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Heresy 194 Underworld


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28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It is a curious side note that Martin gave the Ice Dragon (or it's rider) a blue eye.  That would correspond with Thuban in the Alpha Draconis constellation.  An AOIII SB class star; a blue colored giant star. It was the pole star for the pyramid builders, 4 to 1900 BCE.  I'm not sure if that is deliberate on Martin's part but it should please LML.  Since this also corresponds with the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis. 

Indeed! I am pleased. If I use that bit of info I will credit you Lynn, very well done. Of course O identified Draco with the Ice Dragon, but hadn't gone so far as to zero in on a specific star for the eye. 

28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The Chinese referred to Alpha Draconis as 'The Right Wall of Purple Forbidden Enclosure'.  Thuban referred to as the 'First Star' of the Right Wall... 

Ok, very interesting, given the clear associations between the ice dragon and the Wall...

28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The nomenclature of the current pole star/triple star system is just as interesting: 

The dragon constellation brings to mind the Ouroboros; the world circling serpent that swallows it's own tail and The Wall described as a serpent to the west of Castle Black and sword to the east.

We also have Eddard's and Arthur Dayne's words at the tower of joy (Now it begins... Now it ends) calling up the Ourobouros swallowing it's own tail:

I'll have to save discussions of the Ice Dragon for the discussion on the Wall.

My favorite Ouroboros is this one: 

The Great Pyramid shouldered eight hundred feet into the sky, from its huge square base to the lofty apex where the queen kept her private chambers, surrounded by greenery and fragrant pools. As a cool blue dawn broke over the city, Dany walked out onto the terrace. To the west sunlight blazed off the golden domes of the Temple of the Graces, and etched deep shadows behind the stepped pyramids of the mighty. In some of those pyramids, the Sons of the Harpy are plotting new murders even now, and I am powerless to stop them .

Viserion sensed her disquiet. The white dragon lay coiled around a pear tree, his head resting on his tail. When Dany passed his eyes came open, two pools of molten gold. His horns were gold as well, and the scales that ran down his back from head to tail. “You’re lazy,” she told him, scratching under his jaw. His scales were hot to the touch, like armor left too long in the sun. Dragons are fire made flesh . She had read that in one of the books Ser Jorah had given her as a wedding gift. “You should be hunting with your brothers. Have you and Drogon been fighting again?” Her dragons were growing wild of late. Rhaegal had snapped at Irri, and Viserion had set Reznak’s tokar ablaze the last time the seneschal had called. I have left them too much to themselves, but where am I to find the time for them?

Viserion’s tail lashed sideways, thumping the trunk of the tree so hard that a pear came tumbling down to land at Dany’s feet. His wings unfolded, and he half flew, half hopped onto the parapet. He grows , she thought as he launched himself into the sky. They are all three growing. Soon they will be large enough to bear my weight . Then she would fly as Aegon the Conqueror had flown, up and up, until Meereen was so small that she could blot it out with her thumb.

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3 hours ago, JNR said:

I agree he's not, but the real point is quite different.

So, if we are to believe the author of the series, a comet smashing a moon is just the kind of answer we are not going to get. 

Possibly, but he hasn't declared it in the canon, where there's no reference to comets intersecting moons in any sense. 

The myth from AGOT involves a moon cracking open from the heat of the sun, and dragons flying out, but there's no comet playing a role of any sort, nor any explosion to be found.  

So the fans have simply imagined that there was a comet... that it hit a moon... that there was an explosion... that the explosion did not end all life on the planet but rather created a Long Night, etc. 

Well, they are of course free to imagine whatever they like (up to and including Rhaegar and Lyanna making sweet love in a tower after Rhaegar's father burned Lyanna's father alive) but it can't reasonably be called a declaration by GRRM.  It's just fan imagination at work.

