The Long Night's Watch - the Undead Companions of the Last Hero

[Daendrew]

@LmLwhere can I read more about the mythical Corn King?

[Bluetiger]

3 minutes ago, Daendrew said:

@LmLwhere can I read more about the mythical Corn King?

Golden Bough has few chapters about it - Wikipedia has link to whole text.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

I read the Sacred Order of Green Zombies a few weeks ago so I am not sure if the following passage was referenced or not. 

Quote

Almost seven hundred feet high it stood, three times the height of the tallest tower in the stronghold it sheltered. His uncle said the top was wide enough for a dozen armored knights to ride abreast. The gaunt outlines of huge catapults and monstrous wooden cranes stood sentry up there, like the skeletons of great birds, and among them walked men in black as small as ants. (Jon III, GoT)

12 armored knights abreast, coincidence? 

More sentries as skeletons as well. Interestingly they are also being compared to birds. 

Now that I look at it all, we've got dozen, monster, wood, sentry, skeleton, and black. 

Sorry if this was on there, I couldn't recall if it was or not. I was excited when I found this and thought I should share it just in case it wasn't discussed already. 

Great thread. 

[Daendrew]

34 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Golden Bough has few chapters about it - Wikipedia has link to whole text.

Thank you. Joseph Campbell mentioned that book frequently. I've been meaning to read it.

I'm thoroughly enjoying  the podcast LML. I'm up to part two.

[Lost Melnibonean]

54 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

12 armored knights abreast, coincidence? 

Nice catch. 

[LmL]

3 hours ago, Daendrew said:

Thank you. Joseph Campbell mentioned that book frequently. I've been meaning to read it.

I'm thoroughly enjoying  the podcast LML. I'm up to part two.

Right on, glad to hear it. I actually haven't read Golden Bough, but I suppose I should. Thanks @Blue Tiger

 

4 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I read the Sacred Order of Green Zombies a few weeks ago so I am not sure if the following passage was referenced or not. 

12 armored knights abreast, coincidence? 

More sentries as skeletons as well. Interestingly they are also being compared to birds. 

Now that I look at it all, we've got dozen, monster, wood, sentry, skeleton, and black. 

Sorry if this was on there, I couldn't recall if it was or not. I was excited when I found this and thought I should share it just in case it wasn't discussed already. 

Great thread. 

Oh ho, those skeleton bird sentries sound a bit dragonish, don't they? And yes, a dozen knights, whaddaya know. The picture I am seeing is of dragons and black brothers defending the Wall together... would be great to see that. 

Nice catch, glad you're enjoying the series

[Daendrew]

2 hours ago, LmL said:

Right on, glad to hear it. I actually haven't read Golden Bough, but I suppose I should. Thanks @Blue Tiger

 

Oh ho, those skeleton bird sentries sound a bit dragonish, don't they? And yes, a dozen knights, whaddaya know. The picture I am seeing is of dragons and black brothers defending the Wall together... would be great to see that. 

Nice catch, glad you're enjoying the series

 

Where did you hear about Corn King mythology @LmL?

[LmL]

11 minutes ago, Daendrew said:

Where did you hear about Corn King mythology @LmL?

It was in @Schmendrick's R + L = Lightbringer actually

[Daendrew]

41 minutes ago, LmL said:

It was in @Schmendrick's R + L = Lightbringer actually

Thanks

 

" In essence, by slaying the “bull,” Mithras was acting as a “corn king”. For those unfamiliar, a Corn King is a catchall term for a king or god who is sacrificed for the greater good of his people. The term is often associated with Sir James Frazer’s thesis of a sacred, sacrificial god-king, which he explored in his famous work The Golden Bough. Commonly, the Corn King’s sacrifice is intended to usher in a fruitful harvest before the winter comes. As already noted, the slaying of the white bull results in the first grain and grapes – the first harvest. Jon is directly tied to the “corn king” mythos in the text: "

[LmL]

30 minutes ago, Daendrew said:

Thanks

 

" In essence, by slaying the “bull,” Mithras was acting as a “corn king”. For those unfamiliar, a Corn King is a catchall term for a king or god who is sacrificed for the greater good of his people. The term is often associated with Sir James Frazer’s thesis of a sacred, sacrificial god-king, which he explored in his famous work The Golden Bough. Commonly, the Corn King’s sacrifice is intended to usher in a fruitful harvest before the winter comes. As already noted, the slaying of the white bull results in the first grain and grapes – the first harvest. Jon is directly tied to the “corn king” mythos in the text: "

Haha, I forgot that he mentions the Golden Bough right in his essay. There you have it!

