Pondering on the purpose of the "Three Sisters" Davos Chapter in Dance

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

It might not be the norm for him to skip journeys but he definitely does it.  Davos himself is arriving at the sisters in his first chapter and recounts the journey, then arrives in WH in the 2nd with no journey, Stannis just shows up at CB when last we saw him at Dragonstone, and Quentyns chapters had tons of flashbacks.  In his first we get their journey to Volantis, in his 2nd we get their journey to Astapor and the siege and storming of the city all as a flashback.

In those cases cutting of the travel time was part of the plot. But I'm actually thinking that we are missing a Davos chapter, covering his time at Eastwatch. There should have been such a chapter at the end of ASoS or early on in ADwD.

Quentyn begins his story in medias res. There is nothing wrong with that, either.

2 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

What I find interesting here is that he seems to have ended the book on cliffhangers for most people.  What is Brienne doing with Jaime, whats gonna happen to Dany, Jon, the battle of Mereen, battle of Ice, etc etc.  If this is the best cliffhanger spot for Davos it must mean that something significant is going to happen in the next chapter that will clear things up for us, and I think that means he must find Rickon under positive circumstances, or find out that Rickon is dead in the next chapter.

I'm more under the impression that George considered the beginning of Davos' quest for Rickon a good point to end his story in ADwD. The cliffhanger is the place where he is going now, Skagos, and Skagos' bad reputation has been introduced in AFfC when Sam passed the island on his way to Braavos.

I'd be very surprised if we just jumped into action there. I think we'll get one chapter covering the journey, possibly beginning with Davos waking up at sea, introducing his companions, talking with Robett and whatever people are with, giving us a some more information about Wex, finally concluding with the arrival on Skagos. They must have some plan where to land there, most likely.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd be very surprised if we just jumped into action there. I think we'll get one chapter covering the journey, possibly beginning with Davos waking up at sea, introducing his companions, talking with Robett and whatever people are with, giving us a some more information about Wex, finally concluding with the arrival on Skagos. They must have some plan where to land there, most likely.

It's a smuggling operation, isn't it? Presumably Manderly doesn't need Davos to smuggle Rickon into White Harbour, since he controls the port: he's the one smugglers are trying to sneak past. (I suppose he could be worried about Frey spies.)

It's more likely that they intend to land Rickon somewhere other than White Harbour - but to me, it's likelier still that Manderly doesn't expect the Skagosi to just hand Rickon over, and that Davos is going to have to sneak him off the island.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

It's a smuggling operation, isn't it? Presumably Manderly doesn't need Davos to smuggle Rickon into White Harbour, since he controls the port: he's the one smugglers are trying to sneak past. (I suppose he could be worried about Frey spies.)

It's more likely that they intend to land Rickon somewhere other than White Harbour - but to me, it's likelier still that Manderly doesn't expect the Skagosi to just hand Rickon over, and that Davos is going to have to sneak him off the island.

Yeah, that seems to be the plan. We don't know any details as of yet but my idea is that the very landing on Skagos might be dangerous (the cannibal thing). The idea that Manderly knows exactly where on Skagos Rickon is also doesn't make any sense. That would mean they have a contact there and then everything would be more easier. Instead they seem to consider the Skagosi as potential enemies which would certainly make for an interesting story. As a Northman, Lord Manderly would certainly know more about Skagos than we do right now, and he might have reason to believe that the Skagosi will at least be quarrelsome and not likely to cooperate just because they are all technically sworn to Winterfell.

[PrettyPig]

3 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

It's a smuggling operation, isn't it? Presumably Manderly doesn't need Davos to smuggle Rickon into White Harbour, since he controls the port: he's the one smugglers are trying to sneak past. (I suppose he could be worried about Frey spies.)

It's more likely that they intend to land Rickon somewhere other than White Harbour - but to me, it's likelier still that Manderly doesn't expect the Skagosi to just hand Rickon over, and that Davos is going to have to sneak him off the island.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Instead they seem to consider the Skagosi as potential enemies which would certainly make for an interesting story. As a Northman, Lord Manderly would certainly know more about Skagos than we do right now, and he might have reason to believe that the Skagosi will at least be quarrelsome and not likely to cooperate just because they are all technically sworn to Winterfell.

