Masculinity

[Iskaral Pust]

21 minutes ago, The BlackBear said:

But Walt clearly feels insecure about his masculinity. I don't really want to turn this into discussion of the show, but the early seasons are based around him feeling like he's at the bottom of the heap. He buys into the notion of being a man, and more specifically feels like he isn't one.

I completely agree and posted the same in the thread on the show.  Walt was emasculated by his macho/neanderthal brother-in-law, by his son worshiping Hank, by his son being physically disabled, by the wealth and success of his former friend and ex-lover, by his low socio-economic status, by disrespectful students, by his bullying boss at the car-wash, and by his wife.  The first few episodes just ram home his emasculation and his central arc is about regaining power, respect/fear, success and dominance over others.

[Jo498]

32 minutes ago, Altherion said:

For example, consider physical strength. It is known that on average and at the extremes, men are stronger than women and that this is a biological difference (i.e. it is not due to upbringing). However, there exist women who are stronger than 95%+ of all men. There is no way to build a meritocratic society which excludes them from roles where strength is important. The cognitive differences are even worse because, even if one could prove that they're biological rather than social, they tend to be smaller in magnitude than those in physical strength and thus individual variation mostly overwhelms them.

But to my knowledge what has usually been done in jobs with rather severe strength requirements like firefighters etc. is not to keep the old threshold and admit the 5 women in 100 who were able to pass it. Rather the thresholds have been lowered considerably so that of the number of women interested in the jobs a few could be admitted (I guess the ones stronger than 95% of all males prefer to be professional athletes...) and it did not look as if no women were admitted because of discrimination. Sometimes with deplorable results; in the last few years two or more young women serving in the German navy had fatal accidents that seemed clearly due to their lack of physical ability for what they were supposed to do.

[Jo498]

4 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

I completely agree and posted the same in the thread on the show.  Walt was emasculated by his macho/neanderthal brother-in-law, by his son worshiping Hank, by his son being physically disabled, by the wealth and success of his former friend and ex-lover, by his low socio-economic status, by disrespectful students, by his bullying boss at the car-wash, and by his wife.  The first few episodes just ram home his emasculation and his central arc is about regaining power, respect/fear, success and dominance over others.

o.k., maybe he feels like that. He might fail according to a macho image and it seems obvious to any viewer that his socio-economic status is grossly unfair. But if one thinks about traditional masculine duties of a husband and father (very different from contemporary macho image) he is not doing so bad. He is doing his best and it is not his fault that he fell on bad luck and/or was duped by Schwartz. Unlike Hank he has children and in my recollection the marriage of Skyler-Walt is better than Hank-Marie (but as the latter seems have so many elements of satire, I would not overstress this).

I think of the show far more as demonstrating what is wrong with the world/society in rather general terms. 

[Iskaral Pust]

1 minute ago, Jo498 said:

o.k., maybe he feels like that. He might fail according to a macho image and it seems obvious to any viewer that his socio-economic status is grossly unfair. But if one thinks about traditional masculine duties of a husband and father (very different from contemporary macho image) he is not doing so bad. He is doing his best and it is not his fault that he fell on bad luck and/or was duped by Schwartz. Unlike Hank he has children and in my recollection the marriage of Skyler-Walt is better than Hank-Marie (but as the latter seems have so many elements of satire, I would not overstress this).

I think of the show far more as demonstrating what is wrong with the world/society in rather general terms. 

I agree with that.  Walt tried to convince himself that by any modern, enlightened notion of masculinity he was a good man, husband and father.  But deep down there was a nagging lust for power, success and dominance.  That may be his darker side unrelated to masculinity, and I prefer that interpretation, but the early episodes made such a big deal of his emasculation and how he rebelled against it: the near-rape of Skyler, the confrontation with the car-wash boss, his growing sneer toward Hank (after the fear passes); that I have to accept the writers initially meant for his arc to be about reclaiming his more traditional sense of masculinity.

And there is a deeper question of whether his society was bombarding him a more poisonous view of masculinity.  I thought the early scenes of Hank bullying Walt and everyone treating Walt, the milquetoast egghead, with pity and disdain were very exaggerated, but there wasn't much exaggeration in the perception of a submissive school-teacher moonlighting in a minimum-wage menial job.  A man who provides for his family should be respected, but part of the reason why he needed a second job was because he didn't want Skyler to return to work (where she had an affair/flirtation with her boss), which is evidence of his own reach for traditional masculinity.

It was a complex story and I think the lens of masculinity was very exaggerated to serve the plot, but Walt's own attitude to masculinity was at least as damaging as the social views around him.

