Tyrions Defense

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

After Cat took Tyrion, why didn't he point out the fact that it makes no sense for him to hire an assassin and then head north when he would have to cross by winterfell after the assassination? I mean, Bran wasn't going to be poisoned or something clever, so he would have been obviously murdered and despite the fact that Cat knows Tyrion is book smart she assumes he would be so dumb as to hire a murderer, go North, then stop by at Winterfell on his way home for a nice bed? Tyrion doesn't make any real defense for himself and Cat never pushes the matter. Is this just a plot-push by GRRM or am I missing something?

Cat may not know he stopped at Winterfell, but that could be easily checked.

[Stiles_of_the_Vale]

My understanding is that she made the mistake of trusting Littlefinger's word. Tyrion made several decent points, including he's not an idiot that would use his own dagger. But since Lysa had already pointed a finger at the Lannisters for murdering Jon Arryn, Cat was already poisoned against them. She trusted her childhood family over the word of Tyrion and to some degree logic. She knew LF had loved her as a child and decided he would not lie to her, even though it was years later and they had parted on no good terms. We all know the flaw in that logic.

[John Suburbs]

Rather than just meekly go along with Cat and her posse, Tyrion should also have insisted on being brought straight to King's Landing. He is the son of a high lord, accused of a capital crime, so the only person who should sit in judgement of him is the king, not the sister of his accuser.

But an even bigger puzzle is that if Cat needed to be so discrete in her visit to Ned in KL and so swift in her journey that she needed to make the trip by sea southward, why choose the King's Road on the return? Was poor Ser Rodrik's green guts that much more important than the secrecy of the mission?

 

 

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

Only a true narcissist would believe that because someone had a crush on you two decades ago that it means you can trust them.

[Lifestream]

3 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

Only a true narcissist would believe that because someone had a crush on you two decades ago that it means you can trust them.

Many people underestimate Littefinger, and he was a childhood friend not just someone who had a crush on Cat. I mean many people already have been in the same position as Cat (for example Ned0, but Cat had no more reason to believe he didn't mean any harm to her because they'd known each other since childhood, but they hadn't kept much contact. If I'm not wrong Cat also misjudged Lysa and thought she would support her and Lysa was her sister. She lacked crucial information about both of them.

[Toastedzergling]

The whole Tyrion's dagger plot has quite a few flaws on GRRM's part I think.

Why did Littlefinger point a false finger at Tyrion in front of Varys? It's a huge gamble, Varys did not want the Starks and Lannisters go to war too fast. He may know Littlefinger was lying. There was no guarantee Tyrion would be seized on the road south and once Tyrion reached King's Landing Littlefinger will be in trouble.

Why didn't Tyrion retaliate against Littlefinger when he had the power? Littlefinger almost got Tyrion killed. He is too useful for sure, still, it's weird Tyrion just ignored him.

The whole thing that Joffery stole Robert's dagger and gave it to some catspaw to kill Bran is hard to believe. Why would anybody need a super dagger to kill an unconscious boy?

In the show DB&DB fixed the plot a bit and made it more plausible. If I remember it correctly, the dagger is indeed Tyrion's and Tyrion indeed won it from Littlefinger, Joffery hate Tyrion because Tyrion slapped him for ignorance on Bran's condition and stole the dagger from Tyrion. It made better sense.

 

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

On 09/01/2017 at 0:52 AM, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

Tyrion doesn't make any real defense for himself and Cat never pushes the matter.

Tyrion makes some very convincing arguments that appear to make Cat begin to at least doubt the story, but she ultimately trusts Littlefinger over Tyrion. Cat's already had her mind poisoned against the Lannisters by LF/Lysa's letter, and they were hardly the most trustworthy people to begin with. LF on the other hand is a childhood friend, who most people seem to like.

On 09/01/2017 at 0:52 AM, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

After Cat took Tyrion, why didn't he point out the fact that it makes no sense for him to hire an assassin and then head north when he would have to cross by winterfell after the assassination?

