Virginity: Important of Chastity in Westeros

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

On the TV Show, of course, pre-marital sex for women is portrayed as very common, and not a problem in the least, as long as it's not flaunted.

 

But how is it seen in most of Westeros, in the books? We know that Dorne cares nothing for it. And in some parts of the North, it matters not as well.

 

But what of the perception of it in Westeros, as well as it's importance? If, for instance, it was an open secret that Princess Myrcella, assuming that she's 18 Years Old, is promiscuous, how would that affect her marriage prospects?

For us, in the 21st Century it is preferable to marry someone with experience. What about Westeros?

[Lady Lia]

Pretty important. Girls known to have had sex outside of marriage don't have great marriage prospects, from what we've seen. Ami Frey got caught and had to be hurriedly married off to a hedge knight; Delena Florent (well-connected and presumably pretty) married well below her station after having a bastard son; Lysa didn't get caught because her father hushed it up and cut a deal with Jon Arryn, but that hushing up itself shows it was a problem. Westeros is based on medieval Europe where, as a general rule, a woman's chastity was a very big deal.

Dorne does things a bit differently, but I wouldn't assume Arianne is typical. As the Martell heiress she can get away with a lot, and she's not the most prudent person in the first place. I'm not sure what you're referring to about the North, but if you mean Barbrey Ryswell/Dustin, that doesn't seem to have been public knowledge.

[Protagoras]

To more or less copy-paste my response from the Jeyne thread with some added bonusmaterial:

Chastity is overrated. After all, you make the marriage with a family you want an alliance with so if I am a powerful lord and have a total slut for daugther (but only one, two or maybe maybe three daughters at most) it doesn´t matter if she is a known "horse-rider". She is still the person people need to marry if they want my favor (and my armies, and my trade, and...you get the picture) and that my daughter have had some "fun" with an unsuitable gentleman, that´s the kind of problems I expect to get sooner or later. Gatehouse Ami´s largest problem is not her "hobbies", it is that A. Her hobbies got exposed B. That she is a member in a family with many, many, many family-members and daughters who easily can take her place as well as C. That due to that many members, the lord doesn´t care about you personally. 

So if you are, say Bethany Blackwood, who is the lone daughter in a family who dotes you, you can have all the adult fun you want without any consequences as long as you take your moon tea and at least have some discretion (like, not fucking openly on the road). If you are Gatehouse Ami, you might not have the same leeway, but your blood is still much, much important than your enjoyments - as shown when her Darry blood-connections was used to marry Lancel and become Lady Darry.

I somehow get the picture that while sex isn´t something that is officially approved, flirtation and admiring men for their masculinity certainly is. To act like a lady means to be socially active after all, not being a silent ornament. They are after all raised in a chivalry mythos in a culture focused on breeding. And if you are in Dorne, you have even MORE freedom in this.

Now, I am not saying it has zero value. If a lord has a pick between three sisters on who will become his spouse a virgin might have an advantage. But then, Roose Bolton took the fattest since he wanted money. But at the end it comes down to realpolitik and if my dauther has a reputation, but you want my friendship you will have to marry her. And don´t forget Westeros has no christianity (lucky them!), who calls sex sin. These things are sort of expected - as discussed in the Jeyne thread - the list on women cheating or having premarriage sex is pretty long compared with the number of known married woman faithful (just Catelyn of the people we know) or maiden (and no, Sansa and Arya don´t count - they havn´t flowered yet).

[The Agency of Sansa Stark]

Not nearly as important as it should be, that I can tell you.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

How much does Moon Tea (Birth Control) affect female sexualiy in Westeros compared to the medieval times in our world, where no reliable form existed? We have Cersei, whi certainly is sleeping with several different men every year, while preventing pregnancy and being able to selectively choose who sires her children.

[Lady Lia]

Yes, having read the Jeyne thread I see this is a spinoff.

I think your view is taking it too far. Virginity certainly isn't the be-all and end-all of ones value in the marriage market - many men are happy to overlook their betrothed's past if she's sufficiently well-connected, or dowried, or pretty. And marrying a widow is perfectly respectable, and Margaery Tyrell aside, no one expects a widow to be a virgin. However, I don't think an average Westerosi maiden can get away with taking lovers and expecting her family's money and power to cancel that out. Even Arianne and Asha aren't openly sleeping around - remember, Tris Botley is shocked to hear that Asha's not a maid. Tris being a bit of a lovesick twit aside, if Asha was well-known to have lovers, he should have heard about it.

Westeros doesn't have Christianity. It does have the Faith of the Seven which is a close analogue and which we've seen is actually quite preoccupied with chastity. The High Sparrow may be an extremist, but he's not making the whole thing up from scratch.

