The Doctor's Consort

Jon and Val compendium.

25 posts in this topic

This is a thread where we can collect all foreshadowing and clues from the books that point to Jon and Val ending up together for reasons that further the plot of the main story.

This thread is not for the debate of theories brought together here, which are based on text, SSM's, and interviews; it is only here to list clues and foreshadowing.

There are several other threads in the General section of the forum that are for debate purposes. We also invite you to link us all the theories that you feel deserve to be included, as also to give us feedback of what we might have missed.

 

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Val stood beside him, tall and fair. They had crowned her with a simple circlet of dark bronze, yet she looked more regal in bronze than Stannis did in gold.

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“Did you follow me as well?” Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him. “Snow,” it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.

They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely

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You have my word, Lord Snow. I will be a proper wildling princess for your queen.

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Val kissed him lightly on the cheek. "You have my thanks Lord Snow. For the half-blind horse, the salt cod, the free air. For hope." Their breath mingled, a white mist in the air.

 

 

Edited by Jon's Queen Consort

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Aah, I love Val.

I love Val's flirt with Jon. Even Jon clumsily flirts back. Jon's got serious hots for this gal but he... er... knows nothing. About flirting, or Val or anything.

I'll probably abstain from commenting on this thread from now on, as it seems to be made for Jon x Val shippers, and dissenters will get short shirft and their opinions will not be tolerated.

Carry on.

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19 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

Aah, I love Val.

I love Val's flirt with Jon. Even Jon clumsily flirts back. Jon's got serious hots for this gal but he... er... knows nothing. About flirting, or Val or anything.

I'll probably abstain from commenting on this thread from now on, as it seems to be made for Jon x Val shippers, and dissenters will get short shirft and their opinions will not be tolerated.

Carry on.

The thread that you can discuss about about Jon and Val ship is 

this is just a list.

 

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Aah, pardons, I misunderstood. I hope my inane remarks won't spoil your endeavour. Sorry.

Edited by talvikorppi
stupidity

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I don't think this is a "shipping" thread at all. Shipping, by definition, is based on fan-fiction with a reader's personal interest as the main factor, not what is consistent within the story.

 

What makes me think Jon and Val need each other... well, many things, but to start, the Pink Letter. Whoever wrote the letter, whether it be Ramsay, Stannis, Mance, or Moon Boy, they see long term value in her.

  • I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want his wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.

Whoever the author is, they want Val (and baby Aemon Steelsong and/or Monster). Why? Well, because we learn this from about Stannis...

  • Sam reddened. King Stannis had plans for Val, he knew; she was the mortar with which he meant to seal the peace between the northmen and the free folk. "I don't have time for archery today, I need to go see Jon."

If Val was a "throw away" character, then I don't see how George would have sent her to carry out a rather large mission that has a direct impact on the greater part of the story. Jon (George) sent her out to gather the lost wildlings, and she did, and she succeeded and returned on time... with Ghost at her side!!!!:wub:  (as mentioned above)

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@Jon's Queen Consort  I was unsure whether to send these to you first...

Multi-part clues

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall.... ASoS Jon XII (early in the chapter)

Jon chanced to look up and saw Val standing in her tower window. I'm sorry, he thought. I'm not the man to steal you out of there. ...ASoS Jon XII (late in the chapter)

(I'm sorry can be taken two ways : an apology to the captive Val, or sorry for himself.. either, or both simultaneously)

 

“You broke the heart of the wildling princess, Slayer,” said Pyp. Of late, Val had taken to watching them from the window of her chamber in the King’s Tower. “She was looking for you.” 
“She was not! Don’t say that!” Sam had only spoken to Val twice, when Maester Aemon called upon her to make sure the babes were healthy. The princess was so pretty that he oft found himself stammering and blushing in her presence. 
“Why not?” asked Pyp. “She wants to have your children. Maybe we should call you Sam the Seducer.”
 ...AFFC , Samwell I

and after a brief further conversation, it continues...

Grenn agreed. “His (Jon's) duties don’t keep him from the yard. More days than not, he’s out there fighting someone.” 
That was true, Sam had to admit. Once, when Jon came to consult with Maester Aemon, Sam had asked him why he spent so much time at swordplay
. ...AFFC, Samwell I

(Val is actually watching the practice yard for Jon..she may already want have his children..or that could be foreshadowing of things to come. .. I could suggest a bit of risque foreshadowing about "so much time at swordplay" , but I leave that up to you.)

