Archmaester_Aemma

A new framework for some of the HotU visions

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So, whilst kind of done to death, I wanted to offer a suggestion of a framework for analysing a section of these visions to help guide some of the interpretations of the individual visions. This is the passage I'm analysing:

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Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . . (Dany IV, ACOK)

So, as with most of the visions in the House of the Undying, this is chock full of trios and I see it divided up like this:

1) Daughter of death – a) Viserys, b.) Rhaego, c) Rhaegar

2) Slayer of lies – a) Blue-eyed king, b.) cloth dragon, c) stone beast

3) Bride of fire – a) Riding her silver, b.) the smiling grey corpse, c) A blue flower at the Wall

I believe that these headers are our guides for interpretation. They provide a lens through which the 3 visions should be interpreted: my framework is an attempt to focus this lens. So, without further ado...

 

Daughter of death

 

I believe these are deaths that are associated with epiphanies that led to her being able to perform her miracle i.e. to become the mother of dragons. In this sense, she becomes the daughter of death as she is a product of these deaths.

 

1a) Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth.

Dany’s choice to allow Viserys to die and to watch that happening is a major part of her character arc in AGoT – the moment when she stops being Viserys’ abused younger sister and begins to become the khaleesi. It is also heralded with this line: “fire cannot kill a dragon”. This conviction allows her to step into Drogo’s pyre with the certainty that she will not be harmed.

 

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“’You are my queen, my sword is yours, but do not ask me to stand aside as you climb on Drogo’s pyre. I will not watch you burn.’ / ‘Is that what you fear?’ Dany kissed him lightly on his broad forehead. ‘I am not such a child as that, sweet ser.’” Dany, X, AGoT

 

1b) A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him.

Secondly, we see Rhaego as he would have been as the Stallion who Mounts the World. The death of Rhaego features in Dany’s fever dream in Dany IX, AGoT, which is also part of a larger series of dreams in which she is told to wake the dragon. The death of Rhaego also appears to be the point at which Dany takes to heart Mirri Maz Duur’s lesson that “only death can pay for life”: again, this is a key factor in the rebirth of the dragons.

 

1c) Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name.

Finally, we see Rhaegar being killed at the Trident. Again, referring back to Dany’s fever dream in AGoT, the last image we see of the wake the dragon dream is this:

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And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armour. Fire glimmered through the narrow eye slit of his helm. ‘The last dragon,’ Ser Jorah’s voice whispered faintly. ‘The last, the last.’ Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

Dany IX, AGOT

This is the final revelation that Dany required: she was the last dragon, and thus it fell to her to reintroduce them into the world, using all the knowledge that she had attained from the deaths that had transformed her.

 

And so, the daughter of death became the mother of dragons.

 

Interim summary 1

 

So, as I believe I have demonstrated, this section is very tightly linked to how her experiences of death (whether she saw them in person or not) allowed her to become the mother of dragons. This led me to think that, perhaps, the other visions are just as connected and just as coherent.

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Slayer of lies

 

 

I believe that, here, Daenerys will be slaying one very particular type of lie: that of people’s birth. I’m going to approach these out of order, because there is one that I believe is pretty firmly established in the minds of most of the fandom, one that is generally accepted but has some critiques, and one that is wide open in most peoples’ minds.

 

2b) A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

 

This mummer’s dragon is likely to be Young Griff, supposedly Aegon VI Targaryen. However, many believe that this Aegon is actually a fake, and I happen to be one of them. I won’t hash out all of the details here, because that would be a very long tangent that would derail this analysis, but *some* *links* *are* *here* if you haven’t heard of this theory before. Taken in conjunction with Quaithe’s prophecy about the mummer’s dragon¸ this vision appears to be one of the most widely accepted.

 

2c) From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

 

This is the one that appears to have stirred up the most debate, from what I can see. Quite a lot of people see this as Jon Connington, given his greyscale and his sigil. To me, this doesn’t make sense as it is the same lie as the mummer’s dragon, so I don’t understand why it would come up twice. Euron crops up a lot too, although his association with the colour blue allies him with ice and iciness, rather than stone or earthiness. The stone sphinxes at the Citadel, Bran as the stony winged wolf and even Loras Tyrell have been mentioned in the bid to try to work out what this is.

 

I haven’t seen Tyrion Lannister mentioned as this at all, but I think it is likely to be him. Tyrion is heavily associated with gargoyles and this has been noted multiple times – just google it and half a dozen westeros.org and reddit threads pop up. Indeed, in one of our first on-screen interactions with him, he is sitting on a ledge outside Winterfell “looking for all the world like a gargoyle” (Jon I, AGoT), so clearly George has planned for this to be an important association. I’ll leave that there, mainly because there are so many threads that detail this association better than I can, but I want to highlight that, as a gargoyle, Tyrion is likely to be a stone beast of some description.

 

Adding more strength to the Tyrion-is-a-stone-beast argument, Lucifer means Lightbringer delved deeply into the myths associated with Tyrion’s moniker twisted little monkey demon in *this essay*. This associates well with a myth about a monkey demon carved from stone: so stone beast imagery still going strong.

 

Furthermore, if Tyrion has Targaryen heritage, then he would also be a dragon. This would appear to be supported by Moqorro’s dragon vision:

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“Dragons,” Moqorro said in the Common Tngue of Westeros. “Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.” ADWD, Tyrion VIII

That Tyrion stands in a prophecy that deals exclusively with dragons is highly suggestive of his being a dragon too. In which case, Tyrion the stone beast would have wings and breathe fire. This would fit with my proposed theme of this section being Daenerys slaying birth lies, as in this case she would be revealing his Targaryen parentage, allowing him to “take wing” as his true self.

 

2a) Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

 

Most people believe this to be Stannis. Blue eyes – check. Magic sword – check. No shadow – well, shadow babies so, check. I am a little more critical of this for a number of reasons.

 

Firstly, the sword in the vision is red – Stannis’ isn’t. In the fake forging ceremony concocted by Mel, “jade green flames [are] swirling around cherry red steel”, after which “The Red Sword of Heroes looks a proper mess.” And in every occasion after that, the sword is described as red AND orange AND yellow:

Quote

 

ASoS, Davos IV: The steel had a glow to it; now orange, now yellow, now red. The air shimmered around it, and no jewel had ever sparkled so brilliantly. 

ASoS, Sam V: "It glows," said Sam, in a hushed voice. "As if it were on fire. There are no flames, but the steel is yellow and red and orange, all flashing and glimmering, like sunshine on water, but prettier. I wish you could see it, Maester." / "I see it now, Sam. A sword full of sunlight. So lovely to behold." 