Well yes, but no. The books connect the seasons with the lengthening and shortening of days. That is canont. AWOIAF connects the lengthening and shortening of days with "the way in which the globe faces the sun its heavenly course". That is in the canon So the way the globe faces the sun is irregular, so it wobbles. This isn't fan imagination. Now why it wobbles? Yes, it's magic, I agree. Martin has more or less said it is magic, don't try to explain it with science. Cool.

However, in the same section of AWOIAF we get this line, "The notion behind it seems true enough—that the lengthening and shortening of days, if more regular, would have led to more regular seasons—but he could find no evidence tales." So we are given a hint that the irregularity wasn't always the case. So we are invited to speculate as to what began this irregularity ad by intuitive leap it makes sense to connect this with the cause of the Long Night. These lines are part of an insert in the section about the Long Night, so . . .  here we are trying to explain what caused the Long Night and by extension the irregular seasons that we are guessing did not occur previously.

The theory presented is based on a parallel reading of myths. Is this all speculative. Sure? No one is requiring you believe it. Time will tell. I actually disagree with LML on part of it. That's not the point. Fans aren't simply imagining a comet hitting the moon. They are doing a parallel reading of two myths, one in which sword is driven into the heart of woman, but has a weird seemingly throw away line in the end about her cry of ecstasy cracking the moon, and one in which the moon literally cracks and gives birth to dragons, after the moon gets to close the to the sun and the sub "kisses" it with its fire, and while this story is being told the teller is being heckled by two Dothraki handmaidens complaining, "Sun is God, Moon is Wife. It is known." Meanwhile, half a word a way and a few months later we have Gendry telling Arya the comet looks like a a sword, while Xaro Xhoan Daxos is telling Daenerys,"Your dragons will be a flaming sword over the world. " The thread of imagery is pretty clear. Now you may not be down with this kind of parallel reading of symbols, but that is a far cry from saying that is just something fans imagine. We are all just here having fun, spinning ideas. No one is asking you to drink the Kool-Aide.

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

It is a curious side note that Martin gave the Ice Dragon (or it's rider) a blue eye.  That would correspond with Thuban in the Alpha Draconis constellation. 

I have rather tended to associate that detail with the blue-eyed lot who, whatever their true origins, are quite unmistakably associated with Ice.

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Just now, Black Crow said:

I have rather tended to associate that detail with the blue-eyed lot who, whatever their true origins, are quite unmistakably associated with Ice.

In terms of symbolism, I regard the Others as more or less equivalent with ice dragons. Their burning blue stars make them a symbol cold meteors - their invasion is an an invasion of blue stars, in other words. And where do they come from? If you buy the idea that the Night's King and Corpse Queen were creating Others, as many do, then the Others came from a moon symbol - the Corpse Queen, with her cold, moon-pale skin. Thus, they are very equivalent to dragons, who also symbolize falling stars (fiery ones). They are parallel meteor symbols, but the Others are cold burning stars and they come from a cold moon woman. They only like cold moonlight, etc. Thus The Others are very like ice dragons already. 

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4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Perhaps one other reference, is the repeated term Nissa Nissa.  A similar term, Nyssa, means 'beginning' in Greek and 'end' in Latin.

Oh, that's interesting.  I didn't know about that.  We might also add Euron's declaration that he is the first storm and the last storm.

3 hours ago, LmL said:

Indeed! I am pleased. If I use that bit of info I will credit you Lynn, very well done. Of course O identified Draco with the Ice Dragon, but hadn't gone so far as to zero in on a specific star for the eye. 

:cheers:

55 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I have rather tended to associate that detail with the blue-eyed lot who, whatever their true origins, are quite unmistakably associated with Ice.

That is what I take away from it as well.  Specifically, it's the rider with the blue eye rather than the dragon.  Thuban is actually located on the tail of the dragon.

Quote

  A Storm of Swords - Jon VIII

Jon waited by the cold iron bars while Pyp went to Maester Aemon for the spare key. Surprisingly, the maester himself returned with him, and Clydas with a lantern. "Come see me when we are done," the old man told Jon while Pyp was fumbling with the chains. "I need to change your dressing and apply a fresh poultice, and you will want some more dreamwine for the pain."

