Virginity: Important of Chastity in Westeros

[Vaith]

I do think that chastity is basically expected to be a given anywhere outside of Dorne.

This doesn't mean that there isn't a lot of stuff that contradicts that information - we do see many examples in the books of women that eschew this. But in many cases, the books star exceptional characters, and the consequences of being "soiled" are quite severe.

For example, Delena Florent. Even though she was "soiled" by the king and had his bastard son, the best she could do was be quietly married off to one of her father's bannermen. Lysa Tully was only considered fit to marry Jon Arryn on the condition that Hoster would support the rebellion, and even then Catelyn wasn't aware of it, etc. And we can see this with Lady Butterwell Frey in the prequels: okay, she got to marry a head of a house that was on probably on a similar level on House Frey at the time, but from how the characters speak of it, it's quite clear the match happened as a consequence of an affair.

Now, there are many exceptions we see in the novels, but again, the novels have exceptional characters. Dany, obviously, but by the time she has extramarital sex she's established herself as a highly influential female ruler with dragons - and it's not like people disapprove of it, Galazza Galare is still being snooty with her. Asha is one, but there was an active effort by Alannys to separate her from Tristifer Botley. And there's also the fact that she's considered one of the quite rare female captains that are allowed to take on masculine traits. We don't know how widespread knowledge is of her virginity as well. You also mentioned the north: well, I'm not sure if you can take what's said about Maege and Alysane at face value - of course Maege didn't really sleep with a bear, and Alysane's line to Asha about not being married and that her children were fathered by a bear obviously has a playful tone to it. I think it's mostly to show how masculine they are in contrast to most Westerosi women, and even most northerners - after all, Bear Island developed its own culture of warrior women due to ironborn raids and the fishing trade of men, etc. The other northern non-maiden is Barbrey Ryswell, which is the most notable in her virginity still allowing her to marry well. Well, we don't know how widespread this knowledge is - she just confesses it to Theon/Reek, who's nobody at that point. And her father would obviously want to advance her as the potential next Lady Stark - so maybe he allowed it to advance his daughter? She did believe Brandon truly loved her and wanted to marry her, after all. But I would say it would mostly be considered risky as things aren't set in stone.

Other characters mentioned in the Jeyne thread were Ami Frey. And Merrett even thinks how awful it was that she had to marry a hedge knight because of it! Of course she ended up marrying Lancel but that was because she was the only marriageable Darry-Frey woman so Lancel could quickly be granted Darry. Then there's Aegon's mistresses and during his time as king it was kind of exceptional that they got the influence they did - and mind you, though the Blackwoods and Brackens aren't poor or uninfluential, they aren't great houses, so they could afford to advance their daughters as mistresses. Delena was more of a one night stand I suppose, and Cersei would definitely protest to Robert having an open mistress, hence why she got a shorter end of the stick.

So as for the notion that it's not as bad for women of great houses, I don't really know. Obviously a woman of a great house is going to be a good trophy wife for anyone, but if say, it was known Margaery had sex before her marriage with Renly, she wouldn't be able to marry the king's brother, obviously, but probably not a son of any great house. Sure, an heir might want to marry her - but probably a banner house less influential than the Hightowers, Redwynes, Rowans, Tarlys, etc. and she might have ended up marrying a Vyrwel or a Meadows.

In terms of explaining the ideal and what's expected, well, because of Westeros' very patriarchal nature and the system of inheritance through the male line, there can be no suspicion of a child actually being a bastard. Therefore everywhere but Dorne it's thought that a woman not being a maiden at marriage could lead to her being more likely to cheat, and the child not being the husband's. 

[zandru]

3 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

maybe he never did and thats the whole point about LF.

What if he always thought he did spend that night with Catelyn, and that she had feelings for him...

So he goes on and challenges Brandon to a duel, gets wounded. Cat saves his life by pleading Brandon to spare him. and he gets banished from Riverrun...

LF writes her a letter.. she never answers. we readers know she never actually read it, but he doesnt... all he knows is that she goes on and marries to the Starks of winterfell, choosing to become lady of the North rather than marrying him.. a lowborn baelish from nowhere...

so he grows bitter and motivated to ascend socially to get a title that might have won the hand of catelyn back then.. and now tries to remake history with Cat 2.0.. sansa.

You make a good point. This would also explain Baelish's apparent desire to smear Cat by bragging about how he "took her maidenhead" before she was given to the good & righteous Ned Stark. Build himself up; kick her down; cuckold Lord Stark. Must have been satisfying. And then, the prospect of fcking their daughter, almost in front of their very eyes - priceless.

