Pondering on the purpose of the "Three Sisters" Davos Chapter in Dance

[Free Northman Reborn]

So, after a discussion on another thread with Lord Varys, which involved speculation on the minimum number of Davos chapters that would potentially be required in Winds of Winter to bring Rickon back into the storyline, it got me thinking about the Davos chapters in Dance. There are four of them. The first in Sisterton, and then three in White Harbor.

Now, considering that George is under heavy pressure to keep the books down to a manageable length, and that he ended up forced to cut some chapters intended for Dance and instead moved them to Winds - such as the Theon spoiler chapter for example, and all of the two battle scenes which he probably wanted to end Dance off with - one has to assume that everything that remains in the books is there because it adds important value to the overall story.

However, this leads me to wonder what the possible purpose of the Sisterton chapter was in the story. What does it add that is so crucial that it couldn't be omitted? On the face of it it is quite superfluous to have Davos wash out on Sweetsister. The story would have continued without a hitch if Saan instead had him rowed to shore in White Harbor, with Davos immediately entering the city instead of hanging around in Sisterton for a full chapter.

Don't get me wrong. I like the Sisterton chapter, because I like scenes that flesh out the history of Westeros, but the details of the Rape of the Three Sisters two thousand years ago could as easily have been provided to us by Ser Bartimus in his recounting of the Wolf's Den's history, making it unnecessary to dedicate a chapter to Davos having crab soup with the web-fingered Lord Godric Borrell first.

In short, the intention of getting Davos going after Rickon (while showing us developments in White Harbor at the same time), could have been fully achieved in three Davos Chapters, rather than the four Martin chose to dedicate to his storyline. So what gives? What was so necessary to show us on Sweetsister, that Martin had to allocate a whole chapter to it?

I guess one could argue that the offhand reference to Eddard Stark landing there at the start of the Rebellion might be the actual important information in that chapter, but it seems rather trivial and unnecessary for us to know that. The intriguing bit is if there is actually something important hidden in that chapter, that will form the foundation for some future important developments. Anyone have any ideas as to what it may be?

[Greywater-Watch]

Interesting question you ask.

From my memory, another interesting information given in this chapter is about the technique of misguiding lights to cause ships being wrecked at the shore, an information which might be important to understand Stannis' possible strategy in the battle of the snow (according to a prominent theory).

[The Drunkard]

The important things I picked out in that chapter were that:

- Saan abandoned Stannis and is returning to piracy in the south, 

- Davos is still more comfortable as a smuggler than a King's Hand but, despite that, is fairly good at reading people and can be a convincing negotiator, 

- The loyalty of Godric (and, by implication, other lords in westeros) is up for grabs now that Tywin is dead and Lannister power not supreme,

- White Harbor is very important, the "mouth" of the north, and it has apparently thrown in with the Lannisters, 

- Some random history things: Ned was there, Stannis hanged wreckers there, and the north and Vale used to fight over the Sisters and caused a lot of damage.

Like you, beyond the historical parts, I don't see anything that isn't or couldn't be covered in his later chapters. I suspect it's just bloat (reading Davos II and III make me think they could've been combined, too).

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

25 minutes ago, The Drunkard said:

The important things I picked out in that chapter were that:

- Saan abandoned Stannis and is returning to piracy in the south, 

- Davos is still more comfortable as a smuggler than a King's Hand but, despite that, is fairly good at reading people and can be a convincing negotiator, 

- The loyalty of Godric (and, by implication, other lords in westeros) is up for grabs now that Tywin is dead and Lannister power not supreme,

- White Harbor is very important, the "mouth" of the north, and it has apparently thrown in with the Lannisters, 

- Some random history things: Ned was there, Stannis hanged wreckers there, and the north and Vale used to fight over the Sisters and caused a lot of damage.

Like you, beyond the historical parts, I don't see anything that isn't or couldn't be covered in his later chapters. I suspect it's just bloat (reading Davos II and III make me think they could've been combined, too).

 

Yeah. When starting this thread I thought at first there were only three Davos chapters in Dance. Only upon double checking did I discover that his White Harbor visit in fact involved three chapters in its own right, not two. For some reason my recollection was that his arrival chapter included his presentation to the Merman's Court and subsequent arrest.

So arguably that could have been achieved in just two chapters, yes. However, the extra chapter there allowed him to flesh out and let us explore White Harbor a bit, which was quite welcome. Learning about the Old Mint, upgraded fortifications and new harbor walls, Seal Rock, the famed beer that sells for more than Arbor Gold per barrel, Manderly recruiting refugees into his army etc.

But adding an entire visit to Sisterton seems more significant than just adding some flesh to his worldbuilding.

