Thought's on the Other's hatred for the Night's Watch, some fun speculation on Swords, and a wee bit on Slender, graceful grey eyed Commanders.

[Macgregor of the North]

With recent threads from myself, LmL and Nocturne touching on the ancient Westeros/Northern myths and legends of the Long Night, The Last Hero and the Nights King, some thoughts have came to me. 

Naturally, I type notes like the rest of us.

I have long argued that the Others in the AGOT Prologue set a trap for whom they believed to be a very important person. Possibly even the leader, of their thousands year old foes, The Nights Watch. 

The references to Waymars garb, the commanding way he behaves (well he is the commander), and his very fancy jewel hilted shiny looking sword all draw me to the conclusion that the Others think they may have happened across the leader of the Nights Watch of this era and that he still carries the blade of Dragonsteel that slayed many of their kind thousands of years previous. 

AFFC SAMWELL I:

"I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

The whole duel scene, while it highlights possible importance of the blood, is infact (IMO) more about the sword. 

It is only after Waymar lifts it up high that the back up Others show their presence, ready to back their leader up should he melt away and be turned to mist. This is what I believe more and more each time I read the Prologue.

AGOT PROLOGUE:

"Ser Waymar met him bravely. "Dance with me then." He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night's Watch.

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope. 

They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five …"

It is not until Waymar lunges screaming "For Robert!", and his blade collides with the Others shattering Waymars blade that the text tells us that there has been some sort of signal given and the back up Others move in, seemingly safe now in the knowledge that this commanding leader type young man was holding nothing more than shiny brand new fancy looking jewel hilted - everyday castle forged steel. 

AGOT PROLOGUE:

"When the blades touched, the steel shattered.

A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. Royce went to his knees, shrieking, and covered his eyes. Blood welled between his fingers. 

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles."

I personally believe there is absolutely no shadow of a doubt the Others detest the Nights Watch.
Check the Waymar killing with the mocking and the laughing. The Jafer and Othor mission with the purpose of killing the Lord Commander and others including high ranking officers. The massacre at the Fist during the Great ranging. You get the idea. 

When I think of this hatred I usually attribute it to the original defeat of the Others in the War for the Dawn which saw them retreat back to the Lands of Always Winter. 

But, the Others never always had this hatred, at one stage in the past after the War for the Dawn, the Others had a working agreement with the Nights Watch. 

An agreement that involved sacrifice, a pale blue eyed Sorceress, and the Nights King. 

'If' the Nights King was the Last Hero, the thirteenth man to lead the Nights Watch, possibly in reference to him being the thirteenth man of the original twelve companions, and it was he who held up this agreement with the Others to offer them sacrifices, then it wasn't until he was overthrown that this hatred started against the Nights Watch. 

AGOT BRAN IV:

"So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions."

ASOS BRAN IV:

"The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear."

ASOS BRAN IV:

"For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden."

This piece follows on from recent discussions in the threads by the posters mentioned at the beginning, and I propose that the Last Hero was the man who made an agreement with the Others in the War for the Dawn (with the help of the Cotf, as a means to breaking the communication/language barrier) that the Nights Watch would make sacrifices to the Others in return for a stop to the devastation and fighting. 

The Others were willing to parley in the first place with the Last Hero as they feared his blade and possibly also the Dragonglass the Cotf were (likely) supplying the humans with and couldn't risk their kind being wiped out as if they fall, then... well nobody wants that do they. 

I think this Last Hero was a founding member of House Stark, and his own brother set up residence in Winterfell, which is obviously a place/location of immense importance in its own right, but I will leave that out here. 

Fearing the Others growing too strong due to the sacrifices replenishing their power and numbers, and how his brother, the Last Hero and Lord Commander of the Nights Watch had taken a dark turn and had taken to calling himself the Nights King and placed a pale skinned blue eyed Icy Sorceress at his side as his Queen, he rode on the Wall to bring his dark regime down, end the sacrifices (and the pact), rid the Wall of the Nights Kings followers and his Queen and restore a more wholesome order to the Nights Watch. 

