Heresy 194 Underworld

[Matthew.]

5 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Exactly--two kinds of undead. The Others--transformed somehow. And the Starks--preserved in their frozen hell.

The Starks--sleeping in the frozen hell reserved just for Starks.

I'm thinking that's part of the key to taking down the Others--fight dead with dead--not so much "parallel" Wild Hunts, but opposing Wild Hunts.

Forgive me if I'm bringing up something that's already been covered, but do you suppose we're already seeing hints of this idea with Coldhands? Armed with obsidian, he seems like he'd be a credible threat to the Others, since he won't be put off by the deep winter conditions, and the wights are described as being slow and clumsy.

[Sly Wren]

4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Forgive me if I'm bringing up something that's already been covered, but do you suppose we're already seeing hints of this idea with Coldhands? Armed with obsidian, he seems like he'd be a credible threat to the Others, since he won't be put off by the deep winter conditions, and the wights are described as being slow and clumsy.

I can absolutely see this--an undead figure who isn't mindless (like the wights) or "cold" like the Others. 

36 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

 

@Sly Wren

Have you pondered the notion that possibly not one area or place is the "underworld" but in fact the world Westeros resides in is the underworld? The idea might be a bit crackpot but to be fair my pot kind of shattered all over the forum so I've lost that particular reservation. I mean the whole problem is that everyone keeps saying it needs to be one or the other, you win or you die, it's ice or fire, etc. but it's about ice and fire (I know I'm preaching to the choir here but I gotta say my piece). If all you put out is anger and hatred, holding on to past grudges, that's all you'll get back and a world focused on only death and revenge seems a rather hellish place to live in my view. The mention of the Bracken/Blackwood feud on a larger scale as mentioned upthread.

I'm liking this a lot--and I'm thinking that "Winter" is arguably the time when Westeros becomes a realm of the dead.

Jojen is the only one I can find in the novels pushing (or at least stating) the idea that "the land is one"--it's all one--up and down, hot and cold, earth and water--all of it. Not oppositions, but unity. That's the natural state of things.

So, if it seems like a split between the underworld and the living world is too extreme, that may be part of the problem.

All that said--I do think the Starks are unique. They alone have such a crypt and live with it. Regularly visit it. Have traditions saying at least one Stark always must be in Witnerfell--with its crypt. And the grey of their banners--a liminal color for liminal people on a HUGE liminal space called the crypts.

So--maybe if the Stark dead and the living "abide" in peace, Winter (the complete realm of the dead) stays at bay?

41 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

There's also the Biblical line of when hell overflows the dead will walk the Earth. Perhaps the reason the White Walkers are returning is because the "Upperworld" is losing too many people and ending up in the Underworld that is asoiaf's setting.

Yes--what's happening in the Riverlands kinda seems like the land there is turning into a blood-soaked hell. From the Red Wedding and the War of the 5 Kings onward.

But as for why the Others returned, for now, I'm buying @Voice's take on the fight at the tower of joy--only then do we get anything described as "blue as the eyes of death."

I can't find that phrase anywhere else in the novels--the Others' and wights' eyes are describes a bright like blue stars. Or burning blue. But nothing gets called "blue as the eyes of death." Only those rose petals at the moment Ned fights Arthur and Arthur's "alive with light" sword (the last two clear things Ned sees before the "rush of steel and shadow" of the fight).

 Seems like that really might be a moment when something . . . broke.

[Brad Stark]

We've all assumed something happened to cause magic to come back.  What if the maesters did something to supress magic?  They hated magic and we have hints they were responsible for the deaths of the last dragons.   What if whatever they did is just wearing off?

[ravenous reader]

3 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Hey everyone, Danny boy back! Sorry for my outburst last time, didn't mean to cause any problems for anyone but as Baelor Breakspear said, "One need not intend harm to do it." People keep telling me not to apologize but I've never been particularly good at doing what I'm told  So I apologize sincerely and profusely. Whether you accept that apology or not is your choice of course and I can't really blame anyone who wouldn't want to accept it.

I know you intended no harm -- that is the main point.  I mean this in earnest.  Welcome back!  

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I've been trying to contact mods to figure out the best way to adjust my profile picture but have received radio silence. Anyone know a good site to use for importing an uploaded image through the URL option? Feel free to PM, no need to clutter up the thread with that answer.

To say I went a little nuts would be the understatement of a lifetime. My brain kind of broke and like the Japanese process of Kintsugi I'm looking forward to explaining what went down and how I broke (but not too much -- there were some really paranoid, delusional thoughts going on and I don't care to spread those without some care and distance from the event).