[rotting sea cow]

Poor Quentyn has written some very good essays about Davos in aDwD  http://poorquentyn.tumblr.com/tagged/davos-in-adwd/chrono

But this highlights one of the problems that GRRM has, how to combine literally themes with plot developments. Both things are important! In general we fans focus too much on plot issues, sometimes missing other messages.

But because GRRM has deviced a rather large story filled with small themes and complex subplots, it has become more difficult to manage. We are in the fifth book and we are not fully at the end of the second act (out of three).

Unless we want GRRM to spare us of all these delicious details and character developments, we need to accept we are far away of the end of the series and two more books won't be sufficient.

 

[chrisdaw]

He pushed chapters because ADWD got too big, there's nothing to suggest he cut content. The chapter is primarily character building, Davos will be the pre-eminent statesman in series, how he comes to be so is part of the story. Particularly this chapter is a lesson, it teaches Davos another avenue to appeal to people, the safe option, the option which causes them no harm regardless of the unforeseeable outcomes. Before the end he'll have put it into practice.

[Lord Varys]

@Free Northman Reborn

George may be under pressure to write stuff, but he is under no pressure to keep the books short and only focus on plot. In fact, he doesn't care about of the size of them and considers them one large book. He doesn't write them with a specific place in the future book in mind (Prologues and Epilogues excluded, of course).

AFfC/ADwD had a lot of chapters that were fairly irrelevant to the overall plot. The first Aeron chapter, quite a few Brienne chapters, some Jaime and Cersei chapters, quite a few Jon chapters, and so on.

However, Davos 1 introduced us to the Three Sisters, the Sistermen, and Houses Borrell and Sunderland. It is not unlikely that the Sistermen are going to become important in the wars to come, either in the political squabbles to come or during the fight against the Others.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

I still think it's possible that the publication of ADWD was forced by the publisher:

"Goddammit George, it's been five years! I don't care if you want to keep tinkering, just take whatever you've got and put a fucking bow on it now!"

With that in mind, and knowing also that he likes to rewrite chapters and tinker lots, then it's entirely possible that, had he had his druthers, there would've only been 3 Davos chapters.

What I'm saying is, maybe the Davos chapters are an early draft that he meant to fix up later. It would explain Wex, too.

[The Hammer of Justice]

I think you are overthinking, that was purely a filler chapter, I don't think it will have impact on the story. If you think that every chapter is important, look at Davos II in Dance, the chapter was 100% about describing White Harbor, no plot happens

[Lord Varys]

23 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

I still think it's possible that the publication of ADWD was forced by the publisher:

"Goddammit George, it's been five years! I don't care if you want to keep tinkering, just take whatever you've got and put a fucking bow on it now!"

With that in mind, and knowing also that he likes to rewrite chapters and tinker lots, then it's entirely possible that, had he had his druthers, there would've only been 3 Davos chapters.

What I'm saying is, maybe the Davos chapters are an early draft that he meant to fix up later. It would explain Wex, too.

It is actually the Random House people who fuzz about that limit of 1,500 manuscript pages, etc. That's what got the battles moved into TWoW, and one assumes that the editors could easily enough have pointed out a lot of filler chapters or chapters that could be cut down some more. The fact that they did not do that shows how little impact the editors actually have on the final versions of the books. Anne Groell didn't like all those 'Words are wind' and 'Much and more' phrases all that much, either, yet they are still all in the book.

And George himself actually writes are rather unadorned prose. Everything he mentions - details, characters, descriptions, etc. - turns out to be important for the story. There is very little in the books just for the fun of it. We don't get any time to breathe and the narrator just describing to us the beauty of the view from the highest tower of the Great Sept on the Red Keep in the morning light, or something of that sort.

When I first read ADwD I really felt tricked by this kind of thing because if you know this you very easily catch any hint or clue George deliberately hid in the books. You just have to pay attention to everything. There is nothing that's really unimportant, unlike in the books of other writers.

George also said that he actually goes through a manuscript again after he has finished it to delete unimportant or superfluous stuff, focusing only on the important material (that kind of thing clearly thinned down the Blackfyre hints in the Tyrion chapters in comparison to the earlier version that were read).

At times the moving around of chapters doesn't work all that well. If you know that there were supposed to be three Arianne chapters in ADwD you can still see more or less where exactly they were supposed to be put into the story and how the flow of information would have worked better with them in the story than with them missing.

[Seams]

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

In general we fans focus too much on plot issues, sometimes missing other messages.

 

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

...There is very little in the books just for the fun of it.

...You just have to pay attention to everything. There is nothing that's really unimportant, unlike in the books of other writers.

