Macgregor of the North

The white walkers are the Others. The Others are the white walkers.

67 posts in this topic

20 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Free Northman Reborn

Remember, GRRM does not call the Others the Neverborn like you say. 

"The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." 

He says the Others raise the Neverborn. 

This is what my OP is about, as this suggests three tiers to the Icy threat. 

But my OP set out to prove that if there ever was a plan for that, it's not in place now.

Well what is a better fit for a so-called "Neverborn", than a being that is not born but is constructed, and animated by the Lifeforce of a sacrificed human baby?

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31 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well what is a better fit for a so-called "Neverborn", than a being that is not born but is constructed, and animated by the Lifeforce of a sacrificed human baby?

Yes true that sort of fits the description of something that is neverborn but you were claiming that GRRM was calling his Others the Neverborn which is what I was correcting. He says they raise the Neverborn in that comment of his. 

Anyway, when we think of the term born we always think of something being born from within a female carrier such as ourselves being born from our mothers, but that's not the only use for the term really is it. 

If me and you decided to create a new Forum tomorrow, on that day our joint venture forum would be "born". 

So if an Other brings back one of Crasters sons and it goes through the sacrifice process which then generates an Other, then at that moment another Other was "born" wasn't it?. 

Edited by Macgregor of the North

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9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Hey TFL. 

Even if there is a Great Other, a singular leader to oppose R'Hllor, it still doesn't take away from the fact the Others are the White Walkers and the White Walkers are the Others and we have seen them already. 

Agreed. My fault if it came off that I was trying to negate one idea or the other. I actually think it is possible that there is a hierarchy with these frozen creatures. We already see this in the prologue (at least some sort of structure) when the first Other tests Waymar while the other Others wait in turn. We also see this as the Others send in disposable wights in large battles.

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I made this thread to combat the idea that there are White Walkers, and there is still yet to be a group of other beings called the Others still to descend out of the North. 

 

7 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Free Northman Reborn

Remember, GRRM does not call the Others the Neverborn like you say. 

"The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." 

He says the Others raise the Neverborn. 

This is what my OP is about, as this suggests three tiers to the Icy threat. 

But my OP set out to prove that if there ever was a plan for that, it's not in place now.

I gotta admit. I am a little confused here between these two posts of yours. 

I can get behind the idea of a tiered system such as:

  1. Great Other- ominous force, not this guy.
  2. Others, equal to, but different than White Walkers
    • It is possible that Craster's kids are raised as WW (I think they are blood/life sacrifices), but I tend to think these phrases are interchangeable and maybe based on region, just as we see with the other names for prophetic "heroes" throughout the series.
  3. wights, disposable canon fodder so to speak
9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

And in regards to the Great Other, it may just me some mass of energy or power that is kind of immobile, or stationary up in the Lands of Always Winter. The source of the Icy power if you will. 

GRRM doesn't really go in for the Dark lords and all that so I'm not sure it's a terrible being we will see ride forth to battle. 

Very much agreed. I think if it more as a force, or source of energy.

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

He has also said we won't be seeing any gods bursting into the story to change the story in any dramatic way, and Mel refers to the Great Other as a god, one of only two as your quote states. 

Mel is often wrong. She is looking out for herself first, as George states, and I think this gives her tunnel vision which is why she is close, but no cigar, when it comes to reading her flames. Apparently with Mel there is too much of a focus on her first.

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Infact, I'll share a wee thought I have. 

When the second moon exploded and sent pieces crashing to the "earth". I think two landed on magical land masses in the polar opposites of the land of always Winter and Asshai, creating the Others and Dragons, Ice and Fire. 

This stones caused such a massive magical upheaval in these areas it actually evolved these beings. Or something. 

R'hllor and the Great Other may not be actual beings that walk on two legs. Maybe more just like an entity of power or something, which powers all magic to their respective side of the spectrum, Ice and Fire. 

Im rambling now sorry, I haven't even begun to properly order these thoughts but I felt like letting a little bit leak out.

Ramble away. That is how our crazy ideas are formed.

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@The Fattest Leech

The Great Other is Bloodraven? No you didn't go there on my boy! 

Elaborate all you like, feel free to crack open that can of worms, I'll discuss anything to do with Bloodraven. 

Bloodraven is MY BOY!!!!:fencing:

I will stand with him no matter how he turns out. That is true love :wub:

It sounds like you follow LmL? Just guessing by your mention of the moon exploding??? Well, then you should be aware of his ideas that there is a lot of "energy stealing" that goes on in this world. There are some suspicious little men in the back rooms that seemingly try to warn Bran of something. Could BR being stealing energy that he has no right to? The ruby is a red fire stone, while the stone Brynden uses is a moonstone. Could the moon be stealing the fire from the sun??? Why were we told of an escape route? I think there are too many options with BR to think him a kindly old grandfather from start to finish with Bran. But, he could be :dunno: Bloodraven is one I actually don't want to figure out first because I would love to read it as it unfolds.