[Kelli Fury]

I think part of the reason the idea of masculinity has become so toxic is that it's so confining. If we celebrate masculinity (as society absolutely does and if you doubt that's still true compare reactions if you call a man "one of the girls" versus a woman "one of the boys" One is likely to feel complimented, the other insulted). Gender roles are a societal construct and they are harmful to everyone. You can't unhitch the idea of masculinity from the centuries of male supremacy at its foundation. By calling these qualities male, you exclude women, and you degrade men for whom they don't fit. I know it's often not intentional, but that's a thing that gets internalized.

 

I had a very isolated childhood and my dad raised us (two girls and a gay son). My mom wasn't really around and I didn't really know any adult women until I was one myself. My dad was a real archetypal construction worker dad type and he just raised us the way he was raised. That we were not straight boys like he had been was never, ever brought up. We wore tiny Carharrts and we learned to weld and work on cars. He taught us all the skills and values I'd imagine the men here learned from your dads. As an adult I am constantly, endlessly called masculine, often called unfeminine- by both genders. But I don't think that I am. I am female, I feel wholeheartedly correct and comfortable in my gender. But this idea that masculinity has a monopoly on rationality and self reliance and stoicism means I am belittled in my gender nearly every day- be it by women who are trying to make fun of my interests or by men who want to compliment me on being "not like other girls" I was extremely blessed to be raised in an environment where my gender was not a factor at all, and cursed to live as an adult in one where it is a constant hindrance. That hindrance comes from the ingrained celebration of the "masculine"

[lessthanluke]

Why do you feel the need to strive for masculinity if you don't mind me asking Peter? 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

I also have a son (but he's much smaller), and I guess I am approaching the same problem from a slightly different perspective:  how do I raise my son to be a good human being unfettered by the expectations of his (assumed for the moment, as he is almost 3) gender.  That is, he is going to be exposed to a lot of the toxic stuff, how do I get him to ignore that, and value the good stuff as well as that which is traditionally seen as "feminine."  At the end of the day, what I want is for my little people (boy and girls) to grow up to be big people who are reasonably happy, can support themselves, and leave the world a better place (even in small ways) than they found it.  And I think reading about "masculinity" and the expectations that are imposed on young men as a result of the construct is a worthy exercise.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 I think there are some arenas where the sort of masculinity you're describing is still accepted or even prized. Like yourself, my father was a fireman, and he certainly embodied many of the traits you're talking about. This was a bit of a different time (he retired in the early 90's methinks) but I know that he had a favorable reputation among his workmates as being a sort of "fireman's fireman" if you will. Another area where I think these sorts of traits are welcomed is in the arena of organized sport. I'm in a local PAL type basketball league, and I find that most folks who play in this league appreciate and even seek out competitive teammates. I don't consider myself to be particularly masculine (at least not in the way that you seem to define it), but this sort of competition seems to bring out my more aggressive nature. I'm a big guy (6'3, 280lbs) and in most situations I'm very conscious of my size and strength. I don't typically enjoy intimidating people in my normal day to day life, so I go to pains to project a friendly, approachable demeanor and the like. This kind of goes out the window when I'm engaged in a physical competition, and I do find that kind of freeing and refreshing. And I have to say that type of aggressive attitude is appreciated by my teammates.

[Datepalm]

Even that doesn't seem terribly masculine to me, in particular. Surely physicality and a degree of aggression are entirely appropriate in a competitive sport - and exhibited pretty much the same by women. I enjoy the hell out of allowing myself to be aggressive and physical in boxing, for example, which I also restrain, you know, all the rest of the time, because its inappropriate in most circumstances - for anyone, of any gender. (I have seen a lot of the situation where women - and particularly girls - have to kind of let go and relax a bit before they let themselves be aggressive, competitive and outgoingly physical in situations that call for it - like sports, or military training - but it's always seemed a social constraint to me to a laughably obvious degree. You can literally watch that self-consciousness of 'oh no, I'm being so loud and taking up so much space and it's so silly and mannish' melt away in about ten minutes of girls playing a team sport.)

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

6 minutes ago, Datepalm said:

Even that doesn't seem terribly masculine to me, in particular. Surely physicality and a degree of aggression are entirely appropriate in a competitive sport - and exhibited pretty much the same by women. I enjoy the hell out of allowing myself to be aggressive and physical in boxing, for example, which I also restrain, you know, all the rest of the time, because its inappropriate in most circumstances - for anyone, of any gender. (I have seen a lot of the situation where women - and particularly girls - have to kind of let go and relax a bit before they let themselves be aggressive, competitive and outgoingly physical in situations that call for it - like sports, or military training - but it's always seemed a social constraint to me to a laughably obvious degree. You can literally watch that self-consciousness of 'oh no, I'm being so loud and taking up so much space and it's so silly and mannish' melt away in about ten minutes of girls playing a team sport.)