I suspect this chapter is about entering, an act of transformation and change. Specifically, about entering the North, which is always important. For instance, finding a way to ingratiate oneself to the Frey family has to do with exiting and entering the North. The Reed family controls the Neck. Others have already mentioned the strategic importance of White Harbor. But important scenes such as Bran passing through the Weirwood "mouth" under the Night Fort could be compared to Davos passing through the Sister Isles.

The fact that Ned and Davos are the only characters known to have entered the North through the Sister Islands is probably very significant.

Another important symbolic act is eating from a bowl, believe it or not. There is a pun on bowl and bole, the latter word referring to a tree stump or trunk (so an association with weirwood trees in these books). So far, Davos is the only character we see eating a bowl of Sister Stew. There was an original post that was lost when the forum was reformatted that theorized that the three kinds of crabs in sister stew represented three kinds of "Others" (White Walkers, Others and Wights, maybe?). The author changed his mind after writing the post, but I thought the idea had merit. At any rate, we see Bran eating a special bowl of weirwood paste that enhances his greenseer powers, and here we see Davos eating a bowl of food that probably enhances something we haven't seen or recognized yet.

Davos is from Flea Bottom, so he is probably one of the few characters who has eaten bowls of brown. (We know Arya also ate brown when she was incognito in King's Landing.) I think there is a pun on Flea and Leaf, and GRRM wants us to compare Flea Bottom with the realm of the CotF (where a character is known as Leaf; and where communication can occur through rustling leaves). Tyrion's name for the stew known as brown is "Singer Stew." So there is another connection to the weirwood paste eaten by Bran, and presented to him by a CotF/Singer. So look for parallels between Davos in the North and Beyond the Wall with Arya and others in King's Landing and Flea Bottom.

A lot of Patchface's "under the sea" chatter occurs in the presence of Davos, and it's possible that Patchface's voice is describing symbolic versions of things that will happen to Davos. Maybe the power that Davos will exhibit won't be perceived as magical, but he is already a brilliant smuggler, and smuggle rhymes with juggle and that is something fools do. And GRRM's fools are wise and insightful, if we could only decipher what they are saying . . .

In the Scottish Play, Shakespeare begins with a scene showing three weird sisters. He doesn't come right out and say it, but the audience infers that these sisters are witches who are engaged in making magic by putting ingredients in a cauldron - sort of like a big magical bowl. The three sisters also allude to an ancient Celtic (and world) archetype of the three women who control fate, fertility, the harvest, etc. So the chapter on the sister islands could be GRRM signaling that, like the central figure in the Scottish Play, Davos (or someone close to him) might be a tragic figure with a destiny to be a short-term king (until Burnham Wood comes to Dunsinane?).

[Free Northman Reborn]

Interesting, guys.

Seams, nice theory, but I don't buy into the Shakespearean literary stuff. I don't personally think that Martin writes at such a symbolic level. Smuggler rhyming with juggler, the Flea Bottom equating to the Children because of similar bowls being described, various uses of alliteration like Singer's Soup etc, nope, I don't buy any of that. It reminds me of my English teacher in high school making you look for symbolic references in a book while you think, bloody hell, there's no way the author actually spent all that time actually meaning any of that. He would liikely be as surprised as I was at hearing that some straight forward use of a phrase supposedly means something symbolic, if you look at it just right.

I don't think this is Shakespeare level stuff, in other words. This is fantasy.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

@Free Northman Reborn

George may be under pressure to write stuff, but he is under no pressure to keep the books short and only focus on plot. In fact, he doesn't care about of the size of them and considers them one large book. He doesn't write them with a specific place in the future book in mind (Prologues and Epilogues excluded, of course).

AFfC/ADwD had a lot of chapters that were fairly irrelevant to the overall plot. The first Aeron chapter, quite a few Brienne chapters, some Jaime and Cersei chapters, quite a few Jon chapters, and so on.

However, Davos 1 introduced us to the Three Sisters, the Sistermen, and Houses Borrell and Sunderland. It is not unlikely that the Sistermen are going to become important in the wars to come, either in the political squabbles to come or during the fight against the Others.

Lord Varys

I get where you're coming from. I also wonder if the Sisters are going to turn out to be more important than they currently seem. Not sure how, just yet. But there are possibilities, I guess.

[Adam Yozza]

I believe the Sisterton chapter was set up for Stannis' battle against the Frey's. Look up the Nightlamps theory and the chapter makes a whole lot more sense.

[Lord Varys]

33 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Lord Varys

I get where you're coming from. I also wonder if the Sisters are going to turn out to be more important than they currently seem. Not sure how, just yet. But there are possibilities, I guess.