I all honesty, I do believe that what Bryden did in life was covered every damned shade of grey, but not inherently "evil". He seemed very focused, and driven and loyal beyond measure. Egg annoys the hell out of me anyway- I am sure I am going to hell on this forum for admitting that out loud:devil: It's ok. People curse me all the time. I'm used to it. 

 

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34 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Egg annoys the hell out of me anyway- I am sure I am going to hell on this forum for admitting that out loud:devil: It's ok. People curse me all the time. I'm used to it. 

Well, I agree that he is annoying.  I think if most people really thought about it, they would agree too.  He is a pampered little prince, always wanting to use "the boot" to get out of dangerous situations and not by his own merit.  

I think the "idea" of Egg is why people like him.  A prince picks a hedge knight to serve, goes on to be king, brother of Aemon, great grandfather of Dany, yada yada.

Sorry, that was way off topic.

I agree with OP. Also, like the thinking behind 2 powers and not 2 "gods".  This makes the most sense to me from an overall point of view.  To think that Mel's belief of R'hllor and the Great Other is correct, is in my opinion, being a little short sighted.  

As TFL said, 

43 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

she is close, but no cigar, when it comes to reading her flames

Trying to think of a single instance where she was 100% correct with her predictions besides the threats to her own person........

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On 1/10/2017 at 11:42 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

However, there could be a leader of the Others, the Great Other, as Mel calls him. She seems to refer to a Great Other in the singular form, as opposed to the more common"the Others", or even plural (which are different), "wights".

Hey @The Fattest Leech!

Your quote from Mel to Davos is the only mentioning of Great Other in the entire series. So the only reason we even learn the term Great Other is through Mel. No one else mentions this term. Therefore we have no reason to think this thing called Great Other is an actual being leading the rest of the Others. A leader could be possible, but at this point in the books we have no evidence of it. And it's name may or may not be Great Other. As of right now though, the term Great Other would not refer to this. Great Other is simply the opposing god to R'Hollor in Mel’s beliefs. It is a god, like R'Hollor. It is not an actual thing leading the Others.

At least that is how I read it.

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12 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So, just like Coldhands is almost certainly merely a meat suit worn by Bloodraven,

As Lee Corso would say, "Not so fast my friend."

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26 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Hey @The Fattest Leech!

Your quote from Mel to Davos is the only mentioning of Great Other in the entire series. So the only reason we even learn the term Great Other is through Mel. No one else mentions this term. Therefore we have no reason to think this thing called Great Other is an actual being leading the rest of the Others. A leader could be possible, but at this point in the books we have no evidence of it. And it's name may or may not be Great Other. As of right now though, the term Great Other would not refer to this. Great Other is simply the opposing god to R'Hollor in Mel’s beliefs. It is a god, like R'Hollor. It is not an actual thing leading the Others.

At least that is how I read it.

Overall I agree. But who else do we have in the story to learn about the Others from? Certainly not maesters. Old Nan does not even get it quite right. You won't find anyone in the Faith of 7 talking about them. As of right now, Mel may be the only one who does give that clue that there is something bigger than the Others we have seen. Trust me, I am willing to discount and scrutinize Mel and what she says. Especially if none of the Free Folk have mentioned it yet because they have the actual experience up there. But George has Mel mention it and it could be for a reason and not one to ignore... just yet;).

I'm down with the opposing god idea. I think that the "name" Great Other Mel uses is a placeholder name, or generic term. Kinda like what the OP is asking. The line that determines what/who is a god and not seems to be paper thin, or almost non existent. This is one of George's tricksier idea he wove in.

I guess the idea of it being an actual thing is a topic for discussion. Is it a singular thing Mel is talking about? Is she seeing something in her fires that make her bleed and smoke that she takes as an Other? Or are the Other's plural considered the Great Other singular?

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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@The Fattest Leech

Hey, mobile phone quoting here I'm afraid. 

Quote

Agreed. My fault if it came off that I was trying to negate one idea or the other. I actually think it is possible that there is a hierarchy with these frozen creatures. We already see this in the prologue (at least some sort of structure) when the first Other tests Waymar while the other Others wait in turn. We also see this as the Others send in disposable wights in large battles.