[Unchained]

On 1/9/2017 at 0:53 AM, LmL said:

On a slightly different topic... do you think George might have drawn late-breaking influence from the movie The Crow with Brandon Lee? it came out in 1994, when George was writing. The main character is an undead person who came back from the dead on "Devil's Night," is called "the crow," and uses a crow to scout for him (he can see through the eyes of the crow). The actor's name is, again, Brandon.  He is something of a sad clown, wearing weird clown makeup. Oh and he's a musician. Named Eric Draven. 

Somebody reel me in before I write an essay about this, I'm talking myself into it. 

Hi everyone.  First post, haven't even come up with a name I like yet.

 

I encourage the 90s movie compendium, and episode two needs to be Fern Gulley. That was my sisters favorite movie when we were little and I probly saw it a dozen times.

 

it is about a race of little fairy people (CotF), who have this evil spirit (Garths) imprisoned in a tree (weirwood), then    humans (first men) come blundering along cutting trees down and set it free, forcing some cooperation between humans and fairy people (war for the dawn) to put it back in, after which humans promise not to cut down trees anymore (pact).  

 

It was made in 1992.  I'm tempted to buy it for my kids so when they watch it I can check for more proof that this is what the whole book series is based on.  I remember that the main character is a fairy girl who rides a bat, which for her is kinda dragon sized and the queen sacrifices her life for some sort of kids movie approved blood magic spell to win.  

[Isobel Harper]

I don't recall the ritual sacrifice of Prince of Pentos being mentioned in the podcasts, but the PoP is another example of a Corn King in the series.  From AWoIaF :

 Over the centuries, however, the power of the prince steadily eroded, whilst that of the city magisters who chose him grew. Today it is the council of magisters that rules Pentos, for all practical purposes; the prince's power is largely nominal, his duties almost entirely ceremonial. In the main, he presides over feasts and balls, carried from place to place in a rich palanquin with a handsome guard. Each new year, the prince must deflower two maidens, the maid of the sea and the maid of the fields. This ancient ritual—perhaps arising from the mysterious origins of pre-Valyrian Pentos—is meant to ensure the continued prosperity of Pentos on land and at sea. Yet, if there is famine or if a war is lost, the prince becomes not a ruler but a sacrifice; his throat is slit so that the gods might be appeased. And then a new prince is chosen who might bring more fortune to the city.

The custom of deflowering of the maid of the fields and the maid of the sea are a ritual blood "sacrifice."  No one dies in this ritual, although there is blood letting. And considering a sword's double entendre, we can interpret the deflowering ritual as a form of beheading.  A "sword" removing a (maiden)head.  Then, if the PoP is still unable to create prosperity (famine ensues, war is lost) within his kingdom, he is sacrificed like the Corn King. 

[LmL]

12 hours ago, Working Title said:

Hi everyone.  First post, haven't even come up with a name I like yet.

 

I encourage the 90s movie compendium, and episode two needs to be Fern Gulley. That was my sisters favorite movie when we were little and I probly saw it a dozen times.

 

it is about a race of little fairy people (CotF), who have this evil spirit (Garths) imprisoned in a tree (weirwood), then    humans (first men) come blundering along cutting trees down and set it free, forcing some cooperation between humans and fairy people (war for the dawn) to put it back in, after which humans promise not to cut down trees anymore (pact).  

 

It was made in 1992.  I'm tempted to buy it for my kids so when they watch it I can check for more proof that this is what the whole book series is based on.  I remember that the main character is a fairy girl who rides a bat, which for her is kinda dragon sized and the queen sacrifices her life for some sort of kids movie approved blood magic spell to win.  

