Heresy 194 Underworld

[LmL]

58 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

As it happens the theme of the upcoming Heresy 195 will be the timelines 

That should be fun, I have a pretty simple theory about the timeline. But I'll wait for the next threat like a good little boy!

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Durran Durrandon said:

 

I think these objections are rooted in concerns that Martin is particularly concerned about the science. I don't think that is so . Fans will often point out that Martin has written a fair amount of science fiction, but I think the type of science fiction matters. It seems to me that all of his material science fiction or fantasy is rooted in a speculate fiction approach. His concern is the human reaction to the spectacular scenarios  he envisions, and not the nitty gritty of science. He populates his science fiction worlds characters who have telekinetic and telepathic powers, with no real scientific explanation. It has all the scientific legitimacy of the X-Men, really. That isn't a critique, it's just not the point of his writing. So if the moon exploded, we shouldn't expect an attempt to give the most scientifically accurate explanation possible as to what would occur, as in Neal Stephenson's Seven Eves. Yes, the debris should super heat the atmosphere killing all life on the surface., but that wasn't even the most popular hypothesis in the 90's when Martin started writing this, which would have been a nuclear winter scenario. And no, a regular comet shouldn't be able to shatter a moon, but regular comets aren't red. This is clearly a magic comet, and a magic moon, and magic explosion, that had magical consequences. So, I think Martin has just taken the liberty of declaring the explosion cataclysmic, without making it an absolute extinction event.

As for the whether or not any other culture has the myth of the two moons, we haven't been to Asshai. We haven't been to Yi Ti. The oldest culture we have visited is Qarth. Plus as @LmL has stated, there are certainly other myths that have this symbolic imagery.

Yes, obviously I agree, and I would again remind people to consider the Doom. We don't know exactly how the volcanic eruption was set off - but we do know that the valerians seem to have used Magic to contain the volcanoes and prevent them from exploding for 5000 years. When they did lose control - whether it was due to assassinations by The Faceless Men, as we are led to believe, or some other internecine struggle between Valerian factions, or maybe some Jr magician watching the volcano just screwed up - whatever the case, when it blew up it wasn't just a volcanic eruption. 400 years later, we have a magically toxic fallout zone. I think it's pretty easy to see that the most extreme forces of nature are deeply intertwined with magic, and it clearly establishes the pattern of Martin taking a natural disaster and pumping it up with magic to make it appropriate for a fantasy story. Honestly, I don't think it's that complicated. 

You're also quite right to point out that his science fiction is no more technical than Star Wars, perhaps even less so. It's really more fantasy, just set in a Sci-Fi background. It's clearly, and by his own admission, a call out to older science fiction, before science went and figured everything out. Inside of the realm of Science Fiction, they have several categories to describe how accurate and scientific it is Dash hard sci-fi is the kind of stuff that is expected to do a bunch of research and be as technically accurate as possible. Martin's science fiction is clearly the opposite of this Kama so it makes absolutely no sense to hold up his fantasy work to the rigours of a hard sci-fi novels. If we want to be technical, the Doom should have caused a long night. The Toba explosion of 75000 BCE was thought to darken the skies for 6 to 10 years, and that was only one volcano although it was obviously supermassive. The Doom was an entire peninsula of volcanoes erupting at once - that probably should have caused a small volcanic winter, but it didn't. Why? Because it didn't suit the storytelling purposes, that's really the reason.

What he's doing by infusing the Natural Forces with magic is really just a continuation of classical mythology, where the forces of nature are always perceived as gods and goddesses.

[Black Crow]

20 minutes ago, LmL said:

Yes, obviously I agree, and I would again remind people to consider the Doom. We don't know exactly how the volcanic eruption was set off - but we do know that the valerians seem to have used Magic to contain the volcanoes and prevent them from exploding for 5000 years...

What he's doing by infusing the Natural Forces with magic is really just a continuation of classical mythology, where the forces of nature are always perceived as gods and goddesses.