I agree on the heirarchy to a certain extent yeah. Obviously the Others rule the Wights and are above them so that's settled, and yes there is a main Other doing the testing with Waymar while his back up reserves wait for the ok. But they are all identical looking, "twins to the first", so hierarchy in rank yes, that seems likely. 

But, in regards to a separate species still appearing I think I've proved in my OP we won't be seeing "the Others", a whole new species we haven't yet, appear in the last two books, as we have already seen them.

On your confusion, I'll settle it here. I do not believe there is any other group, or species of Icy threat that we will "see" in the story. If there is a Great Other it won't be something we will see walking around. There are the Wights, and there are the Others/White Walkers and that's it for me.

The only difference we will see is the Others being more numerous and organised, and possibly riding Ice spiders but no third type of species. That's my opinion though, and I explain in the OP why I think it's the case. 

Quote

Mel is often wrong.

I know, I was just using the quote that you used first to drive a wee point home. 

Quote

Ramble away. That is how our crazy ideas are formed.

I will one day sit down and really flesh that idea out. It involves the massive amount of blood sacrifice the Cotf used and I think it upset something in the skies. Only a blood sacrifice of that magnitude could do that I think and there is ample evidence the singers sacrificed on an enormous scale in the WOIAF book.

On Bloodraven, Lol I was expecting that response I know you love him so, he's brilliant. I genuinely dont think he's evil at heart. I analyse him quite a bit and I just don't feel it in these bones of mine. 

As to LmL, yes I've read a few of his essays, what can I say the guy has a great grasp on the books, but he hasn't came up with all that stuff himself, there is a Great team of readers analysing that all put their ideas together (how it should be, all helping each other), guys like Durran Durrandon and I think an older reader called Schmendrick. Its great analysis, it truly is but if I'm honest I spied the moon thing and it's connection to Dragons a long time ago, it's not like you can miss it is it?.

On BR again, of course he is a figure who is more than willing to get his hands dirty but I believe that anything he does, it is going to be, in the end, for the greater good. 

And that includes if it means something bad happening to Bran!!! Oh, did I just say that?. 

Hey, Egg ain't all that bad is he lol?. I think you may warm to him in the Novellas to come when he helps out at Winterfell and starts courting his Blackwood hunny. 

 

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Hey @Wolf of the Steppes

Quote

agree with OP. Also, like the thinking behind 2 powers and not 2 "gods".  This makes the most sense to me from an overall point of view.

Yeah and can be connected to fallen pieces of black rock from the sky in the story of the Bloodstone emperor in the WOIAF: 

"When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror. He practiced dark arts, torture, and necromancy, enslaved his people, took a tiger-woman for his bride, feasted on human flesh, and cast down the true gods to worship a black stone that had fallen from the sky."

This has a lot of dark similarities to the Others actually, Necromancy which is described as how they raise the Wights, feasting on human flesh is also a folk tale connected to the Others, which I think is simply a lost in translation description of the babies being taken away for their blood and their "life". 

The thing I'm interested about is how this piece of black rock was worshipped like a god, meaning it had power. Power enough to turn the Bloodstone emperor from his own gods he worshiped beforehand. 

This then ties in with my idea that a piece (or pieces?) of this black moon rock landed on each polar opposite of the world - The Land of Always Winter/Heart of Winter to the North, and Asshai to the South, and they caused a massive magical upheaval in what I think were already magical land areas. 

I may even go as far as to say this sparked the creation/evolution of the Others (Ice) and the Dragons (Fire) in their respective polar areas. 

Like I said I need to sit down and really try to order it in to a neat piece. 

Suffice to say, I do not think that the Cotf took a man, and transformed him in to an Other. I think the Cotfs hand in the creation of these beings will be something that GRRM will handle in a much much deeper way in our books. 

 

Edited by Macgregor of the North

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On 1/10/2017 at 10:30 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

It all stems from an early piece of text from GRRM. Shown below:

Not true... This was a debate before that letter was released.

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2 minutes ago, Kienn said:

Not true... This was a debate before that letter was released.

But the letter and its contents are what people bring forth as their strongest evidence isn't it so?.

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2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

But the letter and its contents are what people bring forth as their strongest evidence isn't it so?.

That depends on who is posting. Some people still use that exchange between Bran & Old Nan as the primary source.

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1 minute ago, Kienn said:

That depends on who is posting. Some people still use that exchange between Bran & Old Nan as the primary source.

You will have to provide a quote to explain what you mean by "that" exchange. 

And if I'm honest, the amount of times the letter is used as evidence dwarfs the amount of times any book text is used. 

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7 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You will have to provide a quote to explain what you mean by "that" exchange. 

And if I'm honest, the amount of times the letter is used as evidence dwarfs the amount of times any book text is used. 