My take on the minimum number of Davos chapters for TWoW is mostly based on the travel aspect of the story. I expect the first chapter to cover the sea voyage, introducing Davos' companions and ending in the arrival on Skagos (if that goes easy), then the beginning of the search and the introduction of some Skagosi. Later on it will depend on what exactly George wants to happen. Is Rickon easy to find? Does he want to leave the island? What do the Skagosi want? Are there multiple factions involved? Are there further complications (say, perhaps some 'dead things in the water' in evidence near Hardhome have already reached Skagos?).

Travels quickly get complicated in this series. Just look at Brienne's, Arya's, Tyrion's, etc. travelogue chapters. I'd be very surprised if Davos suddenly got Rickon out of that place in three chapters. That would not fit well with the overall tone of the series. And I'd actually be surprised if things turned out as expected. I don't doubt that Rickon will eventually leave the island but perhaps other things are going to happen first connecting this story with another. Just look how the introduction of Aegon changed the game in the south.

[JLE]

Isn't this also the chapter in which GRRM throws *another* red herring out about the possible origins of Jon Snow? That of the fisherman who got Ned Stark out of the Vale to the North, and his daughter - the fisherman dying in a storm, and the daughter being pregnant and being given a bag full of silver by Ned Stark?

The only trouble with this theory for Jon Snow's parentage is, it happens too early - *before* he marries Catelyn - and with a woman whose identity is too obscure to need to be protected. Had Ned sired a bastard under such circumstances, he would almost certainly have dealt with it the traditional way - the bag full of silver to pay for the boy's upkeep (and be a useful dowry for her to find a husband), and that would be that.

However it's a good enough story to fool most of the plebs in the North, and possibly act as a cover-up for the Ashara Dayne rumour (the person at Winterfell who spread that rumour was dismissed, i.e. free to go where he pleases and spread his rumour where he pleases)... which in turn makes anyone who hears both the "Sisterton fisherman's daughter" and "Ashara Dayne" rumours believe that the former is a cover-up for the latter, thus obscuring the fact that Ashara is herself the *second* cover-up, for the actual real parentage of Jon, namely R+L.

(In all probability, the daughter's bastard is not actually Ned's, and she was pregnant before the voyage, and the bag of silver had nothing to do with that and everything to do with being compensation for her father's death in the storm.)

[Clegane'sPup]

It’s snowing outside so I’m gonna be stuck for a day or two. A few of my musings are:  back in CoK Stannis sent Davos to Gulltown, the Fingers, the Three Sisters and White Harbor to deliver letters about Cersei & Jaime’s incest and that Robert’s children are not really his children.

Another reason beside the history and the recipe for Three Sister Stew was the Jon Snow momma thing. When I first read it in 2011 it was one of those WTF moments. It’s revealed that Eddard had passed through the area when he was trying to get to WF to call his banners.

Quote

 

"This child king commands the wealth of Casterly Rock and the power of Highgarden. He has the Boltons and the Freys." Lord Godric rubbed his chin. "Still … in this world only winter is certain. Ned Stark told my father that, here in this very hall."

"Ned Stark was here?"  "At the dawn of Robert's Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way. The fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.

 

Whether Three Sisters is going to play a role in the next two books I couldn’t say. If a ship or fleet wants to get to White Harbor they need to get past the group of island lords who are known to use trickery. Almost the same setup with KL and Dragonstone. While Robert was King and Stannis was at Dragonstone an enemy fleet would need to fight its way to KL.

The only other thing that comes to mind is that Saan is a pirate and probably not welcome at White Harbor.

Har! I see that JLE mentioned the baby momma thing too.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I think people have covered everything here.  It doesn't have to be 1 big thing but can be several small things.  Reminding us to pay attention to Jons parents, setting up the night lamp trick, showing us that lords will be doubting the Lannister alliance now, and even smaller things such as the webbed fingers possibly reinforcing the notion of Deep Ones or whatever nimble dick calls them.

[Doran the Dreamer]

8 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Poor Quentyn has written some very good essays about Davos in aDwD  http://poorquentyn.tumblr.com/tagged/davos-in-adwd/chrono

But this highlights one of the problems that GRRM has, how to combine literally themes with plot developments. Both things are important! In general we fans focus too much on plot issues, sometimes missing other messages.

But because GRRM has deviced a rather large story filled with small themes and complex subplots, it has become more difficult to manage. We are in the fifth book and we are not fully at the end of the second act (out of three).

Unless we want GRRM to spare us of all these delicious details and character developments, we need to accept we are far away of the end of the series and two more books won't be sufficient.