But once again we have to remember that statement by GRRM that the dodgy seasons have a magical cause rather than a scientific one - or a natural one if you prefer. Hence my suggestion that we should take the statement literally and that both the Long Night and the Doom were in fact down to Ice magic and Fire magic culminating in a massive release of energy before dying down again to await the next cycle.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

I will be there with bells on.

Ser Spitball?  Forging my tinfoil link at the Citadel?  God, that makes me laugh...  I'll be there too.  Come for the brains, stay for the humor!

[LmL]

6 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

But once again we have to remember that statement by GRRM that the dodgy seasons have a magical cause rather than a scientific one - or a natural one if you prefer. Hence my suggestion that we should take the statement literally and that both the Long Night and the Doom were in fact down to Ice magic and Fire magic culminating in a massive release of energy before dying down again to await the next cycle.

I would agree, and I am saying the moon destruction simply served as the mechanism for such. A meteor impact doesn't change the length of the seasons, does it? There has to be something more - a magical component, as I have argued from the beginning. The legend of the sword Dawn gives us a clue that meteors can be magical in ASOIAF, as does the black stone of the bloodstone emperor. We are given clues that the comet might be magical, and as @Durran Durrandon and I have often pointed out, natural comets are never red, with occasional localized exceptions due to atmospheric conditions.I really do think it is pretty straightforward - just as nature forces of ice and fire, like cold winds and volcanoes and dragonglass, can be the vehicles through which magic works, so to can meteors and moons. Something about the destruction of the moon and / or the impact of the meteors seems to have disrupted the equilibrium of magic on the planet, and this has lead to the seasonal wierdness. There are a variety of ways which you can hypothesize this to have played out in the specifics, and I expect we will get the reveal on that in the next books. 

Remember, the comet is called "the sword that slays the seasons," and I think that's a big clue. 

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, LmL said:

and this has lead to the seasonal wierdness.

What I find odd about it is that it's not as chaotic as we think.  The Citadel sends a white raven to announce the winter is coming and the summers are as long as the winters.  Luwin is seen studying the stars and taking measurements by Bran.  So there is something to collecting astronomical data that allows the Citadel to make this announcement.    To me that suggests that the planet has a wobble on it's spin that it is predictable and measurable by observation;  data collected over a long period of time.  That's not to dismiss the magical nature of fire and ice on the climate.  Someone, (I think it was Voice) suggested that the weight of the ice cap growing and shrinking had an affect on the planet's rotation and thus, the climate.   But a wobble could also be a result of an impact at some point.

 

[LmL]

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What I find odd about it is that it's not as chaotic as we think.  The Citadel sends a white raven to announce the winter is coming and the summers are as long as the winters.  Luwin is seen studying the stars and taking measurements by Bran.  So there is something to collecting astronomical data that allows the Citadel to make this announcement.    To me that suggests that the planet has a wobble on it's spin that it is predictable and measurable by observation;  data collected over a long period of time.  That's not to dismiss the magical nature of fire and ice on the climate.  Someone, (I think it was Voice) suggested that the weight of the ice cap growing and shrinking had an affect on the planet's rotation and thus, the climate.   But a wobble could also be a result of an impact at some point.

 

Right, and the point with any of these good hypothesis is that the physical elements - be it a wobble or an impact or whatever - wioll only be mechanisms through which magical power flows, and it's also likely that magic was the lever which unbalanced the forces of nature. If there is ever to be en ending of the Long Night by the deeds of man, that by necessity will require mankind to use magic to affect the cycle of the seasons. Even the wobble thing doesn't quit explain it, because from year to year, the lengths of the seasons change seemingly at random. And I don't think the correlation between the winter and summer of a given year is perfect by any means.  