Oh yeah, absolutely. I'm not suggesting that woman can't embody these qualities. As a matter of fact there are a number of women in the league that I play in that are among the best players in the league. One played Division One College Basketball at a perennial power university. She's an absolute killer on the court. 

I only bring up this sort of thing because the OP seems to bemoaning (to some small degree) the sorts of instances where these traits he's describing are accepted or even prized.

[Theda Baratheon]

Often people think those of us who want to eliminate gender stereotypes hate men. I don't hate men and I think traditionally masculine traits that don't hurt anyone should be celebrated...I just don't think they have to necessarily be only associated with men. It's fucking stifling. Human beings can be any number of traits that ad up to a fully functioning human being. 

You can be affectionate, compassionate and also really love competitive sports and be a man. You can be absolutely not maternal at all, enjoy making things with your hands, and then cry at a sad film and be a woman. I probably didn't use great examples, I just don't think a set list of traits should be held up for men or women. 

ALL HUMANS should strive to be strong and compassionate. Those traits can totally be displayed in different ways. (Physical strength, emotional and mental strength) and empathy, listening to others or physically acting to help others. It just seems like total stifling B.S to have one template for the ideal Man or the Ideal Woman and I know that sort of idea makes people feel uncomfortable but in my opinion it does more harm than good to have these templates to strive for, or feel like you need to strive for and ultimately never embody. 

Celebrate all aspects of someone's character and allow men and women to be exactly who they want to be regardless or near obsolete gender stereotypes. 

Doesn't mean I don't think some men shouldn't display all the traits of traditional masculinity (as long as they're not hurting anyone and even though toxic masculinity is a thing - the striving for an ideal state of masculinity to the detriment of yourself and others - I also think there's nothing wrong with a man being physically strong, a protector of the family, etc) is that is what works for him and his family. What I think is harmful is when a man doesn't live up to this and then hates himself or others for it or when a woman displays these traits and is made to feel alien for it. 

[Ice Queen]

This may or may not be relevant, but are any of you familiar with the work of Davis Buss? He's an evolutionary psychologist who has written reams on why we've evolved the way we have, and why men and women think and act differently--and it's because we experience different things. For example, men will never know how it feels to be pregnant and go through childbirth and nursing a baby, along with all the other risks and dilemmas that come with that vulnerability. So we looked for mates who would stick around and help us out until the kids were old enough to fend for themselves at age 7 (hence the 7 year itch). Men, on the other hand, could never know for sure whether or not a child was actually his (until very, very recently), so they evolved short term mating strategies to pass on their genes to more children. 

That's the way it's been for eons, and it's not limited to humans but to most other species in one form or another. 

I'm all for feminism, but there are some things that I don't think the trend towards gender neutral will ever change. I don't think, in the end, that we'll ever have a true gender neutral world. Cultural norms won't change that much, and as one poster said, he and his wife fell into a traditional marriage against their best efforts. From a biological standpoint, hormones won't allow it, especially testosterone.

I'm always a little confused by the term "gender neutral" anyway. I understand what it means, I'm just not sure how it should be applied. I am a woman. I can't say I've ever identified as a male in any way, shape or form...although when we were growing up if none of the girls were around we played with Tonka trucks and played Army with the boys. Does that count?

I think what some people mean by "toxic masculinity" is men who are upset about the power structure and roles being upended--women in particular are filling roles like breadwinner, and they think that means THEIR rights must necessarily be stripped in order to give women equality at home or in the workplace. There's nothing as frightening to them as a woman who is not only independent of them, but doesn't need them for security--and that falls squarely within Buss' hypothesis. Men brought home the bacon and acted as protector, not only for the woman but for her children--for hundreds of thousands of years because women were too vulnerable (pregnancy, very young children) to bring home their own. It doesn't work that way any more, and you can't change evolution and social conditioning that quickly. In other words, women have changed. Some men haven't. 

That being said, what exactly is masculinity? To me, it's being a decent human being first and foremost. Further than that, I can't answer except to say that there are traits shared by both men and women, and men shouldn't be demonized for being emotional or compassionate, any more than women should be excoriated for being strong and intelligent. 

