Some great theories to discuss?

[Bonkers]

There is a relatively small/new YouTube channel I just discovered (I have nothing to do with it, nor do I know these people) that has some excellent vids on some book only stuff....seriously good theories I think.  It is called "The Order of the Greenhand" and I highly recommend it! 

 

They have some theories that I have yet to read about in any detail such as they present.  Some would be great topics to discuss, so check it out!  (Again, I have nothing to do with them but I love what they have achieved with their vids!)

ADD: the playlist "recommended viewing" is the most precise way to watch their vids..they are new, they were not so fluid initially.

[ReleaseTheHound]

Just checked out their first 5 or so videos and all I've gotten from them or him is that he has this wild obsession with disproving R+L=J and explores other jon parentage options. While he says a lot there's barely a shred of evidence and basically no quotes presented in the videos in favour of his ideas. I'm all for looking at X+Y=J theories but he actually goes so far as to say RL has hardly any evidence and is straight up bitter in reacting to confirmations from the show that disprove his theories while maintaining that it's a book theory channel. Like why be so bothered.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

They at least use more text to support their so called theories than PJ, but that isn’t something great since PJ seem to don’t use the books at all. However the majority if not all of their theories are full of plot holes and are overall ridiculous.

For example;

in their theory that the 3 KG Dayne, Whent and Hightower are Mance, Halfhand and Tormund they forget that for example Tormund has children older than 17 years old. How the White Bull could have children Beyond the Wall before him becoming Tormund? Also somehow Gerold Hightower had a relationship with Maege Mormont and was the father of her daughters, two of them were older than 20 years old, and somehow Maege helped Gerold to help Rhaegar in and out of the North and that was the reason why Jeor was sent to the Wall, in order to pay for his sister’s crime.

ALSO, ALSO WTF THEY DID TO VAL?  How on GRRTH Val is Allyria, Ned’s daughter and Jon’s twin?

Jon is Ned's only trueborn son and Cat's children are bastards because Ned married Jon's mother Ashara at White Harbor and the Tully brothers knew it. So when Hoster forced Ned to marry Cat, Blackfish abandoned his family to serve the Arryns.

Rhaegar and Lyanna were hiding in Winterfell and their son Aegon, YG, was born there.

The KG(HalfhandWhent, TormundHightower AND ManceDayne) are in league with  Wyman Manderly, Stannis, Bloodraven who is prisoner, Mel who is really Shiera, Jeor Mormont,  Maege Mormont,  Leyton Hightower, Illyrio Mopatis( who glamour himself as Salladhor Saan), Varys and Ned against the CotF and the Faceless Men.

[Vaith]

Yes, as others have said, they seem to have a quite strange anti-R+L agenda.

And look, I'm not going to say that alternate theories have no merit. But honestly, it's really futile at this point. I definitely dislike a lot of the things the show does and think a lot of things will happen quite differently in the books, but Benioff and Weiss got to make the show because they knew of Jon's true parentage. Things like Meera Dayne, Aegon VI Snow, and Daenerys Stark are really a reach. I think a lot of people want to find the "next" R+L, that is a parentage theory that explains everything and is oh-so awesome, but the fact is that that isn't possible because, well, only Jon has a very important secret parentage, and in a storytelling and thematic level, it really works.

And I'm sorry, I know this is contentious among people who like Jon, but seeing that their most recent video is called "Why Catelyn Sucks" is really off-putting.

Personally, my favourite theories include BR+SS=M and other Melisandre theories, theories about Quaithe, northern and eastern magic theories (as in, what happened during the long night, how much power do the old gods and R'hllor have, are they both "true" and complimentary to each other, etc) as well as some Drowned God theories, theories about Lightbringer, the Others, the dragons and the "song of ice and fire". I'm seeing a pattern here... the magical aspects of the theories that I'll feel we'll learn a lot more about in the upcoming novels and see just how fundamentally magical ASOIAF actually is.

For the more political aspects of the series, I tend to like predictions for what will happen rather than theories like the "Grand Reach Conspiracy" and "Grand Vale Conspiracy" and the like that ties up a lot of political ongoings in a neat little bow. I like to speculate on Aegon's supporters and the queens' trials on the like, but I tend to like them less simply because I don't want to get attached to one speculation and be disappointed in the future.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, Vaith said:

And I'm sorry, I know this is contentious among people who like Jon, but seeing that their most recent video is called "Why Catelyn Sucks" is really off-putting.