 

This essay makes a very good point about the chapter. He points about that the main theme (or at least one of the main themes) throughout's Davos' entire story arc is his inner conflict between his identity as a smuggler and as a lord. And at Sisterton, Davos is thrown back into his old life as a smuggler. It's interesting for his character development, not so much for the story moving along

Of course, it also has other uses, as suggested by other posters:

- the idea of the false beacon

- a red harring about Jon's mother

- possibly an introduction to the Sistermen if they will be important in some storyline (maybe Sansa's)

[St Daga]

13 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So, after a discussion on another thread with Lord Varys, which involved speculation on the minimum number of Davos chapters that would potentially be required in Winds of Winter to bring Rickon back into the storyline, it got me thinking about the Davos chapters in Dance. There are four of them. The first in Sisterton, and then three in White Harbor.

Now, considering that George is under heavy pressure to keep the books down to a manageable length, and that he ended up forced to cut some chapters intended for Dance and instead moved them to Winds - such as the Theon spoiler chapter for example, and all of the two battle scenes which he probably wanted to end Dance off with - one has to assume that everything that remains in the books is there because it adds important value to the overall story. 

However, this leads me to wonder what the possible purpose of the Sisterton chapter was in the story. What does it add that is so crucial that it couldn't be omitted? On the face of it it is quite superfluous to have Davos wash out on Sweetsister. The story would have continued without a hitch if Saan instead had him rowed to shore in White Harbor, with Davos immediately entering the city instead of hanging around in Sisterton for a full chapter.

Don't get me wrong. I like the Sisterton chapter, because I like scenes that flesh out the history of Westeros, but the details of the Rape of the Three Sisters two thousand years ago could as easily have been provided to us by Ser Bartimus in his recounting of the Wolf's Den's history, making it unnecessary to dedicate a chapter to Davos having crab soup with the web-fingered Lord Godric Borrell first.

In short, the intention of getting Davos going after Rickon (while showing us developments in White Harbor at the same time), could have been fully achieved in three Davos Chapters, rather than the four Martin chose to dedicate to his storyline. So what gives? What was so necessary to show us on Sweetsister, that Martin had to allocate a whole chapter to it?

I guess one could argue that the offhand reference to Eddard Stark landing there at the start of the Rebellion might be the actual important information in that chapter, but it seems rather trivial and unnecessary for us to know that. The intriguing bit is if there is actually something important hidden in that chapter, that will form the foundation for some future important developments. Anyone have any ideas as to what it may be?

There is nothing superfluous that GRRM writes. There are keys hidden in details surrounded by content that seems inessential, but nothing really is trivial. The author gives us facts and facets, red herrings and feints, but nothing that isn't important. It is for us to try to suss out what is important, and we might not see those things for another book or two. That is the beauty of this story and the writing! Everything has a purpose, even what we think could be just GRRM world building, might be vastly important to the overall plot. I take nothing in the text for granted.

It is certainly important that Davos be aware before he goes to White Harbor that if he walks into the New Castle, he may be walking into a noose; if the Manderly's have betrayed the Starks and have pledged to the Lannister cause, then Davos has every reason to return to Stannis without attempting to full fill his mission. Even knowing what he knows, and that he will probably be executed or sent to Cersei for execution, he still decides to carry out his mission. That is certainly character building for Davos and important to the plot.

It also makes us again see the parallel's between Davos and Ned Stark, which are apparent throughout the story. Ned and Davos are some of the moral compasses we have in this story, and I think that there is a reason that we are introduced to Davos as a POV after we say goodbye to Ned's POV. They are similar people in honor, ideals and loyalty, even though they have very dissimilar backgrounds.

There is the obvious parallel of Ned and Davos arriving in Sisterton in stormy weather is a small boat, both with missions of great importance, Ned to call his banners in an effort to help the cause of the rebellion and Davos to help Stannis who, while he is King Roberts eldest brother and true heir, is acting in a sense of rebellion again Tommen, who is Robert's heir by name but not by blood.

He was soaked and sore and haggard, worn thin by grief and betrayal, and sick to death of storms. Davos I-ADWD

I think this could very well be exactly how Ned felt when he arrived in Sisterton, exhausted from the storm, grieving the death of his father and brother, facing the war to come, knowing  so much depended on his success in completing his mission.

Traitor. Rebel. Turncloak. These are things that Lord Borrell says to Davos that his father may well have said to Ned Stark. 

Ned is trying to get to White Harbor to seek help from the Manderly's, so too is Davos.

... maybe I am reading to much into the Ned/Davos parallel, but I see it all the time in the text.