He would also have made the assumption that Cat, unlike any other highborne lady, was free to marry (or decline) anybody she chose, regardless of political considerations. So I still think a case can be made that Baelish knew he'd bedded Lysa, but saw an opportunity to brag about fcking Cat, making himself out to be some kinda stud, and cuckolding Lord Ned Stark of Winterfell. It fits his character, as I've perceived it.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

1 hour ago, Protagoras said:

 

So if you are gatehouse Ami in a family with many, many, many siblings (and you only need to marry one of them to get the favor of the crossing) you have a problem. If you are Asha (or basically anyone who lives in a family where you are reasonably liked and seen as valuable, like Arya) this is a non-issue, other than there will be some dissapointment over what you have done from those in position to judge you (you father, mother and close relatives). Your future husband won´t be in such a position - if he has heard rumors yet still buys you, then he really can´t compain about it afterwards. He took the deal because he liked the pros and thought the cons was to few. If he STILL complains about those cons then he is just a hypocrite.

You have a problem even if you aren't Gatehouse Ami. You might find a decent husband anyway provided your family is wealthy enough, yes, but you will always lack honor, and people will look down upon you as a result. This in a world and among a social class where personal reputation is hugely important. 

Look at Jaime Lannister to see how fun it is to have the other nobles treat you like shit, even if you are rich. . 

[Gertrude]

Protagoras, I don't think we really disagree. You're speaking to the realist side of things, and I'm speaking to the ideal side of how society works, but we both agree they don't match up. Maybe it's the question that's unclear. When we ask 'how does Westeros value society', do we mean what people give lip service to and agree is the best course of action, or do we look at what people actually do?

I'd argue that you're right, people do break the rules and settle and look the other way if the prize is high enough. But doesn't the fact that they have to look the other way mean that chastity is actually valued? I know you're saying that it is, but that it's low on the list of things to look for in a bride. I'd say it's higher than you are making it out to be. Essentially, the one in the position of power gets to make that call. If you're the father of a marriageable girl, you don't want to give a more powerful lord a reason to pass her by, thus the value of chastity. Only very, very few families could pass off a promiscuous girl as a highly sought after bride, And the thing is, the father doesn't even have to be ambitious to want his daughter to marry well - it's all about her well being and her station in life. He's showing his love for his daughter by making sure she is cared for as she deserves to be. It's twisted, but it's all tangled up in the 'women as property' thing.

(ugh - and I just feel dirty talking about women as chattel, but that's how this thing works here, so I'm going with it)

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

In the East, it seems like chastity means absolutely nothing.

 

Summer Isles Noblewomen prostitue themselves on occasion.

 

Lys is a place of sex and beauty.

 

Braavos has courtesans.

 

Dorne, being so closely tied to the East probably carries some of these values, though nowhere near the same level.

[PrinceHenryris]

I think it's kind of a pick and choose thing.

While a lot of lords would want a virgin, there are other considerations such as politics, money,  fertility, etc.

Ambrose Butterwell was happy to marry his Frey Bride, and even Dunk heard the stories.

Rohanne Webber was married five times before she married Gerold Lannister and became the Lady of Casterly Rock.

Eleana Targaryen had two bastards by Oakenfist, married an old man who died on their wedding night, and married two more times.

Lysa Tully was considered kind of a catch because she was supposedly fertile.

[Jaak]

9 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Prince Daemon is not really a great example,  since he himself is willing to take her and undercuts her devaluation in order to improve his deal. I am pretty sure Rhaenyra would have had many offers still.

Sure.

Actually, who would a man rather marry: an as yet childless and nonpregnant but still presumably fertile girl of unchaste reputation, or a respectable and chaste widow with several healthy sons?

If your wife is unchaste and will be in the position to continue being unchaste during your marriage, you will not know which of her children will be yours - yet you are to support all of them as your own, and leave your inheritance to her eldest son regardless of the actual paternity.

If your wife has only slept with her late husband, and he´s no more, then she might also be faithful to you during her second marriage. You therefore know which of her children will be yours and will get your support and inheritance.

However, since she already has several healthy sons, it is the eldest of them who will get her inheritance. Your children will be younger sons, and therefore get nothing.

Does it look like something that would have cheapened Rhaenyra, or Cersei? Or Nymeria, who after all made her Martell daughter her heiress, and disinherited her son by Dayne, like Aegon was disinherited?

9 hours ago, Protagoras said:

As for Ser Elys daugther, well - he had five of them and clearly didn´t care that much about her, but placed his own self-value above it. And now we are not talking "losing virginity" any longer but "came with child", which is far harder to cover up. And Ser Elys might have taken a moral stance, but he lost on it too - now he has one less child to power-play with. Children are hard currency and that he is so willing to throw one away means that he is stupid, have morals that force him to take economic losses or is too poor to care for his family in its current state.

No.

It is not just the value of Ser Elys´ self. It is the value of ser Elys´ daughters.