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, LmL said:

Right, and the point with any of these good hypothesis is that the physical elements - be it a wobble or an impact or whatever - wioll only be mechanisms through which magical power flows, and it's also likely that magic was the lever which unbalanced the forces of nature. If there is ever to be en ending of the Long Night by the deeds of man, that by necessity will require mankind to use magic to affect the cycle of the seasons. Even the wobble thing doesn't quit explain it, because from year to year, the lengths of the seasons change seemingly at random. And I don't think the correlation between the winter and summer of a given year is perfect by any means.  

If it's random, how can it be predictable?  There would be no white ravens from the Citadel.  This is knowledge exclusive to the Citadel and random to everyone else.   

[Frey family reunion]

On 1/14/2017 at 11:02 AM, LmL said:

This is a great idea but the problem with it is that it does not fit the symbolism of any of the lightbringer forging scenes. For example, the main scene which mimics the second moon cracking open to both dragons places Danny in the role of the Moon, birthing dragons while too close to the fire of the sun (her son and stars). It's a three part drama - AA / the sun, NN / the moon, and Lightbringer as both the sun's sword and his penis. In the scene with Dany, Drogo's fierg whip plays the role of LB, snaking down to crack open the eggs.

If it were to have occurred along the lines of your hypothesis - which I really liked for its own sake - then we'd only have the sun figure and the comet figure. But we always get a sun, a moon, and a stabbing implement. 

Similarly, I know that the earth was not the moon because Dany does not symbolize the earth in any sense - she is the moon mother of dragons. 

To be even simpler, the highlights of the lightbringer forging is the stabbing, the penetration. It's in every single metaphor. Azor Ahai stabbed NN with lightbringer. If we're the earth pulling a comet into itself, there is no collision in the sky. Almost every LB forging scene depicts that collision aspect, and from this collision comes the dragons. We definitely need two things colliding in the sky to match the myths. 

However, you are right to raise the issue of the Earth's survival at all if a moon were to explode at close range. It may well be that Martin is imagining a smaller, more asteroid like moon to begin with - something like Phobos or Deimos, the moons of mars. A large moon also would not explode from a comet strike - clearly there is magic involved here. 

As to your point that other cultures would remember this... 2 things. One is that this was from 10000 years ago - we have almost no idea about what happened ten thousand years ago in human affairs on earth. We have Atlantis myths and flood myths a plenty, and we know floods occurred, but who was king anywhere? We dont know. So I definitely don't think it would be a common story that there used to be a second one. The long night itself would be a more common story - and there's many examples of myths which involve Falling Fire from the sky, or myths about pulling down goddesses or marrying goddesses. They're everywhere actually, and this is a main topic of my larger essay series. 

The younger dryas Comet hypothesis is really cool, and I am definitely well familiar with it. One of my favorite authors Graham Hancock wrote a book about it just recently. And I definitely think that if we get any meteor showers in the next two books, this will be tied to the falling of the wall and most likely we will get an impact in the far north. I believe there's actually quite a bit of foreshadowing about this.

I fully confess that I haven't delved into the symbolism very deeply, so perhaps it may not fit.  My only suggestion was that perhaps the comet may symbolically be more than a sword, or a herald, or a dragon, perhaps it may also be symbolically a second moon, with all that this entails.  So for example in the myth told by the trader from Qarth, the comet could be the second moon, while in the tale of AA forging light bringer, the comet could be the sword.  My general thought was the comet as the sword, and the glacier and ice sheet that makes up the "Heart of Winter" could be the heart of Nissa Nissa.  But once again I haven't delved too deeply into it.

On 1/14/2017 at 11:11 AM, LmL said:

By the way, Earth recently captured an asteroid which is now orbiting us like a second moon, although it is very small. Do you know if it is even technically possible for a planet to capture a comment such as you described? That's pretty cool, I've never heard of that. I would think that it would either hit or miss us, or be pulled apart by our gravity if it got really close but didn't quite hit us. The younger dryas Comet was thought to break up into several pieces over the ice sheet, for example. 

