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Star Wars Rebels: How Does the Force Really Work? (spoilers for everything Star Wars)

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19 minutes ago, Jon AS said:

The Clone Wars (and subsequently Rebels) actually treats the Force as pretty versatile and multifaceted magic rather than just the vague mysticism you get in most of the films. There's a story arc where Obi Wan, Anakin and Ahsoka travel to a place where time runs at a different pace and where they interact with entities that seem to be incarnations of the different aspects of the Force. IIRC Ahsoka also dies and is resurrected there. Not a great arc but totally canon.

 

Then there's the Night Sisters who use some kind of ritualistic magic and take the "Force Ghost" concept a bit further as they can apparently possess living beings. They're also involved in Maul's return arc.

TWC and Rebels' treatment of the Force is pretty much in line with a lot of the old EU depictions, which I think is a positive element. It's probably not surprising considering that Filoni has shown a clear interest in weaving EU elements into his work. I'm not too optimistic, but I hope he has another shot at bringing Revan into the shows after Lucas vetoed the first attempt.

Rebels has enough KotoR references/links (plus the cross-guard saber like Kylo Ren's) that I could plausibly imagine bringing in more KotoR elements in the new series set post RotJ.

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Yes this is also no longer canon

I think the jury is still out on the canon status of KotOR and The Old Republic, because it's still ongoing under the new story group and they now have a hand in the future direction of the MMORPG, not to mention the Hammerhead ships showing up in Rebels and Rogue One. I don't see any reason why the whole Old Republic era can't be made canon, as I would be pretty surprised if Disney decide to set a movie or TV show there to cause continuity issues.

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Posted (edited)

Since the force is so versatile I think there need to be some changes in SW canon.  Who needs actual bandages, just use the force?  

Are really strong force sensitives more like star fish than people?  If they get into a fight with someone using the wonderful circular saw version of the light saber (a link was provided in the last thread) and they get sliced into multiple small pieces shouldn't they be able to come back as their own army when their hatred and "the Force" allows them to reconstitute their body multiple times from the various pieces that are left over.  Heck their consciousness can be spread over all those different bodies via telepathy.  Wouldn't that just make the force even cooler if it pulled off that bit of fanwanking?

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison

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4 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I think the jury is still out on the canon status of KotOR and The Old Republic, because it's still ongoing under the new story group and they now have a hand in the future direction of the MMORPG, not to mention the Hammerhead ships showing up in Rebels and Rogue One. I don't see any reason why the whole Old Republic era can't be made canon, as I would be pretty surprised if Disney decide to set a movie or TV show there to cause continuity issues.

I think there was a quote on this from Hidalgo or one of the others from the Story Group a while back, which essentially said that since they don't currently plan to focus on that era in their upcoming productions it's not likely to change for the moment.

Some points in the Old Republic era's favour are that the Story Group have been involved in the recent TOR expansions (and credit on some of them) and the fact that Filoni has already borrowed elements from the era. As you say, it's also the only "live" property from the old EU, and the line from Disney/Lucasfilm was that all new Star Wars material would be fully canon. 

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4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Since the force is so versatile I think there need to be some changes in SW canon.  Who needs actual bandages, just use the force?  

Are really strong force sensitives more like star fish than people?  If they get into a fight with someone using the wonderful circular saw version of the light saber (a link was provided in the last thread) and they get sliced into multiple small pieces shouldn't they be able to come back as their own army when their hatred and "the Force" allows them to reconstitute their body multiple times from the various pieces that are left over.  Heck their consciousness can be spread over all those different bodies via telepathy.  Wouldn't that just make the force even cooler if it pulled off that bit of fanwanking?

Star Wars is a fictional universe, so it only has to be internally consistent. Whether the things in it seem realistic from an external PoV aren't really the issue.

Most of the things you've listed above have been tried at various times, either in the canon or now non-canon EU, including spreading consciousness across different bodies. 

Most life-prolonging abilities are seen as being a corruption of the Force, a use of the Dark Side, at least from the Jedi point of view. But Force Sensitives being able to heal more quickly is fairly established. Is there so much difference between being able to reconstitute your body and mind, and being able to manifest yourself and your consciousness as a ghost anywhere in the universe?