This man was allegedly named Brandon "the Breaker" Stark. Quite a fitting title if he was the Stark who broke the pact with the Others. 

"For thirteen years the Night's King and his "corpse queen" ruled together, before King of Winter, Brandon the Breaker, (in alliance, it is said, with the King-Beyond-the-Wall, Joramun) brought them down. Thereafter, he obliterated the Night's King's very name from memory."

From then on the Nights Watch and the Wall existed for only one purpose. To absolutely oppose the Others, with no pacts, no sacrifices and no dealings with the Others except under hostile circumstances. 

What I think happened is that when the Stark in Winterfell overthrew his brother, he took possession of his sword. The blade of Dragonsteel (whatever that is). He then proceeded to man the Wall with men of the realm eager to protect the people in the most noble calling ever, the Nights Watch (seriously, back then it was allegedly really something). And he placed the sword in the possession of the Lord Commander. This may have became a tradition of Old that each Lord Commander wield the blade when he came into office. 

Who knows, the Stark in Winterfell Brandon the breaker himself may have even taken the Black as the Lord Commander and left a sibling or son in charge at Winterfell, or placed a sibling or son at the Wall as the Lord Commander. 

This brings me up to my interpretation of the Prologue and why I think the Others thought they had happened across this eras leader of the Nights Watch and approached him with superior numbers and heavy caution paying major attention to his weapon. 

There is a way we can take this further with speculation. 

If we recall the descriptions of Waymar and Jon and how we all went a little excitable the first time we noticed it in the books, or the first time we read it in a theory? We all did. 

Slender, graceful, grey eyed, that's how it goes isn't it? Curious for GRRM to give Waymar those features and have Jon be exactly the same. 

What if the Last Hero had those features, or, what if his brother who rode on the Wall and put him down had those features and the Others remember. 

What if the Others expect the leader of their ancient foe to look a certain way? Grey eyed, graceful and slender.

Infact, what if they are even expecting him to return one day to lead the Nights Watch with a blade such as the one they were devastated by thousands of years ago and for all the Others know has been passed from Commander to Commander in tradition?. 

Isn't it strange then that Jon became Lord Commander of the Nights Watch and also came into possession of a sword, a sword that I believe is only a matter time before it is proven that it will devastate the Others in battle just like the Last Heros blade of Dragonsteel did. 

This is some added crackpot for fun I've thought of. 

For some reason I see Jon wielding a different blade from Longclaw. 

I'll only touch on this very very briefly but I think that Longclaw may possibly find its way into the hands of Jorah Mormont and he will wield it in the Long Night 2.0. 

Remember this quote? Bear (hehe) with me.

AGOT DANY X:

"Ser Jorah Mormont," she said, "first and greatest of my knights, I have no bride gift to give you, but I swear to you, one day you shall have from my hands a longsword like none the world has ever seen, dragon-forged and made of Valyrian steel. And I would ask for your oath as well."

Effectively Jorah may become a member of the Nights Watch, as all who oppose the Others and the darkness rightly are imo, fulfilling his fathers dying wish that he take the Black. 

ASOS SAMWELL II:

"All. The Fist. The wildlings. Dragonglass. This. All." His breathing was very shallow now, his voice a whisper. "Tell my son. Jorah. Tell him, take the black. My wish. Dying wish."

This frees up Jon's hands for another blade perhaps?. What if Jorah gets in Danys good graces again, and a Valyrian steel blade is forged in Drogons flames, but when Jon and Jorah meet, Jon gives Jorah his ancestral family sword while Jon takes a new sword - A Longsword forged from the flames of Drogon!. 

All wild fun speculation from myself at the end here. I've been away from the forum over the holidays and had some thoughts kicking around. 