As for whether this could happen in real life, I have no idea, I hope not.  We have enough to worry about as it is.  But my thought is the capture of the comet may not be a natural phenomenon,  but a magical one.  Like I said if someone or something were able to bring a comet into the planet it wouldn't come in a straight line, but start an orbit around the planet, gradually getting closer one each pass.

But regardless it would be easier to integrate a comet strike into the story then it would be to destroy the planet's moon.  I don't see how we have, to quote GRRM, a "bittersweet" ending in that scenario, unless you can somehow argue that the death of all life on the planet would be somehow bittersweet.

[Durran Durrandon]

44 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

But once again we have to remember that statement by GRRM that the dodgy seasons have a magical cause rather than a scientific one - or a natural one if you prefer. Hence my suggestion that we should take the statement literally and that both the Long Night and the Doom were in fact down to Ice magic and Fire magic culminating in a massive release of energy before dying down again to await the next cycle.

The thing is we have to view Martin's statements in the context of what he is actually written in the novels So, yes, the cause of the irregular seasons is magic. However in Game of Thrones there is a conversation between Jeor and Tryion where Jeor tells Tryion that the summer has ended and winter is coming. He talks specifically about how Aemon has measured that the days are getting shorter and that he has corresponded with maesters at the Citadel, who have confirmed his measurements, Therefor winter is connected with the shortening of days as in our world, from the beginning of the story. This is confirmed in AWOIAF which states:

"Nicol argues unconvincingly that the seasons might once have been of a regular length, determined solely by the way in which the globe faces the sun in its heavenly course. The notion behind it seems true enough—that the lengthening and shortening of days, if more regular, would have led to more regular seasons—but he could find no evidence such had ever been the case . . ."

So, once again it is the lengthening and shortening of days which is irregular, causing the summers and winters to be irregular. So, basically, the axis wobbles, unpredictably. The cause of the wobble must be magic, otherwise, it would become predictable over time.

[Durran Durrandon]

58 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What I find odd about it is that it's not as chaotic as we think.  The Citadel sends a white raven to announce the winter is coming and the summers are as long as the winters.  Luwin is seen studying the stars and taking measurements by Bran.  So there is something to collecting astronomical data that allows the Citadel to make this announcement.    To me that suggests that the planet has a wobble on it's spin that it is predictable and measurable by observation;  data collected over a long period of time.  That's not to dismiss the magical nature of fire and ice on the climate.  Someone, (I think it was Voice) suggested that the weight of the ice cap growing and shrinking had an affect on the planet's rotation and thus, the climate.   But a wobble could also be a result of an impact at some point.

 

I would say that this is half correct. it is measurable, just not predictable. The maesters seem to be measuring a shortening of days that occurs as winter sets in. This is is flat out stated in a conversation between Tryion and Jeor in Game. Aeon has made the measurments and confirmed them with the Citadel. Apparently once the Citadel is convinced that the days have gotten short enough, they send out the White Ravens. There is a bit of a problem with the wobble theory, in that there is a consistent north star in the series (The Eye of the Ice Dragon), but I think that is just a detail Martin has overlooked.

[Black Crow]

20 minutes ago, Durran Durrandon said:

So, once again it is the lengthening and shortening of days which is irregular, causing the summers and winters to be irregular. So, basically, the axis wobbles, unpredictably. The cause of the wobble must be magic, otherwise, it would become predictable over time.

They are "irregular" in the sense of not being "regular" or normal if you prefer, but they are not unpredictable. There are long winters and short winters but the summer seasons usually correspond with the winter ones [I'm acknowledging the year of the False Spring] and the equinox is recognisable. I'm still therefore inclined to look for that magical cause rather than a wobble whether caused by an impact or any other exercise in astrophysics. At the end of the day the seasons are dodgy because GRRM needs them to be.

[hiemal]

13 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

They are "irregular" in the sense of not being "regular" or normal if you prefer, but they are not unpredictable. There are long winters and short winters but the summer seasons usually correspond with the winter ones [I'm acknowledging the year of the False Spring] and the equinox is recognisable. I'm still therefore inclined to look for that magical cause rather than a wobble whether caused by an impact or any other exercise in astrophysics. At the end of the day the seasons are dodgy because GRRM needs them to be.