Also, we get an idea of Ned's movements during the rebellion and this information on "the fisherman's daughter" is new to the reader but whom people in this area of the North and Vale believe to be Jon Snow's mother. Maybe she is Jon's mother. Any hints we get at Jon Snow's parentage are important. We don't yet know the truth, and while one theory has become wildly accepted, the text has not yet revealed the truth. Which means that almost anything is still possible in the realm of the connection between Ned and Jon. 

 

Quote

 

12 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yeah. When starting this thread I thought at first there were only three Davos chapters in Dance. Only upon double checking did I discover that his White Harbor visit in fact involved three chapters in its own right, not two. For some reason my recollection was that his arrival chapter included his presentation to the Merman's Court and subsequent arrest.

So arguably that could have been achieved in just two chapters, yes. However, the extra chapter there allowed him to flesh out and let us explore White Harbor a bit, which was quite welcome. Learning about the Old Mint, upgraded fortifications and new harbor walls, Seal Rock, the famed beer that sells for more than Arbor Gold per barrel, Manderly recruiting refugees into his army etc.

But adding an entire visit to Sisterton seems more significant than just adding some flesh to his worldbuilding.

I agree that this visit to Sisterton is significant in many ways, some of which we may not know until the very end of this epic story.

10 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Poor Quentyn has written some very good essays about Davos in aDwD  http://poorquentyn.tumblr.com/tagged/davos-in-adwd/chrono

But this highlights one of the problems that GRRM has, how to combine literally themes with plot developments. Both things are important! In general we fans focus too much on plot issues, sometimes missing other messages.

But because GRRM has deviced a rather large story filled with small themes and complex subplots, it has become more difficult to manage. We are in the fifth book and we are not fully at the end of the second act (out of three).

Unless we want GRRM to spare us of all these delicious details and character developments, we need to accept we are far away of the end of the series and two more books won't be sufficient.

 

I agree about GRRM attempting to wrap this up in two more books. I can see where nine books would be appropriate, and I hope that is how it works out. Are you listening GRRM? You have my permission to write as many books as you need to tell your story, for what that is worth!

8 hours ago, The Hammer of Justice said:

I think you are overthinking, that was purely a filler chapter, I don't think it will have impact on the story. If you think that every chapter is important, look at Davos II in Dance, the chapter was 100% about describing White Harbor, no plot happens

Maybe this statement is meant to be sarcasm? If so, forgive me for not picking up on that. If not ...

This is not a filler chapter, and neither is Davos II. We get lot's of information here, and in all of Davos' POV chapters. The information we get is important to the plot of this entire story. Do you truly believe in Davos II we get no plot? Really? The Merman's Court, the Order of the Green Hand, the interplay between Davos, Wyman, the Frey's is certainly plot development, including the lies the Frey's tell about Robb Stark turning into a werewolf and killing Wyman's son Wendel and how that seems to be accepted, Wylla Manderly's sassy interjections and her declaring that the Manderly's would always be Stark men, the information on the Karstark's planning to betray Stannis after pledging to him is plot development, our impression that Davos is being hauled off to the Wolf's Den to have his head and hand cut off.

No plot development at all ... Never mind, it must have been sarcasm

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And George himself actually writes are rather unadorned prose. Everything he mentions - details, characters, descriptions, etc. - turns out to be important for the story. There is very little in the books just for the fun of it. We don't get any time to breathe and the narrator just describing to us the beauty of the view from the highest tower of the Great Sept on the Red Keep in the morning light, or something of that sort.

When I first read ADwD I really felt tricked by this kind of thing because if you know this you very easily catch any hint or clue George deliberately hid in the books. You just have to pay attention to everything. There is nothing that's really unimportant, unlike in the books of other writers.

George also said that he actually goes through a manuscript again after he has finished it to delete unimportant or superfluous stuff, focusing only on the important material (that kind of thing clearly thinned down the Blackfyre hints in the Tyrion chapters in comparison to the earlier version that were read).

At times the moving around of chapters doesn't work all that well. If you know that there were supposed to be three Arianne chapters in ADwD you can still see more or less where exactly they were supposed to be put into the story and how the flow of information would have worked better with them in the story than with them missing.

Yes, yes, yes! I think people can be lulled and overwhelmed by details, but I agree it is all vastly important.

8 hours ago, Seams said:

I suspect this chapter is about entering, an act of transformation and change. Specifically, about entering the North, which is always important. For instance, finding a way to ingratiate oneself to the Frey family has to do with exiting and entering the North. The Reed family controls the Neck. Others have already mentioned the strategic importance of White Harbor. But important scenes such as Bran passing through the Weirwood "mouth" under the Night Fort could be compared to Davos passing through the Sister Isles.

The fact that Ned and Davos are the only characters known to have entered the North through the Sister Islands is probably very significant.