After all, the potential grooms for the other four daughters are going to worry: "What if she cheats me, and then runs back home to daddy? Receiving a safe home to go back to, and possibly an army to champion her bastard for my inheritance?"

To not impose a harsh punishment on the daughter who took the honour of the whole family would mean cheapening the value of the other four sisters. I suspect that the net value of 1 guilty sister plus 4 sisters whose honour is smeared by presumption of impunity is rather less than the net value of the 4 remaining sisters whose honour is reestablished by demonstration of harsh punishment for the fifth.

A respectable family must be able to recall members for defects, to support the value of those left...

[Protagoras]

19 hours ago, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

Look at Jaime Lannister to see how fun it is to have the other nobles treat you like shit, even if you are rich. . 

But bad talk is not really consequences. Jaime is still invited to all important places, still placed in positions of trust, still given the respect due to his blood. And Jaime did an actual crime instead of just breaking the norm a little. Indeed, very few are known for killing their king they were supposed to protect but many loses their virginity before marriage.

While certainly Jaime and his men are aware of Gatehouse Amis rep, its not like they say it to her face when they visit her. It is simply not something you can act on in public the same way. In fact, even mentioning it makes the speaker more rude than the person targeted.

[Protagoras]

13 hours ago, Jaak said:

Sure.

Actually, who would a man rather marry: an as yet childless and nonpregnant but still presumably fertile girl of unchaste reputation, or a respectable and chaste widow with several healthy sons?

If your wife is unchaste and will be in the position to continue being unchaste during your marriage, you will not know which of her children will be yours - yet you are to support all of them as your own, and leave your inheritance to her eldest son regardless of the actual paternity.

If your wife has only slept with her late husband, and he´s no more, then she might also be faithful to you during her second marriage. You therefore know which of her children will be yours and will get your support and inheritance.

However, since she already has several healthy sons, it is the eldest of them who will get her inheritance. Your children will be younger sons, and therefore get nothing.

Does it look like something that would have cheapened Rhaenyra, or Cersei? Or Nymeria, who after all made her Martell daughter her heiress, and disinherited her son by Dayne, like Aegon was disinherited?

I think you more or less confirm my point for me.

A widow is LESS attractive than someone who hade a one-night-stand, since if there was no kids from the reunion you have no competition for your children, but many widows have produced sons. Rhaenyra and Cersei and Nymeria are unattractive partners not because of eventual side-business but due to that your sons won´t get the seat. But still, in 2 of those 3 cases they got a new partner with pretty high status (the kings brother, a Dayne) and in Cerseis case she might have gotten Balon Greyjoy (and thats despite that she have...additional rumors of incest - which is a big non-no that the other two didn´t have).

13 hours ago, Jaak said:

No.

It is not just the value of Ser Elys´ self. It is the value of ser Elys´ daughters.

After all, the potential grooms for the other four daughters are going to worry: "What if she cheats me, and then runs back home to daddy? Receiving a safe home to go back to, and possibly an army to champion her bastard for my inheritance?"

To not impose a harsh punishment on the daughter who took the honour of the whole family would mean cheapening the value of the other four sisters. I suspect that the net value of 1 guilty sister plus 4 sisters whose honour is smeared by presumption of impunity is rather less than the net value of the 4 remaining sisters whose honour is reestablished by demonstration of harsh punishment for the fifth.

A respectable family must be able to recall members for defects, to support the value of those left...

No one is going to champion a bastard known as such and if those grooms have so little mandom that they can´t keep control of my daughter under their roof then they only got themselves to blame. I am going to point out to that groom that A. Only shitty, uncaring husbands get cheated on, B. Family comes first always, which means you know that I will in the future help you with more than words if you do become family, C. The other candidates in the same region at the same age have other issues, one might be shy, one might be sickly, one might be known as rude, one might be a Frey and so on and so on and D. I still have that army and that trade deal and those connections you wanted. You are not really marrying my daughter but this family as a whole. If you don´t want to marry my daughter, fine - but your rival next to you might take my offer instead and you don´t want that, do you? He also have sons in the right age. And I am next to both of you...I will also, like Lord Frey, take rejection of my offer as an insult and systematically assist people I like over people I don´t like.

But even if you are correct that the net value in this case is true, the man has after all 5 daughters. But I agreed on that (one of the reasons to Gatehouse Amis poor position in comparison to Asha Greyjoy) - what I didn´t agree was if you only have a few. I suspect that the net value of 1 guilty sister plus 1 sister whose honour is smeared by presumption of impunity is NOT less than the net value of the 1 remaining sister whose honour is reestablished by demonstration of harsh punishment.

[Protagoras]

19 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Protagoras, I don't think we really disagree. You're speaking to the realist side of things, and I'm speaking to the ideal side of how society works, but we both agree they don't match up. Maybe it's the question that's unclear. When we ask 'how does Westeros value society', do we mean what people give lip service to and agree is the best course of action, or do we look at what people actually do?

