The Long Night's Watch - the Undead Companions of the Last Hero

[LmL]

10 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

Indeed.

(quotes about the wildlings carving faces in the trees south of the wall)

I hadn't forgotten about this, but the question is can trees other than weirs be inhabited by greenseers? King's Landing's Godswood would only be 300 years old or less, so the people who carved the face in that oak were not greenseers. It's just a face to remind people of a weirwood heart tree. 

I really am torn... if anything I think oak trees might be able to do it. But I am not sure that's going to come into the story. 

10 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

 

There's also this bowl:

I can't believe I forgot to mention that bloody bowl in my series.  I love that bowl, and I've written about it in regards to Jojen paste foreshadowing. (TLDR - Jojen hangs out in the 'bole' of an oak, sickly and pale faced, just before they get to bloodraven's cave. It's Jojen in a wooden bole / bowl.)  That's some pretty good "the last hero's 12 were skinchangers or greenseers" clue isn't it?

 

10 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

Hmmm.... this is my 2000th post on the forums... very special number for me.

Woo hoo! I am honored to host it ser!

[Isobel Harper]

6 hours ago, LmL said:

As for Waynwood, something just jumped out at me when looking at their sigil - it has eight spokes, one of which is broken. That could be 8 wanderers turning to seven symbolism.  The breaking of the eighth wanderer, the moon, was the cause of the breaking of the cycle of the seasons, so it works well. And black on green is green dragon symbolism, or at least, that is what I have found when green and black appear together.  Usually it is a green thing embedded in black, but here it is the opposite. They are from Ironoaks, which makes me think they have Ironwood trees there, and thus black wood, and hence their black wagon wheel. That aligns them with the "Black Wood" line of symbolism which I have not entirely finished sussing out yet.

Sansa in the Vale represents a piece of fire moon in the ice moon.  Perhaps Arya in Braavos represents a black meteor in the green sea?  We've seen a sister represented in the other sister's chapters before.  Think Arya traveling to Braavos on the Titan's Daughter. 

6 hours ago, LmL said:

 

As for Harry, I am not sure what his symbolism means. It's too much - wagon wheel, red and white diamonds, Arryn moon and falcon.  It means everything. I dunno. 

Well, DotD 2.0 is supposed to occur soon, and his sigil somewhat parallels Rhaenyra’s.  Rhaenyra had Velaryon in one of her quarters, and Velaryons are the "Lord of the Tides" and sea symbols. So, in both Harry and Rhaenyra’s sigils, there's a symbol of "waning" moon/tide.  I mean, the waxing and waning tide is controlled by the moon anyway.  House Velaryon's power also "waned" after the DotD.

Aegon II used the traditional Targaryen sigil, though a gold instead of red dragon to honor Sunfyre.  Sweetrobin also simply uses the Arryn falcon.  Perhaps we'll see a war between Harry the Heir and Sweetrobin?

 Rhaenyra also had two Targaryen quarters in her sigil.  That's one half dedicated to a winged beast; Harry also has one half of his sigil dedicated to a winged animal.  And if you think about it, the Arryn sigil sort of looks like Viserion flying in a day's sky.  Viserion and the Arryn falcon are even both described alternately as cream or white. 

Minor Winds spoiler

Spoiler

"Dust motes" are seen floating/swimming/dancing in light several times throughout the series.  Only twice are they depicted as having color.  The first instance is in Game when Daenerys sees red, green, and gold floating around her eggs like "courtiers around a king."  The second instance is in Sansa's spoiler chapter when she sees GOLD motes dancing in the light. 

So, Viserion very well could show up in the Vale in Winds.  Or do the gold motes represent the cream/white winged knight on his way to the Gates of the Moon?  

Basically, I've come across a lot of Viserion/dawn dragon symbolism and I don't know what refers to Viserion specifically or what to a "Dawn dragon people" that potentially escaped (from Valyria, Qarth, or Asshai?) and landed in Westeros and are the ancestors of the Daynes.

We spoke of this some with regard to Aurane Waters.  Running away with dromonds (a symbol of dragons) parallels Ned "running away" with Jon Snow (another kind of dragon) as well as potentially these "Dawn dragon people" immigrating to Westeros.  The Greek term "aurion" (a term which GRRM uses as a name in AWoIaF) is a cognate of the name Aurane  "Aurion" literally means "on the morning breeze" though is translated as "on the morrow" or "tomorrow."  Given that Westeros once suffered the Long Night, "tomorrow" deals with the Dawn, literally and figuratively.  I also came across one source that states that Aurane can stem from "Aura" (morning breeze) OR "Aurora" (gold(en), dawn).  (I'd be surprised if Aura and Aurora aren't related etymologically anyway.)  Anywho, will Aurane try to steal Viserion, or is this all some sort of echo? 