 

ADWD, Jon I: Light rippled up and down the blade, now red, now yellow, now orange, painting the king's face in harsh, bright hues.

ADWD, Jon III: The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before … but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel.

 

 

 

 

 

Which raises a secondary problem with the sword – after the forging ceremony, Stannis’ sword is always described as being full of the sun. But, in Dany’s vision, the sword “glows like sunset” i.e. it is the herald of the night and a lack of sun. In this case, surely the blade that is the herald of night cannot be the same blade as one full of sunshine.

 

 

So, where is the red sword?

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ADWD, Jon XII: Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. 

 

This is the *only* red sword I have found in the entire series. Just one. Plus, the other criteria could be fulfilled in this way:

-          Blue eyes - if he is resurrected with ice magic in some way, this may literally happen as with wights. More symbolically, if R+L=J, then Jon is an Ice Dragon and the constellation of the Ice Dragon has a bright blue star as its eye.

-          King – I could imagine a ruthless resurrected Jon Snow pulling a Night’s King on the Watch to get them in line and focused on the threat from the North. Or he is heralded King in the North, in line with Robb’s final will. (These are not mutually exclusive ideas.)

-          No shadow – Shadows are associated with death. In Asshai-by-the-Shadow, nothing but ghost grass grows. When Mirri Maz Duur performs the blood magic ritual on Drogo, she dances with shadows, telling Ser Jorah that “The grave casts long shadows”.  If resurrected, Jon has defeated death and would therefore no longer cast a shadow as he isn’t in the grave.

This would also fit in more with my theory that these lies are about people’s births, as R+L=J has yet to be revealed but Stannis doesn’t have any secrets looming over his birth.

 

I acknowledge that my possible interpretation also has its flaws. For instance, in my critique of the grey stone beast interpretations, I mentioned that it would be unlikely for the same lie to be repeated: yet if I’m right about the blue-eyed king being Jon and the stone beast being Tyrion, then Dany would be slaying the same lie/revealing them both to be secret Targs, so I’m running in to the same problem.

 

Secondly, I may have been interpreting the sword-ness too literally – if the sword is just meant to represent a weapon, then Stannis is using Melisandre in this way. Notably, “the red priestess was fire, and her hair was blood and flame” (Jon I, ADWD). Maester Cressen calls the comet the “colour of blood and flame and sunsets”, so Melisandre, who is blood and flame, is also the colour of sunsets. So, if Mel is the weapon that the blue-eyed king wields, then she is the colour of sunset, in line with the vision. (Although, if she resurrects Jon, then I imagine that he would attempt to wield her as a weapon too, so this sword interpretation cuts both ways too.)

 

Thirdly, in the final vision of the Bride of fire trio of visions, the blue flower in the wall of ice is clearly meant to be Jon Snow. Whilst there is nothing to say that the same person can’t crop up in two different sections, it is more likely that they won’t, thus casting doubt on whether this blue-eyed king would be Jon.

 

Finally, on a more mundane practical note, how would Dany find out and reveal this to someone?

 

So, I am not entirely convinced about whether this blue-eyed king is Stannis or a resurrected Jon. A slight adjustment to my proposed framework, with Dany revealing true identities or “slaying the lie” of someone’s current identity, ensures that both interpretations still fit into a more coherent prophecy trio than has been traditionally proposed.

 

Interim summary 2

 

So I have endeavoured to show that Daenerys will slay the lies of fAegon’s, Tyrion’s and Jon’s birth stories, as they are known at the minute i.e. fAegon is not a Targ, Tyrion is not a Lannister, and Jon is not Ned Stark’s bastard. However, as I demonstrated in the last few paragraphs, this framework may be a little looser: Dany may be slaying the lie of people’s commonly believed identities i.e. Stannis as AAR, fAegon as a true Targ and Tyrion as a Lannister. Nevertheless, both of these trio of interpretations fit a relatively strict and far more coherent framework for interpreting the visions, when compared to the possibilities previously offered (mainly for the stone beast vision).

Edited by Archmaester_Aemma
Because I can't type

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These are good but I'd like to point out that what Moqorro says separates Tyrion himself from the dragons. It's dragons, in three opposite pairs. Then it's "and you" in the middle snarling. Fine for the stone beast reference, but does not remotely support Tyrion having Targaryen blood. I think Tyrion as a dragonseed is a deliberate red herring from Martin.

Another reason Jon Connington is mentioned for the stone beast is that "shadow fire" has been compared to the name Blackfyre. If Aegon is not Rhaegar and Elia's son, then the probability of him being a Blackfyre descendant is very good. At the very least we will see someone of Blackfyre descent, be it Aegon or another.

Looking forward to the next part of this. 

After you're finished with the postings, would you be interested in discussing the import of the three mounts Daenerys rides? One to bed (the silver, her wedding night with Drogo), one to dread (Drogon, to battle, most likely), and one to love (to be determined).

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Bride of fire

 

I believe that these may be Dany’s three mounts: one to bed, one to dread and one to love. I also believe that, as is implied by her being the bride of fire, these are marriages that are tied to her dragons in a very intimate manner. Once again, I’ll be covering these out of order, given that two of the visions have essentially reached a consensus, so I’ll devote more time to the debated vision at the end of this section.

 

Hizdahr zo Loraq is notably missing from this list, as he married Dany in order to subdue her dragons, not to gain the use of them, hence she is not a bride of fire in this marriage. This is why I believe he is ineligible for consideration for these 3 visions and for the 3 mounts (as I believe the two are linked).

 

3a) Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars.

I believe this is the HotU representation of Dany’s wedding night with Khal Drogo, i.e. this is her riding her mount to bed (because she was not in love with Drogo at this point – she was terrified of him and what would happen). Obviously, Drogo is important for the dragons, because she receives her eggs as a wedding gift and it is his pyre that brings them into the world. I believe it is Drogo’s funeral pyre when Dany becomes the bride of fire: this passage is rife with marriage metaphors, including flames that “writhed before her like the women who had danced at her wedding” and the desire to “rush into the flames to beg for his forgiveness and take him inside her one last time, the fire melting the flesh from their bones until they were as one, forever.” Heck, Dany even outright states “This is a wedding, too”. And so the bride of fire became the mother of dragons.

 

3c) A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

This is commonly believed to be Jon Snow, given the association between Lyanna and blue winter roses. The implication of “filling the air with sweetness” suggests love, and so this could potentially be the mount for love that is prophesied earlier in the chapter. Daenerys being the bride of fire in this instance is likely to be the use of her dragons in the upcoming War for the Dawn: this is especially likely in light of her later dream of defeating an army of Ice using dragonfire at the Trident (Dany III, ASoS).

