The Fresh PtwP Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 4 hours ago, Jadakiss said: Tybald using the maesters pink ink that he has and written dictated by stannis with the help of theon all fits perfect if you look at the contents of the letter Right in the previous chapter Theon tells stannis "he will want his reek back" and sure enough in the letter "I want my reek back" along with 50 other things Wouldn't Jon, who has seen Ramsay's handwriting, comment if it was written by someone else? That just proves that Theon was right. Ramsay wants his reek back. What 50 other things? i'm curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadakiss Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 5 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said: Wouldn't Jon, who has seen Ramsay's handwriting, comment if it was written by someone else? That just proves that Theon was right. Ramsay wants his reek back. What 50 other things? i'm curious. How would Jon know if its his or not? He doesn't have ramsays other letters to compare it to..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fresh PtwP Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 7 hours ago, Jadakiss said: How would Jon know if its his or not? He doesn't have ramsays other letters to compare it to..... Ramsay has very distinct handwriting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 8 hours ago, Jadakiss said: How would Jon know if its his or not? He doesn't have ramsays other letters to compare it to..... Jon receives a letter from Ramsay before the PL. A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI "No, my lord." Clydas thrust the parchment forward. It was tightly rolled and sealed, with a button of hard pink wax. Only the Dreadfort uses pink sealing wax. Jon ripped off his gauntlet, took the letter, cracked the seal. When he saw the signature, he forgot the battering Rattleshirt had given him. Ramsay Bolton, Lord of the Hornwood, it read, in a huge, spiky hand. The brown ink came away in flakes when Jon brushed it with his thumb. Beneath Bolton's signature, Lord Dustin, Lady Cerwyn, and four Ryswells had appended their own marks and seals. A cruder hand had drawn the giant of House Umber. "Might we know what it says, my lord?" asked Iron Emmett. Jon saw no reason not to tell him. "Moat Cailin is taken. The flayed corpses of the ironmen have been nailed to posts along the kingsroad. Roose Bolton summons all leal lords to Barrowton, to affirm their loyalty to the Iron Throne and celebrate his son's wedding to …" His heart seemed to stop for a moment. No, that is not possible. She died in King's Landing, with Father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makk Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 8 hours ago, Jadakiss said: How would Jon know if its his or not? He doesn't have ramsays other letters to compare it to..... Yes he does!!! Ramsay Bolton, Lord of the Hornwood, it read, in a huge, spiky hand. The brown ink came away in flakes when Jon brushed it with his thumb. Beneath Bolton's signature, Lord Dustin, Lady Cerwyn, and four Ryswells had appended their own marks and seals. A cruder hand had drawn the giant of House Umber. "Might we know what it says, my lord?" asked Iron Emmett. Jon saw no reason not to tell him. "Moat Cailin is taken. The flayed corpses of the ironmen have been nailed to posts along the kingsroad. Roose Bolton summons all leal lords to Barrowton, to affirm their loyalty to the Iron Throne and celebrate his son's wedding to …" His heart seemed to stop for a moment. No, that is not possible. She died in King's Landing, with Father. "Lord Snow?" Clydas peered at him closely with his dim pink eyes. "Are you … unwell? You seem …" "He's to marry Arya Stark. My little sister." Jon could almost see her in that moment, long-faced and gawky, all knobby knees and sharp elbows, with her dirty face and tangled hair. They would wash the one and comb the other, he did not doubt, but he could not imagine Arya in a wedding gown, nor Ramsay Bolton's bed. No matter how afraid she is, she will not show it. If he tries to lay a hand on her, she'll fight him. "Your sister," Iron Emmett said, "how old is …" By now she'd be eleven, Jon thought. Still a child. "I have no sister. Only brothers. Only you." Lady Catelyn would have rejoiced to hear those words, he knew. That did not make them easier to say. His fingers closed around the parchment. Would that they could crush Ramsay Bolton's throat as easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadakiss Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 2 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said: Ramsay has very distinct handwriting... you just proved my point for me. his other letters were a very certain way. nothing of the pink letter matches anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadakiss Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Makk said: Yes he