That may have been one of the many arguments Tyrion could have used, but hardly the strongest, and in Cat's state of mind, I doubt such an argument would have clinched it. 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

I think there's also a little bit of Tyrion's personality and habit of shooting his mouth off that can be very unhelpful to himself.  He's noted several times that his tongue will get him in trouble and it does.  That can be so off-putting to other characters, it can create a counterweight to his logical arguments.  It's way more complicated than that of course.  He's also up against some extreme ableist beliefs about appearances relating to character.  His cutting wit is largely a defense mechanism against that, but unfortunately, it cuts both ways for him. 

[Greywater-Watch]

2 hours ago, Toastedzergling said:

The whole Tyrion's dagger plot has quite a few flaws on GRRM's part I think.

Why did Littlefinger point a false finger at Tyrion in front of Varys? It's a huge gamble, Varys did not want the Starks and Lannisters go to war too fast. He may know Littlefinger was lying. There was no guarantee Tyrion would be seized on the road south and once Tyrion reached King's Landing Littlefinger will be in trouble.

Why didn't Tyrion retaliate against Littlefinger when he had the power? Littlefinger almost got Tyrion killed. He is too useful for sure, still, it's weird Tyrion just ignored him.

The whole thing that Joffery stole Robert's dagger and gave it to some catspaw to kill Bran is hard to believe. Why would anybody need a super dagger to kill an unconscious boy?

In the show DB&DB fixed the plot a bit and made it more plausible. If I remember it correctly, the dagger is indeed Tyrion's and Tyrion indeed won it from Littlefinger, Joffery hate Tyrion because Tyrion slapped him for ignorance on Bran's condition and stole the dagger from Tyrion. It made better sense.

 

 

I do not see it flawed by GRRM in the points you mentioned.

• Littlefinger is not connected to Vary's plotting with Mopatis. Varys obviously did not know that Littlefinger was not telling the truth about the dagger. And Littlefinger is a gambler.
• Tyrion thought about paying pack to Littlefinger during his time as Hand of the King.
• Because Joffrey is stupid.
• Robert Baratheon won the dagger from Littlefinger in the book. For the show I am not sure.

[Chris Mormont]

I am sure Tyrion argued his innocence until his throat was sore, but Cat wouldn't believe him.  I think she started having doubts, but by that time, they were already too far gone.  She assumed there would eventually be a fair trial and an opportunity for the truth to come out, she did not know Lyssa would take control like she did and accuse Tyrion of killing Jon Arryn.

I will keep insisting that Littlefinger was the one to send the assassin, I do not think it was Joff.  Why would Joff give some guy a VS dagger to put Bran out of his misery. The expensive dagger is used to point a finger at the Lannisters.  The easiest and safest way to kill Bran is a pillow.  The assassin says no one was supposed to be there, as if he was given the plan to start the fire and draw attention away from Bran.  Joff wouldn't bother making a plan, in fact Joff wouldn't expend any energy on the matter at all.

[Maxxine]

As others have said, I don't think it would've made a difference. Every Stark of note (Robb, Ned, & Cat) had made up their mind about the Lannisters, the dagger, & Jon Arryn's death as soon as Lysa sent that letter or found out about the letter in Robb's case. So, they were working backwards from the jump. The Lannisters did it so let's investigate to find the proof instead of let's investigate so we can find proof to figure out who did it. And when you work backwards like that you're going to try you hardest not to consider things that prove your conclusion wrong. Tyrion's best reason was the one he had given. He's smart enough to know (& Cat knows he s smart enough) to not use his own dagger to assasinate someone. Iirc Cat has severe doubts about his guilt by the end of her time at the Eyrie.

[UnFit Finlay]

5 hours ago, Toastedzergling said:

The whole Tyrion's dagger plot has quite a few flaws on GRRM's part I think.

Why did Littlefinger point a false finger at Tyrion in front of Varys? It's a huge gamble, Varys did not want the Starks and Lannisters go to war too fast. He may know Littlefinger was lying. There was no guarantee Tyrion would be seized on the road south and once Tyrion reached King's Landing Littlefinger will be in trouble.

Why didn't Tyrion retaliate against Littlefinger when he had the power? Littlefinger almost got Tyrion killed. He is too useful for sure, still, it's weird Tyrion just ignored him.