I'd argue that you're right, people do break the rules and settle and look the other way if the prize is high enough. But doesn't the fact that they have to look the other way mean that chastity is actually valued? I know you're saying that it is, but that it's low on the list of things to look for in a bride. I'd say it's higher than you are making it out to be. Essentially, the one in the position of power gets to make that call. If you're the father of a marriageable girl, you don't want to give a more powerful lord a reason to pass her by, thus the value of chastity. Only very, very few families could pass off a promiscuous girl as a highly sought after bride, And the thing is, the father doesn't even have to be ambitious to want his daughter to marry well - it's all about her well being and her station in life. He's showing his love for his daughter by making sure she is cared for as she deserves to be. It's twisted, but it's all tangled up in the 'women as property' thing.

(ugh - and I just feel dirty talking about women as chattel, but that's how this thing works here, so I'm going with it)

Well, if people doesn´t seem to care about it in the end, but pick a Asha Greyjoy over a Jeyne Westerling every time it certainly speak to me the language that it might not be on top 10 or even top 20 of the most important qualities. If chastity are valued so high then it would be nice to see a case when people say "Screw this cheating slut, who is the daughter to a lord paramount, who gives me her weight in gold as bride gift, lucrative trade rights and promises me future support in all wars that might come, I am going to go with that piss-poor noble house far out in whothefuckknowswhere and get myself a real lady who know how to keep herself honest. She might be 40, ugly and toothless but I know for sure she hasn´t touched a man ever". But that will never happen. There are so, so many more important factors here that saying that people value Virginity comes off as a big fat lie. I personally value the principle of non-violence. Except in all those hundreds if not thousands of cases where I do not, where I think violence is a-ok due to circumstances. And I wouldn´t call myself a pacifist either. Because there will almost always BE circumstances.

Its not that I would as her father tell her to screw with the whole world, but I do want her to be social, open and even somewhat flirty. To be able to act with other people in a social way. Because in the end, unsocial persons are the likeliest ones to be virgins, but no one wants them anyway. So my daughter, which I in this scenario see as my property is doing a far better job if she lost her virginity, but didn´t get exposed for it than if she is avoiding men in general because she doesn´t want to take risks. And lets be frank, her station in life is not because of her personal capabilities but in general because of her birth and blood. Again, Gatehouse Ami did get Darry in the end.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I think that it depends on who the woman is, for example a Targaryen princess who had pre marital sex wouldn’t had the same treatment with a Hetherspoon or even a Tully. The virginity would matter if the bride was of equal or lower rank than the one of her groom’s, if the bride is of higher rank the groom wouldn’t care. For example if a Targaryen princess marries a lord who isn't a prince even someone of a Great House she still is of higher rank and is different from a woman of a Great house marrying a man of a Great House.

[Protagoras]

21 hours ago, Vaith said:

I do think that chastity is basically expected to be a given anywhere outside of Dorne.

I think most people know better than that. It is certainly on peoples wish-lists like "I am gonna train myself into shape this year".
 

21 hours ago, Vaith said:

This doesn't mean that there isn't a lot of stuff that contradicts that information - we do see many examples in the books of women that eschew this. But in many cases, the books star exceptional characters, and the consequences of being "soiled" are quite severe.

Life also starts exceptional characters. Sorry you missed that.

21 hours ago, Vaith said:

For example, Delena Florent. Even though she was "soiled" by the king and had his bastard son, the best she could do was be quietly married off to one of her father's bannermen. Lysa Tully was only considered fit to marry Jon Arryn on the condition that Hoster would support the rebellion, and even then Catelyn wasn't aware of it, etc. And we can see this with Lady Butterwell Frey in the prequels: okay, she got to marry a head of a house that was on probably on a similar level on House Frey at the time, but from how the characters speak of it, it's quite clear the match happened as a consequence of an affair.

Delena Florent is also not of the main line. She is the daughter of Colin Florent, the younger son of Lord alester and the castellan. Marrying her fathers bannerman was the likeliest outcome anyway. And as you say, Lady Butterwell Frey got a good marriage despite her mishap. She most likely got it due to the difference in age, but (tragically) there are many girls who would love to be in her position.

And Lysa Tully was considered fit to marry Jaime due to that Tywin wanted an alliance with Hoster. They had been discussing a betrothal before Jaimes introduction in the Kingsguard. Its almost like Tywin didn´t care about how much she had fucked Littlefinger and more about the potential benefit with her birth and blood, but what do I know.