does!!! Ramsay Bolton, Lord of the Hornwood, it read, in a huge, spiky hand. The brown ink came away in flakes when Jon brushed it with his thumb. Beneath Bolton's signature, Lord Dustin, Lady Cerwyn, and four Ryswells had appended their own marks and seals. A cruder hand had drawn the giant of House Umber. "Might we know what it says, my lord?" asked Iron Emmett. Jon saw no reason not to tell him. "Moat Cailin is taken. The flayed corpses of the ironmen have been nailed to posts along the kingsroad. Roose Bolton summons all leal lords to Barrowton, to affirm their loyalty to the Iron Throne and celebrate his son's wedding to …" His heart seemed to stop for a moment. No, that is not possible. She died in King's Landing, with Father. "Lord Snow?" Clydas peered at him closely with his dim pink eyes. "Are you … unwell? You seem …" "He's to marry Arya Stark. My little sister." Jon could almost see her in that moment, long-faced and gawky, all knobby knees and sharp elbows, with her dirty face and tangled hair. They would wash the one and comb the other, he did not doubt, but he could not imagine Arya in a wedding gown, nor Ramsay Bolton's bed. No matter how afraid she is, she will not show it. If he tries to lay a hand on her, she'll fight him. "Your sister," Iron Emmett said, "how old is …" By now she'd be eleven, Jon thought. Still a child. "I have no sister. Only brothers. Only you." Lady Catelyn would have rejoiced to hear those words, he knew. That did not make them easier to say. His fingers closed around the parchment. Would that they could crush Ramsay Bolton's throat as easily. uhh wtf is this? nowhere in there shows that Jon has any clue who reek is. or what this person is called in reek.....he only knows him as theon. and even in this he didnt mention theon. ramsay writing reek makes no sense either because at the wall they have no clue who that is mainly jon that post of yours makes 0 sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingMance Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 @Jadakiss they both answered your (wrong) claim that Jon doesn't know Ramsay's handwriting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 10 hours ago, Jadakiss said: How would Jon know if its his or not? He doesn't have ramsays other letters to compare it to..... 7 minutes ago, Jadakiss said: uhh wtf is this? nowhere in there shows that Jon has any clue who reek is. or what this person is called in reek.....he only knows him as theon. and even in this he didnt mention theon. ramsay writing reek makes no sense either because at the wall they have no clue who that is mainly jon that post of yours makes 0 sense You keep moving the goalposts. First, Jon had never seen Ramsay's handwriting, now he doesn't know who Reek is. Etc etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadakiss Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 47 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: You keep moving the goalposts. First, Jon had never seen Ramsay's handwriting, now he doesn't know who Reek is. Etc etc etc. I mis typed about Jon. We know Ramsays hand writing and can compare. Yes obviously Jon believes it is from Ramsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadakiss Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 49 minutes ago, KingMance said: @Jadakiss they both answered your (wrong) claim that Jon doesn't know Ramsay's handwriting. Yea that part is my fault. Jon has no idea who reek is, is all I meant to say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadakiss Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 @aegon_unleashed Yes exactly. people saying ramsay wrote it are pretty much saying grrm doesn't have specific things for specific characters, and has a bad memory of what characters do and say Theon says the word "whore" tons of times, think would be in 2nd place to Tyrion. Ramsay has NEVER used it once. So doubt all of a sudden in this letter he would use that word multiple times. Same thing for bastard except the case for that isn't as strong, the only case for that is he hates the word. But "whore" he has never once used, why Theon uses it all the time. Add everything up and it points to Maester Tybald with his pink ink, dictated by stannis with the help of theon. I have that big thread in my signature that I am happy to look at cause good chunk of people aren't so slow Grrm put it in there too shock people at first read. But stacked with clues and info so someone on their 2nd read cut put it together, worst case as a slow person 4th read? with help? but to still think is comical. just my opinion. I think he released the winds chapter involving stannis for that reason. or crap even before it he has tormund say that line for a reason. these clowns can say what they want but nothing in the pink letter matches ramsay. Even if their was an actual legit house bolton seal I could least give it a possible chance Cantuse has a very good read