And if you think of Sansa's claim to Harrenhal, she can claim it through her Whent heritage OR as LF's bastard/only child.  A bastard Whent sigil would be 9 yellow bats and black.  Looks sort of Targaryen, yes?  LF running away with Sansa echoes Ned running away with Jon.  An inversed echo anyway - Ned truly intends to rescue Jon, whereas LF "rescues" Sansa for her claim to WF/The North more or less.  Again, will Sansa ride Viserion?  Or (echoing Rosie whose maidenhead was being sold for a gold dragon in Feast) will her husband or lover (whoever takes her maidenhead) ride Viserion?   Or is Sansa simply part of the "Dawn dragon people" echo?

Touching back on Harry's sigil, perhaps it is a colorful depiction of what this "Dawn dragon people" did.  

The Hardyng red/white diamonds: They rescued/ran away with red meteor/"blood of the dragon" persons or children to save them, perhaps from dying and/or being sacrificed.  They're "diamonds," so those being rescued were likely precious to them.

The Waynwood broken wheel: The moon "breaking" and causing the seasons to go wonky and cause the Long Night, which ultimately led them to flee in the first place.  (Nice catch, on the eighth spoke representing the moon, by the way!)

The Arryn falcon: The white dragon,  this "Dawn dragon people" who were the ancestors of the Daynes. 

[Isobel Harper]

6 hours ago, LmL said:

I hadn't forgotten about this, but the question is can trees other than weirs be inhabited by greenseers? King's Landing's Godswood would only be 300 years old or less, so the people who carved the face in that oak were not greenseers. It's just a face to remind people of a weirwood heart tree. 

I really am torn... if anything I think oak trees might be able to do it. But I am not sure that's going to come into the story. 

Yup!

 The one-armed woman died at evenfall. Gendry and Cutjack dug her grave on a hillside beneath a weeping willow. When the wind blew, Arya thought she could hear the long trailing branches whispering, "Please. Please. Please." The little hairs on the back of her neck rose, and she almost ran from the graveside.  ACoK, Arya III

If a peasant woman's soul can go into a willow, why not a greenseer? 

[Bluetiger]

From ADwD prologue:

Quote

The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that's in it, he thought, exulting. A hundred ravens took to the air, cawing as they felt him pass. A great elk trumpeted, unsettling the children clinging to his back. A sleeping direwolf raised his head to snarl at empty air. Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on, searching for his own, for One Eye, Sly, and Stalker, for his pack. His wolves would save him, he told himself.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

What other story is that? 

[Pain killer Jane]

9 hours ago, LmL said:

Other-rides-wayn. In another Martin story the Ice Dragon constellation is called the Ice Wagon, and it carries souls to the afterlife. Same deal with the blue star that is the eye of the rider - that hasn't changed. So House Wayn's sigil is four wagon wheels, white on blue and blue on white countercharged - that's ice wagon symbolism. And dude's name is "Otherides Wayn" - Other rides wayn.

A steward is something of a custodian, kind of like the ferryman perhaps. Riverrun is an interesting place in terms of symbolism, and one we haven't talked about much on my threads actually. It's got an ice / fire thing going on and obvious a ton of water symbolism... it's described as an island of fire though when Thoros sees a vision of the Lannisters attacking it, which makes it akin to the Isle of Faces and the fire moon. 

That's awesome. And yeah you are right that we don't mention Riverrun enough. Do you think you will do a piece on it? 

[Bluetiger]

Quote

(Wikitionary)

wayn ‎(plural wayns)

1. Obsolete form of wain.
2. Obsolete form of vein.

AdjectiveEdit

wayn ‎(comparative more wayn, superlativemost wayn)

1. Obsolete form of vain.

The second one seems to be interesting.

[Isobel Harper]

4 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Sansa in the Vale represents a piece of fire moon in the ice moon.  Perhaps Arya in Braavos represents a black meteor in the green sea?  We've seen a sister represented in the other sister's chapters before.  Think Arya traveling to Braavos on the Titan's Daughter. 