[Lady Lia]

Now, what people are supposed to do and what they do do are of course two quite different things. People have been sneaking around and sleeping with each other through pretty much all of history. So I imagine that there are quite a few respectable Westerosi ladies with more of a past than they'd admit to - but they're not admitting to it for good reason. 

[Protagoras]

15 minutes ago, Lady Lia said:

Yes, having read the Jeyne thread I see this is a spinoff.

I think your view is taking it too far. Virginity certainly isn't the be-all and end-all of ones value in the marriage market - many men are happy to overlook their betrothed's past if she's sufficiently well-connected, or dowried, or pretty. And marrying a widow is perfectly respectable, and Margaery Tyrell aside, no one expects a widow to be a virgin. However, I don't think an average Westerosi maiden can get away with taking lovers and expecting her family's money and power to cancel that out. Even Arianne and Asha aren't openly sleeping around - remember, Tris Botley is shocked to hear that Asha's not a maid. Tris being a bit of a lovesick twit aside, if Asha was well-known to have lovers, he should have heard about it.

Westeros doesn't have Christianity. It does have the Faith of the Seven which is a close analogue and which we've seen is actually quite preoccupied with chastity. The High Sparrow may be an extremist, but he's not making the whole thing up from scratch.

I think some can - even if Asha had been calling Qarl her "cuntwarmer" in public, it would have been met by laughter and little if no reaction from Balon. She is still her only daughter and the only person you can marry if you want Balons support apart from Theon. Arianne will be the next ruler of Sunspear - you think people will pass on that if Daemon Sand and Ser Arys becomes public knowledge? I certainly don´t.

But yes, the key-part is most certainly openly, as I wrote myself before. And how many daughters you have. And who your dad are. And if people have many choices. And so on and on. And yes, saying that you slept around is a no-no, but because of social reasons that in the end most likely won´t matter. I mean, in Westeros Littlefinger brags wrongly about Catelyns maidenhead to everyone - and no one sees any problem with that. They have a bedding, which seems more like an excuse to touch peoples private parts. And the people we know to be "true" are either very dutyful or, like in Briennes case, might not have had that many suitors.

To go back to that Jeyne thread - Jeyne couldn´t get one of ser Kevans sons in marriage despite being pure. So clearly people choose from other parameters and see maidenhead like a nice little bonus that is marketed extremely agressive by those who has a daughter with it. So, yeah - overrated is clearly the word I want to use here. Its the kind of thing certain men say they want, but in reality care very little about.

Edit: Westeros might have the Seven, but the seven lacks much of the religious dogma that christianty has and had. There is no real body of positions forming the Sevens most essential beliefs, morality-wise. And while certainly your priest is important if you are commoners, the nobility has historically and in Westeros pretty much done their own thing. And they seem to have no real selling point, like christianity has, that only nice maidens go to heaven and sluts to Hell ie an afterlife where you will be judged.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

If Princess Myrcella, assuming she was 18 Years Old, enjoyed an active and promiscuous sex life, how would that affect her marriage prospects.

2 Scenarios -

 

1. It's an "open secret" similar to Renly and Loras homosexual relationship.

 

2. It's not an open secret - rather, it is wel knowm among the general population. Though she does take measures not to flaunt it.

[The Agency of Sansa Stark]

12 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

I think some can - even if Asha had been calling Qarl her "cuntwarmer" in public, it would have been met by laughter and little if no reaction from Balon. She is still her only daughter and the only person you can marry if you want Balons support apart from Theon. Arianne will be the next ruler of Sunspear - you think people will pass on that if Daemon Sand and Ser Arys becomes public knowledge? I certainly don´t.

But yes, the key-part is most certainly openly, as I wrote myself before. And how many daughters you have. And who your dad are. And if people have many choices. And so on and on. And yes, saying that you slept around is a no-no, but because of social reasons that in the end most likely won´t matter. I mean, in Westeros Littlefinger brags wrongly about Catelyns maidenhead to everyone - and no one sees any problem with that. They have a bedding, which seems more like an excuse to touch peoples private parts. And the people we know to be "true" are either very dutyful or, like in Briennes case, might not have had that many suitors.

To go back to that Jeyne thread - Jeyne couldn´t get one of ser Kevans sons in marriage despite being pure. So clearly people choose from other parameters and see maidenhead like a nice little bonus that is marketed extremely agressive by those who has a daughter with it. So, yeah - overrated is clearly the word I want to use here. Its the kind of thing certain men say they want, but in reality care very little about.

Edit: Westeros might have the Seven, but the seven lacks much of the religious dogma that christianty has and had. There is no real body of positions forming the Sevens most essential beliefs, morality-wise. And while certainly your priest is important if you are commoners, the nobility has historically and in Westeros pretty much done their own thing. And they seem to have no real selling point, like christianity has, that only nice maidens go to heaven and sluts to Hell ie an afterlife where you will be judged.

