Is Brandon Stark anything more than a poor man's Robert Baratheon?

[Magnar, P.I.]

The Wild Wolf is bland?

Wow, I am well and truly shocked. I always thought Brandon Stark to be a very interesting character, on par with other not-on-page characters such as Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne.

Most compelling is his profound contrast with our dear and dutiful Ned, and the irony that the former was born to rule and the latter to follow. Their nicknames are about as different as possible; the Wild Wolf and the Quiet Wolf. Coming from the Reeds, whose father was one of Ned's besties, we can safely assume these names are not given arbitrarily. We know Brandon was confident and bold where Ned was cautious and reserved. Further, we hear of Brandon's skill with sword and lance, but Ned's combat prowess seems limited to his ability to recruit and lead armies (more impressive but definitely distinct). In fact, we can safely deduce that Ned's no master swordsman; at the Tower of Joy it took him and six of his buddies to kill three kingsguard, and of them only he and Howland survived.

Then there's the whole premarital sex thing. Brandon punched Barbrey's v-card for sure. The official story is that Ned boned some fishwife and knocked her up with Jon, though I think most of us don't put too much stock in that. An alternative theory, one seemingly supported by Ser Barristan's POV near the end of DwD, is that Ned hooked up with Ashara Dayne, knocking her up and causing her to take a quantum leap off her family's tower. More compelling to me, however, is the theory I've seen suggested by other posters that Brandon, not Ned, is the Stark whom Barristan refers to. Brandon was the one to ask Ashara to dance, after all. Asking a beautiful lady to dance with your little bro? Very smooth...

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind if Ned cheated on Cat. Putting love over his honor makes him more human, plus we know from his decision to 'confess' to treason to save Sansa that he's willing to put love first. If Jon turns out to be nothing more than Ned and Wylla's bastard, that ruins nothing for me. In fact the idea that Jon has to be some trueborn son of royalty strikes me as overtly elitist. Does the Prince who was Promised have to be literally born a prince? Boring! Still, because of Ned and Brandon's stark differences to each other (haha, see what I did there?) I think the very fact that Brandon did dishonor himself in that way suggests strongly that Ned did not.

Whoops, tangent! Circling back now...

"Bland" Brandon is closely associated with the past events that primarily drive the ASOIAF plotline:

   -He was at Harrenhal when Rhaegar chose Lyanna as Queen of Love and Beauty and when 'Stark' supposedly disgraced           Ashara Dayne.

   -He fought Littlefinger but spared his life, leaving him to brood and acquire real power. 

   -He hopped on the good foot and did the bad thing with Lady Dustin, who seems pretty important, as newly-introduced                 characters go...

   -When Lyanna was 'kidnapped' he ran off to Kings Landing and got himself gruesomely executed along with his dad, making       Ned a lord and dragging the Starks into a war against the crown.

So, in a way, he started this whole thing, sparked it all, set off the chain of events that we so love to read about. Without this hotheaded ladies' man, we might not be having this debate right now. I think that's pretty interesting!

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 hour ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

Because there is no doubt in the books Robert had more charisma and leadership in one hand than most in their entire body, including Brandon Stark.

I do believe that from what we know so far Robert was the most charismatic of the ASOIAF characters we have seen. However Brandon does seem to have some interesting characteristics but he hadn’t lived long enough or as many interesting things as Robert in order to prove how charismatic he was.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

51 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I do believe that from what we know so far Robert was the most charismatic of the ASOIAF characters we have seen. However Brandon does seem to have some interesting characteristics but he hadn’t lived long enough or as many interesting things as Robert in order to prove how charismatic he was.

For a northman, Brandon was preety charismatic, compared to robert he's always going to lose on that field, like 99% other characters 

[Jon Fossoway]

On 8/1/2017 at 9:30 AM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

You're opinion may change with this.

Awesome essay. It touches a point I harbored when I read about Brandon's defiance; even on first read, and considering his companions, it sounded like a political move done with aggression that turned out horribly wrong, but giving a new sense to this called 'Brandon's foolish temper'.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

23 minutes ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

For a northman, Brandon was preety charismatic, compared to robert he's always going to lose on that field, like 99% other characters 

I agree. I believe that Robert is an example of how someone's life can be destroyed and how it can change him. If Robert's hadn't been destroyed my guess is that he will had been remembered as one of the most well loved and great men in Westerosi history.

[Bernie Mac]

51 minutes ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

For a northman, Brandon was preety charismatic, compared to robert he's always going to lose on that field, like 99% other characters 

I'm not actually sure that is true, the way Cat, Ned and Lady Dustin speak of him and the fact that he had the Arryn heir, a Royce and Mallister (three nobles who owed the heir of the North no fealty) to Kings Landing over an idiotic decision speaks of a high level of charisma. 