As noted above, Tyrion did think about punishing Littlefinger when he was Hand of the King but felt that he was too well protected as Master of Coin, especially with the war on. He also had little proof. Just Catelyn's word really, which really wouldn't carry much weight with Tywin.

I agree that lying in front of Varys was pretty strange. I just re-read AGOT and that some of their interactions made me wonder if GRRM was originally intending for Littlefinger and Varys to be working together.

24 minutes ago, Chris Mormont said:

I will keep insisting that Littlefinger was the one to send the assassin, I do not think it was Joff.  Why would Joff give some guy a VS dagger to put Bran out of his misery. The expensive dagger is used to point a finger at the Lannisters.  The easiest and safest way to kill Bran is a pillow.  The assassin says no one was supposed to be there, as if he was given the plan to start the fire and draw attention away from Bran.  Joff wouldn't bother making a plan, in fact Joff wouldn't expend any energy on the matter at all.

Littlefinger was in King's Landing at this point wasn't he? I just don't see how he could've found out about Bran, managed to hire and arm the catspaw and get him to Winterfell in that time frame. I mean, he surely wasn't trusting Ravens was he?

For me, Joff makes perfect sense. Robert was an absentee Dad but Joff clearly held him in some esteem (look at how he talked about him to Tywin?) Robert talked about putting Bran out of his misery when he was drunk. Joff heard him and decided to do it. The fact that it was so sloppily done seems to point more towards Joffrey as well. I mean, he wasn't smart was he?

[Rise]

16 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

 

For me, Joff makes perfect sense. Robert was an absentee Dad but Joff clearly held him in some esteem (look at how he talked about him to Tywin?) Robert talked about putting Bran out of his misery when he was drunk. Joff heard him and decided to do it. The fact that it was so sloppily done seems to point more towards Joffrey as well. I mean, he wasn't smart was he?

And catspaw most likely wasn't proffesional assassin, littlefinger would most likely hire better assassin.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

Just now, UnFit Finlay said:

The fact that it was so sloppily done seems to point more towards Joffrey as well. I mean, he wasn't smart was he?

Juvenile crimes tend to be sloppy and impulsive.  He probably picked the Valyrian dagger because he thought it looked cool, so yeah he isn't smart.  I think he also had a conversation in the training yard with the Hound that Tyrion was present for.  The Hound says something like "He's a long time dying.  I wish he would be quicker about it."  Joffrey was initially annoyed with the wolf howling all night and the Hound offers to put the creature down.  Being a Hound fanboy, this probably also gave Joffrey the twisted idea that it would be a cool thing to put Bran down.  Maybe even brag about it later once they are away from Winterfell, but he's too cowardly to do the act himself.  He usually utilizes a third party like his kingsguard to inflict harm while he watches, which would be a natural extension of a catspaw.  This is likely also because he's so inept with a blade as well as cowardly, he cannot allow himself to be exposed as such if his target happens to fight back.                  

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

11 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

As noted above, Tyrion did think about punishing Littlefinger when he was Hand of the King but felt that he was too well protected as Master of Coin, especially with the war on. He also had little proof. Just Catelyn's word really, which really wouldn't carry much weight with Tywin.

I agree that lying in front of Varys was pretty strange. I just re-read AGOT and that some of their interactions made me wonder if GRRM was originally intending for Littlefinger and Varys to be working together.

Littlefinger was in King's Landing at this point wasn't he? I just don't see how he could've found out about Bran, managed to hire and arm the catspaw and get him to Winterfell in that time frame. I mean, he surely wasn't trusting Ravens was he?

For me, Joff makes perfect sense. Robert was an absentee Dad but Joff clearly held him in some esteem (look at how he talked about him to Tywin?) Robert talked about putting Bran out of his misery when he was drunk. Joff heard him and decided to do it. The fact that it was so sloppily done seems to point more towards Joffrey as well. I mean, he wasn't smart was he?

I think a big reason why Tyrion didn't punish LF is because he was still working his mind around the situation/cause/motivation of it all. He isn't someone to rush a conclusion/punishment, especially when it clearly has several layers of cause.

That is interesting about Varys/LF, I have never considered it but will have to keep an eye on it in my next read.