And iirc they the transition is calculated not by a "simple" stellar calendar but measuring the lengths of days and nights and projecting trends.

Another time-related heresy I've been itching to discuss, because it also touches on the what I believe could be the formation of the Citadel and the Starry Wisdom and links to navigation.

[Durran Durrandon]

8 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

They are "irregular" in the sense of not being "regular" or normal if you prefer, but they are not unpredictable. There are long winters and short winters but the summer seasons usually correspond with the winter ones [I'm acknowledging the year of the False Spring] and the equinox is recognisable. I'm still therefore inclined to look for that magical cause rather than a wobble whether caused by an impact or any other exercise in astrophysics. At the end of the day the seasons are dodgy because GRRM needs them to be.

On that last line, we totally agree. Whether the reason is "just magic" or a wobble in the axis caused by magic, or whatever, it is just because Martin needed there to be irregular seasons for the story. He really isn't concerned with realistic science. As for being predictable, define predictable. They are not predictable in the sense of our world. If a summer is long the winter is likely to be long, but how long? They vary, There is no telling whether the summer following a winter will be longer or shorter.

AWOIAF flat out states that the Maesters cannot predict the seasons, "Though the Citadel has long sought to learn the manner by which it may predict the length and change of seasons, all efforts have been confounded."

[LmL]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

If it's random, how can it be predictable?  There would be no white ravens from the Citadel.  This is knowledge exclusive to the Citadel and random to everyone else.   

I think they detect the days begining to shorten and can see when we have reached the relative equinox or solstice. They can't actually predict whena season will end, only tell us when it is starting to turn - at least that is my understanding.

ETA: thanks @Durran Durrandon for pulling the quotes and explaining that so well 

[JNR]

5 hours ago, Durran Durrandon said:

I think these objections are rooted in concerns that Martin is particularly concerned about the science.

I agree he's not, but the real point is quite different.

Quote

It’s been a popular topic on the A Song of Ice and Fire forums, this whole matter of what causes the weird seasons. Suggested theories have ranged as far as suggesting dark planets in the near vicinity, perhaps a binary star, and more. But it’s rather fruitless; the author is prosaic on the topic and has provided the direct answer: it’s magic, trying to figure out a scientific, realistic explanation is bound to fail.

So, if we are to believe the author of the series, a comet smashing a moon is just the kind of answer we are not going to get. 

5 hours ago, Durran Durrandon said:

This is clearly a magic comet, and a magic moon, and magic explosion, that had magical consequences. So, I think Martin has just taken the liberty of declaring the explosion cataclysmic, without making it an absolute extinction event.

Possibly, but he hasn't declared it in the canon, where there's no reference to comets intersecting moons in any sense. 

The myth from AGOT involves a moon cracking open from the heat of the sun, and dragons flying out, but there's no comet playing a role of any sort, nor any explosion to be found.  

So the fans have simply imagined that there was a comet... that it hit a moon... that there was an explosion... that the explosion did not end all life on the planet but rather created a Long Night, etc. 

Well, they are of course free to imagine whatever they like (up to and including Rhaegar and Lyanna making sweet love in a tower after Rhaegar's father burned Lyanna's father alive) but it can't reasonably be called a declaration by GRRM.  It's just fan imagination at work.

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I fully confess that I haven't delved into the symbolism very deeply, so perhaps it may not fit.  My only suggestion was that perhaps the comet may symbolically be more than a sword, or a herald, or a dragon, perhaps it may also be symbolically a second moon, with all that this entails.  So for example in the myth told by the trader from Qarth, the comet could be the second moon, while in the tale of AA forging light bringer, the comet could be the sword.  My general thought was the comet as the sword, and the glacier and ice sheet that makes up the "Heart of Winter" could be the heart of Nissa Nissa.  But once again I haven't delved too deeply into it.

