The Long Night's Watch - the Undead Companions of the Last Hero

[LmL]

3 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Nice Catch!!!! And since this links Leaf to Arya and Arya is linked to Lyanna and we suspect that Lyanna is the KotLT  which conjures up the Gipps wife and her wicker shield that she carries for her husband, Huzhor Amai

*whirls, spins, collapses in confusion*

NENNYMOAN!! NENNYMOAN!! 

4 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

And the 'music that breaks their heart' is (You know in this sense of the cracked moon being a broken heart provides support for @LmL's Mountain symbolism as the moon warrior tower -as you pointed out the association of the belltower being a symbol of the other world- symbol and also the associations of being beheaded as being a broken tower. Then we can say that we may be seeing an extremely out of control broken heart story because after all St. Valentine is the saint of love and he was beheaded.) not just be the Song of Ice and Fire played on a lyre but also is a carol of bells. We might have to take a closer look at Norvos, and Mellario.

This works two ways, actually. The moon breaks with a sound in the AA tale - Nissa's death scream. That is often the hornblast, because the comet is also a horned dragon that pokes the moon (dirty entendres absolutely intended). But the sound / song element is also the song of the greenseer, as we know - but turned to space. Singing to the moon. The greenseer magic that steered the comet, broke the moon. The song that resonated with the harmony of the spheres and broke the glass, if you will. That's why I like the scene at the Nightfort - the broken dome in the eight sided room (for eight wanderers we would have had with 2 moons) through which the weirwood reaches up to pull down the moon into the well. (god what a metaphor). Summer also leaps down through the moonlight to land as lightly as a snowfall, so make of that what you will (summer snows?) 

Obviously the hellhounds direwolves sing to the moon, so we should look for "naughty greenseer" type clues from them... and they are of course fiery hellhounds, the servants of Hades / King of Winter, a dead ringer for a meteor symbol, which is an AA reborn thing. They parallel the symbolism of Sandor, the burned hellhound, despite all his talk of what dogs do to wolves and whatnot. But we should think further - what do the direwolves do that sounds like moon activity? 

The white wolf raced through a black wood, beneath a pale cliff as tall as the sky. The moon ran with him, slipping through a tangle of bare branches overhead, across the starry sky. Ghost = moon, both slipping "through the wood." The idea of a running moon implies a moon meteor, I would say. Ghost is a weirwood symbol, a fiery one - just like Bloodraven, and just as Jon will be (symbolically at least, when he merges with his weir-wolf). The black wood is another symbol of a fiery greenseer - black wood can be burnt wood, and of course Bloodraven is a Blackwood.  So we have a fiery moon ghost thing racing through the black wood, which means using the black wood by inhabiting it. Let's see what comes of this. 

“Snow,” the moon murmured. The wolf made no answer. Snow crunched beneath his paws. The wind sighed through the trees. 

Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat’s long horn had raked him. (Shaggy = fire moon symbol. Black hellhound, poked by a horn, green fire eyes, etc). In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, (ah ha!) and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. (Moon meteors "break off" to sing the song of meteors descending through the atmosphere (which is very loud) ) The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister’s pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself. 

“Snow,” the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. (Lots of song in this passage where the moon promises snow, aye? Ringing implies bells or hammers as well as eclipse rings) Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense. 

“Snow,” the moon insisted. "Really, snow is coming, I mean it. You should believe me when I say this, I AM THE MOON."

The white wolf ran from it,(because the moon is Ghost, and the moon is slated for sacrifice. Ghost is running from his death, in a sense.  The death of the moon will bring snow (icy meteors), which will coincide with Ghost's sacrifice in all likelihood) racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, (the night sun - the sun underground, like Bran the son / sun of Winter, hidden underground in the darkness) his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, (a reference to the original Long Night I think, when the stars fell out of the sky as black stones and blotted out the the heavenly lights)  a darkness towering high above the wide world, (no comment needed)  but when the moon came out (ha ha, when the moon "came out" of the sky) it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream (this would be the second moon disaster, the one which may be coming with the Winds of Winter.. it will be an ice moon disaster with ice dragon meteors) The wolf’s pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer. More winter sun stuff

“Snow.” An icicle tumbled from a branch. (The trees growing icy teeth is a bad sign. Read that as greenseer creating icy meteors, icy swords, etc. It's more ice moon meteor shower symbolism ) The white wolf turned and bared his teeth. “Snow!” His fur rose bristling, as the woods dissolved around him. “Snow, snow, snow!” He heard the beat of wings. Through the gloom a raven flew.