 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

By the way, I never realised the title would look that long when i typed it haha. I'll take the vote at the end of the year for thread with the biggest title lol 

[The Fattest Leech]

Ok, I'll bite, but just for a minute because I am still sick as a dog.

Just want to put this first part here from the other thread because I feel it may fit in a tad better with this topic:

I still believe that the Others have some sort of "prophecy" to look out for and destroy this new "hero" who will defeat them in the Long Night 2.0. Waymar Royce is described to look very much like Jon, even having some shared blood from generations back, and both are of the Night's Watch.

The fact that the Others reacted to a blade signals the idea to readers that Jon will have some sort of magically delicious sword. But the blood is the first, solid confirmation because it is only after the blood is exposed and steams, do the other Others come in for a kill- possibly only then because they saw Royce was not "the one" and it was safe to get close enough to kill him. That is also probably why the Others send in wights in the first line of attack- wights are expendable and as a battle is observed from a distance, anyone with a "magic" sword would be exposed and then the Others would know who to focus on.

Notice the telling difference between the blood welling. Royce's steams, while Jon's smokes.

• Royce: Then Royce's parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow.
• Jon: Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

Also, there is a another comparison between Royce and Jon:

• Royce: Ser Waymar met him bravely. "Dance with me then." He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night's Watch.
• Jon: Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I have long argued that the Others in the AGOT Prologue set a trap for whom they believed to be a very important person. Possibly even the leader, of their thousands year old foes, The Nights Watch. 

The references to Waymars garb, the commanding way he behaves (well he is the commander), and his very fancy jewel hilted shiny looking sword all draw me to the conclusion that the Others think they may have happened across the leader of the Nights Watch of this era and that he still carries the blade of Dragonsteel that slayed many of their kind thousands of years previous.

I personally believe there is absolutely no shadow of a doubt the Others detest the Nights Watch.
 

Agreed with all of this, but to clarify for myself, I think this is where the "prophecy" the Others may have comes in to play. As George has built in to the story, "a villain is the hero of the other side." To clarify, I think the Others are THE real and true threat to the humans of Westeros, and maybe beyond, I am just referring to a thought process for the Others themselves.

Quote

But, the Others never always had this hatred, at one stage in the past after the War for the Dawn, the Others had a working agreement with the Nights Watch. 

An agreement that involved sacrifice, a pale blue eyed Sorceress, and the Nights King. 

Not sure I am familiar with a working agreement between the Others and the NW. Can you link me to a convo about this, because I seem to have missed it. I am assuming you are referring to how the 13th LC married the "Night's Queen"? George has described the NK as legendary, like a myth. This could change with a Bran flashback, or maybe a Jon coma dream???, but I don't think it is concrete enough to use any of the NK tale verbatim... yet. Of course, it is fun to speculate and try to find those connections. Ask me how I know this???

I am super cautious to take anything we know about events such as the Long Night, Night's King and Queen, etc as truth since the records were destroyed, and much is told by Old Nan and she is known to exaggerate just to scare Bran. And with maesters, it is known that maesters want to suppress magic, which includes northern tales and heroics, and they don't even think the Other and CotF exist. I think a lot of what we get, especially about anything eeeevillll is served with a heaping does of hyperbole and we will see more of the truth in it as the story starts in TWOW (well, it has already started happening a little).

 

Quote

This brings me up to my interpretation of the Prologue and why I think the Others thought they had happened across this eras leader of the Nights Watch and approached him with superior numbers and heavy caution paying major attention to his weapon. 

~snipped a little~

Infact, what if they are even expecting him to return one day to lead the Nights Watch with a blade such as the one they were devastated by thousands of years ago and for all the Others know has been passed from Commander to Commander in tradition?. 

Isn't it strange then that Jon became Lord Commander of the Nights Watch and also came into possession of a sword, a sword that I believe is only a matter time before it is proven that it will devastate the Others in battle just like the Last Heros blade of Dragonsteel did.