 

Wolves and women wed for life,” Haggon often said. “You take one, that’s a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you’re part of him. ...ADWD, Prologue

Ghost was part of him. ...ADWD, Jon III

Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.
They look as though they belong together.
 ...ADWD, Jon XI

( Haggon equates wolves with women and describes the warg  bond and equates it with marriage. Later Jon verifies his bond with Ghost ... Val and Ghost look as though they belong together ..and Jon is part of Ghost.  Wolves and women... Take = steal..):rolleyes::D:D

Edited by bemused

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I agree with @The Fattest Leech. Stannis, regardless of whether you believe he wrote the pink letter or not, seems to want to see them together. He wants Jon as his loyal Lord of Winterfell, a son of Eddard Stark to rally the North to his cause etc. And he has plans for Val, as Sam reveals, to be the mortar that seals a peace between the North and the Freefolk, which obviously means ha wants Val to marry an important northern lord. No house is more important in the North than House Stark. So Stannis, a Jon/Val shipper, confirmed.

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Further clues to the Val / Wolf / Jon connections and an addition :

Keep in mind there are a number of clues that hint at an innate (magical) connection between Jon and the Wall. Perhaps the most obvious - Jon Snow could see his own reflection dimly inside the icy walls. ...ADWD, Jon X
( These are the walls of Cregan's ice cell, which is carved into The Wall. So Jon is reflected inside the Wall itself.. Jon is part of Ghost, Ghost is part of Jon.. so with the Wall. When the wildlings swear to Jon, they are (magically speaking) in effect swearing to the Wall.)

Looking back at ADWD, Jon III...

Val stood on the tower roof, gazing up at the Wall. 
(We can already deduce that she has been gazing at Jon in the yard from AFFC, Sam I)

Moving on in the chapter..

She looks lonely, Jon thought. Lonely, and lovely. ..<snip>...
Lonely and lovely and lethal, Jon Snow reflected, and I might have had her. Her, and Winterfell, and my lord father’s name. Instead he had chosen a black cloak and a wall of ice.

(Lonely, lovely and lethal.. words we might use to describe a (lone) wolf, evokes Haggon's woman/wolf similarity)

And still  later... I should be walking the ice. The Wall is mine

Near the end of the chapter comes ..."Ghost is part of me" as mentioned above..

(so we may need to extend thoughts of "Jon,Ghost and Val belong together" to .. "Jon, Ghost, Val and the magic of the Wall belong together" )

ETA : I'm taking my thoughts about Stannis to the discussion thread.

Edited by bemused

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Stannis deduces that Jon is fond of Val, when Jon asks him if Val may be permitted to take the babe to see Mance. 

I doubt Stannis would just decide Jon is fond of her if there were not some tell in his face or mannerisms when he talks about her. It would be a bit random to just say, oh you like this person, upon the mere mention of a favour they have asked you. 

Stannis making this statement implies that Jon gave some hint in his face of his feelings for Val. 

I'll have more but I remember thinking aye up! at that one. It's an early clue and a subtle one.  

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Here's bit more... From ASoS, Jon X.. Tormund to Jon : ..."That Longspear stole me daughter. Munda, me little autumn apple. Took her right out o' my tent with all four o' her brothers about. Toregg slept through it, the great lout, .."

When we come to ADWD, Jon III...  Tormund to Jon : ".. Best steal her quick, before Toregg wakes up and takes her first.”

(So this is not a suggestion to steal; the theft is already underway and Jon best hurry while Toregg is, once again, asleep.. I think this puts Toregg in his proper perspective. He's not really a rival.)

A well known one... In their conversation on the ride back Jon informs Val he has removed her from the Kings tower and had the top floor of Hardin's tower (his old digs) made ready for her. She must remain a captive, but symbolically, now his captive , not Stannis'.

Consider what the following visuals may mean to the free folk : First Val appears with Ghost, looking "as though they belong together"... Then, artfully placed throughout the rest of the chapter...

Jon mounted his own horse.
Val fell in beside him.

<snip>..conversation
Tormund’s wildlings watched them pass, peering out from tents and lean-tos beneath leafless
trees.

<snip> ..more conversation

They rode the rest of the way in silence, Ghost loping at their heels.

(This displays willingness on Val's part, while Ghost loping at their heels paints the picture of a couple.)

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In her Nymeria thread The Fattest Leach pointed out that Jon is an Odin character, and we have also previously surmised that Val is a Volva character. Well, who is the ultimate volva?  Freya. And who is Freya really? Frigg, and Frigg is Odin's wife. 