It's possible that Littkefinger was Cat's first.

[Protagoras]

Just now, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

If Princess Myrcella, assuming she was 18 Years Old, enjoyed an active and promiscuous sex life, how would that affect her marriage prospects.

2 Scenarios -

 

1. It's an "open secret" similar to Renly and Loras homosexual relationship.

 

2. It's not an open secret - rather, it is wel knowm among the general population. Though she does take measures not to flaunt it.

1. Nothing. As long as the marriage comes with the blessing of king Tommen, noone but the most religious nuts would look even twice.

2. Some might withdraw, but she is still the freaking sister of the king. Even IF she had open sex on the street its likelier that the king would give her to the silent sisters in order to be seen as pious then that no one from the aristocracy would marry her.

She should be able to get plenty of offers from anyone but maybe (big maybe) the lord paramounts.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

1 hour ago, Lady Lia said:

 I'm not sure what you're referring to about the North, but if you mean Barbrey Ryswell/Dustin, that doesn't seem to have been public knowledge.

The Mormonts seem to be openly promiscuous.

[maudisdottir]

One word - paternity.

Men preferred a virgin so they could be sure that any heirs were their own children and not the love child of the wife and her paramour.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

5 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

One word - paternity.

Men preferred a virgin so they could be sure that any heirs were their own children and not the love child of the wife and her paramour.

In the medieval times of our world, yes.

 

But Westeros has Moon Tea, a very reliable form of Birth Control.

[Nevets]

46 minutes ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

In the medieval times of our world, yes.

 

But Westeros has Moon Tea, a very reliable form of Birth Control.

From the limited description from the books, and from some of George's comments (no I don't have source material), Moon Tea is similar to actual sources of birth control  and abortificiants available in the middle ages.  It is not particularly safe (it has some pretty hazardous stuff in it), it isn't particularly convenient, and I've no idea of its reliability.  From what I can tell, it is more of a "morning after" drug than something taken on a regular basis.

I would expect that those whose fathers are especially powerful might have some leeway.  Of course, if their fathers are that powerful, they might also have means to severely limit their daughters' movements and activities.   And I seem to recall that Arianne was somewhat surprised that her father didn't do anything about it.

[Maxxine]

1 hour ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

The Mormonts seem to be openly promiscuous.

I don't think so unless I'm forgetting something (which is very possible). I know there's the mystery of where Maege's children come from considering there's never mention of husband (Tormund lol) but idk if that necessarily translates to openly promiscuous.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

31 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

I don't think so unless I'm forgetting something (which is very possible). I know there's the mystery of where Maege's children come from considering there's never mention of husband (Tormund lol) but idk if that necessarily translates to openly promiscuous.

Alysanne is promiscuous.

[Maxxine]

28 minutes ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

Alysanne is promiscuous.

I guess I should ask what your definition of promiscuous is bc Alysane has the same mystery as Maege (children without a husband) But that doesn't mean she's promiscuous. We don't have any evidence of promiscuity for any Mormont woman that I can remember.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

10 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

I guess I should ask what your definition of promiscuous is bc Alysane has the same mystery as Maege (children without a husband) But that doesn't mean she's promiscuous. We don't have any evidence of promiscuity for any Mormont woman that I can remember.

In this discussiom, promiscuous just means that a prrson has an active sex life outside of marriage.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Important enough.

One tends to forget that more likely than not, many nobles are in fact quite religious.

Also there is the fear of being cuckolded, not only because the bride would be pregnant before the marriage, but because the prejudice that a woman who enjoys her sexuality could be unfaithful.

 

Quote

“Which brings us back to the five remaining daughters of Elys and Alys. The eldest had been left terribly scarred by the same pox that killed her sisters, so she became a septa. Another was seduced by a sellsword. Ser Elys cast her out, and she joined the silent sisters after her bastard died in infancy.

 

Even for great houses it seems that a sexually active daughter seems to bring considerable shame.

Quote

The whole tale soon came out, in no small part thanks to Mushroom himself. King Viserys at first refused to believe a word of it until Prince Daemon himself confirmed that the tale was true. “Give the girl to me to wife,” he purportedly told his brother. “Who else would take her now?” Instead King Viserys sent him into exile, never to return to the Seven Kingdoms on pain of death.

 

Not least important is the fact that even if you yourself dont care much about your future bride "innocence", her reputation is pretty important. power bring enemies, and enemies create tales of illegictimacy pretty easily. "we all know the mother was a whore..." kind of story that would endanger succession. So open sexuality i would say would a huge deal.