Virginity: Important of Chastity in Westeros

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

Very interesting, it seems to be largely on a case-by-case basis.

 

I'd imagine that as long as it's kept discreet, moon tea is used, and the lover is set aside several months before marriage, that it could be overlooked.

[maudisdottir]

I doubt most medieval/Westerosi noblemen would be so chilled about it.  If a bride had a history of sex before marriage, the groom could never be sure that any children born of the marriage were his (once a harlot etc).  Moon tea isn't really a factor - why would any lord be OK with that?  There would always be a risk that the wife was aborting his legitimate child.

[Gertrude]

It seems that the norm for Houses that follow the Seven (most of them), chastity is important as you would expect. The Faith is similar enough to the Christian tradition that feel fairly comfortable roughly equating the two. So there is a religious aspect to it - the charges against Marge show that. And obviously paternity plays into it. The outliers seem to be the Mormont women, Asha and the Dornish.

We don't really have any good information about the North and those who follow the old gods. We mainly see the Starks and Cat has a lot of influence here with her Southern views. Rickard Stark perhaps also had Southron ambitions, so what we see here isn't necessarily typical of the Northern houses. I'd imagine they roughly follow the Southern view, but I also kind of expect there to be more outliers as well - the Mormont women being the prime example. The wildlings follow the old gods and put no religious value on it, so if the Northern houses value it, it must be influence from the South, or to protect their inheritance.

Asha is kind of her own animal - she has been treated as the heir, and thus above the usual rules. We don't know what the Drowned God has to say about it. If she expects to inherit, then she doesn't have the worry about paternity that a male ruler would have. Same goes with Arianne. She and Asha are in privileged positions and can afford to flaunt tradition to a degree. With Dorne, however, it does seem to be a more accepting culture. We haven't really seen it coming into conflict with the rest of Westeros, so either they are not quite so different than the rest of Westeros after all, or the other families that have married Dornish women just accept it.

But, as others have said, daughters are bargaining chips. Sure, you can overlook a few things is the house is connected enough. If you have your pick of the litter, however, why go with a used model when you can buy new? (bleah!) Ambitious fathers would want their daughters to present their best selves, and that is a pretty face who can dance and sew and run a household and be devoted to her new husband and their children without the ghost of a past lover looming.

Have we seen examples of women having sex/children out of wedlock in the lower classes? With a fairly reliable abortifacient and nothing important to inherit, I'd expect that the common folk would have much less of a problem with promiscuity, unless it really is just ingrained as a sin against the Faith.

(and of course this is all referring to chastity being valued as a societal ideal. In reality, sex is gonna happen all over the place. That's another reason women were married young - gives them less time to fight against human nature)

[zandru]

re: the agency of sansa stark

Quote

It's possible that Littkefinger was Cat's first.

No, it isn't. The text notes that it was Lysa, not Catelyn, that Petyr bedded; Catelyn wouldn't have anything to do with him and explicitly rejected his advances. In fact, the whole series makes a point of Catelyn's rigid sexual propriety, for herself as well as for others. Littlefinger told (and re-told and re-told to anyone who would listen) his tale to make himself look more important and to smear Catelyn for rejecting him.

It's likely that few believed him.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

Even he probably didn't believe it.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

12 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

Also there is the fear of being cuckolded, not only because the bride would be pregnant before the marriage, but because the prejudice that a woman who enjoys her sexuality could be unfaithful

1

I think this is what underlines it and why it would be both a social stigma and why it would be considered a sin.  It's all about assuring inheritance and successions going to the right progeny and that comes back to stressing from girlhood that sex is a duty to be endured.  Septas do teach that a bride must find the beauty in her husband as a way to make that duty more palatable.  So it's implied it's normal for a well-bred girl to be initially kinda repulsed by the idea, since she's likely not married by choice; therefore, the opposite must also be true that it's kinda abnormal for a well-bred girl to enjoy sex too much.  I say "too much" because it does seem to be a fine line of how much a woman is supposed to like sex.  Take the bedding ritual for example that is practiced by both men and women with equal bawdy humor and excitement.  So there is an acknowledgment that women do/should get pleasure from sex, but only from one guy that she's tied to for life and before she's had any other experience as a basis for comparison.  More than just assuring paternity, you get the sense there's a close guarding of patriarchal pride going on.  On the other hand, you also get examples in the books of bridegrooms that do make earnest efforts to be pleasing to their brides.  This certainly isn't required of them, but we can see that not all men are callous assholes and do make their wife's sexual satisfaction a priority.     

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

2 hours ago, zandru said:

re: the agency of sansa stark

No, it isn't. The text notes that it was Lysa, not Catelyn, that Petyr bedded; Catelyn wouldn't have anything to do with him and explicitly rejected his advances. In fact, the whole series makes a point of Catelyn's rigid sexual propriety, for herself as well as for others. Littlefinger told (and re-told and re-told to anyone who would listen) his tale to make himself look more important and to smear Catelyn for rejecting him.