 

And now to the controversial one…

 

3b) A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.

The most common interpretations of this vision appear to be JonCon, Euron Greyjoy and Victarion Greyjoy. I think we can rule out JonCon for the simple fact that he is not going to be marrying Dany any time soon, nor are allying with the dragons going to be an important feature any time soon. Moreover, I concur with other analyses that suggest that smiling grey lips is George playing with words for House Greyjoy. So, the debate comes down to which of the Greyoy brothers it’s likely to be.

 

I’m siding with Euron for a couple of reasons. Firstly, his use of Shade of the Evening is excessive, and the other excessive users described at length are the Undying Ones. Notably they are little more than “blue shadows” (remembering that shadows are equated with death) and do not breathe; thus, excessive use of shade of the evening is associated with corpses. This link is admittedly tenuous, given that Victarion had Moqorro do some weird blood magic on his arm that could make him corpse-like in some fashion.

 

Secondly, the eyes are described as bright. Having used asearchoficeandfire.com (“bright eye” as the search term), there are very few situations when this is used. Of relevance here are the associations with mockery and eye colour. 3 people have eyes that are bright with mockery: Denzo (who “helped” Quentyn in The Spurned Suitor, ADWD), Littlefinger (when capturing Ned in Ned XIII, AGoT) and Euron himself (“Euron’s smiling eye was bright with mockery.” The Reaver, AFFC).

 

Regarding eye colour, Euron has a blue eye and an eye patch. Bright blue eyes are much more common than you’d think in Westeros. For instance, the Baratheons all have blue eyes, and Edric Storm’s are described as bright and he is the spitting image of Renly and Robert, who therefore also must have had bright blue eyes. The wights have bright blue eyes. The Ice Dragon constellation has a bright blue eye. The Tullys have blue eyes, and both Edmure Tully and Rickon Stark (who has the Tully look) have bright eyes. Daario Naharis has bright blue eyes. AND so does Euron – “The torches along the walls were burning bright, and so was he, blue lips, blue eye, and all.” (The Reaver, AFFC).

 

One common objection to Euron being the fulfilment of this prophecy is that he only has one eye – he doesn’t, he wears the eye patch for effect. His other eye is black. And whaddya know? Ravens are consistently described as having bright black eyes (Prologue, ACoK; Bran II, ADWD); with crows and ravens so heavily associated, the raven’s bright eyes should imply the brightness of this Crow’s Eye. Thus, Euron has two bright eyes.

 

Victarion, on the other hand, has none of this bright eye imagery.

So, how does this relate to Daenerys being the bride of fire? Well, we know that Euron wants to marry her because of her dragons - perhaps this vision is meant to imply he succeeds. (TWOW spoilers in spoiler tab).

Spoiler

Indeed, I have analysed one of the visions from The Forsaken spoiler chapter *here* and, in my opinion, the pattern of symbolism tells a very coherent story that suggests he uses Viserion to become king.

If this marriage does come to pass, it is likely that he would be a mount to dread: he isn't exactly a nice bloke, and he is looking to steal one of Dany's dragons to boot.

 

 

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Final summary

I believe each trio of visions associated with a description can be placed on a tighter framework than has previously been proposed and this allows for a far more coherent interpretation of the visions. These are:

 

1) Daughter of death: 3 deaths that led to the epiphanies she needed to birth the dragons in to the world – Viserys showed her that fire cannot kill a dragon, Mirri Maz Duur’s in utero murder of Rhaego taught her that only death can pay for life, and the reminder of Rhaegar’s death on the Trident ensured that Daenerys is the last dragon.

2) Slayer of lies: Dany will slay the lies surrounding 3 people’s identities: she will show people that Aegon is not a true Targaryen, only a mummer’s dragon, that Tyrion is a stone dragon and that either R+L=J or Stannis is not Azor Ahai Reborn.

3) Bride of fire: Dany will marry 3 men that are heavily associated with her dragons: Drogo, her mount to bed, where she wedded fire in his funeral pyre; Euron, her mount to dread, who will marry her to gain a dragon to attempt to steal the Iron Throne; and Jon, her mount to love, who will use her dragons to end the War for the Dawn, defeating an army of ice at the Trident.

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5 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

These are good but I'd like to point out that what Moqorro says separates Tyrion himself from the dragons. It's dragons, in three opposite pairs. Then it's "and you" in the middle snarling. Fine for the stone beast reference, but does not remotely support Tyrion having Targaryen blood. I think Tyrion as a dragonseed is a deliberate red herring from Martin.

Another reason Jon Connington is mentioned for the stone beast is that "shadow fire" has been compared to the name Blackfyre. If Aegon is not Rhaegar and Elia's son, then the probability of him being a Blackfyre descendant is very good. At the very least we will see someone of Blackfyre descent, be it Aegon or another.

Looking forward to the next part of this. 

After you're finished with the postings, would you be interested in discussing the import of the three mounts Daenerys rides? One to bed (the silver, her wedding night with Drogo), one to dread (Drogon, to battle, most likely), and one to love (to be determined).

Hey Lady BB,

Hope you enjoyed the last post of this :)

Re the Moqorro vision, I know it is loose but I didn't want to have to go through evaluating evidence pro or anti his Targ-hood - there's loads of that milling about already haha having said that, the symbolism surrounding his character is, IMO, too hefty to be ignored... I'll just point to *this LmL essay*, because he goes through this in a lot of detail and far more coherently than I can, but it's what sold me on an idea I was initially highly sceptical of. Plus, as I believe I said, I just don't see how "Blackfyre descendant" can appear twice in the same passage of visions - it seems a little redundant.

I have covered the three mounts - let me know what you think :)

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I did like the rest of the posts. :D

I always enjoy LmL's posts. But I still think Tyrion is not a Targaryen, not because I dislike the idea or discount the clues, but because I feel the author has deliberately made it seem plausible so that he can use the possibility to further explore the characters' perceptions about blood and power, but does not need it to be true to do so, and in fact it would better serve to underscore how divorced perceptions can be from reality if Tyrion is in fact Tywin's son despite his seeming Targness.

I should mention that I also like the entirely irrelevant (because it couldn't be proven in-series) idea of Tyrion being a tetragamic chimera, and thus is both Tywin's son and Aerys' son. 

I agree on the redundancy. Was just pointing out the standard reasoning for the Jon Con argument. There's something to be said for the semantic argument of beast vs dragon. But then there's also the question of whether a bastard Targaryen even counts as a dragon, so...*shrug* We'll find out most of this eventually. I agree on the gargoyle symbolism for Tyrion. 