This just adds to my thought that what the Others are looking for is someone who fits a physical description, has the right smoking blood, and is wielding dragonsteel (whatever that is)-  which I theorize is Jon and his sword, no matter whether it is Valyrian steel, meteor/Dawn, Oathkeeper/Ice, etc. Jon will wake with his Targaryen bloodline known to him, so he will be a dragon wielding "steel", just as Dany "forged" her own dragonsteel sword as Drogon. It is more figurative, like when Jon says the wall is a sword to the east... as in where the sun gives us dawn

Quote

For some reason I see Jon wielding a different blade from Longclaw. 

I'll only touch on this very very briefly but I think that Longclaw may possibly find its way into the hands of Jorah Mormont and he will wield it in the Long Night 2.0.

Effectively Jorah may become a member of the Nights Watch, as all who oppose the Others and the darkness rightly are imo, fulfilling his fathers dying wish that he take the Black. 

ASOS SAMWELL II:

"All. The Fist. The wildlings. Dragonglass. This. All." His breathing was very shallow now, his voice a whisper. "Tell my son. Jorah. Tell him, take the black. My wish. Dying wish."

This frees up Jon's hands for another blade perhaps?. What if Jorah gets in Danys good graces again, and a Valyrian steel blade is forged in Drogons flames, but when Jon and Jorah meet, Jon gives Jorah his ancestral family sword while Jon takes a new sword - A Longsword forged from the flames of Drogon!.

I do think Jon will end up with another sword that fits him. As of right now, Longclaw is classified as a bastard sword and has garnets in it, which are described in-world as the bastard stone to rubies... and right now Jon is just a bastard but we know Jon has a connection to rubies coming up!

I do like the idea of Jorah getting Longclaw, because yes, I do remember that quote as well That would be a nicely done, emotional moment that closes out that mini-plot.

I tend to think that the only dragonflame-on-steel we will see is if the Iron Throne gets melted down.

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

Wow, I've never really analyzed the prologue before but now I think you are definitely right. I always viewed it as the patrol happening upon the Others, but it is certainly more ambush-like with the benefit of how you lay things out. The Others were anticipating it. They seem very clever, and to be trying many tactics; ambush, assasination, (sort of) herding the wildlings headlong into the wall. But none have been very successful so far.

One thing I wonder though is why they would be trying to kill the commander if they are/have been expecting him to return? Wouldn't killing the Lord Commander just possibly initiate events leading to the return of the one they are waiting for? Whom they must fear/hate because of what he can do to them. Also, other starks have been Lord Commander since the Nights king, so couldn't they have been the one/had the look? I wonder why the Others would start this activity when they do. Did they know something was coming?

I like the idea of Jon getting a different sword. Dawn always appeals to me but the logistics usually cut my expectations short. I am too hazy on Arthurian lore to make a statement, but I think there are some distinctions between Excalibur the sword he pulled from the stone to prove his lineage and Excalibur the sword he receives from the Lady in the Lake. And I know he grew up not really knowing who he was. So maybe if Longclaw is a lady o the lake type parallel then Jon does return it to the lake (lake being Mormont) and he retrieves Dark Sister proving his lineage? Pure speculation, and it doesn't especially work because I don't think we have reason to believe Dark Sister is more than a few hundred years old or that Jon is clearly inspired by Arthur. I guess Widows Wail or Oathkeeper could also prove his lineage.

I agree:

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I tend to think that the only dragonflame-on-steel we will see is if the Iron Throne gets melted down.

If I keep muddling through other fantasy parallels, however, there could be some Ice/Narsil oathkeeper+ww=anduril sort of forging possibly with a dragons help.

[Macgregor of the North]

21 minutes ago, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

Wow, I've never really analyzed the prologue before but now I think you are definitely right. I always viewed it as the patrol happening upon the Others, but it is certainly more ambush-like with the benefit of how you lay things out. 

Thanks for commenting mate, I wish I could comment more on this thread at the moment, I have to still get back to @The Fattest Leech with her comments.