Well, DotD 2.0 is supposed to occur soon, and his sigil somewhat parallels Rhaenyra’s.  Rhaenyra had Velaryon in one of her quarters, and Velaryons are the "Lord of the Tides" and sea symbols. So, in both Harry and Rhaenyra’s sigils, there's a symbol of "waning" moon/tide.  I mean, the waxing and waning tide is controlled by the moon anyway.  House Velaryon's power also "waned" after the DotD.

Aegon II used the traditional Targaryen sigil, though a gold instead of red dragon to honor Sunfyre.  Sweetrobin also simply uses the Arryn falcon.  Perhaps we'll see a war between Harry the Heir and Sweetrobin?

 Rhaenyra also had two Targaryen quarters in her sigil.  That's one half dedicated to a winged beast; Harry also has one half of his sigil dedicated to a winged animal.  And if you think about it, the Arryn sigil sort of looks like Viserion flying in a day's sky.  Viserion and the Arryn falcon are even both described alternately as cream or white. 

Minor Winds spoiler

  Reveal hidden contents

"Dust motes" are seen floating/swimming/dancing in light several times throughout the series.  Only twice are they depicted as having color.  The first instance is in Game when Daenerys sees red, green, and gold floating around her eggs like "courtiers around a king."  The second instance is in Sansa's spoiler chapter when she sees GOLD motes dancing in the light. 

So, Viserion very well could show up in the Vale in Winds.  Or do the gold motes represent the cream/white winged knight on his way to the Gates of the Moon?  

Basically, I've come across a lot of Viserion/dawn dragon symbolism and I don't know what refers to Viserion specifically or what to a "Dawn dragon people" that potentially escaped (from Valyria, Qarth, or Asshai?) and landed in Westeros and are the ancestors of the Daynes.

We spoke of this some with regard to Aurane Waters.  Running away with dromonds (a symbol of dragons) parallels Ned "running away" with Jon Snow (another kind of dragon) as well as potentially these "Dawn dragon people" immigrating to Westeros.  The Greek term "aurion" (a term which GRRM uses as a name in AWoIaF) is a cognate of the name Aurane  "Aurion" literally means "on the morning breeze" though is translated as "on the morrow" or "tomorrow."  Given that Westeros once suffered the Long Night, "tomorrow" deals with the Dawn, literally and figuratively.  I also came across one source that states that Aurane can stem from "Aura" (morning breeze) OR "Aurora" (gold(en), dawn).  (I'd be surprised if Aura and Aurora aren't related etymologically anyway.)  Anywho, will Aurane try to steal Viserion, or is this all some sort of echo? 

And if you think of Sansa's claim to Harrenhal, she can claim it through her Whent heritage OR as LF's bastard/only child.  A bastard Whent sigil would be 9 yellow bats and black.  Looks sort of Targaryen, yes?  LF running away with Sansa echoes Ned running away with Jon.  An inversed echo anyway - Ned truly intends to rescue Jon, whereas LF "rescues" Sansa for her claim to WF/The North more or less.  Again, will Sansa ride Viserion?  Or (echoing Rosie whose maidenhead was being sold for a gold dragon in Feast) will her husband or lover (whoever takes her maidenhead) ride Viserion?   Or is Sansa simply part of the "Dawn dragon people" echo?

Touching back on Harry's sigil, perhaps it is a colorful depiction of what this "Dawn dragon people" did.  

The Hardyng red/white diamonds: They rescued/ran away with red meteor/"blood of the dragon" persons or children to save them, perhaps from dying and/or being sacrificed.  They're "diamonds," so those being rescued were likely precious to them.

The Waynwood broken wheel: The moon "breaking" and causing the seasons to go wonky and cause the Long Night, which ultimately led them to flee in the first place.  (Nice catch, on the eighth spoke representing the moon, by the way!)

The Arryn falcon: The white dragon,  this "Dawn dragon people" who were the ancestors of the Daynes. 

Maester, Sam, Gilly, and the babe were transported from the Wall to their ship on a wayn.  If you're gonna have one locale to echo the wintery hell that was the Long Night, it's at the Wall.  Sam & Co. don't travel west and sail south - the shortest route - to Oldtown.  No, they travel around Westeros, stopping in Braavos on the way. 

Think about that.  They're carrying a hidden prince from Essos, through the Stepstones/Arm of Dorne, then west in order to escape a "wintery hell" and to protect kings-blooded people.  If that doesn't echo a proto-Valyrian race fleeing to Westeros for safety, I don't know what does. 

[Bluetiger]

Since we were talking about the Waynwoods, maybe their broken wheel is in fact a reference to Celtic god Taranis and his wheel?