From the descriptions I always assumed that Brandon was the alpha of his age group and Robert was the next in line. Robert was likely the better warrior and certainly as charismatic as any other living person after Brandon's death, but was slightly below Brandon in terms of charisma. 

 

While Brandon may never have been king due to his heritage and religion I imagine had he lived he may have been the leader of the Rebellion and we may have seen a slightly different aftermath to the rebels victory. 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

17 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

to Kings Landing over an idiotic decision

Do we know what Brandon did at KL?

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm not actually sure that is true, the way Cat, Ned and Lady Dustin speak of him and the fact that he had the Arryn heir, a Royce and Mallister (three nobles who owed the heir of the North no fealty) to Kings Landing over an idiotic decision speaks of a high level of charisma. 

From the descriptions I always assumed that Brandon was the alpha of his age group and Robert was the next in line. Robert was likely the better warrior and certainly as charismatic as any other living person after Brandon's death, but was slightly below Brandon in terms of charisma. 

 

While Brandon may never have been king due to his heritage and religion I imagine had he lived he may have been the leader of the Rebellion and we may have seen a slightly different aftermath to the rebels victory. 

 

Brandon was charismatic, no doubt about it.

Robert WAS charisma, even less doubt about that, the books tell it more times than we have fingers to count 

The only guy who was at his level was rhaegar, but only because he was the crown prince, if not he would be below aswell... This of course with both alive, Robert became even more legendary after the coronation to levels that songs about him are plenty and folks still fight in his name...

Aegon I and Robert I (the continental dinasty starters) are the top legendary men in the folk stories and songs 

[Queen Historia I Reiss]

On 11.1.2017 at 5:32 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 I forgot one. He went to war and cost countless lives over a woman who turned him down. Also I dsagree with all your points, but we will just have to agree to disagree, because they are opinions. Except the rape one. Cersei says it in POV. Why would she lie to herself?

I'm pretty sure if Lyanna had a choice, she would have chosen Robert over being raped a hundred times by some incest-damaged Madman who thought that he is some kind of Messiah and then that he will birth the Messiah. 

[theblackdragonI]

On 08/01/2017 at 6:21 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Cat's honor was not at stake. Petyr wanting to marry her is not an indication of her having done anything wrong.

Exactly. And we have no reason to think Jaime was not present for the event. Contrast Jaime's thoughts of what he knows happened to Barristan's of what he heard. It's pretty easy to see the difference between the two and realize that Jaime was present when Brandon rode showed up and started shouting treason.

I didn't say anything about it working. I said it was the smart thing to try.  They had no reason to think that Lyanna's life was in danger. Rhaegar's giving her the crown at Harrenhal was taken as a token of his having romantic interest in her. Whether he meant it that way or not, that's clearly what people like Brandon thought. The family is known for both madness and greatness and everyone except Robert Baratheon seems to assign Rhaegar to the greatness category. If Rhaegar had Lyanna there was no reason to fear for her life at his hands.

No, it doesn't mean that at all. There's a big difference between what Ned thinks of his brother more than a decade after his death and what their father would have thought while they were alive. Parents tend to have a very different perspective than younger siblings do. Also people have a tendency to gloss over the bad when remembering deceased loved ones and build them up into something they may or may not have been. Ned may be doing this when thinking of Brandon. But regardless of that, Ned's statements about Brandon knowing what to do and being good at everything are more indicative of Ned's feelings of insecurity and inferiority than of Brandon's being so impressive. 

 

I don't understand your qualms about the duel. He didn't look for the fight, he took off his armour to be equal, fight chivalrously and gave Petry a flesh wound to end it when he was well within his rights to kill him (as many others would have).

He believed his sister was kidnapped by a prince who had publicly proclaimed a romantic interest in her, from a family reknowned for madness and taking what they wanted. Sure it was stupid to go without more support, but its similar to Tywin's reaction to Tyrion's kidnapping. Familial loyalties count for more than loyalty to a demented, despot, maniac who has no interest in the welfare of his subjects.

The fact that Brandon had so much independence, travelling the north and riverlands (probably the Vale as well), had a loyal group of followers made up of the chief families of the North, Riverlands and Vale and seemed to be well liked by the lords of the North point to him being a capable and relied upon heir. Also, Ned was a good lord, but Brandon would have received a much better education similar to Robb and Bran.

[The Agency of Sansa Stark]

On 1/8/2017 at 10:52 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Robert was merely thoughtless. Brandon however was a jerk. He should have laughed at Littlefinger's challenge instead of carving him up, and he should not have needed his fiancee to beg him not to kill the little dork. He had no right to go storming into the Red Keep shouting treason over his sister's alleged kidnapping either. It was Lord Rickard's place to go to the king and diplomatically arrange for some kind of solution to the problem. Brandon should have kept his mouth shut and his butt in the Riverlands. But I suppose it's possible that Lyannagate made for a convenient way to not marry Catelyn. If he wanted out of that deal he certainly succeeded.