So, I would say the Heart of Winter is a parallel to the moon we still have, which I think of as the ice moon.So in that sense I agree with you - this would actually be the heart of the NQ, the icy moon pale maiden, instead of Nissa Nissa. It's basically parallel though - the same idea. Last time we forged LB in the heart of the fire moon, the one that gave birth to fiery dragons, and I think this time it will the remaining moon - EXCPET that it cannot completely destroy the moon this time, or the planet is doomed to tilt sideways and kill everyone.  So, what I would expect (and I think the symbolism suggests this also) that this time the moon will not be destroyed, but only struck. We will get meteors that hit the Wall and / or the heart of winter, if we get anymeteors at all. That's my interpretation of the scenes which seem to foreshadow this event. 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

As for whether this could happen in real life, I have no idea, I hope not.  We have enough to worry about as it is.  But my thought is the capture of the comet may not be a natural phenomenon,  but a magical one.  Like I said if someone or something were able to bring a comet into the planet it wouldn't come in a straight line, but start an orbit around the planet, gradually getting closer one each pass.

It's definitely a really cool idea, I'll give you that. 

Just fyi, I do think there is a reason that we have that line about maybe the wolves think the comet is the moon, as well as the line about the comet being as bright as the moon (which BTW makes it a very large and bright comet, very close to earth).  To make a longer explanation short, I believe that all the broken and split swords are a clue about the comet splitting in half before it struck the moon in the ancient past, with one half hitting it and one not. The one that hit it got obliterated, but the one that missed got bathed in the moon conflagration's fire, only to emerge on the other side (from the perspective of earth). This would the be the big red lightbringer emerging from Nissa's bleeding heart, turned from white hot and smoking to fiery red.  White and grey (and light Blue) are the natural colors of comets, while red is not, so it could be that the comet was turned red by this moon fire. In this way, contains some of that fiery essence, just as Lightbringer drank the blood and soul and strength and courage of NN and just as the moon meteors drank the fire of the sun. 

An alternate, more fantastical interpretation, would be that the red comet IS the second moon, knocked off course by the ancient collision which gave birth to dragons. If the fire moon was an asteroid moon, a smaller one, then this might be somehting Martin is imagining.

Check our the Thundarr into, which has a 'rouge planet' playing the role of red comet

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

But regardless it would be easier to integrate a comet strike into the story then it would be to destroy the planet's moon.  I don't see how we have, to quote GRRM, a "bittersweet" ending in that scenario, unless you can somehow argue that the death of all life on the planet would be somehow bittersweet.

I answered this above, but yes, the moon has to survive or everyone dies. That's fine, all we need are a couple of meteors to blot out the sun so the Others can invade and the Wall can fall and all of that. 

[LmL]

20 minutes ago, JNR said:

I agree he's not, but the real point is quite different.

So, if we are to believe the author of the series, a comet smashing a moon is just the kind of answer we are not going to get. 

Possibly, but he hasn't declared it in the canon, where there's no reference to comets intersecting moons in any sense. 

The myth from AGOT involves a moon cracking open from the heat of the sun, and dragons flying out, but there's no comet playing a role of any sort, nor any explosion to be found.  

So the fans have simply imagined that there was a comet... that it hit a moon... that there was an explosion... that the explosion did not end all life on the planet but rather created a Long Night, etc. 

Well, they are of course free to imagine whatever they like (up to and including Rhaegar and Lyanna making sweet love in a tower after Rhaegar's father burned Lyanna's father alive) but it can't reasonably be called a declaration by GRRM.  It's just fan imagination at work.

Have you ever actually read the basic presentation of my theory? I feel like I addressed the points you are raising, in case you are curious. 