The mounts have always seemed to me to be pretty straightforward as animals she would ride, not as men she would "mount." She can have sex with men without marrying them so if "mount" is meant to be a euphemism or a bad pun, it wasn't a good choice for the Bride of Fire trilogy. I could however entirely agree that each mount is one she is riding to/when she meets each of her significant husbands/partners, or that they are symbolic of different eras in her life that also correspond to the men who are important to her. 

The one thing does trouble me about my interpretation with regard to the mounts is that it would mean she stops riding Drogon at some point. There are only two reasons I can think of for her to not ride Drogon: 1) she's pregnant or it is otherwise dangerous/unsafe to ride for some physical reason, or 2) Drogon is dead. I don't want Drogon to die, but I think that's the more likely reason she'd have another mount to ride. The only way I can square that with my sentimental attachment to dragons is if Dany sacrifices Drogon in order to save Westeros, which would still be sad but at least would be for a good cause.

Added note on 3c...Jon's likely Targaryen heritage doubles the "bride of fire" meaning. She would be the bride of fire and blood, in marrying a Targaryen who is also her nephew. The Targ Words become way more symbolic with this possibility.

On the subject of blue eyes...I was reading over a scene with Gendry and his eyes are not bright blue but ice blue. Since he's the spitting image of Robert, I'd say this means the Baratheon eyes are not always bright, though they are always blue. In ADwD Daario's eyes look purple when he changes his hair color to purple so we don't know what color his eyes really are. And all of the trueborn Stark kids except Arya have the Tully coloring, including the blue eyes.

You've made a great case for Euron. The only thing against it is the term used is "bright eyes" whereas Euron's eyes are referred to as the bright eye and the dark eye. It's like "his hands" for the valonqar--a detail that may or may not matter, or may not matter the way we think it does. Moqorro mentions "the dark eye" having fallen on Daenerys, and in his comment to Tyrion about the dragons he contrasts "bright and dark" as opposites. That said, Moqorro's views on the issue may not be the same as the Undying Ones' views.

What about Euron coming to her, with one of his brothers' corpses tied to the prow of his ship, or even Jon Connington's? Thus Euron is the husband in question, just not the corpse that symbolizes his appearance in Dany's life. I think there's a good argument to be made for the symbolism here: the silver represents Drogo's entry into her life; the blue rose for Jon (symbolic of R+L); and we can be sure that Euron's arrival anywhere is going to mean corpses in abundance. 

Good work!

Edited by Lady Blizzardborn

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On 1/10/2017 at 1:27 PM, Archmaester_Aemma said:

Slayer of lies

 

 

I believe that, here, Daenerys will be slaying one very particular type of lie: that of people’s birth. I’m going to approach these out of order, because there is one that I believe is pretty firmly established in the minds of most of the fandom, one that is generally accepted but has some critiques, and one that is wide open in most peoples’ minds.

 

2b) A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

 

This mummer’s dragon is likely to be Young Griff, supposedly Aegon VI Targaryen. However, many believe that this Aegon is actually a fake, and I happen to be one of them. I won’t hash out all of the details here, because that would be a very long tangent that would derail this analysis, but *some* *links* *are* *here* if you haven’t heard of this theory before. Taken in conjunction with Quaithe’s prophecy about the mummer’s dragon¸ this vision appears to be one of the most widely accepted.

 

2c) From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

 

This is the one that appears to have stirred up the most debate, from what I can see. Quite a lot of people see this as Jon Connington, given his greyscale and his sigil. To me, this doesn’t make sense as it is the same lie as the mummer’s dragon, so I don’t understand why it would come up twice. Euron crops up a lot too, although his association with the colour blue allies him with ice and iciness, rather than stone or earthiness. The stone sphinxes at the Citadel, Bran as the stony winged wolf and even Loras Tyrell have been mentioned in the bid to try to work out what this is.

 

I haven’t seen Tyrion Lannister mentioned as this at all, but I think it is likely to be him. Tyrion is heavily associated with gargoyles and this has been noted multiple times – just google it and half a dozen westeros.org and reddit threads pop up. Indeed, in one of our first on-screen interactions with him, he is sitting on a ledge outside Winterfell “looking for all the world like a gargoyle” (Jon I, AGoT), so clearly George has planned for this to be an important association. I’ll leave that there, mainly because there are so many threads that detail this association better than I can, but I want to highlight that, as a gargoyle, Tyrion is likely to be a stone beast of some description.

 

Adding more strength to the Tyrion-is-a-stone-beast argument, Lucifer means Lightbringer delved deeply into the myths associated with Tyrion’s moniker twisted little monkey demon in *this essay*. This associates well with a myth about a monkey demon carved from stone: so stone beast imagery still going strong.

 

Furthermore, if Tyrion has Targaryen heritage, then he would also be a dragon. This would appear to be supported by Moqorro’s dragon vision:

That Tyrion stands in a prophecy that deals exclusively with dragons is highly suggestive of his being a dragon too. In which case, Tyrion the stone beast would have wings and breathe fire. This would fit with my proposed theme of this section being Daenerys slaying birth lies, as in this case she would be revealing his Targaryen parentage, allowing him to “take wing” as his true self.

 

2a) Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

 

Most people believe this to be Stannis. Blue eyes – check. Magic sword – check. No shadow – well, shadow babies so, check. I am a little more critical of this for a number of reasons.

 

Firstly, the sword in the vision is red – Stannis’ isn’t. In the fake forging ceremony concocted by Mel, “jade green flames [are] swirling around cherry red steel”, after which “The Red Sword of Heroes looks a proper mess.” And in every occasion after that, the sword is described as red AND orange AND yellow:

 

Which raises a secondary problem with the sword – after the forging ceremony, Stannis’ sword is always described as being full of the sun. But, in Dany’s vision, the sword “glows like sunset” i.e. it is the herald of the night and a lack of sun. In this case, surely the blade that is the herald of night cannot be the same blade as one full of sunshine.

 

 

So, where is the red sword?

 

This is the *only* red sword I have found in the entire series. Just one. Plus, the other criteria could be fulfilled in this way:

-          Blue eyes - if he is resurrected with ice magic in some way, this may literally happen as with wights. More symbolically, if R+L=J, then Jon is an Ice Dragon and the constellation of the Ice Dragon has a bright blue star as its eye.

-          King – I could imagine a ruthless resurrected Jon Snow pulling a Night’s King on the Watch to get them in line and focused on the threat from the North. Or he is heralded King in the North, in line with Robb’s final will. (These are not mutually exclusive ideas.)

-          No shadow – Shadows are associated with death. In Asshai-by-the-Shadow, nothing but ghost grass grows. When Mirri Maz Duur performs the blood magic ritual on Drogo, she dances with shadows, telling Ser Jorah that “The grave casts long shadows”.  If resurrected, Jon has defeated death and would therefore no longer cast a shadow as he isn’t in the grave.