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5 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

Star Wars is a fictional universe, so it only has to be internally consistent. Whether the things in it seem realistic from an external PoV aren't really the issue.

Most of the things you've listed above have been tried at various times, either in the canon or now non-canon EU, including spreading consciousness across different bodies. 

Most life-prolonging abilities are seen as being a corruption of the Force, a use of the Dark Side, at least from the Jedi point of view. But Force Sensitives being able to heal more quickly is fairly established. Is there so much difference between being able to reconstitute your body and mind, and being able to manifest yourself and your consciousness as a ghost anywhere in the universe?

Yeah, I think their is.  Let's put it this way.  I'd have an easier time believing Maul died and his spirit claimed the body of another person of his species than that his body survived being bisected.  "The Soul" exists in the Stat Wars universe.  The ability to keep a body alive after incredibly massive trauma just... seems silly.  Is the body paramount in this Universe or is the spirit?  Why hold onto the body so hard if the Spirit is just as real?

Do you see what I'm driving at?

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8 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Yeah, I think their is.  Let's put it this way.  I'd have an easier time believing Maul died and his spirit claimed the body of another person of his species than that his body survived being bisected.  "The Soul" exists in the Stat Wars universe.  The ability to keep a body alive after incredibly massive trauma just... seems silly.  Is the body paramount in this Universe or is the spirit?  Why hold onto the body so hard if the Spirit is just as real?

Do you see what I'm driving at?

I see what you're driving at - I think the canon explanation is that the ability to live on as a Force ghost comes from accepting death and becoming one with the Force. It's a matter of transcendence and harmony. Living on as the spirit is about surrendering all physical possessions and attachments  - it's the logical extension of the Jedi philosophy. 

The Sith are also able to use the Force to live on, or extend their lives, but the way they do it is supposed to be counter to the order of the universe. It is unnatural and disrupts the balance. They can harness the Force to live on, but it causes them great pain and suffering to do so; their suffering and pain cause them to become increasingly bitter and twisted, making it harder for them to ever make peace with the world. Their anger consumes them. So the only way they can then live on is through feeding more and more on their anger and resentment, and twisting the Force to keep them alive. It becomes like an addiction, which is why Yoda says that once you start down that path there is no return.

So you're absolutely right, in that sense. Why would you hold on to the body following massive trauma - whether inflicted through events or age - when you can accept your death and become one with the Force. That's exactly what Obi-Wan and Yoda argue, and why Obi-Wan allows Vader to kill him. 

Most of the Sith, or Dark Siders, Maul included, are driven by physical concerns. Maul wants revenge on Obi-Wan and then Sidious, so he's unwilling to allow himself to die. 

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4 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

I see what you're driving at - I think the canon explanation is that the ability to live on as a Force ghost comes from accepting death and becoming one with the Force. It's a matter of transcendence and harmony. Living on as the spirit is about surrendering all physical possessions and attachments  - it's the logical extension of the Jedi philosophy. 

The Sith are also able to use the Force to live on, or extend their lives, but the way they do it is supposed to be counter to the order of the universe. It is unnatural and disrupts the balance. They can harness the Force to live on, but it causes them great pain and suffering to do so; their suffering and pain cause them to become increasingly bitter and twisted, making it harder for them to ever make peace with the world. Their anger consumes them. So the only way they can then live on is through feeding more and more on their anger and resentment, and twisting the Force to keep them alive. It becomes like an addiction, which is why Yoda says that once you start down that path there is no return.

So you're absolutely right, in that sense. Why would you hold on to the body following massive trauma - whether inflicted through events or age - when you can accept your death and become one with the Force. That's exactly what Obi-Wan and Yoda argue, and why Obi-Wan allows Vader to kill him. 

Most of the Sith, or Dark Siders, Maul included, are driven by physical concerns. Maul wants revenge on Obi-Wan and then Sidious, so he's unwilling to allow himself to die. 

Actually that does make more sense.  Perhaps the Sith don't buy into the dualist position and are pure materialists.

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That almost sounds like a break thru!  Quick! The South never had a right to secede because Force reasons held the Union together...

