That Trip to the Crypts

[Ice Queen]

2 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

The first explanation that springs to mind is that during his first visit (with LC Qorgyle when Robb and Jon were kids) or (alleged) second visit (when King Robert visited WF), he didn't know to look for anything special.

It's something like two years since King Robert visited WF. Mance could've found out something in the meantime, something that sparks his interest in the WF crypts.

Just don't ask me what that something is, lol! :-D

The Horn of Joramun. He had the wildlings digging up the North looking for it. Barring that, he's looking for a way past the Wall through the crypts. There may be a cave system that extends from Winterfell to the caves of Gendel and his children. 

I want to know what's in the lowest levels, though. I'd bet real money the NK himself is down there. 

[talvikorppi]

Yeah, @Crazy Cat Lady in Training, I thought of the Horn of Joramun or secret passages connecting with Gorne's Way etc., but what interests me is what and how and when did Mance get that info? Dalla, whom Mance calls a very wise lady? But why should she know anything about the WF crypts? Anyway, we're getting a bit sidetracked from the topic, which, I believe is Lady Barbrey Dustin's visit to the crypts...

As to Lady Barbrey Dustin, it seemed like she wanted something confirmed. She's playing with her cards very close to her chest, she's a very intriguing character, and once again I want to thank and complement everybody who've contributed to this thread. You've given me lots of food for thought and I need to go and re-read everything now! :-D

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

On 1/5/2017 at 4:50 AM, rotting sea cow said:

The other visits were offscreen. Theon and Mance visit is almost a certainty. One of the spearwives already asked Theon about the crypts, so once Theon was 'captured' by them and brought him to Abel, they likely went there (it is of course possible he learned that from Lady Dustin already, but I find it less probable).

Is there anything else to why you think Abel and Theon met in the crypts? I don't know that there is a lot to make us think they met in the crypts. Holly does ask about the crypts, but isn't that because they are looking for an escape route? At the end of Ghost in Winterfell, Rowan does say Mance is waiting for Theon. You think he could be waiting in the crypts? I guess it's possible. 

I'm just wondering if I missed something else which makes it clear that this meeting took place in the crypts. 

[Clegane'sPup]

3 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

At the end of Ghost in Winterfell, Rowan does say Mance is waiting for Theon. You think he could be waiting in the crypts? I guess it's possible. 

I'm just wondering if I missed something else which makes it clear that this meeting took place in the crypts. 

I came across this last week I think. Maybe it will help.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Theon I

He had come this close to telling them the truth when Rowan had delivered him to Abel in the ruins of the Burned Tower, but at the last instant he had held his tongue.

 

It’s not explicitly stated that Theon took Mance to the crypts. The Burned/broken Tower, the First Keep and the crypts are located in close proximity to each other.  I’m thinking that there is a possibility that Mance had Theon take him take him there or at least show him the location.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

48 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I came across this last week I think. Maybe it will help.

It’s not explicitly stated that Theon took Mance to the crypts. The Burned/broken Tower, the First Keep and the crypts are located in close proximity to each other.  I’m thinking that there is a possibility that Mance had Theon take him take him there or at least show him the location.

Hmmm... I did not think the burned and broken tower were the same thing. Based on this from Bran VII in COK I would say they are not.

Quote

The First Keep had not been used for many hundreds of years, but now it was more of a shell than ever. The floors had burned inside it, and all the beams. Where the wall had fallen away, they could see right into the rooms, even into the privy. Yet behind, the broken tower still stood, no more burned than before. Jojen Reed was coughing from the smoke. "Take me home!" Rickon demanded. "I want to be home!" Hodor stomped in a circle. "Hodor," he whimpered in a small voice. They stood huddled together with ruin and death all around them.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

@OtherFromAnotherMother

Basically I was trying to help out with the DwD quote about where Mance met Theon. It was pretty cool when I discovered their actual secret meeting.

The broken/Burned Tower thing I snooped around in the books and here.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Winterfell

The quote you supplied comes from after Ramsey put WF to torch.

Bran describes the closeness of the First Keep and the burned tower this way.

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran II

The best way was to start from the godswood, shinny up the tall sentinel, and cross over the armory and the guards hall, leaping roof to roof, barefoot so the guards wouldn't hear you overhead. That brought you up to the blind side of the First Keep, the oldest part of the castle, a squat round fortress that was taller than it looked. Only rats and spiders lived there now but the old stones still made for good climbing. You could go straight up to where the gargoyles leaned out blindly over empty space, and swing from gargoyle to gargoyle, hand over hand, around to the north side. From there, if you really stretched, you could reach out and pull yourself over to the broken tower where it leaned close. The last part was the scramble up the blackened stones to the eyrie, no more than ten feet, and then the crows would come round to see if you'd brought any corn. Bran was moving from gargoyle to gargoyle with the ease of long practice when he heard the voices. He was so startled he almost lost his grip. The First Keep had been empty all his life.

 

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

@OtherFromAnotherMother

Basically I was trying to help out with the DwD quote about where Mance met Theon. It was pretty cool when I discovered their actual secret meeting.

The broken/Burned Tower thing I snooped around in the books and here.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Winterfell

The quote you supplied comes from after Ramsey put WF to torch.

Bran describes the closeness of the First Keep and the burned tower this way.

