Is Brandon Stark anything more than a poor man's Robert Baratheon?

[Bernie Mac]

45 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

And yet she also has told; 

The point is that Cersei is an unreliable PoV who has already lied even to herself hence there is no reason why she should be trusted especially when no one seems to point on Robert being like that. Heck even Barri the Biased said that Robert was a good man.

When has she done something like that before? Invent a memory that never took place?

If there is actual evidence of her inventing other memories? And I am not talking about Cersei being wrong but actually inventing things that never took place?

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

When has she done something like that before? Invent a memory that never took place?

Not inventing something, lying about something. She did that when she was thinking about Melara's death.  After all I have already quoted her when she had already proved that she was lying and she does see Robert among the people who she has hurt.

[Bernie Mac]

2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Not inventing something, lying about something. She did that when she was thinking about Melara's death.  After all I have already quoted her when she had already proved that she was lying.

 

Lying about Melara? In what way? And how is this proven as a lie?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

Lying about Melara? In what way? And how is this proven as a lie?

She said that Melara simply felt in the well, when in reality she killed her. That along with her quote about how she treated Robert when he came to her bed and along many other things point to her being an unreliable PoV. Heck she even see Robert as one of the people she has hurt during her Walk of atonement.

[Queen Historia I Reiss]

Back again to some offtopic I forgot to adress in my former post:

Why do people all assume that there was some romance between Rhaegar and Lyanna, when everything we know about him would rather indicate that the true Rhaegar was simply an insanely beautiful and insanely charismatic lunatic who thought of himself as some kind of savior and then as a father of the savior and therefore kidnapped a girl he thought was connected to his prophecies and raped her? 

[Bernie Mac]

2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

She said that Melara simply felt in the well, when in reality she killed her. That along with her quote about how she treated Robert when he came to her bed and along many other things point to her being an unreliable PoV. Heck she even see Robert as one of the people she has hurt during her Walk of atonement.

Where is the evidence that she killed her? 

Is this stated by GRRM, Cersei or some other character?

And she had Robert murdered and cuckolded him for almost two decades, why would she not see Robert as one of the people she hurt? Though can you quote her thoughts on Robert during the Walk of Atonement as I don't recall it. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

Where is the evidence that she killed her? 

You really don't know how she killed her?

 

[Bernie Mac]

3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

You really don't know how she killed her?

 

Honestly I don't. Can you show in the books where she killed her?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

9 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Honestly I don't. Can you show in the books where she killed her?

Maegi:

Quote

 Not Jaime, nor any other man, Worms will have your maidenhead. Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close.

As for Melara's end:

Quote

"This maegi made certain prophecies. I laughed at them at first, but . . . she foretold the death of one of my bedmaids. At the time she made the prophecy, the girl was one-and-ten, healthy as a little horse and safe within the Rock. Yet she soon fell down a well and drowned."

But also

Quote

The words came tumbling out of her. She could still hear Melara Hetherspoon insisting that if they never spoke about the prophecies, they would not come true. She was not so silent in the well, though. She screamed and shouted.

During her walk along with other people she has wronged  Cersei sees:

Quote

A young girl sat beneath a fountain, drenched in spray, and stared at her with Melara Hetherspoon’s accusing eyes.

Why Melara should had accusing eyes if Cersei wasn't guilty for something?

[Bernie Mac]

6 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Maegi:

As for Melara's end:

But also

During her walk along with other people she has wronged  Cersei sees:

Why Melara should had accusing eyes if Cersei wasn't guilty for something?

Cersei was the one who suggested the visit to the Maegi, was she not? Melara would never have fell and drowned if it was not for Cersei.  Perhaps Cersei did not go to get help but there is no evidence that she pushed her or that her cause of death was not through drowning. 

And is really the best evidence that Cersei's thoughts are not to trusted? I was hoping for something a little more substantial or even more examples of her lying in her thoughts?

 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Cersei was the one who suggested the visit to the Maegi, was she not?

So?

6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Melara would never have fell and drowned if it was not for Cersei.

True. She wouldn't had died if Cersei hadn't threw her in the well.

[Bernie Mac]

8 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

So?