21 hours ago, Vaith said:

Now, there are many exceptions we see in the novels, but again, the novels have exceptional characters. Dany, obviously, but by the time she has extramarital sex she's established herself as a highly influential female ruler with dragons - and it's not like people disapprove of it, Galazza Galare is still being snooty with her. Asha is one, but there was an active effort by Alannys to separate her from Tristifer Botley. And there's also the fact that she's considered one of the quite rare female captains that are allowed to take on masculine traits. We don't know how widespread knowledge is of her virginity as well. You also mentioned the north: well, I'm not sure if you can take what's said about Maege and Alysane at face value - of course Maege didn't really sleep with a bear, and Alysane's line to Asha about not being married and that her children were fathered by a bear obviously has a playful tone to it. I think it's mostly to show how masculine they are in contrast to most Westerosi women, and even most northerners - after all, Bear Island developed its own culture of warrior women due to ironborn raids and the fishing trade of men, etc. The other northern non-maiden is Barbrey Ryswell, which is the most notable in her virginity still allowing her to marry well. Well, we don't know how widespread this knowledge is - she just confesses it to Theon/Reek, who's nobody at that point. And her father would obviously want to advance her as the potential next Lady Stark - so maybe he allowed it to advance his daughter? She did believe Brandon truly loved her and wanted to marry her, after all. But I would say it would mostly be considered risky as things aren't set in stone.

Galazza can go screw herself. She needed Daenerys for that alliance and if Daenerys sexual apetite makes her queasy then she should stop insisting on a marriage. It is also very interesting that all these cases that you mention - Lady Barbrey, Asha, Daenerys, Maege, Alysanne that none so far seems to have suffered any negative consequences from this choice, apart maybe from some scorn.

21 hours ago, Vaith said:

Other characters mentioned in the Jeyne thread were Ami Frey. And Merrett even thinks how awful it was that she had to marry a hedge knight because of it! Of course she ended up marrying Lancel but that was because she was the only marriageable Darry-Frey woman so Lancel could quickly be granted Darry. Then there's Aegon's mistresses and during his time as king it was kind of exceptional that they got the influence they did - and mind you, though the Blackwoods and Brackens aren't poor or uninfluential, they aren't great houses, so they could afford to advance their daughters as mistresses. Delena was more of a one night stand I suppose, and Cersei would definitely protest to Robert having an open mistress, hence why she got a shorter end of the stick.

Merrett is a idiot. He got lucky that his own fat daughter got apprecianted for her fatness and was married of well (and is surprised that he isn´t rewarded for it!). Because that is what you forget in this post - you don´t compare a woman against an imaginary pictore of the perfect maiden. you compare her against the other living options. And of course the mistresses got influence, why else fuck Aegon IV if you don´t get anything for it. Hookers cost money and if you don´t pay up you won´t get ny more hookers.

Brackens and Blackwoods are definately geat houses in that they are pretty influential and former kings. One step below the lord paramounts, not more. If they hadn´t been fighting one of them had been replacing Tullys long time ago, I suspect.

21 hours ago, Vaith said:

So as for the notion that it's not as bad for women of great houses, I don't really know. Obviously a woman of a great house is going to be a good trophy wife for anyone, but if say, it was known Margaery had sex before her marriage with Renly, she wouldn't be able to marry the king's brother, obviously, but probably not a son of any great house. Sure, an heir might want to marry her - but probably a banner house less influential than the Hightowers, Redwynes, Rowans, Tarlys, etc. and she might have ended up marrying a Vyrwel or a Meadows.

Pttth - Margaery was married to Renly because he had ambitions to become king and needed an army to enforce it. And there is no way he get that army without that marriage so Mace can see his grandkids on the throne. Margery could have fucked like Gatehouse Ami times three and still became Renlys wife. In addition, Renly himself is not that of a great catch, due to his "open secret".

And if the Hightowers and Redwynes didn´t want her then certainly Tarly and Rowan. winning the favor of Highgarden is important since it gives you winning support against all rivals in the region. A Vyrwel or a Meadows...seriously

21 hours ago, Vaith said:

In terms of explaining the ideal and what's expected, well, because of Westeros' very patriarchal nature and the system of inheritance through the male line, there can be no suspicion of a child actually being a bastard. Therefore everywhere but Dorne it's thought that a woman not being a maiden at marriage could lead to her being more likely to cheat, and the child not being the husband's. 

Except that they care more about power and money even if they refuses to admit it. Look at poor Jeyne, first Westerling daughter and comely - can´t even get one of Ser Kevans son despite her virginity.

If the ideal doesn´t show on paper then it is a false ideal with only empty words spreading in the wind.

[Vaith]

5 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

I think most people know better than that. It is certainly on peoples wish-lists like "I am gonna train myself into shape this year".

Life also starts exceptional characters. Sorry you missed that.