It's likely that few believed him.

I think he actually thought Lysa was Catelyn. He was drunk and called her Cat aftewards if we can believe lysa.

[zandru]

re LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse:

You're right that at the time Petyr did believe he was with Catelyn. But it stands to reason (but I don't recall anything in the text which substantiates this) that he learned otherwise once he sobered up/woke up and found himself in the tangled embrace of Cat's annoying little sister. And he was promptly sent away.

[Lady Lia]

I don't think he ever did realise it, although it's open to interpretation. Lysa could just have slipped out as soon as he fell asleep (and probably cried herself to sleep). I doubt she spent the night with him; Catelyn or the servants would have noticed her missing. And, as you said, he was sent away afterward.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

22 minutes ago, zandru said:

re LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse:

You're right that at the time Petyr did believe he was with Catelyn. But it stands to reason (but I don't recall anything in the text which substantiates this) that he learned otherwise once he sobered up/woke up and found himself in the tangled embrace of Cat's annoying little sister. And he was promptly sent away.

 

Quote

That was the night I stole up to his bed to give him comfort. I bled, but it was the sweetest hurt. He told me he loved me then, but he called me Cat, just before he fell back to sleep. Even so, I stayed with him until the sky began to lighten.

 

This could imply she left before he woke up.  Theres also the letter Petyr sent Cat before, that she never opened. I think LF always thought he had that one night with Catelyn..

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

Must have irked him to find out he hadn't.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

maybe he never did and thats the whole point about LF.

What if he always thought he did spend that night with Catelyn, and that she had feelings for him...

So he goes on and challenges Brandon to a duel, gets wounded. Cat saves his life by pleading Brandon to spare him. and he gets banished from Riverrun...

LF writes her a letter.. she never answers. we readers know she never actually read it, but he doesnt... all he knows is that she goes on and marries to the Starks of winterfell, choosing to become lady of the North rather than marrying him.. a lowborn baelish from nowhere...

so he grows bitter and motivated to ascend socially to get a title that might have won the hand of catelyn back then.. and now tries to remake history with Cat 2.0.. sansa.

 

[Lady Lia]

Right, after posting yesterday I figured out it was probably Maege and Alysane rather than Barbrey you meant.

I freely admit to having no idea what's up with the Mormonts. Possibilities include:

-Maege and Alysane are in fact married to perfectly respectable men who aren't important to Northern politics/the narrative, and the bear stories are just their way of amusing themselves at the expense of the gullible.

-Bear Islanders don't care all that much about legitimacy, and Maege and Alysane claim their bastards as legitimate heirs on the assumption that no one outside Bear Island cares enough about the Mormont succession to investigate either.

-Mormont women habitually engage in ritual marriage to bears in order to produce 'legitimate' heirs when there's a shortage of male Mormonts and/or marriageable men, the children actually being fathered by unmarriageable men (smallfolk, wildlings, already married men, whoever). If I had to guess I'd probably go with this one.

-They really are skinchangers? Who knows.

In any case, Bear Island is definitely an exception to rules about What Proper Ladies Do.

[Protagoras]

On 2017-01-05 at 11:30 PM, maudisdottir said:

One word - paternity.

Men preferred a virgin so they could be sure that any heirs were their own children and not the love child of the wife and her paramour.

But thats no real reason to prefer a virgin.

To be sure that any heirs are my children, I need to make sure no one but me is fucking my wife from this moment and forward.

But she doesn´t need to be a virgin for that. She only need to have not slept with a man for 3-4 months and not being pregnant. Who have fucked my wife in the past have no bearing to the children we make rigth now. Otherwise, no one would marry widows either.

[Protagoras]

18 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

Important enough.

 

One tends to forget that more likely than not, many nobles are in fact quite religious.

 

Also there is the fear of being cuckolded, not only because the bride would be pregnant before the marriage, but because the prejudice that a woman who enjoys her sexuality could be unfaithful.

 

 

Even for great houses it seems that a sexually active daughter seems to bring considerable shame.

 

Not least important is the fact that even if you yourself dont care much about your future bride "innocence", her reputation is pretty important. power bring enemies, and enemies create tales of illegictimacy pretty easily. "we all know the mother was a whore..." kind of story that would endanger succession. So open sexuality i would say would a huge deal. 

 

 

Prince Daemon is not really a great example,  since he himself is willing to take her and undercuts her devaluation in order to improve his deal. I am pretty sure Rhaenyra would have had many offers still. As for Ser Elys daugther, well - he had five of them and clearly didn´t care that much about her, but placed his own self-value above it. And now we are not talking "losing virginity" any longer but "came with child", which is far harder to cover up. And Ser Elys might have taken a moral stance, but he lost on it too - now he has one less child to power-play with. Children are hard currency and that he is so willing to throw one away means that he is stupid, have morals that force him to take economic losses or is too poor to care for his family in its current state.