BTW I don't think anyone is trying to argue that my theory is canon or confirmed by GRRM, I'm not sure why you see this as a discussion of what is canon. I'm not sure if you call all fan theories "imagination" or if you sort everything into one of two categories: "imagination," or "canon," but my theory is a theory and no more and doesn't claim to be anything more. It's based on analysis of multiple ASOIAF myths and makes a series of reasoned arguments, which you can read above if you want the full argument. Nobody is arguing that the red comet being magical is canon - Durran and I are making a reasoned argument as to why this may be the case, which is entirely different from asserting what is canon.

However, your argument that my theory (that a magical comet striking a moon and raining down magical meteors was the cause of the long night) somehow conflicts with anything Martin has said is simply wrong. My theory follows the precedents Martin has set regarding the way magic manifests in the forces of nature.  Don't forget - the idea that meteors can be magical is given to us early on in book one, as is the idea of making a magical sword from a meteor. As is the idea that a volcanic eruption can be magical. 

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Durran Durrandon said:

There is a bit of a problem with the wobble theory, in that there is a consistent north star in the series (The Eye of the Ice Dragon), but I think that is just a detail Martin has overlooked.

It is a curious side note that Martin gave the Ice Dragon (or it's rider) a blue eye.  That would correspond with Thuban in the Alpha Draconis constellation.  An AOIII SB class star; a blue colored giant star. It was the pole star for the pyramid builders, 4 to 1900 BCE.  I'm not sure if that is deliberate on Martin's part but it should please LML.  Since this also corresponds with the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis. 

The Chinese referred to Alpha Draconis as 'The Right Wall of Purple Forbidden Enclosure'.  Thuban referred to as the 'First Star' of the Right Wall... 

The nomenclature of the current pole star/triple star system is just as interesting: 

Quote

Use of the name Polaris in English dates to the 17th century. It is an ellipsis for the Latin stella polaris "pole star". Another Latin name is stella maris "sea-star", which, from an early time, was also used as a title of the Blessed Virgin Mary, popularized in the hymn Ave Maris Stella (8th century).^[24]

In traditional Indian astronomy, its name in Sanskrit is dhruva tāra "fixed star". Its name in medieval Islamic astronomy was variously reported as Mismar "needle, nail", al-kutb al-shamaliyy "the northern axle/spindle", and al-kaukab al-shamaliyy "north star". The name Alruccabah or Ruccabah that was reported in 16th century Western sources was that of the constellation.^[25]

In the Old English rune poem, the T-rune is identified with Tyr "fame, honour", which is compared to the pole star, ᛏ [tir] biþ tacna sum, healdeð trywa wel "[fame] is a sign, it keeps faith well". - wikipedia

The dragon constellation brings to mind the Ouroboros; the world circling serpent that swallows it's own tail and The Wall described as a serpent to the west of Castle Black and sword to the east.

Quote

The road beneath the Wall was as dark and cold as the belly of an ice dragon and as twisty as a serpent.

We also have Eddard's and Arthur Dayne's words at the tower of joy (Now it begins... Now it ends) calling up the Ourobouros swallowing it's own tail:

Quote

As a symbol of the eternal unity of all things, the cycle of birth and death from which the alchemist sought release and liberation, it was familiar to the alchemist/physician Sir Thomas Browne. In his A Letter to a Friend, a medical treatise full of case-histories and witty speculations upon the human condition, he wrote of it:

[...] that the first day should make the last, that the Tail of the Snake should return into its Mouth precisely at that time, and they should wind up upon the day of their Nativity, is indeed a remarkable Coincidence,

I'll have to save discussions of the Ice Dragon for the discussion on the Wall.

[Frey family reunion]

 

11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

-snip-

We also have Eddard's and Arthur Dayne's words at the tower of joy (Now it begins... Now it ends) calling up the Ourobouros swallowing it's own tail:

I'll have to save discussions of the Ice Dragon for the discussion on the Wall.

Perhaps one other reference, is the repeated term Nissa Nissa.  A similar term, Nyssa, means 'beginning' in Greek and 'end' in Latin.