This would also fit in more with my theory that these lies are about people’s births, as R+L=J has yet to be revealed but Stannis doesn’t have any secrets looming over his birth.

 

I acknowledge that my possible interpretation also has its flaws. For instance, in my critique of the grey stone beast interpretations, I mentioned that it would be unlikely for the same lie to be repeated: yet if I’m right about the blue-eyed king being Jon and the stone beast being Tyrion, then Dany would be slaying the same lie/revealing them both to be secret Targs, so I’m running in to the same problem.

 

Secondly, I may have been interpreting the sword-ness too literally – if the sword is just meant to represent a weapon, then Stannis is using Melisandre in this way. Notably, “the red priestess was fire, and her hair was blood and flame” (Jon I, ADWD). Maester Cressen calls the comet the “colour of blood and flame and sunsets”, so Melisandre, who is blood and flame, is also the colour of sunsets. So, if Mel is the weapon that the blue-eyed king wields, then she is the colour of sunset, in line with the vision. (Although, if she resurrects Jon, then I imagine that he would attempt to wield her as a weapon too, so this sword interpretation cuts both ways too.)

 

Thirdly, in the final vision of the Bride of fire trio of visions, the blue flower in the wall of ice is clearly meant to be Jon Snow. Whilst there is nothing to say that the same person can’t crop up in two different sections, it is more likely that they won’t, thus casting doubt on whether this blue-eyed king would be Jon.

 

Finally, on a more mundane practical note, how would Dany find out and reveal this to someone?

 

So, I am not entirely convinced about whether this blue-eyed king is Stannis or a resurrected Jon. A slight adjustment to my proposed framework, with Dany revealing true identities or “slaying the lie” of someone’s current identity, ensures that both interpretations still fit into a more coherent prophecy trio than has been traditionally proposed.

 

Interim summary 2

 

So I have endeavoured to show that Daenerys will slay the lies of fAegon’s, Tyrion’s and Jon’s birth stories, as they are known at the minute i.e. fAegon is not a Targ, Tyrion is not a Lannister, and Jon is not Ned Stark’s bastard. However, as I demonstrated in the last few paragraphs, this framework may be a little looser: Dany may be slaying the lie of people’s commonly believed identities i.e. Stannis as AAR, fAegon as a true Targ and Tyrion as a Lannister. Nevertheless, both of these trio of interpretations fit a relatively strict and far more coherent framework for interpreting the visions, when compared to the possibilities previously offered (mainly for the stone beast vision).

I personally think no one will truly believe Aegon's claim that he is the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Elia, so I agree that the "lie" Daenerys slays is the "lie" that he's a Blackfyre.  

Overall, I'm quite convinced by @sweetsunray's essay that the "lies" to be slain regard prophecy associated with these people.  ETA : http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/132432-the-slayer-of-lies/

ETA2: If the "lies" DO refer to identity/birth, either the cloth dragon refers to Aegon or the stone beast refers to Jon Connington.  But not both.  That's too repetitive.  Why would two lies ultimately refer to Aegon's identity?  I mean, I somewhat support the theory that Young Griff is Jon Snow's twin (the cloth dragon "lie" meaning he's not Elia's son and the stone beast "lie" meaning he's not a Blackfyre either).  And I STILL think it's inappropriate to allocate two "lies" to him. 

Edited by Isobel Harper

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Yes, I think most commenters around here would agree that the three headers as you call them provide a framework for understanding the nine associated visions. 

Daughter of Death

Quote

Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name.

As you say, these visions clearly refer Viserys, her stillborn son, and Rhaegar. These three death play a huge role in shaping Daenerys, so she is the daughter of these deaths. 

But I don't see how they led to her being able to perform the miracle of birthing dragons. To understand that, we should look to her dreams. I believe there is some power we can refer to as The Dragon. It takes physical form on Planetos as dragons. For some reason the dragons went away, but when it was time for them to come back, presumably to fight the Others, The Dragon needed to be awakened, and Daenerys was key. Waking the drgaon meant Rhaego had no chance. 

But I agree that her growth as khaleesi allowed her to emerge from Viserys’s suffocating shadow. And you are right on the money about Rhaegar. 

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Slayer of Lies

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Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

The first vision in this slayer of lies little triplet of visions in the House of the Undying is very clearly an allusion to Stannis. The second is less clearly an allusion to Aegon, again, as you say. But consider that both of these characters are claimants to the Iron Throne, so I assume the third vision in the slayer of lies triplet of visions must allude to a third and final claimant to the Iron Throne. The only other current (after the War of the Five Kings, as the Second Dance of the Dragons begins) claimant is Euron. Tommen is not really a claimant since he's currently sitting on the Iron Throne, and Daenerys has not yet asserted her claim, although she has stated it from afar. Many believe that Jon will assert, or be compelled into asserting, a claim, and if he is, he could satisfy the third vision in the slayer of lies triplet. His claim could be true if he is not a bastard but the legitimate son of a married Rhaegar and Lyanna, in which case the lie to slay would be his false identity as Jon Snow, natural son of Eddard Stark and Wylla/Ashara/Fishwife from the Sisters. I had believed that Jon was the strongest candidate to be the stone beast based on the overall structure of all the visions presented in the House of the Undying, but I think Euron might make more sense.

I have seen Tyrion put forward as the great stone beast, here and here. I think the theory relies, as you do, on the gargoyle association. since you belive that Daenerys will prove to the world that Tyrion is a Targaryen when he becomes a dragonlord, I assume you believe that blood of the dragon is required to bond with a dragon. I happen to agree, but many dispute that. 

I have a different interpretation of Moqorro’s dragon visions. 

Quote

"Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all.''

Moqorro is foretelling the Second Dance of the Dragons. Old and young are House Targaryen and House Blackfyre. True and false are Daenerys Daughter of Aerys and Aegon son of Rhaegar. Bright and dark are the red dragon and the black dragon. Tyrion is llike the deuteragonist of a classical play. He will bounce between the protagonist and the antagonist in the second act of A Song of Ice and Fire, Daenerys, and Aegon. 

 

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Bride of Fire

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Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. 