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Here we see Jon has given Val guards of his own men, again reiterating the theme that he has stolen her.

 

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Val waited by the gate in the predawn cold, wrapped up in a bearskin cloak so large it might well have fit Sam. Beside her was a garron, saddled and bridled, a shaggy grey with one white eye. Mully and Dolorous Edd stood with her, a pair of unlikely guards. Their breath frosted in the cold black air.

 

 

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And when she returns. 

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They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.
"Have you been trying to steal my wolf?" he asked her.
3

He asks if she has been trying to steal his wolf, right after that desirous description of her. ghost is Jon, this is him saying are you trying to steal me? as in. He wants her. 

During her time away from him Jon thinks this too. in response to Axell Florent boasting of being after Val, and WF too. 

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If the bastard had wanted Val, all he had to do was ask for her.

He's basically saying all he has to do is ask. If he wants her. Now this is inferring asking Stannis. and she and WF both would be his. but as Jon has noted before anyone who wants Val had best be wanted by her too, or else he'll find his throat slit.  So with that knowledge, who would he have to ask? It implies he knows he can have her because she wants him too. 

 

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One of the things I find fascinating about Jon and Val's relationship is that it's an iceberg.  There are a lot of moments between the two that the readers don't see or only get a brief reference to.  Even though these moments (which are not necessarily flirty or romantic moments) happen mostly off page, I think they are just as important to developing their relationship as the moments we do get to witness  and expect these moments to come to the forefront as their relationship continues.  Examples include:

  • Jon staying with Val and Dalla during the birth of Dalla's son, Dalla's death and Jon taking them back to Castle Black. (I consider this particularly important as I suspect Jon's actions at this time became the foundation from where Val's feelings for him grew.)
  • The baby swap discussions
  • The times Jon sees Val for counsel in regards to the Free Folk (IIRC Jon mentions he has gone to see Val for counsel on the subject on more than one occasion.)
  • Jon overhears Val singing to Monster (Like mother like son, it seems Jon is also attracted to singers given how Ygritte "sang in a low husky voice that stirred him.") 
  • Jon's decision making process that led to him asking Val to serve as an envoy to Tormund as well their discussions about it before Jon VIII, ADWD. 

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@Harlaw's Book the Sequel

I think you make a very good point here. The author takes the time to tell us that Jon & Val have had interactions which we have not been privy to. And I think that especially the time in the tent, experiencing birth is a VERY emotional, and bonding experience. Even if you are not the person birthing or the child's father.  The fact Jon was there tells us he and Val have gone through an extremely bonding experience.   Add to the euphoria everyone in the room experiences at a birth, and the high levels of Oxytocin in the air we then have the moment of grief and horror as Dalla dies.  Experiencing a death together is also an extremely bonding experience.  And it is evident that after these events Jon goes to Val again and again for council.  

I think from these left out scenes we can actually garner a fair bit of information. 

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@Harlaw's Book the Sequel count me in as agreeing with your points and as @The Weirwoods Eyes nicely elaborated on it shows Jon has respect for Val, and she for him, because they have shared a few non-sexual intimate experiences first, instead of just hopping into bed with one another. Gross mushy stuff, basically ;)

Afterall, Jon says in the story that if he wanted Val that way, all he'd have to do is say so, but Jon knows better.

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Will the Free Folk follow Jon and Val after they cross the wall???

Yes, because they already have. Both Gilly and the first wave of "captured" Free Folk kneel and pay homage to Jon as they pass through the wall. Something happened that gave the wildlings the idea that Jon is their new leader, and Val as well. ADWD/Jon III has a ton of clues to this if you want a full re-read.

A Storm of Swords - Jon X

"I've never had a crown on my head or sat my arse on a bloody throne, if that's what you're asking," Mance replied. "My birth is as low as a man's can get, no septon's ever smeared my head with oils, I don't own any castles, and my queen wears furs and amber, not silk and sapphires. I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist. You don't become King-beyond-the-Wall because your father was. The free folk won't follow a name, and they don't care which brother was born first. They follow fighters. When I left the Shadow Tower there were five men making noises about how they might be the stuff of kings. Tormund was one, the Magnar another. The other three I slew, when they made it plain they'd sooner fight than follow."

A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

"He'll be down with the books. My old septon used to say that books are dead men talking. Dead men should keep quiet, is what I say. No one wants to hear a dead man's yabber." Dolorous Edd went off muttering of worms and spiders.
When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. "You don't need to take a knee for me. That's just for kings."