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Posted (edited)

57 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

That almost sounds like a break thru!  Quick! The South never had a right to secede because Force reasons held the Union together...

:sigh:

Philisophicly it makes sense for pure materialists to use "magic" to extend life in extremis while dualists would allow themselves to pass despite having "magic" that could extend life.  It explains why Qui Gon died from a much less traumatic injury while Maul survived.  That is a logical inconsistency that bothered me.

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison

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13 hours ago, karaddin said:

Darth Sion in KotoR2 (which predates his resurrection in TCW) had virtually been disintegrated (small bits, much larger than atoms but not remotely whole) and was holding himself together with his hate.

I find Sion easier to accept because the damage to his body was gradual; he learned to use the Force to compensate for increasingly severe wounds over time. (And he didn't really survive, either; his body ended up more like a zombie puppet, not a functioning organism.) That's a different matter from suddenly finding yourself chopped in half and tumbling down a seemingly bottomless pit. Maul's dominant emotion at the time should have been shock, not hate (that would come later), and his body would be failing in multiple ways simultaneously.

13 hours ago, karaddin said:

And it's a rather unusual bridge too far given wth maul you can at least handwave alien biology helping.

I'm happy to accept Maul having a different arrangement of internal organs than humans, but it doesn't seem plausible that his entire lower torso is essentially nothing but a giant appendix and everything vital was above the cut.

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Last night? A full hour? And who else wasn't too impressed...?

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Last night? A full hour? And who else wasn't too impressed...?

:agree:

It was pretty pedestrian I thought. Yeah, it had some Saw, and it had a few references for viewers that no-one in the show recognized, but otherwise, it was pretty meh. Nothing of consequence happened, no real character development. It felt just like a guest star appearing on a live action show, more for the references than the story.

They could probably have told the same story in one episode quite comfortably, and in a strong Season 3 so far, this was one of the most mediocre episodes, I'd say. It wasn't bad, it just wasn't particularly good either. 

ETA: The only thing I really enjoyed from that episode was Sabine unloading on the Stormtroopers. 

Edited by ab aeterno

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18 hours ago, felice said:

 

I'm happy to accept Maul having a different arrangement of internal organs than humans, but it doesn't seem plausible that his entire lower torso is essentially nothing but a giant appendix and everything vital was above the cut.

Maybe he just has really long legs in comparison to his torso and wears baggy trousers - so he only realy lost his legs :)

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I enjoyed the episodes quite a bit. They had plenty of action, focused on themes that were more adult and had a whole lot to offer for fan service. The more I see of Saw (Did I just say see saw?), the more I dislike him though. 

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1 minute ago, Howdyphillip said:

I enjoyed the episodes quite a bit. They had plenty of action, focused on themes that were more adult and had a whole lot to offer for fan service. The more I see of Saw (Did I just say see saw?), the more I dislike him though. 

While I agree with what your saying, it's the Saw factor that simply took me out of things.  I appreciate that it was Forrest Whittaker doing the voice, I appreciate they were trying to show some of the cracks that led him to breaking from the main rebellion, but the timeline just didn't synch for me.  That, and the attitude towards the Geonotian...that felt very forced.

But yes, action, fan service, adult themes amongst the kid friendly tones, it was all there, but the episode was a miss overall by essentially forcing Saw into the mix...

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Loved the Anakin references. "Sand, it gets everywhere" :lol:

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Why did they go to investigate what happened on Geonosis without anyone who spoke Geonosian on the team? It's not like they don't have a protocol droid available. Even if none of the Geonosians had survived, they might have left records.

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19 minutes ago, felice said:

Why did they go to investigate what happened on Geonosis without anyone who spoke Geonosian on the team? It's not like they don't have a protocol droid available. Even if none of the Geonosians had survived, they might have left records.

Saw's team went to investigate a power source, which they suspected belonged to the Empire, not Geonosians. Hera's team went to rescue Saw's team. But, I agree, they need a protocol droid in their team.

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Yeah that episode just didn't click together for me. I think being constrained by it being a kids show is what really held it back, the way it was written *this* needed to be the incident that makes Saw split from the Alliance but that would have been much darker. I guess if he comes back into it, that could still happen later in the season but this didnt need to be a two parter.

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