Another important symbolic act is eating from a bowl, believe it or not. There is a pun on bowl and bole, the latter word referring to a tree stump or trunk (so an association with weirwood trees in these books). So far, Davos is the only character we see eating a bowl of Sister Stew. There was an original post that was lost when the forum was reformatted that theorized that the three kinds of crabs in sister stew represented three kinds of "Others" (White Walkers, Others and Wights, maybe?). The author changed his mind after writing the post, but I thought the idea had merit. At any rate, we see Bran eating a special bowl of weirwood paste that enhances his greenseer powers, and here we see Davos eating a bowl of food that probably enhances something we haven't seen or recognized yet.

Davos is from Flea Bottom, so he is probably one of the few characters who has eaten bowls of brown. (We know Arya also ate brown when she was incognito in King's Landing.) I think there is a pun on Flea and Leaf, and GRRM wants us to compare Flea Bottom with the realm of the CotF (where a character is known as Leaf; and where communication can occur through rustling leaves). Tyrion's name for the stew known as brown is "Singer Stew." So there is another connection to the weirwood paste eaten by Bran, and presented to him by a CotF/Singer. So look for parallels between Davos in the North and Beyond the Wall with Arya and others in King's Landing and Flea Bottom.

This information on the crab meat in Sister's Stew is very interesting. Thanks for the heads up. I will need to look into that. I never tied it to a bowl of brown or what ever was in the bowl that Bran ate.

And I agree that information on getting into the North is important, for now and the past. GRRM weaves a immense tale in minute details different perceptions. This story of Jon's Snow's parentage is told to us in small details and stories, just like we get information on Robert's Rebellions, Summerhall and the Tourney at Harrenhal. Little drops of information scattered about that will eventually form a puddle of knowledge that we can call the truth.

Something that I took out of this chapter that has no real explanation is when Davos looks at Lord Borrell's daughter's daughters hand. When Davos saw her hand, he stared. Lord Godric did not fail to make note of it. "Aye, she has the mark. Like all Borrells, for five thousand years. My daughter's daughter. Davos I-ADWD What is that about? We already know that Borrell has webbed fingers, so this is obviously different. What is it, and what does it mean? Five thousand years? Did Ned Stark see this mark on the hand of this woman's mother years before when he was in Sisterton talking with the previous Lord Borrell? Three sisters are these islands; three sisters are like Fate in many world mythos; three sisters could be Maiden, Mother, Crone; three sisters are like the three witches that predicted the rise and fall of MacBeth. It must mean something, but I have no idea, but it might turn out to be important, or it might not. But it is worth noting. The writing is amazing!

6 hours ago, JLE said:

Isn't this also the chapter in which GRRM throws *another* red herring out about the possible origins of Jon Snow? That of the fisherman who got Ned Stark out of the Vale to the North, and his daughter - the fisherman dying in a storm, and the daughter being pregnant and being given a bag full of silver by Ned Stark?

The only trouble with this theory for Jon Snow's parentage is, it happens too early - *before* he marries Catelyn - and with a woman whose identity is too obscure to need to be protected. Had Ned sired a bastard under such circumstances, he would almost certainly have dealt with it the traditional way - the bag full of silver to pay for the boy's upkeep (and be a useful dowry for her to find a husband), and that would be that.

However it's a good enough story to fool most of the plebs in the North, and possibly act as a cover-up for the Ashara Dayne rumour (the person at Winterfell who spread that rumour was dismissed, i.e. free to go where he pleases and spread his rumour where he pleases)... which in turn makes anyone who hears both the "Sisterton fisherman's daughter" and "Ashara Dayne" rumours believe that the former is a cover-up for the latter, thus obscuring the fact that Ashara is herself the *second* cover-up, for the actual real parentage of Jon, namely R+L.

(In all probability, the daughter's bastard is not actually Ned's, and she was pregnant before the voyage, and the bag of silver had nothing to do with that and everything to do with being compensation for her father's death in the storm.)

I know that one theory of Jon's parentage has become so widely accepted, it seems like it has been confirmed, but it has not been by any means. I, myself, after my first read of aGoT almost 6 years ago now lead me to believe in that theory. But I am not sold 100% and never was, and the more rereads I do, I think that theory is NOT the case at all. This story is too complicated and I truly doubt that GRRM made it so obvious. We have no idea who this "fisherman's daughter" is, maybe she is Ashara, or Wylla, or Lyanna incognito, and maybe she is truly a fisherman's daughter who saved Ned's life. If that is the case, then I can see his payment  being a bag of silver. If that woman was carrying Ned's child, he would not send her off with some cash. It doesn't fit his character at all. Whoever Jon's parents are, whether Ned is truly his father or not, Ned raised Jon as his son. If he had a bastard child who was not Jon, he would have something to do with that child's life.