You don't need to explain.  Don't dwell on what's not real.  And -- last but not least -- please sleep more than I do!

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It's a part of my life now and I wouldn't be able to see or understand things the way I do now if this whole thing didn't occur. It actually all came to a head when I totaled my car. Don't fret though! I walked away with only minor cuts on my hands. I'm just glad to be alive and have my sanity, since I get how thin that line is now.

I'm sorry.  It's a thin line for all of us, though we may not recognize it.

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Just a parting idea and some fun food for thought: I'm pretty sure it was LmL who called the folks here Hereseers so I'm guessing it's somewhat accepted that we're Martin's greenseers/priests trying to understand and scry through his world by way of the books (which are just trees, his weirwood network). Do you realize how we're doing that though? We're using monitors and cell phones -- an artificial light protected by a piece of glass. We're using glass candles to commune across mountains, valleys, and seas!

That is a disturbing thought!

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P.S. Wow I use parentheses way too much. I would totally need an editor if I ever wanted to write anything for real. Like damn.

 

I use dashes too much, and inappropriately.

Take care. 

 

[LynnS]

@Cowboy Dan  Glad to see you back safe!  I really enjoyed reading your post.  You made me laugh and smile with my eyes.

[ravenous reader]

12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

@Cowboy Dan  Glad to see you back safe!  I really enjoyed reading your post.  You made me laugh and smile with my eyes.

  Well said.  'Smile with your eyes'...unlike Littlefinger!

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

We've all assumed something happened to cause magic to come back.  What if the maesters did something to supress magic?  They hated magic and we have hints they were responsible for the deaths of the last dragons.   What if whatever they did is just wearing off?

I don't know if there's any one thing the maesters may have done that would suppress magic (besides killing dragons), but I do think there are some ways they could potentially diminish the influence of magic, or even prevent its return.

Using Aeron's contempt for the maesters and their increasing impact on Iron Islands culture as a model, I wonder if the Citadel might have had a similar influence on those houses that kept/keep the old gods. For example, might they have influenced those that keep the old gods to gradually move away from practicing blood sacrifice to the weirwood?

At a minimum, by raising lord and ladies to be skeptical of the supernatural (as we see expressed by Eddard), they may have had an erosive effect on the knowledge that has been passed on in ancient houses.

[LmL]

25 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I don't know if there's any one thing the maesters may have done that would suppress magic (besides killing dragons), but I do think there are some ways they could potentially diminish the influence of magic, or even prevent its return.

Using Aeron's contempt for the maesters and their increasing impact on Iron Islands culture as a model, I wonder if the Citadel might have had a similar influence on those houses that kept/keep the old gods. For example, might they have influenced those that keep the old gods to gradually move away from practicing blood sacrifice to the weirwood?

At a minimum, by raising lord and ladies to be skeptical of the supernatural (as we see expressed by Eddard), they may have had an erosive effect on the knowledge that has been passed on in ancient houses.

Oh absolutely, no question. The maesters are also the tutors for all of them, so they have a huge hand in shaping the worldview of the houses they serve. Over time? No question they would eventually move any house they served away from blood sacrifice, that sort of thing.  Basically, they acknowledge magic existed - once -  but they're basically like "nothing more to see here folks, show is over." 

You can make a decent case that they are right and that their motives are good. If magic really cause things like the Hammer of the Waters, the Doom, and the Long Night... it definitely seems to me like Martin is using magic as a metaphor for technology. It's all the fire of the Gods really. You can get burnt that way, as this is more or less Luwin's tone in AGOT when he warns them about dueling with glass swords. 

As literary device, the maesters work very well to make the Medieval World a bit more relatable to modern people. It's basically a primitive form of the modern scientific viewpoint, and including it as such a prominent feature anchors this fantasy world with human reaction that seems realstic. It's how out modern skeptical consciousness would react to the sight of a miracle or talk or miracles. 

Here's what I think is interesting about the maesters. When they started off, the early maesters consulted with the children of the forest. The children were the ones to teach the maesters to communicate with ravens That raises interesting questions... In my opinion, an establishment like the Citadel which is still in existence today would had to have been created after the long night, because the long night would have been an extreme cultural bottleneck, through which very few if any institutions would have been able to survive. Instead, The Citadel makes more sense as the first place where mankind tried to gather whatever information and learning they might have been able to collect after the long night, as humankind was trying to get up off the mat.