[Ice Queen]

1 hour ago, Datepalm said:

Even that doesn't seem terribly masculine to me, in particular. Surely physicality and a degree of aggression are entirely appropriate in a competitive sport - and exhibited pretty much the same by women. I enjoy the hell out of allowing myself to be aggressive and physical in boxing, for example, which I also restrain, you know, all the rest of the time, because its inappropriate in most circumstances - for anyone, of any gender. (I have seen a lot of the situation where women - and particularly girls - have to kind of let go and relax a bit before they let themselves be aggressive, competitive and outgoingly physical in situations that call for it - like sports, or military training - but it's always seemed a social constraint to me to a laughably obvious degree. You can literally watch that self-consciousness of 'oh no, I'm being so loud and taking up so much space and it's so silly and mannish' melt away in about ten minutes of girls playing a team sport.)

Funny you should mention this. We were having a discussion at a family event over the holidays, and my mother made the comment that it's much easier to raise boys than girls. I have three brothers and one sister. My mother said she could throw the boys out into the yard and let them fight it out--which they did, and in 10 minutes were best friends again. She couldn't do that with my sister and me because we couldn't bring ourselves to do that to each other...so we were always made to go to our rooms away from each other, and days later we were still mad. The ironic thing is that we were the athletes and took out our aggression on the court or the field. 

[Savannah]

 

7 hours ago, peterbound said:

I'm not a safe space kind of guy.  Fire away. 

Just because people can't come to agree on a single definition of masculinity doesn't 
mean it's a vague concept that can't be grasped, or just a fickle social construct. 
 
Who could define love adequately?

If strength, skill and compassion mean masculinity to you, Peterbound, hold on to that. That's what it means to you and people should respect that. 
Of course women can hold those traits too, so what. 

For me femininity means grace, skill and compassion.
Of course men can hold those traits. Also, try showing grace without strength, you can't.
That's what's so fun about this, being human, we have all these overlapping and good qualities we can appreciate. 

As a father most important thing is that you are comfortable with your masculinity,
what ever that happens to mean to you. 
'The theory of masculinity' comes secondary, kids adjust and learn in a practical way. 

Anything can turn toxic, even masculinity. Femininity can also turn wildly toxic. 
That's where trouble comes, from men whose masculinity has turned toxic or from men who see themselves lacking in traits they deem masculine. 
Or, from women who despise men and masculinity. 
It's all about being comfortable and confident. That doesn't mean it's necessarily simple. 

Be confident and unapologetic with your masculinity and your son will, for sure, learn how to be comfortable with his masculinity. 

After all, masculinity as well as femininity is such a fun and a positive thing!

[Balefont]

14 hours ago, Arkhangel said:

I think the idea that gender should shape a person's personality is bullshit, frankly. There's nothing innately masculine about strength, skill or compassion; there's nothing innately feminine about gentleness, or thoughtfulness or being good with people. These are all things which all people can and should aspire to be regardless of their gender. The fact that 'masculine' and 'feminine' are so difficult to define points to the fact that they are groundless stereotypes which have mostly just made a lot of people unhappy, in my opinion. Let's smash them.

^^this

[Weeping Sore]

You see, there's He-Man, and then there's Barbie. He-Man wears boots, furry underwear and a harness but he gets a magic sword. Barbie gets anorexia but she gets to change her clothes.

Maybe it comes down to whether you want to ride on Battlecat or in a red convertible?

[DunderMifflin]

6 minutes ago, Weeping Sore said:

You see, there's He-Man, and then there's Barbie. He-Man wears boots, furry underwear and a harness but he gets a magic sword. Barbie gets anorexia but she gets to change her clothes.

Maybe it comes down to whether you want to ride on Battlecat or in a red convertible?

Both of these characters gained power from extreme gender stereotypes.

If Barbie has anorexia, He-Man has a steroid addiction.

Ken will never be as powerful as Barbie.

He-Man had a She-Ra counterpart who never got as popular as him.

 

[Datepalm]

Oh no you didn't. She-Ra was freaking awesome. And - at least here - waaaay more popular than He-Man. I don't we even had He-Man.

[Theda Baratheon]

37 minutes ago, Datepalm said:

Oh no you didn't. She-Ra was freaking awesome. And - at least here - waaaay more popular than He-Man. I don't we even had He-Man.

She-Ra was ACE. I had She-Ra bed covers and they were purple with her riding a mount and I'm still not over my mum chucking those away...

[Savannah]

5 hours ago, Jo498 said:

But to my knowledge what has usually been done in jobs with rather severe strength requirements like firefighters etc. is not to keep the old threshold and admit the 5 women in 100 who were able to pass it. Rather the thresholds have been lowered considerably so that of the number of women interested in the jobs a few could be admitted (I guess the ones stronger than 95% of all males prefer to be professional athletes...) and it did not look as if no women were admitted because of discrimination. Sometimes with deplorable results; in the last few years two or more young women serving in the German navy had fatal accidents that seemed clearly due to their lack of physical ability for what they were supposed to do.

What happened after? Were the assignments readjusted?