From Wikipedia:

Quote

The wheel, more specifically the chariot wheel with six or eight spokes, was an important symbol in historical Celtic polytheism, apparently associated with a specific god, known as the wheel-god, identified as the sky- sun- or thunder-god, whose name is attested as Taranis by Lucan. Numerous Celtic coins also depict such a wheel. It is thought to correspond to a sun-cult practiced in Bronze Age Europe, the wheel representing the sun.
The half-wheel shown in the Gundestrup"broken wheel" panel also has eight visible spokes.

Symbolic votive wheels were offered at shrines (such as in Alesia), cast in rivers (such as the Seine), buried in tombs or worn asamulets since the Middle Bronze Age. Such "wheel pendants" from the Bronze Age usually had four spokes, and are commonly identified as solar symbols or "sun cross". Artefacts parallel to the Celtic votive wheels or wheel-pendants are the so-called Zierscheiben in a Germanic context. The identification of the Sun with a wheel, or a chariot, has parallels in Germanic, Greek and Vedic mythology (see sun chariot).

There's a smith named Lucan at Harrenhal, which suggests that GRRM is familiar with that Roman poet and historian.

Quote

"Weasel," Weese said that afternoon. "Get to the armory and tell Lucan that Ser Lyonel notched his sword in practice and needs a new one. Here's his mark." He handed her a square of paper. "Be quick about it now, he's to ride with Ser Kevan Lannister.

 

[LmL]

9 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

Since we were talking about the Waynwoods, maybe their broken wheel is in fact a reference to Celtic god Taranis and his wheel?

From Wikipedia:

There's a smith named Lucan at Harrenhal, which suggests that GRRM is familiar with that Roman poet and historian.

 

Lucan has some sort of symbolism heavy scene, if I recall correctly. I'll have to look it up. Smiths who are storm god figures are not exactly in short supply in ASOIAF. 

Now, the idea of associating the Waynwoods with the sun kind of cuts against the "waning moon" implication. As of now it seems like a better moon symbol, I think. Thanks for sharing that, was a cool bit of mythology and symbolism.

[LmL]

15 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

The second one seems to be interesting.

Yes, because vein-wood would be weirwood, the trees that bleed. There's also House Lynderly in the Vale, who live at the snakewood, and they too have a green and black sigil.

[Bluetiger]

I think I should read 'The Golden Bough' by James George Frazer... 

It's over 1300 pages long, so it'll take ages before I find something concerning our topics here, but I think it's worth it...

It has some especially interesting chapters like: 

- The Burning of Human Beings

- The External Soul in Folk Tales

- Balder and the Mistletoe

- The Corn Mother

- Sacrifice of King's Son

- Osiris and the Sun

- The Corn Mother in Many Lands

- The Corn Spirits as Animals

- The Worship of Trees (this one was preview on Google Books)

 

[Bluetiger]

I think I've found yet another Holly vs Oak King metaphor:

Quote

(The Princess and The Queen)

Yet Seasmoke, Vermithor, and Silverwing were accustomed to men and tolerant of their presence. Having once been ridden, they were more accepting of new riders. Vermithor, the Old King’s own dragon, bent his neck to a blacksmith’s bastard, a towering man called Hugh the Hammer or Hard Hugh, whilst a pale-haired man-at-arms named Ulf the White (for his hair) or Ulf the Sot (for his drinking) mounted Silverwing, beloved of Good Queen Alysanne.

(...)

The Two Betrayers felt the need of a king as well … but Daeron Targaryen was not the king they wanted. “We need a strong man to lead us, not a boy,” declared Hard Hugh Hammer. “The throne should be mine.” When Bold Jon Roxton demanded to know by what right he presumed to name himself a king, Lord Hammer answered, “The same right as the Conquerer. A dragon.” And truly, with Vhagar dead at last, the oldest and largest living dragon in all Westeros was Vermithor, once the mount of the Old King, now that of Hard Hugh the bastard. Vermithor was thrice the size of Prince Daeron’s she-dragon Tessarion. No man who glimpsed them together could fail to see that Vermithor was a far more fearsome beast.

Though Hammer’s ambition was unseemly in one born so low, the bastard undeniably possessed some Targaryen blood, and had proved himself fierce in battle and open-handed to those who followed him, displaying the sort of largesse that draws men to leaders as a corpse draws flies. They were the worst sort of men, to be sure: sellswords, robber knights, and like rabble, men of tainted blood and uncertain birth who loved battle for its own sake and lived for rapine and plunder.