It landed on Jon Snow’s chest with a thump and a scrabbling of claws. “SNOW!” it screamed into his face. 

The icy moon, promising snow in the raven's voice throughout this scene, now turns into a raven and lands on Jon's chest, screaming. It couldn't be any more clear - this is a moon raven delivering a payload of snow and icy teeth while the sun hides in the cave of night. This is accomplished through moon-singing and star-singing, I would say. 

“I hear you.” The room was dim, his pallet hard. Grey light leaked through the shutters, promising another bleak cold day. “Is this how you woke Mormont? Get your feathers out of my face.” Jon wriggled an arm out from under his blankets to shoo the raven off. It was a big bird, old and bold and scruffy, utterly without fear. “Snow,” it cried, flapping to his bedpost. “Snow, snow.” Jon filled his fist with a pillow and let fly, but the bird took to the air. The pillow struck the wall and burst, scattering stuffing everywhere just as Dolorous Edd Tollett poked his head through the door. “Beg pardon,” he said, ignoring the flurry of feathers,

Does this even need translation? His pillow is presumably filled with white feathers - that's the automatic mental image you get when a pillow bursts - and it is called a FLURRY of feathers. Basically, the white pillow filled with feathers stands in for the white raven moon we just saw, flying through the black wood. Now it lands and hits 'the wall", filling the air with a flurry. This is one of many clues that I have found which seem to be foreshadowing an icy moon disaster to come, and it seems to be related to the Wall coming down. 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

@LmL

Late return to the thread quickly, been very busy. 

Ok to clear up quickly so we have no misunderstanding.

@ravenous reader said the following:

"So, it's after the Other sees the red color that he mocks Ser Waymar.  That's when he realises the Night's Watchman does not pose a threat.  

Wights don't bleed red.  In fact, they have no circulation -- their 'blood' is black and dry, almost mineral consistency-- like iron or dragonglass for example:"

Then he quoted the state of Jafer and Othors state and referenced their blood. The blood of Wights. To which you said:

"Yep, that's all right on the money I think."

So, this thread was on the course of you guys talking about the Other in the Prologue looking for signs of a Wight like Jafer and Othor while engaging Waymar yeah? 

Hence our discussion then took the path of me trying to convince you both, which was successful, that the Others would never have thought that Waymar was any kind of Wight (like Jafer, Othor or Coldhands) by the time the duel started, to which you agreed. Case closed. 

If it's an undead person with fire used to resurrect them you were talking about, that certainly wasn't the case on page 2 where I took them quotes from as you can clearly see. 

So now we understand why I took the time to explain to you the impossibility of the Others thinking Waymar was a Wight at time of attack. That point was cleared up. 

 

 

 

[LmL]

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@LmL

Late return to the thread quickly, been very busy. 

Ok to clear up quickly so we have no misunderstanding.

@ravenous reader said the following:

"So, it's after the Other sees the red color that he mocks Ser Waymar.  That's when he realises the Night's Watchman does not pose a threat.  

Wights don't bleed red.  In fact, they have no circulation -- their 'blood' is black and dry, almost mineral consistency-- like iron or dragonglass for example:"

Then he quoted the state of Jafer and Othors state and referenced their blood. The blood of Wights. To which you said:

"Yep, that's all right on the money I think."

So, this thread was on the course of you guys talking about the Other in the Prologue looking for signs of a Wight like Jafer and Othor while engaging Waymar yeah? 

Hence our discussion then took the path of me trying to convince you both, which was successful, that the Others would never have thought that Waymar was any kind of Wight (like Jafer, Othor or Coldhands) by the time the duel started, to which you agreed. Case closed. 

 

No absolutely not. I did not and do not agree, and I think you are being logically inconsistent to suggest they definitely knew he wasn't a wighted NW brother, but that they couldn't keep own his sword wasn't dragonsteel until the moon light hit it. If they were watching him so closely, they should have seen his sword. And because the Others and their sword are all made from magical ice, any weapon that dissolves Others really should do the same to their weapons. So when they crossed swords with Waymar, I think logic dictates they should know immediately it wasn't dragonsteel.

So stop congratulating yourself, you haven't convicted anyone of anything other than the fact you are combative, closed minded, and adversarial in a thread where we are trying to explore ideas with an open mind. That doesn't mean we can't disagree, but your gotcha-style arguing is unpleasant and unwelcome. 

Quote

If it's an undead person with fire used to resurrect them you were talking about, that certainly wasn't the case on page 2 where I took them quotes from as you can clearly see. 

So now we understand why I took the time to explain to you the impossibility of the Others thinking Waymar was a Wight at time of attack. That point was cleared up. 