And under the circumstances, I think, we had the early maesters of the Citadel Consulting with the children of the forest, and that makes me wonder what the children were telling them. The one exception to the cultural bottleneck is the weirwoodnet, so whatever the children wanted to tell humankind they could have. It's very likely that the early learning and thinking of the Citadel was shaped by the children of the forest. But obviously, that bond was broken at some point - now the Citadel is distinctly against magic. It's possible that that change didn't even happen until after the Targaryen came. It might have simply been a reaction to the dragonlords.

Whenever the change occurred, it's interesting that at the beginning they conversed and learned from the children of the forest, but they now are working against the idea of a magical world. And from the perspective of the children... What an opportunity for propaganda.

[Black Crow]

13 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Forgive me if I'm bringing up something that's already been covered, but do you suppose we're already seeing hints of this idea with Coldhands? Armed with obsidian, he seems like he'd be a credible threat to the Others, since he won't be put off by the deep winter conditions, and the wights are described as being slow and clumsy.

I have a very strong suspicion that this is why Jon needs to be dead; and this in turn, to sing an old song, supports the idea that dealing with the Others requires a son of Winterfell rather than a son of Valyria.

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

 

I've been trying to contact mods to figure out the best way to adjust my profile picture but have received radio silence. Anyone know a good site to use for importing an uploaded image through the URL option? Feel free to PM, no need to clutter up the thread with that answer.

 

Just go into your profile, click on the picture and import away - I use an image already saved in my files rather that directly imported from another site.

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

We've all assumed something happened to cause magic to come back.  What if the maesters did something to supress magic?  They hated magic and we have hints they were responsible for the deaths of the last dragons.   What if whatever they did is just wearing off?

I'd be more inclined to wonder whether its more like the question of whether the Others come with the cold or whether they bring the cold. I think it may be more of a tidal thing, waxing and waning. The pyromancers were certainly of the view that magic went from the world with the dragons and ask whether their spells are now working because dragons are back. That could be interpreted as killing dragons kills magic, but it might also be arguable that the maesters were able to kill off the dragons precisely because the magic was already weakening.

Going on from there, or rather going back to the Long Night, we obviously have a surging tide of cold magic, but afterwards there seems to be a falling off in magic and when the Andals come to Westeros there are no more Hammers of the Waters, Long Nights or any other working of great magic. Then we get Valyria, the rise of the dragons and all the horrors that brings, but just as the Ice magic culminated in the Long Night, so the Fire magic culminated in the Doom. In both cases, once the surge had blown off there were still flickerings of magic, but it declined and died all the same. Now Ice magic is coming back - yes there are three dragons but the real threat comes from the Ice.

[Melifeather]

12 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Hey everyone, Danny boy back! Sorry for my outburst last time, didn't mean to cause any problems for anyone but as Baelor Breakspear said, "One need not intend harm to do it." People keep telling me not to apologize but I've never been particularly good at doing what I'm told  So I apologize sincerely and profusely. Whether you accept that apology or not is your choice of course and I can't really blame anyone who wouldn't want to accept it.

I will add my voices to the ones that have already welcomed you back and say my own "welcome back"!

12 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

I know @Feather Crystal and I butted heads on the inversion ideas and I have some ideas of my own relating to that but like I was saying I don't think they're incompatible.

Ah, see, I don't recall us "butting heads". I only recall very stimulating exchanges of ideas! I really like your stuff!

12 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

LmL made a joke at some point about a possible Dark Side of the Moon reference. One of my contentions with his view is that the fire/ice moon is the same moon just at different times (full/new moon) and the last spoken line of the album Dark Side of the Moon is, "There's no dark side of the moon really, as a matter of fact, it's all dark," then the album ends/begins with the sound of a beating heart (I think the heart is the source of all magical godheads in GRRM's world, like the heart trees and the flaming heart in the House of the Undying -- I'm guessing that's been discussed before). I think he's re-purposed a lot of Pink Floyd stuff (my fave band that propelled me into philosophy/music and they tap into the same archetypes/ideas as Martin), and the Roger Waters years are all about alienation or "Otherization." I mean the last album with Waters (the Riverlands bastard name btw) is called The Wall for crying out loud! But I digress.

I read a scientific theory about the dark side of the moon and how there may be evidence that it absorbed a second moon...gosh I hope that's right. Sometimes I remember the strangest stuff. I enjoyed the irony of the Pink Floyd connections!