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

 Soon or late, however, Tormund Giantsbane would assault the Wall again, and when that hour came Jon wondered whose side Stannis's new-made subjects would choose. You can give them land and mercy, but the free folk choose their own kings, and it was Mance they chose, not you.

And we know that Stannis and everyone else, except Jon ;), knows that Val is not a wildling princess the way those south of the wall think of it. But the Free Folk bow to her anyway as Stannis puts her on the platform next to him as Mel burns "Mance"/Rattleshirt. Clearly Stannis sees the power in Val.

Before I get to the Val on the platform idea, I want to give a quick reminder of Mel and her tricks and wise (wo)men. We know Val is a "wise woman" per Dalla and Mance, and also how Mel is associated with smells when magic is being cast:

  1. "Mummers change their faces with artifice," the kindly man was saying, "and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes,
  2. ADWD/ Jon VI: In the shadow of the Wall, the direwolf brushed up against his fingers. For half a heartbeat the night came alive with a thousand smells, and Jon Snow heard the crackle of the crust breaking on a patch of old snow. Someone was behind him, he realized suddenly. Someone who smelled warm as a summer day.
    When he turned he saw Ygritte.
  3. ASOS/ Davos III: "With a smile and swirl of scarlet skirts, she was gone. Only her scent lingered after."
Then we get to the fMance/Rattleshirt burning. This is sending the message from Melisandre to the Wildlings that you submit, or you burn. Sound familiar?:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

His words fell on deaf ears. Stannis had remained unmoved. The law was plain; a deserter's life was forfeit.
Beneath the weeping Wall, Lady Melisandre raised her pale white hands. "We all must choose," she proclaimed. "Man or woman, young or old, lord or peasant, our choices are the same." Her voice made Jon Snow think of anise and nutmeg and cloves. She stood at the king's side on a wooden scaffold raised above the pit. "We choose light or we choose darkness. We choose good or we choose evil. We choose the true god or the false."
(and then Melisandre burns fMance)

But what is Val doing in this scene??? Why, she is behaving as a wise woman and she is already dressed and crowned a queen and she will not weep or look away. Later in the story, Val mentions that she knows Mel's tricks. I think here Val knows that fMance is actually Rattleshirt burning...

He [Stannis] is stone and she [Mel] is flame. ... Val stood beside him, tall and fair. They had crowned her with a simple circlet of dark bronze, yet she looked more regal in bronze than Stannis did in gold. Her eyes were grey and fearless, unflinching. Beneath an ermine cloak, she wore white and gold. Her honey-blond hair had been done up in a thick braid that hung over her right shoulder to her waist. The chill in the air had put color in her cheeks.

(and then a few lines later)

Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. She will not weep nor look away. Jon wondered what Ygritte would have done in her place. The women are the strong ones.

And then Stannis gives this charming piece of advice to the cold, naked, freezing, starving wildlings. No wonder they bent the knee and burned weirwood sticks:

"Westeros has but one king," said Stannis. His voice rang harsh, with none of Melisandre's music. "With this sword I defend my subjects and destroy those who menace them. Bend the knee, and I promise you food, land, and justice. Kneel and live. Or go and die. The choice is yours." He slipped Lightbringer into its scabbard, and the world darkened once again, as if the sun had gone behind a cloud. "Open the gates."
"OPEN THE GATES," bellowed Ser Clayton Suggs, in a voice as deep as a warhorn...
"Come," urged Melisandre. "Come to the light … or run back to the darkness." In the pit below her, the fire was crackling. "If you choose life, come to me."

(and then Jon thinks this)

And they came. Slowly at first, some limping or leaning on their fellows, the captives began to emerge from their rough-hewn pen. If you would eat, come to me, Jon thought. If you would not freeze or starve, submit.