Yeah, but because the books are novels, we see more and more characters that defy the norm of what's expected. Not everyone in Westeros are Daeneryses or Ashas; IMO what they experience would be different for, say, a Targaryen princess who was one of Egg's sisters, or a daughter of Lord Greyjoy who wasn't a captain of a ship. The books also happen at a rather exceptional time in Westeros - while rebellions and civil wars have certainly happened before, and in some cases been very severe like the Dance of the Dragons and Blackfyre Rebellions - they usually didn't cause as much turmoil as replacing two great houses, so many factions fighting for power, etc, and this situation can sometimes undermine the usual social norms.

11 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Delena Florent is also not of the main line. She is the daughter of Colin Florent, the younger son of Lord alester and the castellan. Marrying her fathers bannerman was the likeliest outcome anyway. And as you say, Lady Butterwell Frey got a good marriage despite her mishap. She most likely got it due to the difference in age, but (tragically) there are many girls who would love to be in her position.

And Lysa Tully was considered fit to marry Jaime due to that Tywin wanted an alliance with Hoster. They had been discussing a betrothal before Jaimes introduction in the Kingsguard. Its almost like Tywin didn´t care about how much she had fucked Littlefinger and more about the potential benefit with her birth and blood, but what do I know.

What you say about Delena is true, I suppose, and I can't assume that Hosman Norcross is a particularly distant scion or that the banner house isn't very wealthy or something. Walder's sister's marriage is talked about in the novella as if it wouldn't have happened if not for the affair - and while a Wode girl might love to marry Lord Butterwell, it is of course relative to the standing of the house. Also the Jaime/Lysa match happened before the affair: Jaime joined the Kingsguard in 281 and it was in 282 that the Catelyn/Brandon wedding was announced, leading to the subsequent duel and Lysa sleeping with Littlefinger. However I will admit that Tywin could have still agreed with it (maybe) because of "southron ambitions" and valuing a Tully alliance over an intact maidenhead, yes - but in say the rule of Jaehaerys I I think a Lord Lannister really wouldn't want to marry his heir to a "soiled" Tully maiden.

17 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Galazza can go screw herself. She needed Daenerys for that alliance and if Daenerys sexual apetite makes her queasy then she should stop insisting on a marriage. It is also very interesting that all these cases that you mention - Lady Barbrey, Asha, Daenerys, Maege, Alysanne that none so far seems to have suffered any negative consequences from this choice, apart maybe from some scorn.

I agree that Galazza should stop being so squeamish and I'm all for Dany's sexual agency! But the fact that she does behave so squeamishly is because she doesn't want the Dany/Hizdahr marriage undermined by any potential kids not being his. As I said, the rumours about Maege and Alysane are kind of ridiculous considering they're about bears and could likely just be about their masculine traits rather than any extramarital or premarital sex, and again, we don't know how widespread knowledge is of Barbrey and Asha's affairs since we either hear it from Asha personally or from Barbrey talking to someone with no power at a very sentimental time.

So it is all about appearances, I suppose, because nobody can ever no for sure - but as much as I can't say for certain knowledge of this isn't public, I really don't think they're being very open about what affairs they have or may have had (though sure, I don't really think Asha's men at Deepwood Motte think she and Qarl are "praying" or what have you).

23 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Merrett is a idiot. He got lucky that his own fat daughter got apprecianted for her fatness and was married of well (and is surprised that he isn´t rewarded for it!). Because that is what you forget in this post - you don´t compare a woman against an imaginary pictore of the perfect maiden. you compare her against the other living options. And of course the mistresses got influence, why else fuck Aegon IV if you don´t get anything for it. Hookers cost money and if you don´t pay up you won´t get ny more hookers.

Brackens and Blackwoods are definately geat houses in that they are pretty influential and former kings. One step below the lord paramounts, not more. If they hadn´t been fighting one of them had been replacing Tullys long time ago, I suspect.

Sure Merrett's an idiot, but I don't think anyone wants to marry their daughter off to a landless, nameless hedge knight? While I agree that Ami's extremely far down the line of succession and it's surprising the Freys have as many good marriages as they do (or not, we don't know how many wives are distant cousins and such) I think she would've been destined for maybe a younger son of a lesser knightly house - not Pate of the Blue Fork.

I should've clarified that when I talk about Great Houses I do mean the paramount houses, so I agree with you there, and though it is a little telling Aegon had no Lannister, Tully, Baratheon etc mistresses, the Blackwoods and Brackens are pretty great. And the mistresses got influence because Aegon created a court structure of open mistresses which wasn't really followed by any subsequent kings. And there is no "picture of the perfect maid", but well, during this time, there was Aegon's wife, Naerys, who was essentially that, as well as his cousin Rhaena who became a septa (and sure, there were Daena and Elaena - but it seems Daena was too defiant for any marriage after having Daemon, and Elaena - a king's daughter - first married a very old westerlander lord who doesn't even seem to be the most influential in the world, and then to a member of House Penrose - which is a good banner house of the stormlands I'll admit, but we don't even know if Ronnel was the lord, and I would say it's a little middling for a princess anyway.)