There's always the out-there-but-possible notion that Wyman Manderly is playing his own game and doesn't exactly have the best interests of little Rickon at heart.     It's possible that Manderly is using Davos to not only get to Skagos unnoticed, but to deliver Rickon to him (whether at White Harbor or another location) also unnoticed.      Manderly now has his Stark bargaining chip, to what end I don't know but I suspect it's not so Winterfell-friendly as we are being led to believe.     IMO Manderly will turn traitor, rousing speech or no.

Can't recall off the top of my head if anyone besides the handful of Manderlys/loyal men in his employ and Robett Glover even know Davos is alive - most think he has been executed as was the plan.     This conveniently makes Davos himself quite expendable, so if/when Davos returns from a successful smuggling expedition, Wyman can have him killed (really dead this time, not just mostly dead) - then he can do with Rickon as he pleases and Davos' knowledge dies with him.   Wyman will have what he wants and no one will be the wiser...because Davos is a good smuggler and everything took place in secret.

[Lost Melnibonean]

15 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

 

There's always the out-there-but-possible notion that Wyman Manderly is playing his own game and doesn't exactly have the best interests of little Rickon at heart.     It's possible that Manderly is using Davos to not only get to Skagos unnoticed, but to deliver Rickon to him (whether at White Harbor or another location) also unnoticed.      Manderly now has his Stark bargaining chip, to what end I don't know but I suspect it's not so Winterfell-friendly as we are being led to believe.     IMO Manderly will turn traitor, rousing speech or no.

Can't recall off the top of my head if anyone besides the handful of Manderlys/loyal men in his employ and Robett Glover even know Davos is alive - most think he has been executed as was the plan.     This conveniently makes Davos himself quite expendable, so if/when Davos returns from a successful smuggling expedition, Wyman can have him killed (really dead this time, not just mostly dead) - then he can do with Rickon as he pleases and Davos' knowledge dies with him.   Wyman will have what he wants and no one will be the wiser...because Davos is a good smuggler and everything took place in secret.

I don't see loyal Manderly  erasing House Stark, but I do see him advancing the interests of his own house, as all lords in Westeros should. 

[PrettyPig]

3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't see loyal Manderly  erasing House Stark, but I do see him advancing the interests of his own house, as all lords in Westeros should. 

Right - and as I said, I don't know what those interests are, or how he will use Rickon to further his agenda...but this whole Davos Goes To Skagos adventure is indeed to further HIS agenda, not that of House Stark or even the North, necessarily.

That being said, I will not be surprised at all if Manderly kills Rickon or his actions bring about Rickon's death.

[Lost Melnibonean]

51 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Right - and as I said, I don't know what those interests are, or how he will use Rickon to further his agenda...but this whole Davos Goes To Skagos adventure is indeed to further HIS agenda, not that of House Stark or even the North, necessarily.

That being said, I will not be surprised at all if Manderly kills Rickon or his actions bring about Rickon's death.

I meant to write betraying rather than erasing, but in any event, I think that for the time being, the interests of House Stark and the North as a whole, are relatively aligned with the interests of House Manderly. 

I would expect Wyman or Wylis to claim Rickon as his ward, taking him as page and squire, and to betroth him to a daughter of House Manderly. 

[SummerSphinx]

49 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't see loyal Manderly  erasing House Stark, but I do see him advancing the interests of his own house, as all lords in Westeros should. 

 

41 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Right - and as I said, I don't know what those interests are, or how he will use Rickon to further his agenda...but this whole Davos Goes To Skagos adventure is indeed to further HIS agenda, not that of House Stark or even the North, necessarily.

That being said, I will not be surprised at all if Manderly kills Rickon or his actions bring about Rickon's death.