"I could tell you the story about Brandon the Builder," Old Nan said. "That was always your favorite."
Thousands and thousands of years ago, Brandon the Builder had raised Winterfell, and some said the Wall. Bran knew the story, but it had never been his favorite. Maybe one of the other Brandons had liked that story. Sometimes Nan would talk to him as if he were her Brandon, the baby she had nursed all those years ago, and sometimes she confused him with his uncle Brandon, who was killed by the Mad King before Bran was even born. She had lived so long, Mother had told him once, that all the Brandon Starks had become one person in her head. 
"That's not my favorite," he said. "My favorites were the scary ones." He heard some sort of commotion outside and turned back to the window. Rickon was running across the yard toward the gatehouse, the wolves following him, but the tower faced the wrong way for Bran to see what was happening. He smashed a fist on his thigh in frustration and felt nothing.
"Oh, my sweet summer child," Old Nan said quietly, "what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods." 
"You mean the Others," Bran said querulously.
"The Others," Old Nan agreed. "Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks." Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, "So, child. This is the sort of story you like?"
 

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6 minutes ago, Kienn said:

 

 

Where do you see proof in there that the Others are not the White Walkers?. 

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16 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Overall I agree. But who else do we have in the story to learn about the Others from? Certainly not maesters. Old Nan does not even get it quite right. You won't find anyone in the Faith of 7 talking about them. As of right now, Mel may be the only one who does give that clue that there is something bigger than the Others we have seen. Trust me, I am willing to discount and scrutinize Mel and what she says. Especially if none of the Free Folk have mentioned it yet because they have the actual experience up there. But George has Mel mention it and it could be for a reason and not one to ignore... just yet;).

I'm down with the opposing god idea. I think that the "name" Great Other Mel uses is a placeholder name, or generic term. Kinda like what the OP is asking. The line that determines what/who is a god and not seems to be paper thin, or almost non existent. This is one of George's tricksier idea he wove in.

I guess the idea of it being an actual thing is a topic for discussion. Is it a singular thing Mel is talking about? Is she seeing something in her fires that make her bleed and smoke that she takes as an Other? Or are the Other's plural considered the Great Other singular?

I think we are on the same page, but I'm not sure I am explaining what I want to very well. I'm going to try again. Keep in mind that in no way am I saying you are wrong, this is just how I interpret the text.

The Great Other (as we see the term used) is only a god/power/spirit/whatever you want to call it opposing R'Hollor. When Mel says "he who's name shall not be spoken" (however it goes) she is talking about the Great Other. We only know the term Great Other from Mel's conversation with Davos. Therefore, this is all we have on this Great Other oppositional god.

There could stil be some sort of leader (an actual moving, communicating, living the way Others are "alive") but this leader would not be the Great Other. It would be more like a Last Hero/Azor Ahai type figure (for lack of a better comparison) rather than a god. 

Hopefully I am making sense know. For some reason this is hard to put into writing...:blink:

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14 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Where do you see proof in there that the Others are not the White Walkers?. 

I didn't say it was proof... I said it was the basis for the argument that people have used since long before the letter you're using came out.

The argument using that quote is that Old Nan and Bran make the distinction between Others and white walkers. Bran asks for a story, Old Nan starts a story that has "white walkers" as one of the aspects, Bran identifies that story as the story of the Others, and Old Nan agrees. This can be interpreted to indicate that white walkers and the Others are related, but distinct.

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1 minute ago, Kienn said:

I didn't say it was proof... I said it was the basis for the argument that people have used since long before the letter you're using came out.

The argument using that quote is that Old Nan and Bran make the distinction between Others and white walkers. Bran asks for a story, Old Nan starts a story that has "white walkers" as one of the aspects, Bran identifies that story as the story of the Others, and Old Nan agrees. This can be interpreted to indicate that white walkers and the Others are related, but distinct.

Not really though.

Old Nan says the White Walkers move through the woods, to which he demands outright "you mean the Others", as in these White walkers you mention, you mean the Others dont you, then Nan confirms that the White walkers she mentioned are indeed the Others.

"little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods." 

"You mean the Others," Bran said querulously.
"The Others," Old Nan agreed.
 

 

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7 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Not really though.

Yes that's the standard counter.

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Just now, Kienn said:

Yes that's the standard counter.

If im honest i believe its the only interpretation of that exchange but something tells me you think differently. All good. We all read the passages our own way.  

I actually quote the exchange in the OP at the end. Regardless of the exchange i think i lay out a convincing argument the Others are indeed the White walkers and we have already seen them, and wont be seeing a third different type of species charge down from the North, unless its Ice spiders.

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