I am one of those who loath Cat and yet I find their reasons ridiculous. 

[Vaith]

12 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I am one of those who loath Cat and yet I find their reasons ridiculous. 

I mean, reasonable debate is fine, but I was four minutes into that video and the first point made was that Catelyn is apparently incestuously aroused by Lysa and Edmure because her mind wanders to non-sexual things during sex.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

10 minutes ago, Vaith said:

I mean, reasonable debate is fine, but I was four minutes into that video and the first point made was that Catelyn is apparently incestuously aroused by Lysa and Edmure because her mind wanders to non-sexual things during sex.

You are right, there are reasons to hate Cat in my mind but their reasons are not some of them. 

[Curled Finger]

I'm an avid Youtube listener.   Radio Westeros, Secrets of the Citadel, Smokescreen, Tony Teflon, History of Westeros, The Last Harpy, Vassals of the Kingsgrave, Red Team Review, Astronomy of Ice and Fire, Ideas of Ice and Fire, Preston Jacobs, An American Thinks, Pete Peppers, Alt Shift X, Talking Thrones, Rawrist are just a few I listen to.  I came across Order of the Greenhand a couple of weeks ago at most.   It didn't take 2 full episodes to decide I wasn't interested because they just appear to have their own agenda and there are too many entertaining and factually book based shows to listen to.  I cut my youtube teeth on History of Westeros and though I'm really disappointed with the direction they've taken for non paying supporters they did set the standard for what I'm willing to invest time in.   

If you want really good stuff listen to Radio Westeros or Secrets of the Citadel.  Smokescreen is my favorite "fun" theory show to listen to these days. The host is smart and loves the show and books.  Radio Westeros will give you tons of alternate theory to mull over and it is the very best show out there.   Secrets of the Citadel is relatively new, but she too loves the books and give some really excellent book based history.   If you want fun and deep alternate theory you can't go wrong with Preston Jacobs or LmL.   You can do much better than Order of the Greenhand, my friend.   

[Bonkers]

I agree that their theories are wildly different to what I have heard others say (I also follow most of those channels you mentioned).  However, I find that you need to listen to all their reasonings before you jump to conclusions about what they say. 

For example, the whole Tormund being Gerold Hightower HAS merit when you look at several aspects of Tomunds life.  As mentioned up top, he has children older than 20, yes, perhaps because (as is well known) The White Bull Gerold Hightower had a secret lover while in the Kingsguard (Maege Moremont?).  They easily could have had children before the rebellion.  She has daughters and never discloses the father - nor do they take his family name.  He has their son's - perhaps they agreed to split the children for the purposes mentioned in the vid theory. 

Tormund has moments of VERY articulate speech, only to quickly add a stupid comment about his member and say HAR (which no other wildling talks like either lol...).  Also, commenting about a Maesters GOOSE quill and black ink...odd that a wildling should know what type of quill or that of a maester's doings at all.

Also, his gold rune bands on his arms are curious.  Gold is not a northern metal and could not have easily been stolen from raiding in the north.  It is a southron metal.  However, it has obviously a perfect fit for his monstrous muscly arms, and also has the First men runes on it....possibly it could have been reforged from existing gold he had and forged specifically for him by his love Maege to protect him beyond the wall, considering the runes. 

He was immediately very protective of Jon - for unknown reasons as Jon was a bastard turncloak who meant nothing to Tormund.  Being freefolk, he is unlikely to act this way just because Mance put him in his raiding group.  Not to mention that the White Bull fits Tormund's physical description. 

Granted, some points made in their theories are made purely just to add to the other reasons they give which may be more compelling than others.... but when making conversation about possibilities in the story, you need to add even the seemingly inconsequential stuff too...Like Jorah married Lynesse Hightower.

Obviously these are just discussions about possible points of interest in the painstakingly precise (down to his combing over and choosing of every word in every sentence) work of GRRM, so I am not looking for people to only agree with me etc... I know any theorizing beyond what is generally accepted truth is going to get backlash lol!

BUT I do like how they draw our attention to fact that GRRM stated not to fully believe Ned's fever dreams about the ToJ, and that it is passing odd that Oswell Whent replys "Far away" when Ned asks them where they were during the rebellion.  He doesn't say "We were here" he says "Far away".  Also, standing out front making their presence obvious sounds more like a place of meeting than how KG would protect an occupant of a tower. 