 

Jon nodded weakly. The door swung open. Pyp led them in, followed by Clydas and the lantern. It was all Jon could do to keep up with Maester Aemon. The ice pressed close around them, and he could feel the cold seeping into his bones, the weight of the Wall above his head. It felt like walking down the gullet of an ice dragon. The tunnel took a twist, and then another. Pyp unlocked a second iron gate. They walked farther, turned again, and saw light ahead, faint and pale through the ice. That's bad, Jon knew at once. That's very bad

Jon on the Wall is the rider swallowed by the ice dragon.

 

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7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

 

Perhaps one other reference, is the repeated term Nissa Nissa.  A similar term, Nyssa, means 'beginning' in Greek and 'end' in Latin.

That's a new one. I hadn't heard this before, but it makes sense. I had heard of it meaning "moon" before, thus Nissa Nissa equating moon moon.

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9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

 

Perhaps one other reference, is the repeated term Nissa Nissa.  A similar term, Nyssa, means 'beginning' in Greek and 'end' in Latin.

So, I looked this up to fact check it (yes, you're right) and found this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyssa_(name)

Turns out Nyssa is also a genus of trees.  One such trees is Nyssa sylvatica, which is also known as black tupelo, blackgum tree, or wildfire.  It supposedly produces blue or black fruits.  Kind of reminds me of the shade of the evening tree, though the leaf color is different. 

http://plantlust.com/plants/477/nyssa-sylvatica-wildfire/

ETA: One user describes the bark as "almost alligator-like patterns and is dark gray to almost black."  Kinda reminds me of Valyrian Steel!  

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I think people are reading too much into all the various legends.   Going into detail on one legend is good.   But assuming they all have basis in fact is not.   Every culture in our world has there legends, some are based in fact and others are not.   Even those based in fact could come up in a story of that culture without the facts the legend is based on. GRRM is simply trying to provide a rich sense of culture and show his story takes place in a world larger than the story itself.

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4 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

So, I looked this up to fact check it (yes, you're right) and found this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyssa_(name)

Turns out Nyssa is also a genus of trees.  One such trees is Nyssa sylvatica, which is also known as black tupelo, blackgum tree, or wildfire.  It supposedly produces blue or black fruits.  Kind of reminds me of the shade of the evening tree, though the leaf color is different. 

http://plantlust.com/plants/477/nyssa-sylvatica-wildfire/

ETA: One user describes the bark as "almost alligator-like patterns and is dark gray to almost black."  Kinda reminds me of Valyrian Steel!  

Snowfyre once wrote extensively about botanical symbolism in ASOIAF, especially the apple symbolism. There was so much that seemed to fit that I would not be surprised if Nissa Nissa is deliberately both beginning and end and this wildfire tree with red leaves and/or the one you saw with the black bark. So what are we to conclude regarding sticking a blade into the heart of a tree? Or was it a blade? Maybe it was more like the burned out holes in the weirwoods north of the Wall where it appears burnt sacrifices are made to the trees. It's thought provoking.

 

Edited to add that I had found one of Snowfyre's botanical posts: 

Heresy 102

 

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15 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

 

Perhaps one other reference, is the repeated term Nissa Nissa.  A similar term, Nyssa, means 'beginning' in Greek and 'end' in Latin.

And it's important that both the beginning and end are symbolised by the same term, hence the reason possibly for why GRRM didn't call his archeype just 'Nissa' but 'Nissa Nissa', hinting at two aspects flowing from the same being.  The origin and end, the problem and the solution have the same source and give rise to or reflect each other. Or, in other words, the predicament can only be resolved by harnessing the same forces which created it in the first place.  

According to @LmL's paradigm, that would mean the same people, or at least their descendants who have inherited this karmic legacy, who brought down the moon and caused the Long Night in the first place, must now deal with the second impending Long Night, using the same greenseer power that caused evil, but this time for good, to prevent mass calamity.  