Hey there, welcome to the forms and thanks for commenting. It seems like you might have something there! I vaguely remember that movie, now that you described it, but I think I might go ahead and re-watch it. The idea of evil spirits being trapped in the trees which are only let loose when the trees are cut down... Well hot damn that's sounds like it's 'barking up the right tree,' if you will  if this is something Martin headed mind, we can extrapolate that the others might actually be those Dragon people / horned lords who came to Westeros well before the long night... perhaps the children trapped them in the trees, and everything was all good until the first men showed up and started cutting down the trees. So in this sense, the children might not have created the others as a weapon against the first men (an idea I don't tend to like ), but the others are still a result of trees being cut down (which seems like it is true in some sense). Very interesting.

[Unchained]

On 2/1/2017 at 10:34 AM, LmL said:

Hey there, welcome to the forms and thanks for commenting. It seems like you might have something there! I vaguely remember that movie, now that you described it, but I think I might go ahead and re-watch it. The idea of evil spirits being trapped in the trees which are only let loose when the trees are cut down... Well hot damn that's sounds like it's 'barking up the right tree,' if you will  if this is something Martin headed mind, we can extrapolate that the others might actually be those Dragon people / horned lords who came to Westeros well before the long night... perhaps the children trapped them in the trees, and everything was all good until the first men showed up and started cutting down the trees. So in this sense, the children might not have created the others as a weapon against the first men (an idea I don't tend to like ), but the others are still a result of trees being cut down (which seems like it is true in some sense). Very interesting.

I never liked the idea of the Others being Terminators who turned on their creators and everyone else either.  It felt like an HBO simplification.  Maybe they were already thinking about Westworld.  I felt people had to cause them.  I guess now that I have an active profile I need to do that thing where you back up what you think with evidence and stuff.  I went looking for quotes that sounded like fiery greenseers and horned lords being expelled from trees and this is what I found.  Cutting trees down may work, but I suspected burning them was better because fire seems to have an important purging aspect.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard II 

Robert set the pace, driving his huge black destrier hard as Ned galloped along beside him, trying to keep up. He called out a question as they rode, but the wind blew his words away, and the king did not hear him. After that Ned rode in silence. They soon left the kingsroad and took off across rolling plains dark with mist. By then the guard had fallen back a small distance, safely out of earshot, but still Robert would not slow.

Dawn broke as they crested a low ridge, and finally the king pulled up. By then they were miles south of the main party. Robert was flushed and exhilarated as Ned reined up beside him. "Gods," he swore, laughing, "it feels good to get out and ride the way a man was meant to ride! I swear, Ned, this creeping along is enough to drive a man mad." He had never been a patient man, Robert Baratheon. "That damnable wheelhouse, the way it creaks and groans, climbing every bump in the road as if it were a mountain … I promise you, if that wretched thing breaks another axle, I'm going to burn it, and Cersei can walk!" 

Ned laughed. "I will gladly light the torch for you."

 

I think here horned lord Bob is escaping.  The mist represent in the WWnet and after they leave their guard in the dust they stop on a rise which is probably above the mist.  He tells us what he is escaping, it's that damn wheelhouse and it feels good to get out.  After they escape he talks about burning the thing so a green eyed person with fiery colors in her family sigil "can walk".  Also, the KoW is going to light the torch.  

So Lannisters and Baratheons make good symbols for what we are looking for.  Haven't a few of them actually escaped captivity?  Not really, but a few have been set free.  Maybe the release of the Others was on purpose. Let's look at them.  

A Storm of Swords - Jaime I 

He wore iron manacles on his wrists and a matching pair about his ankles, joined by a length of heavy chain no more than a foot long. "You'd think my word as a Lannister was not good enough," he'd japed as they bound him. He'd been very drunk by then, thanks to Catelyn Stark. Of their escape from Riverrun, he recalled only bits and pieces. There had been some trouble with the gaoler, but the big wench had overcome him. After that they had climbed an endless stair, around and around. His legs were weak as grass, and he'd stumbled twice or thrice, until the wench lent him an arm to lean on. At some point he was bundled into a traveler's cloak and shoved into the bottom of a skiff. He remembered listening to Lady Catelyn command someone to raise the portcullis on the Water Gate. She was sending Ser Cleos Frey back to King's Landing with new terms for the queen, she'd declared in a tone that brooked no argument.