The first vision clearly alludes to Daenerys Targaryen’s first night with Khal Drogo. Since Daenerys wed Drogo, and came to love him, we should assume that the other two persons represented in the other two respective visions must be wed to, and loved by, Daenerys. On the other hand, she has wed Hizdahr, but she does not love him, and she loves Daario Naharis, but she has not wed him, and the narrative strongly suggests that she will not wed him. So, for either of these two characters to fit, we must eliminate the other, and eliminate either the marriage element or the love element. If we disregard marriage and retain love as the required element, Daario fits at least bright eyes element of the description. The third vision surely represents Jon Snow, and its inclusion under bride of fire, assuming that the second vision represents Daario, foreshadows that Daenerys will fall in love with Jon. If the second vision does represent Daario, then it obviously foreshadows his death. Standing in the prow of the ship suggests that his death will occur at sea, or perhaps Daenerys will recall her love when she sees a similar figurehead on whatever ship she uses to cross the Narrow Sea. The grey lips suggest that he might die of greyscale. While Aeron seems to fit better withe the vision at this point, I don't believe he fits into the overarching structure of the visions considered in the totality. 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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19 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I did like the rest of the posts. :D

I always enjoy LmL's posts. But I still think Tyrion is not a Targaryen, not because I dislike the idea or discount the clues, but because I feel the author has deliberately made it seem plausible so that he can use the possibility to further explore the characters' perceptions about blood and power, but does not need it to be true to do so, and in fact it would better serve to underscore how divorced perceptions can be from reality if Tyrion is in fact Tywin's son despite his seeming Targness.

I should mention that I also like the entirely irrelevant (because it couldn't be proven in-series) idea of Tyrion being a tetragamic chimera, and thus is both Tywin's son and Aerys' son. 

I agree on the redundancy. Was just pointing out the standard reasoning for the Jon Con argument. There's something to be said for the semantic argument of beast vs dragon. But then there's also the question of whether a bastard Targaryen even counts as a dragon, so...*shrug* We'll find out most of this eventually. I agree on the gargoyle symbolism for Tyrion. 

The mounts have always seemed to me to be pretty straightforward as animals she would ride, not as men she would "mount." She can have sex with men without marrying them so if "mount" is meant to be a euphemism or a bad pun, it wasn't a good choice for the Bride of Fire trilogy. I could however entirely agree that each mount is one she is riding to/when she meets each of her significant husbands/partners, or that they are symbolic of different eras in her life that also correspond to the men who are important to her. 

The one thing does trouble me about my interpretation with regard to the mounts is that it would mean she stops riding Drogon at some point. There are only two reasons I can think of for her to not ride Drogon: 1) she's pregnant or it is otherwise dangerous/unsafe to ride for some physical reason, or 2) Drogon is dead. I don't want Drogon to die, but I think that's the more likely reason she'd have another mount to ride. The only way I can square that with my sentimental attachment to dragons is if Dany sacrifices Drogon in order to save Westeros, which would still be sad but at least would be for a good cause.

Added note on 3c...Jon's likely Targaryen heritage doubles the "bride of fire" meaning. She would be the bride of fire and blood, in marrying a Targaryen who is also her nephew. The Targ Words become way more symbolic with this possibility.

On the subject of blue eyes...I was reading over a scene with Gendry and his eyes are not bright blue but ice blue. Since he's the spitting image of Robert, I'd say this means the Baratheon eyes are not always bright, though they are always blue. In ADwD Daario's eyes look purple when he changes his hair color to purple so we don't know what color his eyes really are. And all of the trueborn Stark kids except Arya have the Tully coloring, including the blue eyes.

You've made a great case for Euron. The only thing against it is the term used is "bright eyes" whereas Euron's eyes are referred to as the bright eye and the dark eye. It's like "his hands" for the valonqar--a detail that may or may not matter, or may not matter the way we think it does. Moqorro mentions "the dark eye" having fallen on Daenerys, and in his comment to Tyrion about the dragons he contrasts "bright and dark" as opposites. That said, Moqorro's views on the issue may not be the same as the Undying Ones' views.

What about Euron coming to her, with one of his brothers' corpses tied to the prow of his ship, or even Jon Connington's? Thus Euron is the husband in question, just not the corpse that symbolizes his appearance in Dany's life. I think there's a good argument to be made for the symbolism here: the silver represents Drogo's entry into her life; the blue rose for Jon (symbolic of R+L); and we can be sure that Euron's arrival anywhere is going to mean corpses in abundance. 

Good work!

Glad you enjoyed them :)

Re Tyrion: I am firmly in camp (natural) Targ, so I think we'll always be at an impasse over that one haha

I agree with you on the semantics point as well. I'd just like to point out the following string of metaphors. Tyrion is referred to as a monster on a number of occasions and, as he himself states, "monsters are dangerous beasts" (ASoS, Tyrion VI). So, he is a monster, a beast and a stone gargoyle. The gargoyles themselves are often described as misshapen (as is Tyrion), and (from what I can remember) the ones described are either dragons, wyverns or hellhounds (on Dragonstone) or could once have been lions (on Winterfell's First Keep). So, regardless of his heritage, the symbolism surrounding Tyrion fits. Which then leads to the question: if it is Tyrion, what lie could Dany slay? His birth is the only one I can think of (although I recognise that I'm biased towards this answer, and this trio only really fits a hidden identities schema).

Re the animals vs men she could have sex with, I don't necessarily believe the two are incompatible. For instance, Dany rides her silver to consummate her marriage with Drogo. If I'm right about the smiling corpse man being Euron, and about him marrying her to get her dragon(s), then she may be riding a dragon into her marriage with Euron. (Re not riding Drogon: If she is kidnapped, for instance, it is possible she may not be able to ride Drogon. Alternatively, and perhaps more plausibly, she rides Drogon to take back the dragon (or dragons) that Euron has stolen, and is entrapped into a marriage with him becuase he's a tricksy and mean man). Finally, Ghost may be the animal mount, and she be the bride of fire to Jon (this was proposed in the Boiled Leather Audio Moment released yesterday for patreon supporters). So I don't think that the two ideas are necessarily mutually exclusive.

Yay for the added note on 3c): Love a bit of double meaning! hahaRe the blue eyes not always being bright but always blue, I believe that holds if you're looking for a relationship between Baratheon eye colours and descriptors. What we are looking for is something that links bright eyes together and how that holds for any potential suitors that Dany may have. As I said, the main thing that linked descriptions of bright eyes was that they were blue i.e. so not all blue eyes are bright, but a heck of a lot of bright eyes are blue. And it so happens that Euron has at least one blue eye.

Bonus blue eye bonanza in spoiler tab: it's entirely irrelevant to the HotU visions but I got sidetracked looking at blue eye stuff so it's in the spoiler tab if anyone wants to get derailed.