12 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

A great example of the meteor striking the moon is when Jon is defending the Wall against Mance's turtle. They throw down three barrels: the first hits the ice (water), the second hit the Wall (I agree with @LmL that the Wall/Eyrie/etc. are black/white moon meteor material (often referred to as broken toy's, like that of a child) so the barrel striking the Wall is the meteor striking the moon -- metaphorically) and then breaks into a bunch of pebbles and stones, and the third lands true breaking Mance's turtle. The turtle protects a ram, the double meaning for the animal, a nice horned moon symbol.

So there you have an offensive moon meteor shielding the Wall by breaking another offensive moon symbol that's protected by a shield.

This is by far the most interesting passage you've brought up that I had over looked in the books. It could be that the meteor has already hit planetos three times and the Wall protected it, or it's just another metaphor for the three extinction cycles or "swords" that occurred. The Children are credited for the hammer of waters, suspected of creating the white walkers, and I theorize that the last one, the breaking of Nissa Nissa was actually a volcanic eruption.

Pretty Pig has a theory that the origin of the Quartheen fashion of exposing the left breast above the heart is inspired of, not only the Nissa NIssa mythology, but because there were once two mountains together at the Mother of Mountains like Missy's Teats, but then one of them blew off in a volcanic eruption. The thrust of Azor Ahai's sword was into the heart of an active volcano. Now there is only one Mother of Mountains next to a lake called the Womb of the World. I think this is all pretty good evidence that the third extinction cycle of Westeros was from a volcano, and the breaking of Mance's turtle is symbolic of the land breaking open. Actually, if you think of it, all three "swords" could be attributed to volcanic activity. I seem to recall LmL saying the Long Night could be attributed to fallout like the ash that comes with a volcanic eruption. I'm sure if I've got that wrong LmL can correct me. The hammer of waters then, would be even earlier volcanic activity like earthquake warnings.

[Sly Wren]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I have a very strong suspicion that this is why Jon needs to be dead; and this in turn, to sing an old song, supports the idea that dealing with the Others requires a son of Winterfell rather than a son of Valyria.

YUP! And who better to "wake the sleepers" that the one who woke first? And since those sleepers are in Winterfell, we'd need a son of Winterfell (bastard or not) to wake them.

Also makes me think his bastardy is likely very important for similar reasons--if the Others are tied to Snowgate and potential offerings of bastard children, who better to combat that then a bastard himself?

Maybe.

[Matthew.]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I have a very strong suspicion that this is why Jon needs to be dead; and this in turn, to sing an old song, supports the idea that dealing with the Others requires a son of Winterfell rather than a son of Valyria.

Perhaps, though we also have the example of Melisandre being similarly resistant to the cold - something we might speculate would be true of Beric and Stoneheart as well - so I consider it an open question as to how the books will handle Jon's resurrection, and his place in the magical scheme of things.

I actually expect a rather explosive final arc, where all sorts of things we've seen along the way - wildfire, the resurrected, Valyrian steel, etc. - return in the final arc to play a role in humanity's resistance. I wouldn't be surprised if we have many places being attacked concurrently by the wight horde, assuming the Wall falls.

[Matthew.]

11 hours ago, LmL said:

You can make a decent case that they are right and that their motives are good. If magic really cause things like the Hammer of the Waters, the Doom, and the Long Night... it definitely seems to me like Martin is using magic as a metaphor for technology. It's all the fire of the Gods really. You can get burnt that way, as this is more or less Luwin's tone in AGOT when he warns them about dueling with glass swords. 

This is how I interpret the maesters as well. While they're being manipulative, I don't view it as an insidious conspiracy, I think it's perfectly legitimate to fear the consequences of humans utilizing magic. While there's the more substantial threat of things like dragons, Others, the Doom and the Long Night, even things like glass candles and greenseers are deeply unsettling--who wants to live in a world where people can invade your dreams, or maybe even steal your body?

[Durran Durrandon]

On 1/14/2017 at 7:33 AM, Frey family reunion said:

I think you're right about the symbolism, but the two moon hypothesis gives me a bit of a pause.  We know of only one mention of one culture that spoke of a time when there was two moons in the sky.  I would think, every culture would have this legend if in fact two moons were in the sky.  And if one moon was utterly destroyed, I don't think there would be anything left on the planet to ever tell the tale of the lost moon to future generations.  Likewise, in our current story, if the moon is destroyed and then rains down on the planet, once again, game over no dreams of spring.

 

 

On 1/14/2017 at 9:18 AM, JNR said:

Of course you're completely right about all that.  A shattered moon would devastate all or virtually all life on the planet, beyond any possible doubt. 