Hardly impossible. You seem to be mistaking asumptions as unshakable facts. 

It would be nice if you could raise your points without being so aggressive and hostile. I would welcome your input in such circumstances but at this point I have no interest in continuing to converse with you about this, sorry to say. You keep saying you like the OP, but you have yet to make even a single comment which relates to the topic of the OP, undead skinchangers. Instead you spent all your time defending this one previously established interpretation of this scene which doesn't even conflict with the ideas we are discussing, ideas which themselves aren't even a part of the OP but merely a side-musing.

If you any thoughts on skinchangers, feel free to comment. I think we all know your interpretation of the prologue scene at this point. 

 

[LmL]

22 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

I'll just post this legend, to show the numerous connections to ASOIAF:

From Wikipedia - The Voyage of Bran

Bran mac Febail (modern spelling: Bran mac Feabhail) embarks upon a quest to the Otherworld. One day while Bran is walking, he hears beautiful music, so beautiful, in fact, that it lulls him to sleep. Upon awakening, he sees a beautiful silver branch in white bloom in front of him. He returns to his royal house, and while his company is there, an Otherworld woman appears, and sings to him a poem about the land where the branch had grown. In the song, she identifies the branch to be from an apple tree in Emain, another part of Ireland. In this Otherworld, it is always summer, there is no want of food or water, no sickness or despair ever touches the perfect people, and there is no unhappiness or "no rough or harsh voice." She tells Bran to voyage to the Land of Women across the sea, and the next day he gathers a company of nine men to do so. Each of his foster brothers were put in charge of a group of three men.

After two days, he sees a man on a chariot speeding towards him. The man is Manannan mac Lir, and he tells Bran that he is not sailing upon the ocean, but upon a flowery plain. He also reveals to Bran that there are many men riding in chariots, but that they are invisible. He tells Bran of how he is to beget his son in Ireland, and that his son will become a great warrior. He follows by prophesying the life of the boy and how Manannan mac Lir will be a teacher and a father to him.

Bran leaves Manannan mac Lir, and comes to the Isle of Joy. All the people upon the Isle of Joy laugh and stare at him, but will not answer his calls. When Bran sends a man ashore to see what the matter is, the man starts to laugh and gape just like the others. Bran leaves him and sails farther.

He then reaches the Land of Women, but is hesitant to go ashore. However, the leader of the women throws a magical clew (ball of yarn) at him which sticks to his hand. She then pulls the boat to shore, and each man pairs off with a woman, Bran with the leader. There were three times nine "couches" available for all of them.

For what seems to be one year, although it is in actuality many more, the men feast happily in the Land of Women until Nechtan Mac Collbran feels homesickness stir within him. The leader of the women is reluctant to let them go, and warns them not to step upon the shores of Ireland and to get back the man they left on the Island of Joy.

Bran and his company sail back to Ireland. The people that have gathered on the shores to meet him do not recognize his name except in their legends. Nechtan Mac Collbran, upset, jumps off the boat onto the land. Immediately, Nechtan Mac Collbran turns to ashes.

Bran and his company relate the rest of their story to the Irish, and then sail across the sea, never to be seen again.

Hey @Blue Tiger, you've done it to me again, leaving a tantalizing bit of myth here with no explanation whatsoever, lol. Is this supposed to be the same Bran as Bran the Blessed of the talking head? I have just started to wrap my brain around that one and I have some thoughts on that if you would like to discuss. But I am not sure what to make of this particular myth here, nothign really jumps out to me.  What is the land of women supposed to correlate to? 

Same question for the voyage of St. Brendan. 

[Pain killer Jane]

20 hours ago, LmL said:

*whirls, spins, collapses in confusion*

NENNYMOAN!! NENNYMOAN!! 

Sorry! 

[ravenous reader]

21 hours ago, LmL said:

*whirls, spins, collapses in confusion*

NENNYMOAN!! NENNYMOAN!! 

Yes it's about time you get your head (and hair) around the lime!    It goes like this -- 'you put the lime and the coconut and mix it all together...'  And then you end up with a dreadlocked hairstyle like a weirwood canopy or antler rack or Patchface's dunce's cap with bells, or Arya/Leaf's tangled birds' nest of hair etc.

Huzor Amai -- Azor Ahai...therefore his Gipps wife is bound to constitute a symbolic pointer to that legend...especially as regards the 'wicker' shield...Wicker @LmL Wicker...as in wicker man, wicker basket, willows and weirwood and broomsticks (but we won't go there, or I'll start sounding 'Stark raven mad' again!)