The lords and knights of Oldtown and the Reach were offended by the arrogance of the Betrayer’s claim, however, and none more so than Prince Daeron Targaryen himself, who grew so wroth that he threw a cup of wine into Hard Hugh’s face. Whilst Lord White shrugged this off as a waste of good wine, Lord Hammer said, “Little boys should be more mannerly when men are speaking. I think your father did not beat you often enough. Take care I do not make up for his lack.” The Two Betrayers took their leave together, and began to make plans for Hammer’s coronation. When seen the next day, Hard Hugh was wearing a crown of black iron, to the fury of Prince Daeron and his trueborn lords and knights.

One such, Ser Roger Corne, made so bold as to knock the crown off Hammer’s head. “A crown does not make a man a king,” he said. “You should wear a horseshoe on your head, blacksmith.” It was a foolish thing to do. Lord Hugh was not amused. At his command, his men forced Ser Roger to the ground, whereupon the blacksmith’s bastard nailed not one but three horseshoes to the knight’s skull. When Corne’s friends tried to intervene, daggers were drawn and swords unsheathed, leaving three men dead and a dozen wounded.

That was more than Prince Daeron’s loyalist lords were prepared to suffer. Lord Unwin Peake and a somewhat reluctant Hobert Hightower summoned eleven other lords and landed knights to a secret council in the cellar of a Tumbleton inn, to discuss what might be done to curb the arrogance of the baseborn dragonriders. The plotters agreed that it would be a simple matter to dispose of White, who was drunk more oft than not and had never shown any great prowess at arms. Hammer posed a greater danger, for of late he was surrounded day and night by lickspittles, camp followers, and sellswords eager for his favor. It would serve them little to kill White and leave Hammer alive, Lord Peake pointed out; Hard Hugh must needs die first. Long and loud were the arguments in the inn beneath the sign of the Bloody Caltrops, as the lords discussed how this might best be accomplished.

(...)

The next morning, Ser Hobert Hightower called upon him, to thrash out the details of their assault upon King’s Landing. He brought with him two casks of wine as a gift, one of Dornish red and one of Arbor gold. Though Ulf the Sot had never tasted a wine he did not like, he was known to be partial to the sweeter vintages. No doubt Ser Hobert hoped to sip the sour red whilst Lord Ulf quaffed down the Arbor gold. Yet something about Hightower’s manner—he was sweating and stammering and too hearty by half, the squire who served them testified later—pricked White’s suspicions. Wary, he commanded that the Dornish red be set aside for later, and insisted Ser Hobert share the Arbor gold with him.

History has little good to say about Ser Hobert Hightower, but no man can question the manner of his death. Rather than betray his fellow Caltrops, he let the squire fill his cup, drank deep, and asked for more. Once he saw Hightower drink, Ulf the Sot lived up to his name, putting down three cups before he began to yawn. The poison in the wine was a gentle one. When Lord Ulf went to sleep, never to awaken, Ser Hobert lurched to his feet and tried to make himself retch, but too late. His heart stopped within the hour.

'Lord White' tries to usurp the crown (or black iron, similarly to Kings of Winter). Guy named Corne knocks that Crown of Winter - he's a Corn King figure bringing spring and summer ('men of the Reach' = Knights of Summer).

Nailing things to one's head reminds me of the take of Aurvandil (Earendel).

11 + 2 men plot to overthrow Winter King = Last Hero + 12 companions

Ser Hobert sacrifices himself and dies in a way that sounds a lot like Coldhands' death.

Also, Hubert is patron saint of hunters and a member of the Wild Hunt...

BTW, @ravenous reader, this might be a stupid question, but what exactly is a nennymoan? Google search shows only posts from this forum, so that doesn't help much...

Is it just another name for anemone flower?

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Blue Tiger said:

BTW, @ravenous reader, this might be a stupid question, but what exactly is a nennymoan? Google search shows only posts from this forum, so that doesn't help much...

Is it just another name for anemone flower?

Hi Niebieski.  It's not a stupid question; however, I don't have a simple answer, since it's one of GRRM's neologisms, included in a cryptic pronouncement by Patchface:

'It is always summer under the sea... the merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed'

So I guess your interpretation of nennymoans would be different to mine, depending on your interpretation of what Patchface means.  What do you think?