It's just unimaginable to anyone familiar with the science that civilization would continue and human beings would be thriving a scant eight thousand years later. 

The splendid Endor Holocaust Event theory discusses all this in some detail.  Death Star blows up, cuddly Ewoks go bye-bye in the inevitable cataclysm because all life on Endor concludes (and the fans cheer from sea to shining sea).

Of course, it also isn't possible for a comet to shatter a moon.  It's just a question of relative masses.

I think these objections are rooted in concerns that Martin is particularly concerned about the science. I don't think that is so . Fans will often point out that Martin has written a fair amount of science fiction, but I think the type of science fiction matters. It seems to me that all of his material science fiction or fantasy is rooted in a speculate fiction approach. His concern is the human reaction to the spectacular scenarios  he envisions, and not the nitty gritty of science. He populates his science fiction worlds characters who have telekinetic and telepathic powers, with no real scientific explanation. It has all the scientific legitimacy of the X-Men, really. That isn't a critique, it's just not the point of his writing. So if the moon exploded, we shouldn't expect an attempt to give the most scientifically accurate explanation possible as to what would occur, as in Neal Stephenson's Seven Eves. Yes, the debris should super heat the atmosphere killing all life on the surface., but that wasn't even the most popular hypothesis in the 90's when Martin started writing this, which would have been a nuclear winter scenario. And no, a regular comet shouldn't be able to shatter a moon, but regular comets aren't red. This is clearly a magic comet, and a magic moon, and magic explosion, that had magical consequences. So, I think Martin has just taken the liberty of declaring the explosion cataclysmic, without making it an absolute extinction event.

As for the whether or not any other culture has the myth of the two moons, we haven't been to Asshai. We haven't been to Yi Ti. The oldest culture we have visited is Qarth. Plus as @LmL has stated, there are certainly other myths that have this symbolic imagery.

[hiemal]

Questions and Heresies on the Passage, Measurement, and Recording of Time:

(I've been choking of this seed for a while now, but am not a gardener like so many of the talented posters I see in this thread and it its precursors so I spit it up here and hope it finds purchase.)

The distinction between narrative descriptions that point to errors in timekeeping likely caused by either great antiquity or the inevitable imprecision that would creep in when the seasons themselves and even the day/night cycle are disrupted and those that seemingly point to actual instances of time itself being out of joint- such as the Bridge of Dreams incident and the weird anachronisms that keep popping up like stone age cultures being startlingly close geographically bronze, iron, and steel users (not to mention dinosaurs and mammoths...) is becoming, for me, increasingly blurred.

Anyone else been thinking along these lines?

Just one more quick thought on these lines- at one point some of the Yunkish commanders are described as breeding human soldiers for certain traits and this is discussed as being an ongoing project during their own lifetimes- a particularly strange claim for the sixteen-year-old Girl General. Am I reading too much into this?

 

[Black Crow]

58 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Perhaps, though we also have the example of Melisandre being similarly resistant to the cold - something we might speculate would be true of Beric and Stoneheart as well - so I consider it an open question as to how the books will handle Jon's resurrection, and his place in the magical scheme of things.
 

Melisandre seems to have more than enough heat inside her to fight rather than disregard the cold, but once again although she looks more alive that Coldhands does, she does have those "unearthly red eyes" - instead of starry blue ones?

[Black Crow]

3 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Questions and Heresies on the Passage, Measurement, and Recording of Time:

(I've been choking of this seed for a while now, but am not a gardener like so many of the talented posters I see in this thread and it its precursors so I spit it up here and hope it finds purchase.)

The distinction between narrative descriptions that point to errors in timekeeping likely caused by either great antiquity or the inevitable imprecision that would creep in when the seasons themselves and even the day/night cycle are disrupted and those that seemingly point to actual instances of time itself being out of joint- such as the Bridge of Dreams incident and the weird anachronisms that keep popping up like stone age cultures being startlingly close geographically bronze, iron, and steel users (not to mention dinosaurs and mammoths...) is becoming, for me, increasingly blurred.

Anyone else been thinking along these lines?

Just one more quick thought on these lines- at one point some of the Yunkish commanders are described as breeding human soldiers for certain traits and this is discussed as being an ongoing project during their own lifetimes- a particularly strange claim for the sixteen-year-old Girl General. Am I reading too much into this?

 

As it happens the theme of the upcoming Heresy 195 will be the timelines 

[hiemal]

10 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

As it happens the theme of the upcoming Heresy 195 will be the timelines 

I will be there with bells on.