He must have drifted off then. The wine had made him sleepy, and it felt good to stretch, a luxury his chains had not permitted him in the cell. Jaime had long ago learned to snatch sleep in the saddle during a march. This was no harder. Tyrion is going to laugh himself sick when he hears how I slept through my own escape. He was awake now, though, and the fetters were irksome. "My lady," he called out, "if you'll strike off these chains, I'll spell you at those oars." 

 

So Jamie is set free by Brienne (an ice moon?) and Cat.  The reason is to trade him for her daughters, and his word is not enough.  He is not trusted.  At first the deal is not followed through by Jaime but eventually he tries to make things right and redeem himself.  Also he is drunk and asleep.  Might that be what it feels like to be trapped in the timeless WWnet.  However he is awake now rowing across a river back to the land of the living.  Now that I think about it the two escapees from the first quote are fond of drinking as well.  Note that Jamie is looking like an Other in the Whispering wood when captured and starts wearing his Kingsguard white more after his escape, so he can represent an Other without the aid of the moonlight.  

 

So is there another Lannister that is freed?  Preferably from a wooden container while drunk?

 

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion I 

Above him loomed a grotesque fat man with a forked yellow beard, holding a wooden mallet and an iron chisel. His bedrobe was large enough to serve as a tourney pavilion, but its loosely knotted belt had come undone, exposing a huge white belly and a pair of heavy breasts that sagged like sacks of suet covered with coarse yellow hair. He reminded Tyrion of a dead sea cow that had once washed up in the caverns under Casterly Rock.

The fat man looked down and smiled. "A drunken dwarf," he said, in the Common Tongue of Westeros. 

"A rotting sea cow." Tyrion's mouth was full of blood. He spat it at the fat man's feet. They were in a long, dim cellar with barrel-vaulted ceilings, its stone walls spotted with nitre. Casks of wine and ale surrounded them, more than enough drink to see a thirsty dwarf safely through the night. Or through a life.

 

Tyrion is drunk and confused while being set free from a wooden prison.  And there's enough drink for him to stay that way forever.  Remember that there's blood in his mouth.  I'll come back to that, but right now I'll say that the thing in the tree prison is blood thirsty or blood drunk.  

 

Other events to look at are Edric Storm (Horned Lord) being set free by Davos (AA), as well as Jon Snow with the wildlings.  He fights them, is captured, set free to help them get across the wall, betrays them, but in the end let's them through, sorta like Jaime with his promise to Cat.  

A thought here before I move on, Dontos is a drunk and a fool.  Tyrion plays the role of fool, AA, and is drunk in a wooden prison.  I have never understood the fool aspect of AA, might this be what that is about?  Is AA sometimes a drunken fool in the WWnet?

Is burning a WW tree to free the dragon ppl inside another meaning of "waking the dragon"?  Is Dany gonna wake some dragons when she brings her dragon fire to the north?  Is it important that it is a place where neither of the worst WW tree destroyers ever made it because Moat Cailin stopped the pre-pact first men and the andals?  Might the "breaker of chains" break a chain that needs to stay unbroken?  What if there is an evil, bloodthirsty, Stark greenseer in the darkness of the Winterfell heart tree above the crypts.  Who in there right mind would unchain that?

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII 

The darkness sprang at him, snarling.

Bran saw eyes like green fire, a flash of teeth, fur as black as the pit around them. Maester Luwin yelled and threw up his hands. The torch went flying from his fingers, caromed off the stone face of Brandon Stark, and tumbled to the statue's feet, the flames licking up his legs. In the drunken shifting torchlight, they saw Luwin struggling with the direwolf, beating at his muzzle with one hand while the jaws closed on the other. 

"Summer!" Bran screamed.