 

 

Yeah I used that quote to show that the broken tower was not burned when Ramsay lit the torch. So, the same tower is called burned and broken? I guess I never realized that. 

Thanks. 

But we stil don't know for sure that this discussion took place in the crypts. It's possible, even probable, but not for sure.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

22 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

But we stil don't know for sure that this discussion took place in the crypts. It's possible, even probable, but not for sure.

I agree, that there is no mention that I know of, that Mance and Theon had a conversation in the crypts.

 

My curiosity lies more with Mance’s interest about the crypts. When I start thinking about that I come up will all kind of questions.

The rest is for open discussion, not specifically you. I say that because lately there seems to a trend that when a poster is talking with another poster no one else is suppose to chime in. A trend I do not agree with.

Basically all I know is that Holly wanted Theon to take her to the crypts. I’m guessing Mance put her up to that.

Theon on one of his walkabouts ends up at the Heart Tree. Rowan, Holly & Myrtle interact with Theon. The chapter ends with Rowan saying “But not till you’ve sung for Abel. He’s waiting for you.”

Then in Theon’s next chapter it is revealed that they met in the ruins of the Burned Tower.

Using our two quotes plus a couple more: When Bran & company came out of the crypts he noticed that the interior of the First Keep had burned yet the broken tower still stood no more burned than before.

During Bran’s climbing days he used The First Keep, the one with the gargoyles, to get to the broken tower.

Bran says the broken tower had been set afire by lighting and also says he fed crows at the Burned Tower.

GoT  His favorite haunt was the broken tower. Once it had been a watchtower, the tallest in Winterfell. A long time ago, a hundred years before even his father had been born, a lightning strike had set it afire. The top third of the structure had collapsed inward, and the tower had never been rebuilt.

GoT  There were crows' nests atop the broken tower, where no one ever went but him, and sometimes he filled his pockets with corn before he climbed up there and the crows ate it right out of his hand.

CoK  But the worst dreams are when I fall." He looked down into the yard, feeling miserable. "I never used to fall before. When I climbed. I went everyplace, up on the roofs and along the walls, I used to feed the crows in the Burned Tower.

Martin uses different names for the same thing. Whether it is intentional or not, it is confusing for me. Thinking back to my first read, Others & white walkers caused me a lot of confusion. What is confusing me now is the use of words describing WF’s gates. Especially main gates and the east gate.

What does all this have to do with Mance possibly being in the crypts?  As I said in my first post: The Burned/broken Tower, the First Keep and the crypts are located in close proximity to each other.  I’m thinking that there is a possibility that Mance had Theon take him take him to the crypts or show him the location.

None of that addresses why Mance would want to go to the crypts. That is what I am curious about. The only thing that comes to mind is that tale of Bael the Bard and that Mance plans on hiding down there. I guess he plans on taking food, water and torches with him.

The last I heard Mance is sitting cross legged on a dias table singing a soft song that Theon doesn’t know with a Lord’s door somewhere behind him and Frey’s leading their horses out of the Hall.

[rotting sea cow]

On 1/14/2017 at 2:47 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Is there anything else to why you think Abel and Theon met in the crypts? I don't know that there is a lot to make us think they met in the crypts. Holly does ask about the crypts, but isn't that because they are looking for an escape route? At the end of Ghost in Winterfell, Rowan does say Mance is waiting for Theon. You think he could be waiting in the crypts? I guess it's possible. 

I'm just wondering if I missed something else which makes it clear that this meeting took place in the crypts. 

I didn't say they met in the crypts. I say that it is very likely, almost a certainty that Theon showed the crypts to Mance, unless he learned that from another person, like Lady Dustin or Big Walder, but this is very improbable. 

Mance already sent a spearwife to Theon to ask about the crypts. Mance adopted the name Abel, an anagram of Bael, who hide in the crypts of Winterfell. Mance wants to pull out a Bael in WF. He needs the position of the crypts for that, for a "song", not only because a possible escape route.  We must not forget that our King-beyond-the-Wall is first and foremost a singer.

Once they captured Theon, he certainly told Mance everything he knows, except two things. He didn't kill Bran & Rickon and Ramsay's wife is not Ayra.

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

18 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Bran says the broken tower had been set afire by lighting and also says he fed crows at the Burned Tower.

 

18 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

CoK  But the worst dreams are when I fall." He looked down into the yard, feeling miserable. "I never used to fall before. When I climbed. I went everyplace, up on the roofs and along the walls, I used to feed the crows in the Burned Tower.

Yes. I found this quote as well. It cleared it up for ms. The confusion was that I did not know the Burned Tower was also called the Broken Tower. I did not realize it was one in the same. Thanks for trying to help. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. 

5 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Mance wants to pull out a Bael in WF. He needs the position of the crypts for that, for a "song", not only because a possible escape route.  We must not forget that our King-beyond-the-Wall is first and foremost a singer.

Yes. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

7 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I didn't say they met in the crypts. I say that it is very likely, almost a certainty that Theon showed the crypts to Mance, unless he learned that from another person, like Lady Dustin or Big Walder, but this is very improbable. 

Right. I hope it didn't read as if I was saying that you said it as a matter of fact. That was not my intention. I was just wondering if I had missed something that says it happened for sure. 

I agree. I think it is likely that Theon showed Mance the crypts.