And certainly there is a risk to be sent to the silent sisters if your dad disapproves, but thats a risk always. Fireball sent his wife there because he wanted to be in the kingsguard. Daugthers get sent there after a lost war.

[Protagoras]

13 hours ago, Gertrude said:

If you have your pick of the litter, however, why go with a used model when you can buy new?

Because there are not a consuming market with millions of "vehicles". At best, you might have 4 or 5 choices and all with their different minor problems. One might be speculated to be gay, one is unsocial and one is fat. Will you really pick one of those before, say a social girl who has been rumored that she had a lover 3 years ago? I wouldn´t.

Certainly, as a father you want your family to present themselves as good as possible always, but that is an unrealistic goal. Everyone will have their ghosts and being a lady means being social, active and even flirty to a degree. I would rather have a daughter in Westeros who is non-virgin and social than a person who is a virgin but shy. Because people with virginities tend to be very awkward in social situation and are not the best at market themselves usually. At worst, it might mean that they are afraid of sex and does not want it, which should be a big no-no even in Westeros.

And as for the church, The seven seems to lack its dogma as well as its enfocing power. Nor is sex and sexual thoughts described as sin, but instead they have a bedding ritual - showing naked flesh in public and as punishment shames women by stripping them nude in the streets. Westeros do seem to be more sexually open than our world, even today.

Edit: Did some grammar and added stuff

[Gertrude]

6 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Certainly, as a father you want your family to present themselves as good as possible always, but that is an unrealistic goal.

Of course, but I am talking about the ideal here, not the reality.

[Protagoras]

7 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Of course, but I am talking about the ideal here, not the reality.

Yeah, but if this fictional father is so focused on this ideal that he cannot handle when something deviates from it and reacts by sending his daugther to the silent sisters, he is pretty stupid tbh. There WILL be issues sooner or later with something and if the reaction is "cut it away", then that person won´t be very successful when it comes to gaining power and harvesting contacts and influence. Hoping for the ideal is one thing, actively working for it and demanding it from those around you is just a waste of time.

This stereotypical father who acts as a tyrant in his house, enforcing his law hard is not going to be someone who later will get the appreciation from his kids. Look at Hoster - his choice did in the long run cost his family Riverrun and the paramountship.

[Gertrude]

OK, but how does that relate to how chastity is valued in Westeros?

I agree that the ideal and reality don't often overlap much - not just chastity, but everything. No matter what societies' ideals are, many many people often fall short. I agree that chastity is one of those things that is more harmful to enforce than not, but I'm a modern woman so of course I'd say that. Wanting your children to love and respect you is also a rather modern ideal (and again, not really the topic of this discussion)

[Protagoras]

1 minute ago, Gertrude said:

OK, but how does that relate to how chastity is valued in Westeros?

I agree that the ideal and reality don't often overlap much - not just chastity, but everything. No matter what societies' ideals are, many many people often fall short. I agree that chastity is one of those things that is more harmful to enforce than not, but I'm a modern woman so of course I'd say that. Wanting your children to love and respect you is also a rather modern ideal (and again, not really the topic of this discussion)

It relates to the discussion in that these things happens and while not accepted they are hardly really that shocking. And it is therefore seen as a very minor factor. Lords are not going to choose a Jeyne Westerling before a Asha Greyjoy (assuming start of the book series) regardless of what reputation Asha has. Her power in her society and her fathers power and resources and soldiers and basically everything is more important. And again - due to the lack of Christianity and the shaming of sex, the social norm is most likely less focused on purity than ours.

So speaking about the importance of virginity is a bit of a hoax since the people who say it has more than just a marginal value imagines a situation where everything else are equal. But that is never the case. Do you think Mr Darcy would have discarded Elizabeth if she had been used goods? I doubt it - he might have made fuss about it (as many men do lip service to the idea) but thats simply not how it works, and in that case love was a factor - Mr Darcy actually had choices. In a locked arranged marriage you have even less flexibilty. You marry the person your family wants due to political and economic reasons and at best you got a say over several candidates. Can you see Ned Stark disinherit or send Arya to the sisters over this? Or that no one of his bannermen would have a marriage offer?

So if you are gatehouse Ami in a family with many, many, many siblings (and you only need to marry one of them to get the favor of the crossing) you have a problem. If you are Asha (or basically anyone who lives in a family where you are reasonably liked and seen as valuable, like Arya) this is a non-issue, other than there will be some dissapointment over what you have done from those in position to judge you (you father, mother and close relatives). Your future husband won´t be in such a position - if he has heard rumors yet still buys you, then he really can´t compain about it afterwards. He took the deal because he liked the pros and thought the cons was to few. If he STILL complains about those cons then he is just a hypocrite.