And Summer came, shooting from the dimness behind them, a leaping shadow. He slammed into Shaggydog and knocked him back, and the two direwolves rolled over and over in a tangle of grey and black fur, snapping and biting at each other, while Maester Luwin struggled to his knees, his arm torn and bloody. Osha propped Bran up against Lord Rickard's stone wolf as she hurried to assist the maester. In the light of the guttering torch, shadow wolves twenty feet tall fought on the wall and roof.

"Shaggy," a small voice called. When Bran looked up, his little brother was standing in the mouth of Father's tomb. With one final snap at Summer's face, Shaggydog broke off and bounded to Rickon's side. "You let my father be," Rickon warned Luwin. "You let him be."

"Rickon," Bran said softly. "Father's not here." 

"Yes he is. I saw him." Tears glistened on Rickon's face. "I saw him last night."

"In your dream …?"

Rickon nodded. "You leave him. You leave him be. He's coming home now, like he promised. He's coming home."

Bran had never seen Maester Luwin look so uncertain before. Blood dripped down his arm where Shaggydog had shredded the wool of his sleeve and the flesh beneath. "Osha, the torch," he said, biting through his pain, and she snatched it up before it went out. Soot stains blackened both legs of his uncle's likeness. "That … that beast," Luwin went on, "is supposed to be chained up in the kennels." 

Rickon patted Shaggydog's muzzle, damp with blood. "I let him loose. He doesn't like chains." He licked at his fingers.

 

Uh-oh

 

I'm sure everything will be fine.  

[LmL]

@ravenous reader, I just found a line where Bran is as light as a bale of hay, and another where he is as light as a bundle of rags. Those are the kinds of things I am looking for. 

 

@Unchained do you think this phenomena you are tracing out is the same thing as the pattern of fiery sorcerers and dancers emerging from burning wood when Lightbringer is forged? And do you think those fiery sorcerers.with smoky cloaks somehow became the Others? 

[ravenous reader]

12 minutes ago, LmL said:

 

@ravenous reader, I just found a line where Bran is as light as a bale of hay, and another where he is as light as a bundle of rags. Those are the kinds of things I am looking for. 

 

Those are excellent -- I was just going to send those to you!

What are your thoughts and associations surrounding the 'rags'? ('ragged')

[LmL]

19 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Those are excellent -- I was just going to send those to you!

What are your thoughts and associations surrounding the 'rags'? ('ragged')

Scarecrows are stuffed with them and fools wear them, it seems. It ties into the patchwork or patches symbolism, again like fools. As we've discussed, the wild man of the Woods is a version of the horned Lord and sometimes wears a cloak of pelts sewn together. I'm pretty sure that's all in the same vein.

[ravenous reader]

1 minute ago, LmL said:

Scarecrows are stuffed with them and fools wear them, it seems. It ties into the patchwork or patches symbolism, again like fools. As we've discussed, the wild man of the Woods is a version of the horned Lord and sometimes wears a cloak of pelts sewn together. I'm pretty sure that's all in the same vein.

The grouping of words: 'rags' 'ragged' 'scarecrow' 'patched' 'patchwork' 'Patchface' 'piebald' 'dappled' 'mottled' 'motley' 'spotted' 'frayed', etc.

Seams has identified 'ragged...dagger...dragged...Gared...' wordplay to which I've added 'Yggdrasil' the 'rag tree ' like hawthorn.

[LmL]

11 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The grouping of words: 'rags' 'ragged' 'scarecrow' 'patched' 'patchwork' 'Patchface' 'piebald' 'dappled' 'mottled' 'motley' 'spotted' 'frayed', etc.

Seams has identified 'ragged...dagger...dragged...Gared...' wordplay to which I've added 'Yggdrasil' the 'rag tree ' like hawthorn.

Is there a RAGnarok joke going on here?

[ravenous reader]

14 minutes ago, LmL said:

Is there a RAGnarok joke going on here?

I'm glad to see you're getting with the pun program!  Yes, indeed.  And remember @Blue Tiger found out that 'rag' also means 'dog' or 'wolf'.

And I forgot one, 'Gared' is an anagram -- yes, LmL, it's a thing -- for the writer 'Edgar [Allan Poe]' who wrote the poem 'The Raven.'