Spoiler

 

So I've just been through asearchoficeandfire.com, going over the bright blue eyes references:
Bright blue eyes references - Ice Dragon 1; wights, 5; Edric Storm, 1; Daario, 2; Euron 1; The Others 1
So the majority of the bright blue eyes are icy in nature (7 references to 4), so ice blue eyes may be an extension of this. Indeed, the Others are referenced as having ice blue eyes in the Prologue of AGOT, so overlapping those symbols somewhat. Notably, the eyes of the wights and the Others burn blue, like stars. So:
Blue star eyes - wights, 4; Ice Dragon, 4; Night's Queen, 1
Again, all ice related.

Looking to blue eyes more generally, there are 129 reference, of which 30 are to wight, 25 to Baratheons or bastard descendants and 23 to the Tully eyes, which makes up over half the references to blue eyes. These are also the eyes typically described as bright, or like ice or burning like stars, so I think we can see that, generally speaking, there is supposed to be a link between blue eyes, bright eyes and ice eyes.

 

Re the bright and the dark dichotomy: I think that colour descriptions for eyes and other adjectives can be somewhat independent. So it is possible to have bright blue and bright black eyes, for instance. That is not to say that Euron's eye is not dark in some Sauron-esque fashion, i.e. he has decided to use Dany for some nefarious purpose, but I believe that that can be separated from whether his eyes are literally bright in colour or dark in colour. Moreover, I don't think it would be possible to equate the visions in Moqorro's dream of dragons to descriptions of eyes and eye colour: it seems like that would be a bit too far, even for George. Especially in consideration of bright eyes and blue eyes having such a heavy association with ice, and dragons are the antithesis of that.

I liek the corpse idea very much: TWOW spoiler in tab:

Spoiler

Falia Flowers is on the mast at the minute isn't she? :( poor Falia
Not sure how it ties in to the vision, but still... He has previous for mast-tying

Thanks :) glad you enjoyed it :)

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10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

snip

Hey LM - thanks for reading and commenting :) Much appreciated.

So with regards to your first comment, about the daughter of death, I believe that these three deaths led to statements of fact that became epiphanies for her, with these epiphanies being integral to the waking of the dragons.

With Viserys' death, she notes that Fire cannot kill a dragon (Dany VI, AGoT). This realisation allows her to walk into Drogo's pyre, and that is the key to her fire transformation. This fire transformation ikey to a lot of Lightbringer forging/Azor Ahai symbolism (see this essay from LmL), so in this way it is important for the reintroduction of the dragons.

With Rhaego's death, Mirri Maz Duur was revealed to not have Dany's interests at heart. In doing so, she teaches Daenerys that "only death can pay for life". This epiphany led to Dany realising that death would be needed for the dragon's, hence the sacrifice of MMD. Whether she was actually needed as a sacrifice, or whether enough deaths had occurred already to bring them to life, is debatable: nevertheless, it was this epiphany that enabled her to realise that the dragon eggs could hatch.

And then Rhaegar's death, as I said, led to her realisation that she was the last dragon. In realising that she was the last dragon, then that allowed her to tie together these threads - as the last dragon, she cannot be killed by fire (hence her walk into the pyre, allowing her to become fire-transformed), and she must also wake the dragon (as the fever dream ends up telling her to do).

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14 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Slayer of Lies

The first vision in this slayer of lies little triplet of visions in the House of the Undying is very clearly an allusion to Stannis. The second is less clearly an allusion to Aegon, again, as you say. But consider that both of these characters are claimants to the Iron Throne, so I assume the third vision in the slayer of lies triplet of visions must allude to a third and final claimant to the Iron Throne. The only other current (after the War of the Five Kings, as the Second Dance of the Dragons begins) claimant is Euron. Tommen is not really a claimant since he's currently sitting on the Iron Throne, and Daenerys has not yet asserted her claim, although she has stated it from afar. Many believe that Jon will assert, or be compelled into asserting, a claim, and if he is, he could satisfy the third vision in the slayer of lies triplet. His claim could be true if he is not a bastard but the legitimate son of a married Rhaegar and Lyanna, in which case the lie to slay would be his false identity as Jon Snow, natural son of Eddard Stark and Wylla/Ashara/Fishwife from the Sisters. I had believed that Jon was the strongest candidate to be the stone beast based on the overall structure of all the visions presented in the House of the Undying, but I think Euron might make more sense.

I have seen Tyrion put forward as the great stone beast, here and here. I think the theory relies, as you do, on the gargoyle association. since you belive that Daenerys will prove to the world that Tyrion is a Targaryen when he becomes a dragonlord, I assume you believe that blood of the dragon is required to bond with a dragon. I happen to agree, but many dispute that. 

I have a different interpretation of Moqorro’s dragon visions. 

Moqorro is foretelling the Second Dance of the Dragons. Old and young are House Targaryen and House Blackfyre. True and false are Daenerys Daughter of Aerys and Aegon son of Rhaegar. Bright and dark are the red dragon and the black dragon. Tyrion is llike the deuteragonist of a classical play. He will bounce between the protagonist and the antagonist in the second act of A Song of Ice and Fire, Daenerys, and Aegon. 

 

As you can see from my framework, I don't believe that the second triplet refers to claimants for the Iron Throne, so already we're going off on different tangents. I believe this, mainly because GRRM has set up the entirety of the Game of Thrones as something unimportant in the face of pure evil (the Others), so I'm not sure why he would devote an entire section of a series of prophecies that come to define Dany to a game that he is about to show is pointless. 

Furthermore, to my mind, the slayer of lies prophecies are using picture symbols that are part of a larger web of symbolism used in prophecy in ASoIaF. Euron, to my mind, doesn't fit that pattern. He is never actually described as a beast, which is important from a literary perspective, and he is primarily associated with the colour blue (e.g. shade of the evening, blue eyes, blue lips), which then associates him with ice, not stone.

Finally, assuming I am correct about the second vision in the Bride of Fire section, we run into the problem of the same person appearing twice in the series of visions, which seems redundant. This however assumes I'm correct, which obviously isn't guaranteed at all haha.

I haven't been on the forum as much as I'd have liked so I must have missed those - apologies to everyone I haven't credited in that case. Our earliest interaction between a POV character and Tyrion describes him as a gargoyle, so this must have been an important association that George wanted us to have with Tyrion's character: the fact that it remains as a description right the way through to ADwD suggests that this plan has not altered with the growing of story, so it remains an important factor. As such, I don't see it as unreasonable to base assumptions about Tyrion on his associations with gargoyles, especially given how symbols and visual metaphors are used in Geroge's prophecies.

Regarding dragonblood and dragonriding, I have no strong feelings either way, to be honest.