[Pain killer Jane]

5 hours ago, LmL said:

Hey @Blue Tiger, you've done it to me again, leaving a tantalizing bit of myth here with no explanation whatsoever, lol. Is this supposed to be the same Bran as Bran the Blessed of the talking head? I have just started to wrap my brain around that one and I have some thoughts on that if you would like to discuss. But I am not sure what to make of this particular myth here, nothign really jumps out to me.  What is the land of women supposed to correlate to? 

Same question for the voyage of St. Brendan. 

He isn't the same Bran. But as Bran mac Febail's voyage takes place in the same geographical location as Bran the Blessed than there might be some similarity. St. Brendan is the Christian version of Bran mac Febail. 

A silver branch with silver bells that has magical powers is rather interesting especially when Patchface the prophetic fool is running around with jingling bells and ringing bells in the hair of the Dothraki signify victorious war leaders thus meaning he brought a lot of death to his enemies (sleep and death are twin brothers per Greek mythology). And like RR pointed out Bran is a greendreamer and Dany is also a dreaming prophet and she has silver bells in her silver hair. 

The Land of Women could be related to either the Isle of Women in the Summer Islands (thus named because Nymeria attempted to make a home for her people there) or lands that make up the Patrimony of Hyrkoon with their Amazon-esque culture. 

[Pain killer Jane]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Yes it's about time you get your head (and hair) around the lime!    It goes like this -- 'you put the lime and the coconut and mix it all together...'  And then you end up with a dreadlocked hairstyle like a weirwood canopy or antler rack or Patchface's dunce's cap with bells, or Arya/Leaf's tangled birds' nest of hair etc.

Huzor Amai -- Azor Ahai...therefore his Gipps wife is bound to constitute a symbolic pointer to that legend...especially as regards the 'wicker' shield...Wicker @LmL Wicker...as in wicker man, wicker basket, willows and weirwood and broomsticks (but we won't go there, or I'll start sounding 'Stark raven mad' again!)

And the wicker shield is akin to Lyanna's shield with the laughing weirwood tree and thus both being carried by women would be Athena and her aegis. 

 

[LmL]

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Yes it's about time you get your head (and hair) around the lime!    It goes like this -- 'you put the lime and the coconut and mix it all together...'  And then you end up with a dreadlocked hairstyle like a weirwood canopy or antler rack or Patchface's dunce's cap with bells, or Arya/Leaf's tangled birds' nest of hair etc.

Huzor Amai -- Azor Ahai...therefore his Gipps wife is bound to constitute a symbolic pointer to that legend...especially as regards the 'wicker' shield...Wicker @LmL Wicker...as in wicker man, wicker basket, willows and weirwood and broomsticks (but we won't go there, or I'll start sounding 'Stark raven mad' again!)

 

2 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

And the wicker shield is akin to Lyanna's shield with the laughing weirwood tree and thus both being carried by women would be Athena and her aegis. 

 

The thing you all keep forgetting to mention is that "whitewash" is made from limes. That's what made me go "ooohhhhhh..."

Sailors eat limes to strengthen their bones, right? 

 

3 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Sorry! 

It has become quite funny, hasn't it?

[ravenous reader]

Just now, LmL said:

It has become quite funny, hasn't it?

Yip.  I consider it one of my major achievements; namely, that 'nennymoans' has become your 'safe-word'..

he he !

...attests to the power of my poetic vision.

[LmL]

2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Yip.  I consider it one of my major achievements; namely, that 'nennymoans' has become your 'safe-word'..

he he !

...attests to the power of my poetic vision.

Safe-word? Oh man, you've added a whole new layer to it now. There you go again, turning up the heat. 

[ravenous reader]

Just now, LmL said:

Safe-word? Oh man, you've added a whole new layer to it now. There you go again, turning up the heat. 

I am incorrigible.

[Pain killer Jane]

16 minutes ago, LmL said:

The thing you all keep forgetting to mention is that "whitewash" is made from limes. That's what made me go "ooohhhhhh..."

Sailors eat limes to strengthen their bones, right? 

Whitewash is made from calcium hydroxide which in turn is calcium oxide mixed with water. And lime juice was used as a bleaching agent for hair coloring; turning dark hair, blond. The lime stiffen hair in reference to the Gipps wife is most likely the ashes of the burned bones of sea creatures (usually coral, those that secrete calcium carbonate) since her husband Huzhor Amai was the son of the Fisher Queens of the Silver Sea but I will concede that the 'lime' she used could be gypsum the stone and whose nickname was lime sulfate. 