True. She wouldn't had died if Cersei hadn't threw her in the well.

There is no evidence, as far as I know, that she threw her in the well. You have failed to produce any. 

Cersie can have felt guilt for suggesting the trip, the trip that conformed that Melara would die that day or even for not going for help to try and save Melara. There is zero evidence that she pushed her in the well, you have came up that yourself 

A theory that she may have lied is not evidence that she did. So far you have provided no evidence that she has previously lied in her thoughts. So we have little reason to believe that she was lying to herself about what Robert did to her. 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

There is no evidence, as far as I know, that she threw in the well. You have failed to produce any. 

Cersie can have felt guilt for suggesting the trip, the trip that conformed that Melara would die that day or even for not going for help to try and save Melara. There is zero evidence that she pushed her in in the well, you have came up that yourself 

A theory that she may have lied is not evidence that she did. So far you have provided no evidence that she has previously lied in her thoughts. So we have little reason to believe that she was lying to herself about what Robert did to her. 

I have given the text proof of how she killed her both from prophecy and from Cersei's own pov. It's your choice if you wish to not see it but you cannot say that there is no proof. Maybe you would be interested in discussing how she killed her in a thread of its own maybe you want to start a new thread about it.

[devilish]

On 20/01/2017 at 7:19 PM, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

Well the Stormlands had a preety gigantic tie to the IT compared to the north, so it's normal lords were on the fence...

Because there is no doubt in the books Robert had more charisma and leadership in one hand than most in their entire body, including Brandon Stark.

My post relate on how Brandon would have probably seen it. The Starks brought more troops to the war, they have a more prestigous history etc. Their family line is related to kings not bastards

Regarding charisma well, women actually wanted to be with Brandon and kept regretting losing him for many many years. His brothers remembered him dearly. Robert wasn't liked by his own brother and the only women Robert kept in his sack was the ones he paid for. FFS his girlfriend ran with Rhaegar and his wife preferred sleeping with her own brother the security person then with him. I am aware about what his whipping boy said but from a non biased opinion (ie including that of Robert himself) what kept the kingdom united was fear not  leadership. Robert's charisma started and ended with his warhammer

 

 

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

5 hours ago, devilish said:

My post relate on how Brandon would have probably seen it. The Starks brought more troops to the war, they have a more prestigous history etc. Their family line is related to kings not bastards

Regarding charisma well, women actually wanted to be with Brandon and kept regretting losing him for many many years. His brothers remembered him dearly. Robert wasn't liked by his own brother and the only women Robert kept in his sack was the ones he paid for. FFS his girlfriend ran with Rhaegar and his wife preferred sleeping with her own brother the security person then with him. I am aware about what his whipping boy said but from a non biased opinion (ie including that of Robert himself) what kept the kingdom united was fear not  leadership. Robert's charisma started and ended with his warhammer

 

 

oh i agree brandon was more valuable to the IT than robert at harrenhall time devilish... and they did bring more troops to the trident (not the war though), war wich robert was the guy who fought the most (gulltown;summerhall:ashford;bells;trident), compared to what brandon would fight (the same as ned)

- robert has blood of old valyria (bastard or no it's dragon blood  wich became a mute basis because of the legitimized blood of rhaelle) and the Storm Kings (who precede the Starks because Durran was older than Bran, and have more/equal prestigious history, like conquering half the south, wich was vastly more populated and rich than the north)

- stannis or cersei are hardly a reason for robert to lose his title of most charismatic character in asoiaf (everyone is hated by 5 to 10 people), nobody is liked 100%, he was 98% at face value, compared to the rest who were below 90% at best...

- we denying the amount of book mentions of robert's unrivaled charismatic power is like denying tyrion is a dwarf, the guy is the most charismatic character written in the series, even when he changed from horned god to jolly fatso, it's painfully hammered to us, pun intended

[Bernie Mac]

6 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I have given the text proof of how she killed her both from prophecy and from Cersei's own pov. It's your choice if you wish to not see it but you cannot say that there is no proof. Maybe you would be interested in discussing how she killed her in a thread of its own maybe you want to start a new thread about it.

You actually have not given proof, you have given a theory, a theory that is not proven in the books. I did not bring up Cersei in this thread, I was merely curious about your claims of evidence which you have failed to produce. 