The timeline with LF held me back for a while, but a while back I looked at the timeline and it changed my mind. Naturally I don't have the books with me so please feel free to correct this:

-Bran falls

-The royal party stays in WF longer because of this (a month or maybe a fortnight, I don't remember but I know Cat dotting over Bran prevented Jon from saying his goodbye until the last possible minute)

-The royal procession heads home (slowly)

- Sometime later, and more than just a day or two bc a rider could have caught up to Ned, the worst assassin ever makes his move

- Cat sails for KL. I assume from White harbor? Anyone know? She definitely thinks she can beat Ned there, and it's probably a couple days ride from WF to whatever boat she took.

- Cat gets to KL right around the same time as Ned.

 

I think that the time from the fall to the time of the assassination attempt was probably about the same or a few days less than the time it takes Cat to get to KL. So theoretically LF could have gotten a raven and then sent the throatless man to WF.

However, I am not convinced it wasn't Joff who (sort of) organized it. My main thinking with the OP was that Tyrion had expected Cat to greet him at WF on his way south and that I was surprised he never used this argument in the book. The points he does make do start to make Cat waver, and I think he notices that, so why not try to capitalize on it? I realize Cat didn't have a lot of time to create her plan for the abduction, but she had time on the road to talk with Tyrion and I feel like GRRM doesn't give us enough of that time.

Back to LF/Joff. I think it is safe to assume that whoever hired the assassin wanted Bran dead. They couldn't have possibly planned for a protective dire wolf pup at this point. If someone (LF) wanted it to be staged to look like someone specific orchestrated it then that person would have needed the assassin to leave the knife back (or use a completely different plan). There is little chance that a two-bit assassin such as we see would ditch a knife worth more than anything he has ever seen. A much more professional assassin would be needed. And a pro probably pulls this off, even with Cat and a young wolf in the building. So I don't think a deliberately botched attempt should be considered.

I would say that this means the person behind this, then, meant for Bran to die of a slit throat in an obvious murder. But I think the assassin drew his knife after Cat sees him, so he came in the room not carrying it and may have intended to use a pillow. That would have been effective in hiding any traces of foul play (and the knife would have been an easy form of payment). There is literally no reason I can think of that would make LF want Bran to die of 'natural causes'. Joff might though, because he would think it was giving mercy (in his bat-S crazy head).

If the assassin used the knife, then maybe LF was behind it because it would (if he knows of Lysas letter) still bring suspicion on the Lannisters. However, a successful attempt may have resulted in a confrontation between the Starks and Lannisters in front of Robert with Cat still in KL. Does anyone think LF wants Cat dead? So I still lean toward the idiot prince.

I feel like I'm running in circles and getting away from Tyrion at the same time.

TLDR: I am pretty sure Joff was behind the assassination attempt and I wish we had more in the books showing Tyrion defending himself to Cat.

 

[Raisin' Bran]

7 hours ago, Toastedzergling said:

The whole Tyrion's dagger plot has quite a few flaws on GRRM's part I think.

Why did Littlefinger point a false finger at Tyrion in front of Varys? It's a huge gamble, Varys did not want the Starks and Lannisters go to war too fast. He may know Littlefinger was lying. There was no guarantee Tyrion would be seized on the road south and once Tyrion reached King's Landing Littlefinger will be in trouble.

The scene with Catelyn, Petyr, and Varys does not lead me to think that it was a huge gamble. Petyr knows that Varys is not usually one to contradict a story in public, that is not what spiders do.

Petyr has also said that he thrives on chaos. Even if Varys had said something, it is likely that Catelyn would still take the word of Petyr over the spider's, but at the very worst, he would have just created more chaos in Cat's mind.

Additionally, Varys is still planning on a conflict between Lannister and Stark to pave the way for a Targaryen restoration. Pointing out that the knife was in fact not Tyrion's and having Catelyn believe him, would run the risk of working against that goal and stabilizing the tensions between the two great houses to where there might never be a war. Petyr may or may not know of Varys' plan, but it is a reason for Vary's to not say anything.

[Protagoras]

Defense is pretty useless in this case. Catelyn has illegally taken control of Tyrion and refuse to give him proper justice. They have already decided guilt and were only looking for proof, not argument against.