Good enough and fierce enough that Catelyn felt it was necessary to beg him not to kill Littlefinger. Granted we don't Petyr's fighting skill level, but as he was fostered with the great Hoster Tully, and fostering included training in arms, one would think the boy had at least some skill. Blind devotion alone doesn't explain his challenge to Brandon. He must have thought he had at least a slim chance of winning.

I completely agree on Brandon as a brother. He was hotheaded, but given that he and Ned were fostered in totally different places they weren't together enough for even Ned to get a good sense of how good a brother he was or wasn't. He did ask Ashara to dance for Ned when Ned couldn't work up the courage. That's a decent thing to do (unless he then attacked or seduced the girl), and he was furious at the idea that Rhaegar had taken Lyanna. Come to think of it, wasn't it Brandon--rather than Robert--who had to be restrained from starting something at Harrenhal when Rhaegar gave the crown to Lyanna?

I don't think we know enough about Brandon to call him "bland."  Stupid maybe, but not necessarily bland. If he'd gotten page time of his own he might turn out to be interesting. Not likable maybe but interesting. 

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

/thread 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

13 hours ago, Queen Historia I Reiss said:

I'm pretty sure if Lyanna had a choice, she would have chosen Robert over being raped a hundred times by some incest-damaged Madman who thought that he is some kind of Messiah and then that he will birth the Messiah. 

Fine, Robert did not start the war. However, he raped a woman named Cersei Lannister. That is wrong, and he is an awful person. We have proof Robert was a rapist, and none that Rhaegar was.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Fine, Robert did not start the war. However, he raped a woman named Cersei Lannister. That is wrong, and he is an awful person. We have proof Robert was a rapist, and none that Rhaegar was.

How do we have proof that Robert had raped Cersei? 

[Boarsbane]

Brandon seemed like less excessive when it came to his pleasures, he took what he wanted but wasn't an irresponsible drunken whoremonger like Robert, could be wrong as it's hard to say with a character that never actually appears.

[Queen Historia I Reiss]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Fine, Robert did not start the war. However, he raped a woman named Cersei Lannister. That is wrong, and he is an awful person. We have proof Robert was a rapist, and none that Rhaegar was.

Counterquestion, is it evil if somebody does something evil to Cersei Lannister? 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

11 minutes ago, Queen Historia I Reiss said:

Counterquestion, is it evil if somebody does something evil to Cersei Lannister? 

Actually the only one who claims that Robert has done something like that is Cersei. A woman who is known for lying even to herself and even she had proved herself wrong.

[Bernie Mac]

40 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Actually the only one who claims that Robert has done something like that is Cersei. A woman who is known for lying even to herself and even she had proved herself wrong.

She actually does not, she makes no claims of rape as their society may not have even viewed what Robert did to his wife as 'rape'. The reader recognises it clearly as rape.

As far as we know she is telling the truth, we have seen Robert hit her and almost kill his 5 year old son. Until GRRM comes out and says that Cersei was lying about what she remembered we can consider the experience as canon. 

 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

She actually does not, she makes no claims of rape as their society may not have even viewed what Robert did to his wife as 'rape'. The reader recognises it clearly as rape.

As far as we know she is telling the truth, we have seen Robert hit her and almost kill his 5 year old son. Until GRRM comes out and says that Cersei was lying about what she remembered we can consider the experience as canon. 

And yet she also has told; 

Quote

In the rare event that Rob leaves his whores for long enough to stumble drunk into my bed, I finish him off in other ways. In the morning he doesn’t remember…

The point is that Cersei is an unreliable PoV who has already lied even to herself hence there is no reason why she should be trusted especially when no one seems to point on Robert being like that. Heck even Barri the Biased said that Robert was a good man.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

How do we have proof that Robert had raped Cersei? 

Other than her POV thoughts, which are admittedly not always rational or reliable.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

16 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

I don't understand your qualms about the duel. He didn't look for the fight, he took off his armour to be equal, fight chivalrously and gave Petry a flesh wound to end it when he was well within his rights to kill him (as many others would have).

He believed his sister was kidnapped by a prince who had publicly proclaimed a romantic interest in her, from a family reknowned for madness and taking what they wanted. Sure it was stupid to go without more support, but its similar to Tywin's reaction to Tyrion's kidnapping. Familial loyalties count for more than loyalty to a demented, despot, maniac who has no interest in the welfare of his subjects.

The fact that Brandon had so much independence, travelling the north and riverlands (probably the Vale as well), had a loyal group of followers made up of the chief families of the North, Riverlands and Vale and seemed to be well liked by the lords of the North point to him being a capable and relied upon heir. Also, Ned was a good lord, but Brandon would have received a much better education similar to Robb and Bran.