Similarly, in @Black Crow oft-touted analogy, blood built the Wall; blood will bring it down-- to which I'd add the same blood (as in genealogy) which built it -- i.e. the line of Brandon the Builder -- will dismantle it.

This is another foreseeable inversion @Feather Crystal.  Historical scenario: greenseers -- 'Azor Ahai' -- selfish -- evil intentions-- brought down a moon -- caused Long Night -- via murder -- criminal -- kills his brother.  Projected inversion:  greenseers -- 'Last Hero' -- selfless -- good intentions-- prevent moon meteor coming down to earth -- prevent Long Night -- via self-sacrifice -- hero -- works with his brother.

6 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

So, I looked this up to fact check it (yes, you're right) and found this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyssa_(name)

Turns out Nyssa is also a genus of trees.  One such trees is Nyssa sylvatica, which is also known as black tupelo, blackgum tree, or wildfire.  It supposedly produces blue or black fruits.  Kind of reminds me of the shade of the evening tree, though the leaf color is different. 

http://plantlust.com/plants/477/nyssa-sylvatica-wildfire/

ETA: One user describes the bark as "almost alligator-like patterns and is dark gray to almost black."  Kinda reminds me of Valyrian Steel!  

That is a fantastic catch, Isobel -- absolutely central!

Notably, Nyssa sylvatica has flaming red leaves like weirwoods and black bark like shade of the evening -- so we wouldn't be amiss to conclude that 'Nyssa Nyssa' herself was a magical tree.  

A human wed a magical tree (remember how it works with Bran; his blood makes him a greenseer, but then he eats the weirwood bole/bowl which 'weds' him to the tree and 'awakens' his powers).  Azor Ahai is a greenseer who wed a weirwood, as @LmL eloquently expresses in his neat formula (see below), followed by further exposition by @LordBlakeney.

'Nyssa' relates to the water nymphs/sirens; and 'sylvatica' is another word for 'wood'-- putting it together, 'Nyssa sylvatica' = magical water nymph of the woods:

Quote

From wikipedia:

syl·van

ˈsilvən/

adjective

literary

adjective: sylvan; adjective: silvan

consisting of or associated with woods; wooded.

"trees and contours all add to a sylvan setting"

pleasantly rural or pastoral.

"vistas of sylvan charm"

Origin

mid 16th century (as a noun denoting an inhabitant of the woods): from French sylvain or Latin Silvanus ‘woodland deity,’ from silva ‘a wood.’

So -- @Blue Tiger and @LmL: if 'silva' is a pun on 'silver'...then what do you guys think of Patchface's 'silver sea- or see-weed' now?  (and @LmL: you owe @Seams an apology for ever deriding her excellent anagram, whereby 'silver seaweed' becomes 'wise red leaves'!)  'Nyssa' relates to the 'merwives' I'd say!

On 1/9/2017 at 8:15 PM, LmL said:

Ok, was meaning to bring this up too. It's easy to notice that Ghost and Bloodraven have weirwood coloring... but Mel has it too, as you highlighted here. Mel is obviously a fire moon symbol, so making a weirwood out of her pretty clearly aligns the weirwood with the fire moon. 

Azor Ahai wed the fire moon. 

The fire moon is a tree. 

Azor Ahai wed the trees. 

Nissa Nissa may be a weirwood person in some sense. 

Bran is an AA reborn in the sense that his fall from the tower depicted the moon's fall from the sky- he is the thunderbolt AND the boy struck by lightning both. And he's wedding the trees. 

To which I added that 'Lightbringer' too is likely to be 'a weirwood (person)'.

On 1/10/2017 at 7:27 PM, LordBlakeney said:

So how does Jon "wake the sleepers?" Is it with a horn, like the cracked one filled with dragonglass Ghost and Jon discovered near the Fist?