32 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Pttth - Margaery was married to Renly because he had ambitions to become king and needed an army to enforce it. And there is no way he get that army without that marriage so Mace can see his grandkids on the throne. Margery could have fucked like Gatehouse Ami times three and still became Renlys wife. In addition, Renly himself is not that of a great catch, due to his "open secret".

And if the Hightowers and Redwynes didn´t want her then certainly Tarly and Rowan. winning the favor of Highgarden is important since it gives you winning support against all rivals in the region. A Vyrwel or a Meadows...seriously

Well, in my hypothetical scenario I wasn't factoring the War of Five Kings into it - I should've made that clearer, I just mean in a regular no-conflict scenario. And really, an "open secret" might devalue a husband a little, but the Lord of Storm's End is always the Lord of Storm's End.

Winning the favour of Highgarden is important for sure, and a particularly shrewd lord might ignore a woman being "soiled" if he really wanted some more influence. But idealised maidenhood is a hell of a drug in believing a woman's value on the marriage market steeply drops. Also yeah, I wouldn't say a Vyrwel or a Meadows is a stretch considering Janna Tyrell is married to a green-apple Fossoway, the junior branch, despite not appearing to have an affair.

39 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Except that they care more about power and money even if they refuses to admit it. Look at poor Jeyne, first Westerling daughter and comely - can´t even get one of Ser Kevans son despite her virginity.

If the ideal doesn´t show on paper then it is a false ideal with only empty words spreading in the wind.

I suppose when talking about virginity in Westeros it's true that Westeros can have a lot of conflicts which undermine the social codes of peacetime. Lancel marries Ami because of Darry, when in peacetime, if Kevan had to pick between her and Jeyne Westerling, I really think he would've picked Jeyne any day. So, as much as the ideal exists, yes, circumstances can exist which undermine it... but just because Jeyne was off the table for Lancel, Kevan and Martyn, that could just be because there were Prester, Marbrand, Crakehall, Farman and Serrett girls available with a higher dowry?

So yeah, extramarital sex "ruining" a woman does differ on each case. But I think it's a risk too great to be free of consequences, even for princesses and daughters of paramount houses.

[Nevets]

 

Delena Florent was married off to a household knight, not an ordinary bannerman.  That is a lot worse than I would have expected, considering the Florents are a major family without a large number of eligible daughters, and considering that her cousin Selyse married the king's brother. Apparently getting impregnated by the king doesn't help you much.

Jon appeared to be genuinely shocked by Ygritte's attitude and behavior regarding sex.   While he may be a little sensitive due to his bastardy, it does suggest that he was unused to unmarried women having a sex life, or at least looked down upon it.  i got no impression that his attitude was any different from anyone else's

Asha Greyjoy and Arianne are special cases in that their fathers don't appear to have any plans for marrying them off.  Balon seems to regard Asha as a sort of son; a replacement for Theon, if you will.  And Doran has plans to marry Arianne to Viserys.  So her cavorting around isn't a real problem.  It is interesting that Arianne seemed a bit upset that Doran didn't do anything when she was deflowered at 14.  Apparently, even in Dorne, there are expected limits.

Part of the problem is that this series isn't really about good, well-behaved individuals, whether young women or anyone else.  We therefore don't really have any good way to measure what the expectations are.  And I suspect it varies widely.  Who the girl is, who she is involved with, how discreet she is, whether or not she has multiple partners, has been pregnant, and the like.  For example to use Bethany Blackwood as an example, if 10 years from now, she has a reputation for sleeping around, finding a good marriage would likely prove difficult.  Blackwood isn't that prominent a house any more, certainly not one where suitors would overlook behavior issues like that.

On the other hand, Myrcella can probably get away with a lot more, simply because, as the king's sister, she is a desirable match under any circumstances.  So, in essence is chastity important?  it depends, but I would say that is probably a factor, and a reputation for being unchaste will probably cause problems.  Which means that most girls will probably be discreet, and probably have sex only occasionally, if they have it at all before marriage.  Which will probably come at a relatively early age; certainly earlier than the modern-day norm.

 

[HoodedCrow]

I have good news. Westerns and some modern religions don't seem to frown on sexual pleasure, which doesn't require fornication. However some modern religions, correct me if I'm wrong, foster great guilt by including pleasure as sinfulness. They make you have to confess euww, to your authoritarian overlords to be able to participate in church or be worthy of temple activities. Who, even the High Sparrow, does that?