Brandon had the superior position by far. He was years older, the betrothal was agreed to by both families. Catelyn wanted him not Littlefinger. All he had to do was laugh and inform Hoster of what his twerpy little underage ward was up to. Taking the challenge seriously was unnecessary and a wiser man would have been able to see that. Brandon is exactly the "gallant fool" that Hoster called him.

You cannot compare Tywin to Brandon. Tywin is the head of his house and commander of substantial men. Brandon on the other hand is a hot-headed heir with no particular right to do anything other than follow his father's orders. Tywin's kid was definitely and verifiably taken prisoner by a family on equal footing. Brandon's sister was allegedly kidnapped by the ruling family. Tywin thought Jaime was an idiot for accosting Ned in the street, killing his men, and injuring him. Even after Ned's saying that Cersei's children/Tywin's grandchildren had no right to the throne, Tywin STILL wouldn't have killed him. Brandon was totally okay with killing the guy he was told took his sister. Tywin is no paragon but he is at least capable of being rational under less than ideal circumstances.

Loyalty to the throne has no place in this argument. The logical thing for Brandon to do over being told his sister had been abducted by the prince was to go directly to his father, and then let him handle. It's not about lack of back-up. He took a posse with him, and got them and their fathers all executed. It's about lack of thought at all. It was Rickard Stark's place to go to the king and demand on what grounds his daughter was taken and find a way to get her back. It was by no means Brandon's right or responsibility to do so. And I guarantee Rickard would have been smarter than to ride into the Red Keep screaming for Rhaegar's death.

Notice: Lyanna's betrothed, a man not known for deep thinking or any kind of restraint, did NOT go to the Red Keep and demand Rhaegar fight him. Robert, with all his many and serious faults, apparently understood things a lot better than Brandon did. Robert isn't even mentioned in all of this until after Rickard and the fathers of Brandon's buddies are summoned, go to court, and are killed. At some point, he would have been informed of what was going on. Maybe he wanted to go do something and Jon Arryn and Ned stopped him, but in that case he was at least willing to consult and listen to someone else. We have no evidence of Brandon even thinking of talking to someone about this. The best chance of that would have been Hoster Tully, since Brandon was at Riverrun when he heard what supposedly happened. If Brandon sought Hoster's advice, it's clear from Hoster's own words that said advice was ignored. 

The family's being known for madness is a weak argument. The entire family was not known for it. The text supports this in that supposedly half of Targaryens are mad, and the other half are great. The text further supports the idea that Rhaegar's coin came down on the "great" side. IF Rhaegar had been known or supposed to be mad, that would put Brandon's actions in a better (but still stupid) light. Let's say Rhaegar was crazy too. Would one deliberately threaten and antagonize a crazy person who already has one's sister? Seems to me that would put Lyanna in MORE danger, not less.  But Rhaegar wasn't crazy, so there was no reason to go overboard on fear for the girl. On the other hand, Aerys WAS known to be crazy. So going to his home and demanding his son and heir's death was about the stupidest thing anybody could have done at that point. 

What made Brandon think he'd find Rhaegar in King's Landing anyway? Could it be he was misinformed? Could it be that he was acting on incomplete and unconfirmed information because he didn't bother to check the facts. Could it be, as has been suggested repeatedly amongst the readership, that he got the information from the same ambitious and obnoxious kid who challenged him to a duel over a girl who clearly didn't want the kid in the first place? Does it even matter who the source was when clearly either the message was off, or Brandon's idea of where he'd find Lyanna was wrong? Had he stopped to think (which he clearly did not) he might have thought as far as the reasonable idea that Rhaegar would NOT take a potential mistress home to mom and dad's place. 

If he's not supremely stupid, Brandon is at least impetuous and spontaneous enough that those defects make him as bad supreme stupidity would.

Brandon's being allowed to go around and having a group of friends doesn't indicate anything. Edmure has a group of friends. Any man/heir in Westeros who is of legal age and has a group of friends is going to go where he pleases until he does something so monumentally stupid that Lord Dad restricts his privileges (which for Brandon ended with Lord Dad and himself dead). Lyanna was apparently allowed to travel around pretty freely and in a medieval society it is extremely unlikely her father relied upon her for anything other than being obedient and marrying the man he chose for her. 

Brandon was educated by Lord Ryswell, and by Lord Rickard; Rickard admittedly being a good source Ryswell we don't know. Ned was educated by Jon Arryn, Lord Paramount of the Vale and Warden of the East. And you think Ned's education was somehow lacking? I wouldn't necessarily say it was better but it would have been at least on par with Brandon's. Rickard personally chose the man who would raise his second son from page-age on, knowing full well as do ALL lords in a feudal society that anything could happen to his heir and "the spare" might end up ruling. Unless you think Rickard was a total moron, who never considered that his heir might die before taking over, in which case Ned was very lucky and ended up getting a way better mentor than Brandon did.