And English Sailors were given the nickname 'limey' because they would consume limes and lemons to protect themselves from scurvy which is a Vitamin C deficiency. Quite an advantage and overlooked as a factor in the Golden Age of Sailing and Naval warfare back in the day. 

I would venture to say that it is akin to the Others being snow (ash) covered burned scarecrow men. The lime is probably a different way to reiterate this concept. Honestly I would even extend to say that Lemons and limes are probably the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

And you are on the right path to connecting bones to limes as the whitewash on the weirwood trees has given them the appearance of bones. Valyria sowed the lands of the Ghescari with lime and skulls. Lem lemoncloak being the knight of skulls and kisses. (Lemons/Limes are akin to Ravens/Crows, different but same). 

[Pain killer Jane]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

Safe-word? Oh man, you've added a whole new layer to it now. There you go again, turning up the heat. 

50 shades of Greyjoy..... ugh so horrible I know. 'Joy turning into ashes' type of taste that horrible pun left. 

[ravenous reader]

10 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

50 shades of Greyjoy.....

Someone who gets my sense of humor...(it's all 'abstract,' after all...)

12 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Honestly I would even extend to say that Lemons and limes are probably the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

definitely bittersweet or sweet-sour...

Quote

And you are on the right path to connecting bones to limes as the whitewash on the weirwood trees has given them the appearance of bones. Valyria sowed the lands of the Ghescari with lime and skulls. Lem lemoncloak being the knight of skulls and kisses. (Lemons/Limes are akin to Ravens/Crows, different but same). 

And, not to forget, that in German -- with which I'm convinced GRRM is most au fait -- 'Gips' is plaster of Paris, used to set broken bones.

Lemons and limes as ravens/crows...don't addle poor LmL's brains now, Jane, he might need a pain killer...

P.S.  Have you checked the poetry thread -- what's your take on the discussion we were having on the Corbray sigil?

[LmL]

14 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I would venture to say that it is akin to the Others being snow (ash) covered burned scarecrow men. The lime is probably a different way to reiterate this concept

What makes you say this?

[LmL]

13 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

50 shades of Greyjoy..... ugh so horrible I know. 'Joy turning into ashes' type of taste that horrible pun left. 

A grey corpse with grey lips smiled sadly... for Dagon Drumm the Necropheliac. 

[ravenous reader]

2 minutes ago, LmL said:

What makes you say this?

I'm sure PKJ will explain it better, but for one 'lime' is crushed and cooked -- i.e. burnt sea creatures -- corals, 'nennymoans' etc.

[Pain killer Jane]

3 minutes ago, LmL said:

What makes you say this?

The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.

Hebrews 9:13

Like RR just mentioned about the Gipps being plaster for setting broken bones. These instances of being covered with snow, covered with ashes in conjunction with the concept of being outwardly clean leads me to consider that the whitewash is like the pearl, while it is considered arbitrarily valuable you can't help but remember that it started off as a piece of dirt; the negative connotation implied. Limes are acidic, Lime or calcium oxide is termed burnt lime and is highly corrosive and was thought to be a component of Greek fire. These limes are damaging but also helpful. Honestly for me George is pointing out the concept of 'putting a positive spin' on something dreadful which you sussed out in the AA is the BSE. 

[LmL]

10 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.

Hebrews 9:13

Like RR just mentioned about the Gipps being plaster for setting broken bones. These instances of being covered with snow, covered with ashes in conjunction with the concept of being outwardly clean leads me to consider that the whitewash is like the pearl, while it is considered arbitrarily valuable you can't help but remember that it started off as a piece of dirt; the negative connotation implied. Limes are acidic, Lime or calcium oxide is termed burnt lime and is highly corrosive and was thought to be a component of Greek fire. These limes are damaging but also helpful. Honestly for me George is pointing out the concept of 'putting a positive spin' on something dreadful which you sussed out in the AA is the BSE. 

I was wondering if you had identified links between the Others and scarecrows in your scarecrow research. I'm not really following you bringing the Others into this.  This is also too far away from the books for my comfort. It's like like seven degrees of separation between the topics you are linking, I feel. And what is clean about the Others exactly? That I really do not get. 

I am pressing you because there is a distinct possibility that some of my fiery greenseers could have become Others, but evidence for this is fleeting and elusive. I was curious if you had found such a link. 

So if I can stumble around in the dark a bit... calcium oxide is burnt lime, and it can either whitewash OR greek fire? It's easy to see the link between Greek fire and wildfire, and thus to green fire and fiery greenseers... the thing I'm not sold on is the tie between weirwoods and either limes or whitewash. What is the evidence for that exactly?