Lost Melnibonean Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 27 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said: Ok, thanks guys. I respect your positions, and even if we disagree I hope I made a case that shows the idea of Stannis as the author is not as ridiculous as some people think. You did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadakiss Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Thank God there is a good chunk of people in this thread that know its a 0% chance ramsay wrote the letter. not even a doubt, the evidence is beyond obvious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadakiss Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: You did. Tybald wrote it with his pink ink, dictated by stannis with the help of theon. In the winds chapter Theon makes comments like "he wants his reek back" etc. then sure enough thats what the letter has. Jon snow has no idea who the hell reek is so makes no sense for ramsay to say that There is like 100 other things that people have already said in that thread above over and over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 On 11 January 2017 at 9:14 AM, three-eyed monkey said: If who wrote the letter was never meant to be in question then GRRM would have made that very clear by including one reason more of the characteristics of Ramsay's letters, which he had previously set up. No he wouldn't have, because there's no logical reason it would have ever entered into his mind that people would think the letter was a forgery. Because there's no logical reason for anyone to think the letter is a forgery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
three-eyed monkey Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 19 minutes ago, chrisdaw said: No he wouldn't have, because there's no logical reason it would have ever entered into his mind that people would think the letter was a forgery. Because there's no logical reason for anyone to think the letter is a forgery. There is a logical reason it would have entered GRRM's mind, and that is if he was writing the letter as a forgery and leaving clues to that regard, which I believe is the case. GRRM is great at leaving clues in my opinion, even if the great man himself thinks he got in wrong with the books' central mystery. Often mystery writers say that the hardest part of designing a mystery is designing the clues. But my point is that clues are designed and if we examine them we can see that design. GRRM could have given Ramsay any type of hand writing. He made a decision to give him a large spiky hand, and I think it is a good choice because it reflects Ramsay's character in a way. Ramsay's hand is described by both Jon and Asha in what is a purposeful set up of Ramsay's hand writing, because like most set ups it is repeated at least once to strengthen the association in the reader's mind. Spiky Hand equals Ramsay. GRRM could have used that device to clarify that the letter was from Ramsay simply by adding the words "a large spiky hand". But instead he chose to omit the device because he is not trying to clarify that the letter is from Ramsay, he is trying to leave a clue for the reader. The same could be said for the wax. So often we have read of letters sealed with a hard button of wax, so when we read of a smear of wax instead, the association is broken and we know something is wrong, even if we cannot quite put our finger on it sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batbob45 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 It was to tame for Ramsey to write it. He didn't say nasty thing about Selyse and Shireen. The only Bolton that could of wrote it is Roose(he could hide his evil better). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makk Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 On 1/12/2017 at 0:04 PM, chrisdaw said: No he wouldn't have, because there's no logical reason it would have ever entered into his mind that people would think the letter was a forgery. Because there's no logical reason for anyone to think the letter is a forgery. Let me first say I am virtually convinced it was Ramsay. I believe all arguments surrounding the use of language and alternative motivations are fairly weak. Arguments about the handwriting not being Ramsays are terrible, Jon would instantly realise if it wasn't his writing. But I do believe George left this as somewhat of a mystery and a misdirection. It was meant to put the reader into despair thinking that Stannis had lost the battle but also letting the reader hold out hope against hope, despite Ramsay knowing things he couldn't otherwise know, that it was somehow false information. One of the ways this could happen is if someone else wrote the letter which has led to all this debate. However the mystery about the letter IMO is simply that Ramsay himself has been fed false information through Stannis discovering the Karstark treachery and possibly already linking up with the Manderlys. So there was trickery involve from George, just not what so many people are believing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 On 11/01/2017 at 6:19 PM, Jadakiss said: Thank God there is a good chunk of people in this thread that know its a 0% chance ramsay wrote the letter. not even a doubt, the evidence is beyond obvious i do hope you keep the second part of your sig after TWoW is released, it will be nice to read it once in a while. It's brilliant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Makk said: Let me first say I am virtually convinced it was Ramsay. I believe all arguments surrounding the use of language and alternative motivations are fairly weak. Arguments about the handwriting not being Ramsays are terrible, Jon would instantly realise if it wasn't his writing. But I do believe George left this as somewhat of a mystery and a misdirection. It was meant to put the reader into despair thinking that Stannis had lost the battle but also letting the reader hold out hope against hope, despite Ramsay knowing things he couldn't otherwise know, that it was somehow false information. One of the ways this could happen is if someone else wrote the letter which has led to all this debate. However the mystery about the letter IMO is simply that Ramsay himself has been fed false information through Stannis discovering the Karstark treachery and possibly already linking up with the Manderlys. So there was trickery involve from George, just not what so many people are believing. And I'll add that there's another reason for Martin to leave it mysterious and a bit of a head-scratcher: that's what he does! And quite brilliantly, I might add. Otherwise we wouldn't still be talking about it. As to the argument that Martin never intended for the authorship of the PL to be questioned, I think it's quite absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadakiss Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 On 1/31/2017 at 2:00 AM, kissdbyfire said: i do hope you keep the second part of your sig after TWoW is released, it will be nice to read it once in a while. It's brilliant! when grrm had the pink letter chapter he did it for readers to have an initial shocked reaction. Or upset reaction etc. But stacked everything with clues for people with average iq to go back and look at it and to realize the farce. I mean shit he even had Tormund pretty much give it away pretty much stating how anyone can write words There is not ONE thing in that letter that compares with any letter Ramsay has sent in the past. NOTHING matches the character traits he has. He has him saying words he has NEVER said before. And the letter itself is things he has NEVER done before.... For example if he had that many prisoners, there would least be some skin or body part sent in it like he did with Theon. There would be an actual legit Bolton seal, it would have been written as his previous ones have. the list goes on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 13 minutes ago, Jadakiss said: when grrm had the pink letter chapter he did it for readers to have an initial shocked reaction. Or upset reaction etc. But stacked everything with clues for people with average iq to go back and look at it and to realize the farce. I mean shit he even had Tormund pretty much give it away pretty much stating how anyone can write words There is not ONE thing in that letter that compares with any letter Ramsay has sent in the past. NOTHING matches the character traits he has. He has him saying words he has NEVER said before. And the letter itself is things he has NEVER done before.... For example if he had that many prisoners, there would least be some skin or body part sent in it like he did with Theon. There would be an actual legit Bolton seal, it would have been written as his previous ones have. the list goes on Ah, now I know why I really don't see it. My IQ must be well below average! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praetor Xyn Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 I could buy that Ramsay collaborated with someone else to write the letter, but not by himself. Most of the demands are for people Ramsay has no reason to care about, some of which Jon doesn't even have, and most of which Ramsay has no way of knowing even exist, namely Val and Mance's son. Plus it wasn't written in blood, there's no flap of skin attached, and the style is very different from the letter Balon Greyjoy received. To me the letter just seems deliberately designed to make Jon do something stupid and cause chaos at the wall. There's also a lot of language about the wilding submission ceremony which Ramsay does not know about much less have a reason to care about, and the letter is rife with phrasing either used verbatim by or to Mance, and another phrase almost identical ("he burned the man he needed to for all the world to see" / "in a cage for all the north to see"). I can buy Ramsay writing parts of it but I think it more likely Mance wrote it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Winter Rose Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 On 07.01.2017. at 8:24 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said: ..... I am with you. Ramsay wrote the Pink Letter, everything else is fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted February 14, 2017 Author Share Posted February 14, 2017 On 2/4/2017 at 6:22 PM, Praetor Xyn said: I could buy that Ramsay collaborated with someone else to write the letter, but not by himself. Most of the demands are for people Ramsay has no reason to care about, some of which Jon doesn't even have, and most of which Ramsay has no way of knowing even exist, namely Val and Mance's son. Plus it wasn't written in blood, there's no flap of skin attached, and the style is very different from the letter Balon Greyjoy received. To me the letter just seems deliberately designed to make Jon do something stupid and cause chaos at the wall. There's also a lot of language about the wilding submission ceremony which Ramsay does not know about much less have a reason to care about, and the letter is rife with phrasing either used verbatim by or to Mance, and another phrase almost identical ("he burned the man he needed to for all the world to see" / "in a cage for all the north to see"). I can buy Ramsay writing parts of it but I think it more likely Mance wrote it. Ramsay would know that by interrogating Mance or any remaining spear wives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praetor Xyn Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: Ramsay would know that by interrogating Mance or any remaining spear wives. Assuming this is correct it still makes zero sense. Anyone with a brain knows that Jon is honorable to a fault like Ned. There's no way in hell he's going to deliver women and children to a guy famous for torturing people. To me this lends credence to the letter being written deliberately to provoke Jon into doing something stupid, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 I don't think it can be Ramsay because it says that he has "their heads on the walls of Winterfell". Ramsay dosn't behead people he flays them. People from the south nails heads on walls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oberyn1104 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 5 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said: I don't think it can be Ramsay because it says that he has "their heads on the walls of Winterfell". Ramsay dosn't behead people he flays them. People from the south nails heads on walls. He could easily peel their skin and then mount their head.s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Just now, Oberyn1104 said: He could easily peel their skin and then mount their head.s Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oberyn1104 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 It would be such a deviation between the show and the book to have Stannis win and not have a Battle of the Bastards that the letter is true. Beyond that though Stannis's forces are outnumbered and starving. He lost nearly all his horses and mounted soldiers have a great advantage over foot. I also think that the Old Gods don't take kindly to Southron invaders who cut down godswood and worship the Red God. I do think that the letter shows that Ramsay killed Roose. Roose Bolton is a cautious man and it would be unlikely that he would allow such a taunting letter to be sen.t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oberyn1104 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Do you think the Karstarks survived the battle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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