Quick comment though. If you reread the Prologue with a view to how Will and Gared feel on that ninth day. Two veterans of rangings but they are scared shitless. 

They are being watched and they know it. Although Waymar has no idea. When it turns night time it all gets worse. 

The Others were shadowing them with special interest in Royce, who the Others rightfully believe is a leading commander. 

The rest is all awesome when it gets to the duel, in regards to the sword, how the blood may play into it etc etc. 

Even after all these years the Prologue still brings out discussions. I love that shit. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

Wow, I've never really analyzed the prologue before but now I think you are definitely right.

I know, right? I'm sick as a dog right now but still can't take time away like I should!

1 hour ago, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

If I keep muddling through other fantasy parallels, however, there could be some Ice/Narsil oathkeeper+ww=anduril sort of forging possibly with a dragons help.

Maybe an Ice re-forging??? I will admit that there are so many options for the swords in the end.

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

27 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I know, right? I'm sick as a dog right now but still can't take time away like I should!

Maybe an Ice re-forging??? I will admit that there are so many options for the swords in the end.

I almost edited my post to say re-forging. That's exactly what I meant. Feel better!

[Macgregor of the North]

Ok @The Fattest Leech from the top. 

We are in great glorious agreement on the Others being smart enough to know of, or expect the return of, or have a prophecy for a certain individual and have specifics on that figure such as his appearance, what weapon he may carry, and if he is the leader of their old foes the Nights Watch. We may even speculate further that they know he will have certain blood flowing through his veins like Stark blood.

As in the other thread though I disagree that the Other drawing blood from Waymar and seeing it steaming on the ground was what prompted them all to go in for the kill.

After Waymar takes the wound under his arm only the main Other mocks him, but the back up Others stay still and make no sound or show no movement at all. 

It isn't until the sword is shattered that the back up Others make their move, butchering Royce alongside the main Other. 

I have been lightly duelling with LmL on his thread about this and while we can agree the blood may have importance in the fight scenes, I still think the text pretty clearly states it's the sword that primarily  guides the actions of the Others from start to finish. 

On the working agreement thing. Yep, guilty, I have taken the story of Old Nan and the maesters as gospel what can I say, I do believe wholeheartedly that the Lord Commander/leader of the early Nights Watch was sacrificing to the Others and I think Craster was partly a way to show us this kind of thing on page to show us how it was done, although of course Craster had plenty other massive parts in the story.

I see where your at with the whole figurative Dragonsteel thing, if that's the case for Jon and Dany that's all good and I like the way you explain it, good take on it,  but in regards to our Last Hero, if he was wielding his own "Dragonsteel" what do you think that can be explained as, figuratively speaking?. 

Hey, I never really looked the angle of the garnets being the bastard version of rubies and them fitting Jon the bastard quite well with his bastard sword. Nice. 

Yeah Jorah getting Longclaw would be awesome.

Ooh you took it to the Iron throne for the swords. it seems the fairly obvious thing to do doesnt it? Well if Drogon or one of the other Dragons gave it a torching i suppose it's had a double blast then hasn't it with Balerion already giving it some. 

I wonder if one of these ancient Valyrian scrolls that are kicking around the story perhaps contain the spells for forging anew. 

We know Tobho knew the spells to reforge an old blade and hopefully Gendry knows too but a new forging would be quite something. Not sure if it will happen though.

If were honest though, I believe that any steel forged in Dragonflames, spells or no, will kill an Other. 

 

[Yaya]

interesting conversations going on, great ideas Macgregor of the North,

... this is putting me in the thought train that Curled Finger had on a thread back - the "levels" of dead ... like black blood and stuff. 
could be that the Night King was a "dead" person?

 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Mad thoughts, in no particular order:

I'm still fond of the theory that we haven't actually seen the true Others yet. We've seen their peasant levies - the wights - and their knights - the "white walkers" - but not their lords, or kings... or queen. The talk of ice spiders big as hounds, and riding on ice spiders is also suggestive - this would be two different types of ice spider, one much larger and perhaps rarer than the other...