There is a lot of predjudice in present day life against female pleasure, in particular, and still more effort to shame them about being used chewing gum, and in the USA there is a lot of pressure not to have solid birth control methods, and to have unwanted children. In the European past women could be killed for unfaithfulness, and some modern cultures still have this even for suspected fornication. But in Westeros, there was moon tea, and women were allowed to ride horses astride. 

Robb did allow himself to marry Jeanne Westerling, though, and doom his family. I don't think the characters are necessarily consistent. I think the author looks at different attitudes, quite deliberately. There is the High Sparrow and there is Tyrion.

[Jaak]

23 hours ago, Protagoras said:

No one is going to champion a bastard known as such

Daeron Falseborn vs. Daemon Blackfyre?

Both had champions.

As for Daemon, Aegon was claiming Naerys had cheated on him... but he never did in his lifetime make the step of formally disinheriting Daeron. And as for Daemon, he was undeniably born a bastard.

Naerys was Aegon´s sister, so everyone who was Daeron´s kin on the certain side also was Aegon´s kin... but Daeron also had a wife Myriah, thanks to Baelor not Aegon, meaning that Martells were bound to champion Falseborn. As for Daemon, Daena´s maternal kin were Velaryons, who had not dared rise when her uncle usurped her throne... but Daemon was married to Rohanne of Tyrosh. Yet Daemon was not in Westeros purely as a Tyroshi invader - he found champions within Westeros as well.

 

Now compare Robert grumbling that Cersei´s children aren´t his... while a lot of Westeros denies it as an outrageous, self-serving lie and explains it simply as Robert having a crush on Margaery.

23 hours ago, Protagoras said:

and if those grooms have so little mandom that they can´t keep control of my daughter under their roof then they only got themselves to blame. I am going to point out to that groom that A. Only shitty, uncaring husbands get cheated on,

Or only shitty, slutty wives cheat.

We do hear that Cersei at first made some effort to make her marriage with Robert work, and only after Robert was caught cheating with an Estermont cousin did she consummate her love for Jaime.

Jon Arryn probably was not cheating.

Would Cersei have stayed faithful to Jon Arryn if she had been married to him?

(And though Lysa may not have cheated on Jon, she did murder him.)

[maudisdottir]

On 1/7/2017 at 11:32 AM, Protagoras said:

Do you think Mr Darcy would have discarded Elizabeth if she had been used goods? I doubt it - he might have made fuss about it (as many men do lip service to the idea) but thats simply not how it works, and in that case love was a factor - Mr Darcy actually had choices.

Pride & Prejudice is a poor example if you're trying to prove virginity and reputation aren't important.  The entire second half of the book has the family (and Darcy) scrambling to save Lydia's reputation, otherwise the family would be ruined and none of the Bennett girls would be able to make good marriages or even remain in Society.  Darcy would never consider a girl like Lizzy if she had already been with another man.

So yes, absolutely Mr Darcy would have discarded Elizabeth if he had discovered she had a past.

[Jaak]

23 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I think that it depends on who the woman is, for example a Targaryen princess who had pre marital sex wouldn’t had the same treatment with a Hetherspoon or even a Tully. The virginity would matter if the bride was of equal or lower rank than the one of her groom’s, if the bride is of higher rank the groom wouldn’t care. For example if a Targaryen princess marries a lord who isn't a prince even someone of a Great House she still is of higher rank and is different from a woman of a Great house marrying a man of a Great House.

Winter Child? Gael.

Got pregnant by a travelling singer - and had nothing better to do than drown herself.

[ftheking]

Quote

You're right that at the time Petyr did believe he was with Catelyn. But it stands to reason (but I don't recall anything in the text which substantiates this) that he learned otherwise once he sobered up/woke up and found himself in the tangled embrace of Cat's annoying little sister. And he was promptly sent away.

Oh no, the whole story is explained. Petyr definitely believed he bedded Cat, or rather she him, that's why he fought Brandon, as mentioned. Then he was hurt and Lysa comforted him again. This time he knew it was her. Therefore both their maidenheads. Also this time Lysa got pregnant and told her father - THEN Petyr was sent away, the child aborted and poor Lysa married to Jon Arryn. No one knows the truth about the first night, but Lysa. But she doesn't seem to realise that Petyr doesn't know.

It's one of my favorite reveals. Littlefinger is actually telling what he believes to be the truth, who'd have ever thought! He is not trying to smear anyone. He is just showing off, deservedly as he believes.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

46 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Winter Child? Gael.

Got pregnant by a travelling singer - and had nothing better to do than drown herself.

She did it with her own free will, it wasn't the society which forced her to do it.  Also we don't even know why she did it. It was because she felt in love with him and she was abandoned or because she was simple-minded?

A better example is Elaena. She not only wasn't a virgin but she had two bastards and yet married three times.