Now in future books it may be proven that Cersei invented her story about what Robert did (an event Cersei herself never calls rape) but until that time that event remains canon. 

By our standards Robert raped his wife. By our standards he also raped Barra. By Westeros' standards it is more complicated and that is the world Robert lives in. Getting offended because a fictional character you like did something that you think taints him is pointless. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

You actually have not given proof, you have given a theory, a theory that is not proven in the books. I did not bring up Cersei in this thread, I was merely curious about your claims of evidence which you have failed to produce. 

Now in future books it may be proven that Cersei invented her story about what Robert did (an event Cersei herself never calls rape) but until that time that event remains canon. 

By our standards Robert raped his wife. By our standards he also raped Barra. By Westeros' standards it is more complicated and that is the world Robert lives in. Getting offended because a fictional character you like did something that you think taints him is pointless. 

Who do you think hired the assassin to kill Bran?

[Boarsbane]

3 hours ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

oh i agree brandon was more valuable to the IT than robert at harrenhall time devilish... and they did bring more troops to the trident (not the war though), war wich robert was the guy who fought the most (gulltown;summerhall:ashford;bells;trident), compared to what brandon would fight (the same as ned)

- robert has blood of old valyria (bastard or no it's dragon blood  wich became a mute basis because of the legitimized blood of rhaelle) and the Storm Kings (who precede the Starks because Durran was older than Bran, and have more/equal prestigious history, like conquering half the south, wich was vastly more populated and rich than the north)

- stannis or cersei are hardly a reason for robert to lose his title of most charismatic character in asoiaf (everyone is hated by 5 to 10 people), nobody is liked 100%, he was 98% at face value, compared to the rest who were below 90% at best...

- we denying the amount of book mentions of robert's unrivaled charismatic power is like denying tyrion is a dwarf, the guy is the most charismatic character written in the series, even when he changed from horned god to jolly fatso, it's painfully hammered to us, pun intended

Robert may have once inspired devotion through his charisma but by the time we meet him that's gone. His own brothers can't crown themselves quick enough after he's dead, his wife is the one who had him killed, his Kingsguard are at best indifferent towards him and one is cuckolding him, no one but Tywin is rushing to defend his supposed heirs, and he's only doing it cause they are his grandchildren. That is the devotion Robert inspired.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

6 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

Robert may have once inspired devotion through his charisma but by the time we meet him that's gone. His own brothers can't crown themselves quick enough after he's dead, his wife is the one who had him killed, his Kingsguard are at best indifferent towards him and one is cuckolding him, no one but Tywin is rushing to defend his supposed heirs, and he's only doing it cause they are his grandchildren. That is the devotion Robert inspired.

It's like i said boarsbane, charisma is measured at face value, family or close people know too much about you to be affected by your charisma, if close people count hardly anyone is charismatic...

King Robert after the greyjoy rebellion was in his charismatic peak, a gigantic one. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You actually have not given proof, you have given a theory, a theory that is not proven in the books. I did not bring up Cersei in this thread, I was merely curious about your claims of evidence which you have failed to produce. 

Now in future books it may be proven that Cersei invented her story about what Robert did (an event Cersei herself never calls rape) but until that time that event remains canon. 

By our standards Robert raped his wife. By our standards he also raped Barra. By Westeros' standards it is more complicated and that is the world Robert lives in. Getting offended because a fictional character you like did something that you think taints him is pointless. 

I see that text  proofs are not proofs for you, even when Cersei herself has told

Quote

In the rare event that Rob leaves his whores for long enough to stumble drunk into my bed, I finish him off in other ways. In the morning he doesn’t remember…

Good luck with not believing in text proofs in the forums. Also if Robert had done something like that how no one of his KG haven't noticed it? Or if he had Barri would still had called him a good man and Jaime would had done nothing? 

9 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Who do you think hired the assassin to kill Bran?

If Cersei was Melara's death for them going to Maegi then Bran's assassin was Ned. After all if he had forced Bran not to climb he would had never found Cersei and Jaime, he wouldn't had been thrown off the window and he wouldn't had been comatosed.