"Many men fathered bastards ... The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see." Catelyn II, AGOT.

I always come back to that statement by Catelyn. Ned could have claimed many things about Jon that didn't include naming him Lyanna's son. He could have said that he was Rickard's son or Brandon's or Benjen's but he chose to name him his own son. He wanted the north (and all of Westeros) to know he claimed Jon as his son. It would have been so easy, so many other ways, but Ned didn't take the easy route, he took the route he felt was right for him and Jon. 

Who know's what is or isn't a "red herring", although it is funny to think of this fisherman's daughter story as a red herring (Fisherman? Herring? Har!) but at different times I have believed that Dany's whole story line is a red herring to distract us from the true hero, Jon. But the truth could be just the opposite. Any information we get is important to establishing the truth. It may not lead to the actual truth, it may be just a distraction, or it may lead to figuring out what is the truth by using our deductive skills. This is a great mystery and HE, the great GRRM, has written it so as not to be easy.

The timeline is all sorts of a mess, which I believe GRRM has tangled on purpose to make us think things are or are not possible, when they actually are very possible. It is very possible that Robb is younger than Jon, or vice versa. It is very possible that Jon is much older than we think. We don't even know what child, if any child, was born in the Tower of Joy, or what really happened before, at, or after the ToJ. We really don't know much, we just think we know a lot! Huge difference and GRRM is a tricksy bird!

[SummerSphinx]

I remember discussing the story of the fisherman's daughter ages and ages ago, but the thread seems to be lost.

Her story feels like one of those tales that has some grains of truth to it, but the gossip probably gets many details wrong.

I don't have a full theory, but I strongly believe in generating lots of ideas before knocking out the impossible ones. I wonder about her. Some thoughts:

1.  There probably was a woman who arrived with Ned.

2. She probably had a bag of silver, or more money than a typical fisherman's daughter would have.

3. She may have been pregnant.

But was she really a fisherman's daughter?  Where did she go?  If she stayed local, the islanders of Sweetsister would probably know her and the "other Jon Snow", so I suspect she eventually left or died. Did she return to the Fingers? Wouldn't there be another Jon Snow on the Fingers then?  Is she Wylla the wetnurse?

The timing seems too early for any baby to be "our" Lord Commander Jon Snow (who is most likely Lyanna's), because the child would be noticeably older than Robb (please correct me if this is wrong). I remember wondering if the "fisherman's daughter" was someone more significant than she seemed...someone smuggled out of the Vale with Ned.  But who?  And why?

Possibilities:  

1. Actual fisherman's daughter, pregnant with the child of an unnamed and unimportant man (or no baby at all), Ned gave her money for her help and for the loss of her father. 

2. Actual fisherman's daughter, actually pregnant with Ned's child, another "Jon Snow" out there somewhere (alive, dead, missing, disguised?) Went to Dorne, Wylla?

3. Ashara in disguise as fisherman's daughter because she "looked to Stark" for help in the Vale (pregnant with Brandon's child, with Ned's child, with Robert's child, with Rhaegar's child, with Selmy's child, with Mad King Aerys' child, with Howland Reed's child???)

4. Fling of Robert's (bastard Gendry's mom, another bastard). Just because he did that sort of thing.

5. Wife of Robert's (accidental/drunk nuptials, legitimate Gendry's mom, or other legit Baratheon). Just because. Gendry seemed significant in the early books, and it messes up Cercei's claim even more. The mystery woman could be the "Sailor's Wife" of Braavos. 

6.   Lyanna (somehow never "kidnapped" by Rhaegar, ran to Vale, smuggled out to be with Rhaegar? This is very unlikely, because Robert was in the Vale, too.)

7.  Lady Dustin with Brandon's child? Or another fling of Brandon's? Smuggled out to protect her and her child from the Mad King who seemed to be targeting Starks. Ned was going to marry her to help her out, and then the Cat thing came up?  Child died or home found for it elsewhere (Roose's first, killed by Ramsey?) Bastard, or true heir to Winterfell?

As for why:

1. Perhaps under instructions from Jon Arryn  (Northern Conspiracy, or to free Robert or Ned up for marriage alliance).

 2. Out of Ned's duty/love for a family member (Brandon, Lyanna).

3. Out of friendship (Robert, Howland).

4. Out of Ned's love for a woman (Ashara, fisherman's daughter, another).

I know these aren't full-fledged, highly researched thoughts, but I, too, have wondered why GRRM bothered with that chapter at all.