Agreed.  I think Manderly would settle for a Stark/Manderly betrothal, though, and be more than happy to "help" the young lord Stark.  The house name does matter, as many in the North don't see the Manderly family as being of the North. If Rickon is a good puppet, or even just a grateful lord, it isn't so bad for Manderly. 

[The Drunkard]

On 1/11/2017 at 9:43 AM, PrettyPig said:

Right - and as I said, I don't know what those interests are, or how he will use Rickon to further his agenda...but this whole Davos Goes To Skagos adventure is indeed to further HIS agenda, not that of House Stark or even the North, necessarily.

That being said, I will not be surprised at all if Manderly kills Rickon or his actions bring about Rickon's death.

He wouldn't gain anything from killing Rickon whereas he stands to gain a lot from using him as a puppet raising him as a ward and serving as his regent, and throughout the books his focus has been gaining everything he could. He wanted to build a war fleet for the North and station it at White Harbor (and charge Winterfell for it), he charged Rodrik for the defensive upgrades he made to his city, he wanted to be in control of the North's new currency, and he had his soldiers fight Ramsay for control of the Hornwood lands. Rickon's just more of the same, an answer to Roose's control of 'Arya'/Jeyne that lets him rule over the other northern houses. I doubt he's planning to kill him or something that overtly sinister. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 minutes ago, The Drunkard said:

He wouldn't gain anything from killing Rickon whereas he stands to gain a lot from using him as a puppet raising him as a ward and serving as his regent, and throughout the books his focus has been gaining everything he could. He wanted to build a war fleet for the North and station it at White Harbor (and charge Winterfell for it), he charged Rodrik for the defensive upgrades he made to his city, he wanted to be in control of the North's new currency, and he had his soldiers fight Ramsay for control of the Hornwood lands. Rickon's just more of the same, an answer to Roose's control of 'Arya'/Jeyne that lets him rule over the other northern houses. I doubt he's planning to kill him or something that overtly sinister. 

Absolutely. 

[PCK]

On 1/7/2017 at 2:53 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

So, after a discussion on another thread with Lord Varys, which involved speculation on the minimum number of Davos chapters that would potentially be required in Winds of Winter to bring Rickon back into the storyline, it got me thinking about the Davos chapters in Dance. There are four of them. The first in Sisterton, and then three in White Harbor.

Now, considering that George is under heavy pressure to keep the books down to a manageable length, and that he ended up forced to cut some chapters intended for Dance and instead moved them to Winds - such as the Theon spoiler chapter for example, and all of the two battle scenes which he probably wanted to end Dance off with - one has to assume that everything that remains in the books is there because it adds important value to the overall story.

However, this leads me to wonder what the possible purpose of the Sisterton chapter was in the story. What does it add that is so crucial that it couldn't be omitted? On the face of it it is quite superfluous to have Davos wash out on Sweetsister. The story would have continued without a hitch if Saan instead had him rowed to shore in White Harbor, with Davos immediately entering the city instead of hanging around in Sisterton for a full chapter.

Don't get me wrong. I like the Sisterton chapter, because I like scenes that flesh out the history of Westeros, but the details of the Rape of the Three Sisters two thousand years ago could as easily have been provided to us by Ser Bartimus in his recounting of the Wolf's Den's history, making it unnecessary to dedicate a chapter to Davos having crab soup with the web-fingered Lord Godric Borrell first.

In short, the intention of getting Davos going after Rickon (while showing us developments in White Harbor at the same time), could have been fully achieved in three Davos Chapters, rather than the four Martin chose to dedicate to his storyline. So what gives? What was so necessary to show us on Sweetsister, that Martin had to allocate a whole chapter to it?

I guess one could argue that the offhand reference to Eddard Stark landing there at the start of the Rebellion might be the actual important information in that chapter, but it seems rather trivial and unnecessary for us to know that. The intriguing bit is if there is actually something important hidden in that chapter, that will form the foundation for some future important developments. Anyone have any ideas as to what it may be?

We need more Davos chapters, not fewer. Always a solid read.