Anyway, all this talk of spiders and the CotF's hive-mind makes me think of ants and other similar insects. What if the Others are a sort of insect? I don't mean physically, but... they can raise the dead for drones, and they can use some other ice magic to make soldiers. (I still recall some comment of GRRM's that the obsidian blade "breaks the spell holding [Puddles] together" or something.) But anyway, drones, soldiers: that leaves the Queen...

What if there's a big giant Other Queen lying up at the Heart of Winter? The true power, the Great Other, the terrible pale sorceress who took the 13th commander's seed and soul...

I note also that Craster's wives talk about "the sons" coming for their "brother" - "sons" implies parents, and we all thought the parents were Craster and one of his wives, but what if they're talking about something else?

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I don't see the difference between steaming blood and smoking blood.

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What if the fight between the Other and Waymar is an initiation?

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Let's say the original Night's Watch - the proto-Watch - was the Last Hero and his dozen companions, i.e. 13 men. If 13 men head north, and twelve of them die, then the 13th man is by definition the 13th man to be in charge of the expedition. The 13th Lord Commander. Supposition: the Last Hero is the Night's King.

"A warrior who knew no fear." I propose that he knew fear very well. If you're the last man standing against an overwhelming foe, and we know you succeed, either (a) you're a bona-fide mega-legend superhero champion, or (b) the story is bullshit. (This has cropped up in the show, but I'll put it in a separate post in case the mods get upset.)

How can one man defeat the evil Others? Supposition: he can't, and didn't. Instead, he surrendered to them.

The terms of his surrender are clear: he gets to be king, and an Other gets to be his queen. He has nominal dominion over the land, but must pay tribute to the Others in the form of human babies.

Wild supposition: the Others, a bit like elves and vampires, need to be invited in. Without that marriage pact, the Great Queen Other (who is not physically large, or perhaps does not even have a consistent physical shape - rather, she is just a powerful spirit, the embodiment of cold and death, able to manifest itself physically as needed) could not actually take over the world, and so it was the last "hero" (and remember GRRM is a 60's hippie who's skeptical of the idea of a hero, check out one of his first published stories) who, fearing death, agreed to marry her, gaining himself eternal life, and only at the cost of the entire world.

(Even wilder supposition: the Long Night was the reign of the Night's King.)

Eventually, men teamed up to defeat him, probably the good old-fashioned way: with armies and war. (Also possibly with a magic sword, but if Martin is doing some kind of deconstructionist fantasy he might want to ultimately show the magic sword thing as being hollow.) His name and story was erased from history, because that's what happens to traitors.

Perhaps the Night's King ruled from Winterfell, rather than from the Wall - after all, if the Others haven't been seen since the War for the Dawn, which the Wall postdates, then how could someone at the Nightfort be sacrificing to them?

Wild supposition: perhaps the last hero's surrender precipitated the war - perhaps his journey north wasn't to end the war because it hadn't started, perhaps he wanded onto Other land and sold out his own people in exchange for his life. Perhaps, therefore, he was a Stark.

I realise there's a lot of holes here - how was the Wall built, and when? being the biggest one - but I do certainly like the main suppositions, which I shall repeat here for clarity:

The Night's King is the Last Hero. He didn't defeat the Others; he surrendered to them. He was erased from history because that's what happens to traitors.

And, possibly, he married the Other Queen, thus damning the realm to save himself from death. And he maybe was a Stark.

This is a pretty sweet idea may I say, I like this one. Thanks guys!

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Just now, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

If you're the last man standing against an overwhelming foe, and we know you succeed, either (a) you're a bona-fide mega-legend superhero champion, or (b) the story is bullshit. (This has cropped up in the show, but I'll put it in a separate post in case the mods get upset.)