on the subject as well https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2015/03/03/a-ghostwriter-in-winterfell/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fresh PtwP Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 @Jadakiss You still haven't answered my initial question, Jon has seen Ramsay's hand writing, why doesn't he comment on it not being Ramsay's? Why does Jon think the PL is from Ramsay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 On 18-2-2017 at 0:59 AM, Nevets said: And we have a very small sample of letters actually written by him in any case to use for comparison.. We have more letters written and worded by Ramsay than we have of other characters to compare to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 49 minutes ago, The Fresh PtwP said: @Jadakiss You still haven't answered my initial question, Jon has seen Ramsay's hand writing, why doesn't he comment on it not being Ramsay's? Why does Jon think the PL is from Ramsay? Well, the letters that Jon has seen were majorly written by a maester, with Ramsay's words. The spiky hand is in the signature or last line. You're honing in on Jon failing to notice the absence of spiky handwriting, thereby concluding that it is written in Ramsay's spiky handwriting. This conclusion would work, if Jon didn't also fail to hold-on-for-a-moment by wondering the absence of the seal, absence of signatures from other lords and ladies that proclaimed themselves team-Bolton, absence of skin, absence of flaking ink (blood). Jon fails to comment or stand still on many of the discrepancies that are in evidence. If he fails to comment on those, such as asking aloud "Hey why isn't there a seal in this pink wax?" then him failing to comment on "Hmmm, different handwriting," is not abnormal. Jon tends to dismiss details, tends to dismiss treachery, mutinous talk, while he is far more able to take people on their words. Oh, pink wax. Who cares it hasn't a seal. It's Bolton wax, so must be a letter from the Boltons. Oh it says it's a letter from Ramsay, so must be a letter from Ramsay. Doesn't matter to him that there are discrepancies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makk Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 19 minutes ago, sweetsunray said: We have more letters written and worded by Ramsay than we have of other characters to compare to. 5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said: Well, the letters that Jon has seen were majorly written by a maester, with Ramsay's words. The spiky hand is in the signature or last line. Which letters are these? We have the letter Jon receives advising him of Ramsay's marriage to Arya and we see Asha receive one. Have I missed and forgotten entire letters? The text of these letters isn't given (are they?), just snippets of what the PoV characters is reading. And where does it say a Maester writes most of the message? The only place I can find that mentions it seems quite the opposite... "Ramsay Bolton, Lord of Winterfell, he signs himself. But there are other names as well." Lady Dustin, Lady Cerwyn, and four Ryswells had appended their own signatures beneath his. Beside them was drawn a crude giant, the mark of some Umber. Those were done in maester's ink, made of soot and coal tar, but the message above was scrawled in brown in a huge, spiky hand. It spoke of the fall of Moat Cailin, of the triumphant return of the Warden of the North to his domains, of a marriage soon to be made. The first words were, "I write this letter in the blood of ironmen," the last, "I send you each a piece of prince. Linger in my lands, and share his fate." There is nothing in what I can find that makes me doubt the last letter was Ramsay. I may have missed something, any chance of the text of what you are talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fresh PtwP Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said: Well, the letters that Jon has seen were majorly written by a maester, with Ramsay's words. The spiky hand is in the signature or last line. You're honing in on Jon failing to notice the absence of spiky handwriting, thereby concluding that it is written in Ramsay's spiky handwriting. This conclusion would work, if Jon didn't also fail to hold-on-for-a-moment by wondering the absence of the seal, absence of signatures from other lords and ladies that proclaimed themselves team-Bolton, absence of skin, absence of flaking ink (blood). Jon fails to comment or stand still on many of the discrepancies that are in evidence. If he fails to comment on those, such as asking aloud "Hey why isn't there a seal in this pink wax?" then him failing to comment on "Hmmm, different handwriting," is not abnormal. Jon tends to dismiss details, tends to dismiss treachery, mutinous talk, while he is far more able to take people on their words. Oh, pink wax. Who cares it hasn't a seal. It's Bolton wax, so must be a letter from the Boltons. Oh it says