But we know that Jon knows the Free Folk will not submit to Stannis, but what do the Free Folk do instead, they are kneeling to Val up on the platform. The Free Folk just saw their "king" burned, and their "queen" Dalla is dead. That leaves Val as a next "in line" since Val is closely associated with Mance and they are in dire shape. Val did not chose to be their leader, as is the Free Folk way, instead they chose her and bow to her:

Sigorn was the first to kneel before the king. The new Magnar of Thenn was a younger, shorter version of his father—lean, balding, clad in bronze greaves and a leather shirt sewn with bronze scales. Next came Rattleshirt in clattering armor made of bones and boiled leather, his helm a giant's skull. Under the bones lurked a ruined and wretched creature with cracked brown teeth and a yellow tinge to the whites of his eyes. A small, malicious, treacherous man, as stupid as he is cruel. Jon did not believe for a moment that he would keep faith. He wondered what Val was feeling as she watched him kneel, forgiven. (TeeHee, Val knows!)
Lesser leaders followed. Two clan chiefs of the Hornfoot men, whose feet were black and hard. An old wisewoman revered by the peoples of the Milkwater. A scrawny dark-eyed boy of two-and-ten, the son of Alfyn Crowkiller. Halleck, brother to Harma Dogshead, with her pigs.

Having knelt, the wildlings shuffled past the ranks of the black brothers to the gate. Jon had detailed Horse and Satin and half a dozen others to lead them through the Wall with torches. On the far side, bowls of hot onion soup awaited them, and chunks of black bread and sausage. Clothes as well: cloaks, breeches, boots, tunics, good leather gloves. They would sleep on piles of clean straw, with fires blazing to keep the chill of night at bay. This king was nothing if not methodical. Soon or late, however, Tormund Giantsbane would assault the Wall again, and when that hour came Jon wondered whose side Stannis's new-made subjects would choose. You can give them land and mercy, but the free folk choose their own kings, and it was Mance they chose, not you.

To summarize, the Free Folk have knelt to Val and chosen her a their leader, instead of kneeling to Stannis and his red queen that is making them burn their gods. I think Stannis knows this because of a few clues later and even in TWOW chapters so far. Jon sends Val out to find the rest of the wildlings with Tormund a few weeks later. That second wave of Free Folk pay homage to Jon as they pass though the wall by way of gifts and valuables, and even giving up their own children.

The Free Folk chose Jon and Val. Even Wun Wun knows this ^_^

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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Last night in the Nymeria/Val thread I was reminded of this phrase in a Jon chapter and I would like to elaborate on all of the mingling going on:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

"He may not heed your words, but he will hear them." Val kissed him lightly on the cheek. "You have my thanks, Lord Snow. For the half-blind horse, the salt cod, the free air. For hope."
Their breath mingled, a white mist in the air. Jon Snow drew back and said, "The only thanks I want is—"
"—Tormund Giantsbane. Aye." Val pulled up the hood of her bearskin. The brown pelt was well salted with grey. "Before I go, one question. Did you kill Jarl, my lord?"
 
Compare to this:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon X

Like so much else, heraldry ended at the Wall. The Thenns had no family arms as was customary amongst the nobles of the Seven Kingdoms, so Jon told the stewards to improvise. He thought they had done well. The bride's cloak Sigorn fastened about Lady Alys's shoulders showed a bronze disk on a field of white wool, surrounded by flames made with wisps of crimson silk. The echo of the Karstark sunburst was there for those who cared to look, but differenced to make the arms appropriate for House Thenn.
The Magnar all but ripped the maiden's cloak from Alys's shoulders, but when he fastened her bride's cloak about her he was almost tender. As he leaned down to kiss her cheek, their breath mingled. The flames roared once again. The queen's men began to sing a song of praise. "Is it done?" Jon heard Satin whisper.
 
So we have the mingling of breath, which is a mingling of words in a marriage as one spouse speaks for the other (in a representative way).
We also have a mingling of kisses on the cheeks and tenderness in physical mannerisms. This shows respect for the other person in at least a subliminal way. It is not often in these books do we see men and women actually being physically tender with each other, even in marriages. This means something.
 
And the last thing I want to point out here as I did in the other thread, is the line about heraldry ending at the wall. Heraldry and sigils seem to be of most importance to the five kingdoms of Westeros. Even Illyrio pokes a little fun about Westerosi sigils when he is speaking with Tyrion. Well, we see Val in a scene that resembles parts of a wedding ceremony (as the Wall sees fit), and she is in a plain brown bear pelt (cloak) that is salted with grey. So we have more mingling, this time with sigil colors. This shows how Val can incorporate herself, and the free folk, in to the customs of Wetseros... but I admit it will take some time.
 
So when Val returns, she seems to have her heraldry sigil situation all figured out. She is of the old gods as is Jon... and Ghost^_^:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

"Did you follow me as well?" Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers.(<more tenderness) The raven cocked its eye at him. "Snow," it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.
They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.
"Have you been trying to steal my wolf?" he asked her.
Edited by The Fattest Leech

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