So yeh, the theories are WAAAAY out there!!  That's why I find them appealing - because the text they refer to does hint the possibility ...

As it is a small channel atm, I found that only after watching all their vids did I start to think....actually shit.  Maybe George really has written that much depth into the story. 

DnD didn't get the show, as mentioned above, because they guessed Jon's mother correctly.  They gave him their answer, he smiled, and after more discussion they got the job.  The George is a tricksy bird...we know he always keeps his cards close to his chest.  

[Jon's Queen Consort]

7 minutes ago, Bonkers said:

perhaps because (as is well known) The White Bull Gerold Hightower had a secret lover while in the Kingsguard (Maege Moremont?).

One it wasn't known, the one with the mistress was the Martell prince and second Maege was at the other end of Westeros and not at court or at least KL like Lewyn’s paramour. There is no proof in the books that Gerold before RR had a mistress let alone more than 5 children half of them Beyond the Wall.

 

[Bonkers]

5 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

One it wasn't known, the one with the mistress was the Martell prince and second Maege was at the other end of Westeros and not at court or at least KL like Lewyn’s paramour. There is no proof in the books that Gerold before RR had a mistress let alone more than 5 children half of them Beyond the Wall.

 

Okay may bad there.  Sorry to put a bee in your bonnet! lol... chill, it is just a discussion.  

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, Bonkers said:

Okay may bad there.  Sorry to put a bee in your bonnet! lol... chill, it is just a discussion.  

Lol what? There is no reason for someone to be annoyed, just pointing to the plot holes and the lack of logical explanation behind the so called theories. Like what I said about GeroldTormund’s case.

[Bonkers]

I guess it was your use of ONE... and TWO.  Sounded condescending that's all.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

17 minutes ago, Bonkers said:

I agree that their theories are wildly different to what I have heard others say (I also follow most of those channels you mentioned).  However, I find that you need to listen to all their reasonings before you jump to conclusions about what they say. 

For example, the whole Tormund being Gerold Hightower

Oh. So, it's this kind of theories.

Thanks for the warning.

[Bonkers]

15 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Oh. So, it's this kind of theories.

Thanks for the warning.

haha

[ThePrinceThatKnewNothing]

I watch a lot of Asoiaf/ GoT videos on YouTube and my only problem is people are starting to make theories that are directed to the books but using evidence from the show to back their points.  It's frustrating to see. Last Harpy regularly does this. Understandably there's no new source material to go off and people have theories which they want to back up but they forget in the process that GRRM and D&D have had to go in their own separate directions to the end now and just becuase somethings happened in the show, it doesn't mean it'll happen in the books. 

[ReleaseTheHound]

I also agree about Last Harpy can't watch him anymore with too many show plots being mixed in with book theories and I love the show they should just stay separate.

im only currently subscribed to alt shift x and PJ. Alt because of the straightforward way he presents and PJ because the absolute insane amount of thought that goes into the videos, the deeper Dorne and lately prepping for winter are so so good and well thought out that I can't understand why he's so hated on here. All I can say is I love the long videos and actual evidence to back up.

(and yes Catelyn does suck and is so selfish but the green hand were reading her lines in such snide and annoying voices it was beyond cringeworthy)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

28 minutes ago, ReleaseTheHound said:

I can't understand why he's so hated on here. 

Because, among others, of his attitude, the fact that he doesn't use text references much, uses personal attacks, disagree with the author himself saying that the author lies and he doesn't give the credits to the people who have created the artworks he uses.

[ReleaseTheHound]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Because, among others, of his attitude, the fact that he doesn't use text references much, uses personal attacks, disagree with the author himself saying that the author lies and he doesn't give the credits to the people who have created the artworks he uses.

I agree that he's extremely sarcastic but otherwise I'm not bothered

i don't know how long since you've seen one of his vids but he rectified that artwork thing what seems like 2 years ago now and he has always used text references? He's just finished like a three hour series of nothing but text going over theons TWOW chapter. Ah well everyone likes what they like I'll definitely be checking out some of the other channels listed above

[Lifestream]

Decided to check their videos, but they hardly had any theories I'm interested in. Mostly Jon Snow parentage and then videos about R+L, kinda boring.

Thought I'd give a try to the most recent one regarding Catelyn, but I couldn't take it seriously after "Catelyn is the worst person that's ever lived".

 

Maybe you have a different Youtube theorist(s) who's less biased and has a variety of theories that don't focus solely on Jon Snow?