it's a letter from Ramsay, so must be a letter from Ramsay. Doesn't matter to him that there are discrepancies. Hand writing is a much bigger discrepancy to hide especially in the case of someone like Ramsay with a unique style. You could fairly easily explain the others but if you have the least bit of doubt about the letter mismatched hand writing should be a dead giveaway. Ramsay being surrounded by people who hate him, and losing the one thing holding back their rage, to me covers alot of the issues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 2 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said: Hand writing is a much bigger discrepancy to hide especially in the case of someone like Ramsay with a unique style. You could fairly easily explain the others but if you have the least bit of doubt about the letter mismatched hand writing should be a dead giveaway. Not if maesters write letters too. So, the handwriting can be explained in Jon's mind too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 3 hours ago, Makk said: Which letters are these? We have the letter Jon receives advising him of Ramsay's marriage to Arya and we see Asha receive one. Have I missed and forgotten entire letters? The text of these letters isn't given (are they?), just snippets of what the PoV characters is reading. And where does it say a Maester writes most of the message? The only place I can find that mentions it seems quite the opposite... The point is that we have 2 letters to compare to as readers, and described in far more detail than any other letter mentioned, read or written in the books with other characters. We have Catelyn translating a letter from Lysa, focusing on coding and the box it was sent in. We have Catelyn relate the message from Robert to Ned about Jon Arryn's death. We have Stannis dictating/composing a letter in aCoK to be sent to everyone. We have the small council discuss a letter from Jon and Slynt. There's a letter from Fat Walda to Roose that Arya doesn't make sense of. And Tywin relays a snippet from Walder Frey's to Tyrion about the red wedding. Aside from Lysa's letter we barely get any details about those letters, not the way we get details (if only snippets of wordings) for Ramsay's letter to Asha and invitation to Jon about his upcoming wedding. So, when it comes to letters then George has given us the most details ever about letters, twice, of the same author. So, George definitely put effort in giving us 2 comparative samples and the alleged third one differs from it. You are correct: I switched the signature and message. As for the wording, we have enough various situations for Ramsay as Reek and Ramsay as Ramsay to compare with the wording used in the Pink Letter to say that it seems not his style, not his vocabulary. So, there are 2 responses to this: ignore it all and fill in the gaps with explanations to why it's still Ramsay or don't ignore it and look for other candidates. I'm personally fine whatever you choose to do, but there's enough discrepance on several levels for people to not dismiss it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said: The point is that we have 2 letters to compare to as readers, and described in far more detail than any other letter mentioned, read or written in the books with other characters. We have Catelyn translating a letter from Lysa, focusing on coding and the box it was sent in. We have Catelyn relate the message from Robert to Ned about Jon Arryn's death. We have Stannis dictating/composing a letter in aCoK to be sent to everyone. We have the small council discuss a letter from Jon and Slynt. There's a letter from Fat Walda to Roose that Arya doesn't make sense of. And Tywin relays a snippet from Walder Frey's to Tyrion about the red wedding. Aside from Lysa's letter we barely get any details about those letters, not the way we get details (if only snippets of wordings) for Ramsay's letter to Asha and invitation to Jon about his upcoming wedding. So, when it comes to letters then George has given us the most details ever about letters, twice, of the same author. So, George definitely put effort in giving us 2 comparative samples and the alleged third one differs from it. You are correct: I switched the signature and message. As for the wording, we have enough various situations for Ramsay as Reek and Ramsay as Ramsay to compare with the wording used in the Pink Letter to say that it seems not his style, not his vocabulary. So, there are 2 responses to this: ignore it all and fill in the gaps with explanations to why it's still Ramsay or don't ignore it and look for other candidates. I'm personally fine whatever you choose to do, but there's enough discrepance on several levels for people to not dismiss it at all. Examining all other candidates and realizing that none are valid is not ignoring them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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