[Bluetiger]

6 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Hi Niebieski.  It's not a stupid question; however, I don't have a simple answer, since it's one of GRRM's neologisms, included in a cryptic pronouncement by Patchface:

'It is always summer under the sea... the merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed'

So I guess your interpretation of nennymoans would be different to mine, depending on your interpretation of what Patchface means.  What do you think?

I think that translator had a huge problem with it... 

Quote

Patchface rang his bells. "It is always summer under the sea," he intoned. "The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."

Became:

Quote

Plama poruszył dzwonkami. 

- W podmorskiej krainie zawsze trwa lato - zaintonował - Syreny noszą we włosach nenymony i tkają suknie ze srebrzystych wodorostów. Wiem to, wiem, tra-la-lem.

That just looks weird.

As  you can see, in Polish we don't use '' for dialogue, but instead - 

 

[ravenous reader]

6 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

12 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Hi Niebieski.  It's not a stupid question; however, I don't have a simple answer, since it's one of GRRM's neologisms, included in a cryptic pronouncement by Patchface:

'It is always summer under the sea... the merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed'

So I guess your interpretation of nennymoans would be different to mine, depending on your interpretation of what Patchface means.  What do you think?

I think that translator had a huge problem with it... 

Quote

Patchface rang his bells. "It is always summer under the sea," he intoned. "The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."

Became:

Quote

Plama poruszył dzwonkami. 

- W podmorskiej krainie zawsze trwa lato - zaintonował - Syreny noszą we włosach nenymony i tkają suknie ze srebrzystych wodorostów. Wiem to, wiem, tra-la-lem.

That just looks weird.

Oh god, that made me laugh!!!  

I don't think the Polish translator is the only one who 'had a huge problem with it'!

And 'wiem to, wiem, tra-la-lem' ...Is that how they translate 'oh oh oh' (aka 'ho ho ho' the devil's bluster)?  Does that conjure up Krampus/Pelznickel/Santa/Wild Man for you?

So, when you read 'nenymony' what did you think?  What is an 'anemone' in Polish, for example -- how did you make that connection?

[Bluetiger]

1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

Oh god, that made me laugh!!!  

I don't think the Polish translator is the only one who 'had a huge problem with it'!

And 'wiem to, wiem, tra-la-lem' ...Is that how they translate 'oh oh oh' (aka 'ho ho ho' the devil's bluster)?  Does that conjure up Krampus/Pelznicker/Santa/Wild Man for you?

So, when you read 'nenymony' what did you think?  What is an 'anemone' in Polish, for example -- how did you make that connection?

Anemone is 'zawilec' (from 'zawijać' = to enwrap) - flower closely related to spearwort. It can be toxic, but it's also used in herbal medicine.

So I've assumed that nennymoan is some poisonous plant that can be placed over head like a wreath...

[Bluetiger]

11 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

And 'wiem to, wiem, tra-la-lem' ...Is that how they translate 'oh oh oh' (aka 'ho ho ho' the devil's bluster)?  Does that conjure up Krampus/Pelznickel/Santa/Wild Man for you?

That's just 'I know, I know' and nonsense ending rhyme.

[ravenous reader]

12 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Anemone is 'zawilec' (from 'zawijać' = to enwrap) - flower closely related to spearwort. It can be toxic, but it's also used in herbal medicine.

So I've assumed that nennymoan is some poisonous plant that can be placed over head like a wreath...

Why would one want to place a poisonous plant on ones head??!

Previously, we talked about the poisoning-for-power theme.  In addition, there are two kinds of anemones, terrestrial (flower) and marine (carnivorous sea creature).  The latter is also endowed with poison as well as electricity, with which it shocks its prey -- so that's an indication that they are fiery creatures who live under the sea!

But, in general, how do you interpret Patchface's rhyme?  Big picture?

[Bluetiger]

1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

Why would one want to place a poisonous plant on ones head??!

Previously, we talked about the poisoning-for-power theme.  In addition, there are two kinds of anemones, terrestrial (flower) and marine (carnivorous sea creature).  The latter is also endowed with poison as well as electricity, with which it shocks its prey -- so that's an indication that they are fiery creatures who live under the sea!

But, in general, how do you interpret Patchface's rhyme?  Big picture?

That's one of the few moments in ASOIAF when I'm baffled... With all those myths I know, with all those books I've read...  With all my pride coming from my own writing, with idea that it should be easier for me, because I'm mastering art of hiding clues myself...I'm just baffled. I feel like I'm missing something... Some small, subtle hint that will show me the way... But I'm still blind there.