I'm talking of course about (show spoilers)

Spoiler

the Tower of Joy scene, where Ned is plainly about to get fucked by Arthur Dayne until Howland Reed stabs him in the back.

The legend does not match the grubby reality; the honourable hero is actually a shameful cheating murderer, at least by chivalry's standards.

[The Fattest Leech]

@Illyrio Mo'Parties the difference between steaming and smoking is steam comes from a heated liquid that condenses when it touches cooler air... and no smoke without fire 

Two different elements from different sources. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@Illyrio Mo'Parties the difference between steaming and smoking is steam comes from a heated liquid that condenses when it touches cooler air... and no smoke without fire 

Two different elements from different sources. 

Allow me to clarify: I do know the difference between steam and smoke, but neither Jon's nor Waymar's blood is actually steaming or smoking, is it? It's just heat from their bodies condensing the cold air... or something. Now that I think about it I don't know the exact mechanism, but it's just like your breath in the cold, innit? It's hot inside your body, but that's not actually steam or smoke coming out your face, is it?

[The Fattest Leech]

7 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Allow me to clarify: I do know the difference between steam and smoke, but neither Jon's nor Waymar's blood is actually steaming or smoking, is it? It's just heat from their bodies condensing the cold air... or something. Now that I think about it I don't know the exact mechanism, but it's just like your breath in the cold, innit? It's hot inside your body, but that's not actually steam or smoke coming out your face, is it?

In real life, our breath in cold air would be steam (or little vapor clouds). Waymar is one of us regular, boring meatbags, so he steams. That is what the Others notice and what makes them realize that Waymar ain't the one. 

In Magic life, the fact that Jon's blood is described by George (who is uber particular about adjectives) as smoking, which also coincides with a certain prophecy that has to do with smoke, probably means something. 

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

5 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

In real life, our breath in cold air would be steam. Waymar is one of us regular, boring meatbags, so he steams. That is what the Others notice and what makes them realize that Waymar ain't the one. 

In Magic life, the fact that Jon's blood is described by George (who is uber particular about adjectives) as smoking, which also coincides with a certain prophecy that has to do with smoke, probably means something. 

It's condensed air. Like fog or a cloud. Neither steam nor smoke.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

In real life, our breath in cold air would be steam. Waymar is one of us regular, boring meatbags, so he steams.

Thanks for clearing that up.

4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

In Magic life, the fact that Jon's blood is described by George (who is uber particular about adjectives) as smoking, which also coincides with a certain prophecy that has to do with smoke, probably means something.

Oh I don't doubt that GRRM is suggesting the ol' salt and smoke there, but nevertheless I don't think Jon's blood is actually smoking. It's just steam, a red herring: the only instance of magic blood in the series to date is Beric, and he's been raised from the dead with fire magic.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

It's condensed air. Like fog or a cloud. Neither steam nor smoke.

Yeah, that is what I clarified. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Thanks for clearing that up.

Oh I don't doubt that GRRM is suggesting the ol' salt and smoke there, but nevertheless I don't think Jon's blood is actually smoking. It's just steam, a red herring: the only instance of magic blood in the series to date is Beric, and he's been raised from the dead with fire magic.

Ok, then I guess you are saying that George is using steam and smoke interchangeably? 

[The Fattest Leech]

3 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Thanks for clearing that up.

Oh I don't doubt that GRRM is suggesting the ol' salt and smoke there, but nevertheless I don't think Jon's blood is actually smoking. It's just steam, a red herring: the only instance of magic blood in the series to date is Beric, and he's been raised from the dead with fire magic.

I guess I could go for a red herring, but at a cliffhanger like this, that would seem cheapish and that doesn't seem to be George's thing. I would think in a case like this a general theme would be better, not a whole word switch (that has to do with a prophecy). 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Ok, then I guess you are saying that George is using steam and smoke interchangeably? 

In this instance, "smoking" is (1) a poetic image describing the condensed air from Jon's wounds, and (2) a red herring re: Azor Ahai.