With regards to the Moqorro prophecy, I have a few ideas but nothing confirmed, set in stone or researched so they're not really worth voicing. I merely pointed out the Moqorro prophecy as part of the A+J=T evidence, in that it would be weird for a non-dragon to be surrounded by all of the dragons. The interpretation itself is irrelevant in this particular instance (alhtough I too see Tyrion as some sort of chaotic neutral at this point - this fits with his stone monkey symbolism too [see the LmL essay titled Tyrion Targaryen]).

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14 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Bride of Fire

snip 

Given that this section is titled Bride of fire I believe this means we can rule out people she isn't married to, hence why I discounted Daario. Moreover, I don't believe it can be Hizdahr either, as he married her in order to get rid of her dragons, not to embrace them: so, she is a bride, but not a bride of fireThe Meereenese Blot does a fantastic job of examining Dany's inner struggle here, and why Daario and Hizdahr are juxtaposed, which has no doubt in part influenced my take on these two characters, their purpose in the novels and their future within the story.

So, if Daario and Hizdahr are off the cards, then we have to go hunting through the symbolism. Hopefully I outlined everything relatively clearly in my initial posting of it, but here's a recap:
- On a ship: links to sailing
- Grey smile: House Greyjoy (so Victarion, Euron or Aeron)
- Bright eyes: these are usually blue or black or mocking (sounds a lot more like Euron)
- Dead/Corpse-like: The Undying Ones are described as corpse-like through their use of the shade of the evening (Euron again)

All of this, to me, adds up to Euron, especially in relation to the eyes and the use of shade of the evening (the former two could be any Greyjoy member likely to turn up nearby). Furthermore, we also know that Euron is marrying Dany with the express purpose of getting a dragon to attain the Iron Throne, so this would link up with both the bride and the fire aspects of this section title.

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Couldn't Stone/Shadow Dragons be a failed attempt by Mel and Stannis to wake the dragons?

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10 minutes ago, Masha said:

Couldn't Stone/Shadow Dragons be a failed attempt by Mel and Stannis to wake the dragons?

Ooh, the spirit of Shireen released unto the world sowing destruction and despair. I like it. Or were you thinking something else? 

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1 hour ago, Archmaester_Aemma said:

 

 

As you can see from my framework, I don't believe that the second triplet refers to claimants for the Iron Throne, so already we're going off on different tangents. I believe this, mainly because GRRM has set up the entirety of the Game of Thrones as something unimportant in the face of pure evil (the Others), so I'm not sure why he would devote an entire section of a series of prophecies that come to define Dany to a game that he is about to show is pointless. 

Furthermore, to my mind, the slayer of lies prophecies are using picture symbols that are part of a larger web of symbolism used in prophecy in ASoIaF. Euron, to my mind, doesn't fit that pattern. He is never actually described as a beast, which is important from a literary perspective, and he is primarily associated with the colour blue (e.g. shade of the evening, blue eyes, blue lips), which then associates him with ice, not stone.

Finally, assuming I am correct about the second vision in the Bride of Fire section, we run into the problem of the same person appearing twice in the series of visions, which seems redundant. This however assumes I'm correct, which obviously isn't guaranteed at all haha.

I haven't been on the forum as much as I'd have liked so I must have missed those - apologies to everyone I haven't credited in that case. Our earliest interaction between a POV character and Tyrion describes him as a gargoyle, so this must have been an important association that George wanted us to have with Tyrion's character: the fact that it remains as a description right the way through to ADwD suggests that this plan has not altered with the growing of story, so it remains an important factor. As such, I don't see it as unreasonable to base assumptions about Tyrion on his associations with gargoyles, especially given how symbols and visual metaphors are used in Geroge's prophecies.

Regarding dragonblood and dragonriding, I have no strong feelings either way, to be honest.

With regards to the Moqorro prophecy, I have a few ideas but nothing confirmed, set in stone or researched so they're not really worth voicing. I merely pointed out the Moqorro prophecy as part of the A+J=T evidence, in that it would be weird for a non-dragon to be surrounded by all of the dragons. The interpretation itself is irrelevant in this particular instance (alhtough I too see Tyrion as some sort of chaotic neutral at this point - this fits with his stone monkey symbolism too [see the LmL essay titled Tyrion Targaryen]).

I disagree with your characterization of the game of the thrones and a Dance with Dragons as less important to the story than the final act. Without the first two acts, the third would be much less compelling. Yes the threat from the far north is perhaps the greatest threat of all, but we have to get from here to there. 

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26 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Ooh, the spirit of Shireen released unto the world sowing destruction and despair. I like it. Or were you thinking something else? 

More like her sacrifice in order to "Wake the dragons" and spell fails

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16 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

<snip

Moqorro is foretelling the Second Dance of the Dragons. Old and young are House Targaryen and House Blackfyre. True and false are Daenerys Daughter of Aerys and Aegon son of Rhaegar. Bright and dark are the red dragon and the black dragon. Tyrion is llike the deuteragonist of a classical play. He will bounce between the protagonist and the antagonist in the second act of A Song of Ice and Fire, Daenerys, and Aegon. 

 

Alternate interpretations exist on the pairings though.

Old dragons: Bloodraven, and anyone else who is old and is a Targaryen but we don't know about (the Tattered Prince as little Maegor's son for example). 

Young dragons: Dany, Aegon, and Jon.

True dragons could mean either true as in Targaryen or as in honest non-betrayers: Jon, Dany, maybe Aegon, maybe Bloodraven (though not if he's the old dragon), any other Targ derivatives in play.

False dragons, again open to either Blackfyres or liars/betrayers: maybe Aegon, maybe Varys, maybe Illyrio, other Targ derivatives.

Bright could mean a descendant of Aerion Brightflame: maybe Aegon, maybe Varys, other Brightflame derivatives.

Dark as Blackfyre would include: maybe Aegon, maybe Illyrio, maybe Daario, maybe Brown Ben Plumm; maybe Varys. Dark as indicating black could mean Jon in his Night's Watch garb, but I think this less likely.

Then there's the question of whether each descriptor is for multiple players or only one. If there's only one old dragon, then it's Bloodraven, and that rules him out from being a false or true dragon. The others could fit any of them but if there's only a single Brightflame descendant my money would be on Varys.

I never really thought about this before, but it's interesting that Moqorro speaks in pairs when you remember Quaithe's warning to Dany about the men who were headed in her direction was also structured that way. Put in pairs, the first two dragons would have to be Bloodraven and Jon. The others could still be flexible but both BR and Jon had mothers with no Targ blood, both joined the Night's Watch, both were elected Lord Commander, both are powerful skinchangers, and both are very much aware of the threat of the Others. The similarities are impossible to dismiss on those two at least.

Agreed on Tyrion. And since we have multiple protagonists and antagonists, he's going to be doing a lot of bouncing.

Edited by Lady Blizzardborn

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