This is a situation best solved by violence (unless Robert make a strong statement about the illegality of the action and make it clear that Catelyn will be hurt in an exact similar way Tyrion is - yeah, I can´t see him do that nor could Tywin), like the raiding Tywin did. Catelyn need to understand that a provocation of this magnitude is an excellent casis belli for war and I am 100% for letting innocents suffer as a response to a suffered injustice. Injustice should be met with injustice. Rules mean nothing if the other side doesn´t follow it.

Of course, Catelyn has a good reason to the catnap, which places the whole situation - the catnap, the raids etc as the fault of Lillefinger, due to deterministic logic.

[John Suburbs]

7 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Littlefinger was in King's Landing at this point wasn't he? I just don't see how he could've found out about Bran, managed to hire and arm the catspaw and get him to Winterfell in that time frame. I mean, he surely wasn't trusting Ravens was he?

For me, Joff makes perfect sense. Robert was an absentee Dad but Joff clearly held him in some esteem (look at how he talked about him to Tywin?) Robert talked about putting Bran out of his misery when he was drunk. Joff heard him and decided to do it. The fact that it was so sloppily done seems to point more towards Joffrey as well. I mean, he wasn't smart was he?

LF doesn't need to know about Bran or anything else happening in Winterfell to be the brains behind the catspaw.

Before the royal party left KL, Littlefinger could have convinced Joffrey that Ned becoming Hotk would be a very bad thing for House Lannister -- something that would be reinforced if he overheard Cersie and Jaime discussing it. LF could also imply that the only thing that would prevent Ned from taking the job would be a significant family tragedy -- like the death of one of his children. When Bran fell, it would appear to Joffrey that the issue had resolved itself, but when Ned decides to come south anyway he makes a last-ditch effort to fulfill the plan.

In this way, you have LF as the instigator of the plan, but the clumsiness of its execution is all Joffrey. If Bran hadn't fallen, Joffrey would have picked one of the other children.

[Chris Mormont]

22 hours ago, Rise said:

And catspaw most likely wasn't proffesional assassin, littlefinger would most likely hire better assassin.

A better assassin would have succeeded and escaped and he would not have used a traceable weapon, he would have used a pillow.  Whoever hired him wanted people to know Bran was murdered.  Who would take the blame?  The Lannisters.  Who would benefit from the resulting Chaos? Littlefinger.

 

[Toastedzergling]

On 2017/1/11 at 5:34 AM, Raisin' Bran said:

The scene with Catelyn, Petyr, and Varys does not lead me to think that it was a huge gamble. Petyr knows that Varys is not usually one to contradict a story in public, that is not what spiders do.

Petyr has also said that he thrives on chaos. Even if Varys had said something, it is likely that Catelyn would still take the word of Petyr over the spider's, but at the very worst, he would have just created more chaos in Cat's mind.

Additionally, Varys is still planning on a conflict between Lannister and Stark to pave the way for a Targaryen restoration. Pointing out that the knife was in fact not Tyrion's and having Catelyn believe him, would run the risk of working against that goal and stabilizing the tensions between the two great houses to where there might never be a war. Petyr may or may not know of Varys' plan, but it is a reason for Vary's to not say anything.

Lying and framing queen's brother have implications, doing it in front of Varys is very risky, it may backfire. I agree that Varys will probably not say anything in front of Catelyn even if he knows about the dagger, but still, the scene seemed very odd as GRRM paints Littlefinger's game style:  In public he is everyone's friend, and yet of such low birth that he is not a threat to anyone. Varys later admitted to Tyrion that "god knows what game Littlefinger is playing". Now out of nowhere Littlefinger lied and framed Tyrion in front of Varys, another important player. 

There is no way for Littlefinger to predict that Catelyn will seize Tyrion on his way south. If Tyrion reaches King's Landing, Ned will confront him, Robert will learn about his dagger. It will be chaotic situation but Littlefinger can't thrive in a chaos like this.

Maybe GRRM originally planned to let Littlefinger and Varys work together in AGOT, as Unfit Finlay pointed out, but later somehow he dropped the idea and didn't patch things up perfectly.