masculine connotation and a few guys who could have been in a 'tougher' unit were placed in our unit due to various bureaucratic movement consideration. That was tough on some, more so, I think, than on the girls who had had aspirations to a more 'girly' army job. They didn't like giving it up, but it didn't mess with their idea of their identity. (Also, we were all 19. We got over it.)

[Jo498]

51 minutes ago, The BlackBear said:

On a related note I think it's quite interesting that one of the most successful TV shows of recent years was Breaking Bad, a show entirely about Masculinity, about not having it, and then building it primarily in a toxic form. I think a lot of people responded to that whether consciously or not. But the show never really had any answers, Walt's story ended badly, but it didn't offer an alternative that I could see.

Walter White is a caring husband and father and a provider for his family. He has had bad luck (or to some extent was swindled by his former colleagues) because with his intelligence, abilities and work ethic he should really fare better than having to work a second job at a car wash but I don't quite see how he could be described as lacking masculinity before he turns into "Heisenberg".

Now Jesse can probably still be seen as an adolescent (no idea how old he is in the beginning, early 20s or even younger?). He lacks most of traditional virtues: he is irresponsible, lazy, womanizing, using drugs etc. He gets a little better once he realizes that he does well at meth cooking and shows care for the son of one of his girlfriends.

The most traditionally "manly" man in BB might be Hank. This character borders on parody sometimes but several situations show how difficult things can become in a "manly" job for a supposedly very masculine man, even before his injury.

[Altherion]

11 hours ago, peterbound said:

For me, I think, this idea has lead to toxic masculinity, and increasing rates of depression in men.  There is a difference, and they do have roles to play in society, when we reject that, we reject how we are hard wired.  This fucks us up, methinks. 

This is possible, but it is really difficult to find evidence of it. Part of the problem is practical: if you try to bring up this type of differences between men and women in American academia, you are going to have problems. However, that is not worst of it. Even if you did find such evidence, it would at best be of the "On average..." variety. If you split 300 million human beings into two groups of roughly equal size, then no matter your criteria for splitting, there will be tremendous variation within each group -- including even in properties where there are acknowledged physical differences of the "On average..." type.

For example, consider physical strength. It is known that on average and at the extremes, men are stronger than women and that this is a biological difference (i.e. it is not due to upbringing). However, there exist women who are stronger than 95%+ of all men. There is no way to build a meritocratic society which excludes them from roles where strength is important. The cognitive differences are even worse because, even if one could prove that they're biological rather than social, they tend to be smaller in magnitude than those in physical strength and thus individual variation mostly overwhelms them.

[Theda Baratheon]

10 hours ago, Arkhangel said:

I think the idea that gender should shape a person's personality is bullshit, frankly. There's nothing innately masculine about strength, skill or compassion; there's nothing innately feminine about gentleness, or thoughtfulness or being good with people. These are all things which all people can and should aspire to be regardless of their gender. The fact that 'masculine' and 'feminine' are so difficult to define points to the fact that they are groundless stereotypes which have mostly just made a lot of people unhappy, in my opinion. Let's smash them.

I just totally agree with this, to be honest. 

I think it's the idea that men have to be a certain way, and the strictness of that which leads to depression in men and toxic masculinity. 

It's telling that a significant amount of the most critically acclaimed dramas of the last decade; Breaking Bad, The Wire, Mad Men, Sopranos all deal with Men and Masculinity. 

Like Karra was saying, classical masculinity, in terms of ancient Greece would see Heroes who were physically very strong but who would openly weep when upset, who would have romantic and sexual relationships with both men and women - which I see as positives, and then the complete disregard of women unless they are the asexual born Athena, which is obviously a negative. 

I just think all the little ideas of how men should be; stoic = emotionally stunted; strong = can lead to violence - can be so harmful. 

I don't see anything wrong with physically fit/healthy men who work a trade, enjoy sports etc - it's just that I don't think this should be exclusively a male thing. 

I think it would just be better if people thought in terms of 'adult' like others have mentioned. Not just how to be a MAN. How to be a WOMAN. I just think it's bullshit and I see this society progressing in a way where traditionally masculine roles are fading, because that's necessary - the decreasing of certain jobs for example

I just think for all the biologically differences between men and women, that the fact remains, to me, that there doesn't need to be such a huge difference between them, and I don't believe in some attributes being purely male and some being purely female. 

I'm in the middle of writing a uni essay so my brain is totally garbled but the essay is looking at two key figures found within the four branches of the mabinogion; the welsh arthurian esque legends and there are many characters which fit neat little tropes; maidens and knights ect, but there's physically strong and able, competent, politically savvy, intelligent women and strong and brave knights who weep and love - I just think it's so unhelpful to add to the belief that women must be one thing and men must be another. 

 

[The BlackBear]

12 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

Walter White is a caring husband and father and a provider for his family. He has had bad luck (or to some extent was swindled by his former colleagues) because with his intelligence, abilities and work ethic he should really fare better than having to work a second job at a car wash but I don't quite see how he could be described as lacking masculinity before he turns into "Heisenberg".

But Walt clearly feels insecure about his masculinity. I don't really want to turn this into discussion of the show, but the early seasons are based around him feeling like he's at the bottom of the heap. He buys into the notion of being a man, and more specifically feels like he isn't one.