I've always thought Bran would be responsible for raising the dead under Winterfell - he's being trained as a greenseer to do something important to the end game. 

I wonder if there is a clue in how the dead are raised in the Night's King story. He took the "woman with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars" as his bride. Remember how Bran needs to be "wed" to the trees to awaken his greenseer abilities through the weirwood paste? I wonder if the Night's King was "wed" not to a literal woman but a weirwood tree? This "wedding" resulted in strange sorceries, binding men to his will, and sacrificing his "offspring." If the weirwoods are needed to raise the dead or create the Others, then it makes sense to say that the Night's King as a greenseer and his weirwood tree as his "bride" were copulating in a sense.

I guess there were be another dimension to this idea if you agree with the suggestion of some people that the Night's King and Azor Ahai were one and the same. Nissa Nissa would be this weirwood. Reading some of the great stuff by @LmL in his Skinchanger zombie series with meteors and fiery weirwoods and the interaction between fire and greenseer magic makes me wonder.

Glad there a smart people on these forums who are building some creative and profound ideas about what we're reading! I really enjoy reading the exchanges. So do you guys think its possible the Night's Queen was a weirwood? Though she had blue eyes in the story, maybe the red of current weirwoods has something to do with the sacrifices/sorcery the Night's King was cooking (or maybe there is a link to be drawn to the seemingly "inverted" weirwoods found in Quarth). What would be the implications on the legends of the Night's King if that is the case, and how does that fit into bridging the gap to the underworld? (Which seems to be a function of the weirwoods in the current story, and I agree with the original post that the underworld spilling forth from the Stark crypts is key to the end game of the series)

I hope I'm still on topic and didn't ramble too much! New to forums. 

I wouldn't call it an 'interaction between' fire and greenseer magic.  All magic is fire.  Fire and blood.  Fire is integral to greenseer magic.

The tree @Isobel Harper has highlighted combines elements of both trees: namely, the weirwoods and 'inverted weirwoods' from which the shade of evening is brewed...'ebony trees,' aren't they?  The leaves are flaming red, as if on fire.  The bark, however, is dark and resembles alligator hide -- pointing to the old dragon or wyvern Bloodraven of the 'black wooded' Blackwoods who resides in the cavern with its underground river and 'sunless sea'.  Alligators are amphibious -- just like Bloodraven.  Just like every 'sea dragon'.  Just like every greenseer, including Bran (he's a mermaid, having lost his legs for example).  The green see is the green sea!

One thing we can say with confidence now, Nyssa Nyssa embodies both the bounty and the fury of the goddess, just as the world tree encompasses the alpha and the omega, and the weirwood - shade of the evening tree duality.

I'm not yet sure, however, how the 'shade of the evening trees' figure into this, though...Any ideas?

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7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

That's a new one. I hadn't heard this before, but it makes sense. I had heard of it meaning "moon" before, thus Nissa Nissa equating moon moon.

It works well because this is a moon which contains dragons.  The dragon meteor children and the comet itself have parallel symbolism, namely, that of Venus. Essentially, George has grafted the Lightbringer / Morningstar / Evenstar symbolism of Venus onto the comet and meteors.  The idea of Venus being both Morningstar and EVenstar works well with the Ouroboros concept of cycles. 

 

5 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

So, I looked this up to fact check it (yes, you're right) and found this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyssa_(name)

Turns out Nyssa is also a genus of trees.  One such trees is Nyssa sylvatica, which is also known as black tupelo, blackgum tree, or wildfire.  It supposedly produces blue or black fruits.  Kind of reminds me of the shade of the evening tree, though the leaf color is different. 

http://plantlust.com/plants/477/nyssa-sylvatica-wildfire/

ETA: One user describes the bark as "almost alligator-like patterns and is dark gray to almost black."  Kinda reminds me of Valyrian Steel!  

You know I have spent a lot of time looking at translations for Nissa, and I never saw that one. I think the most important and widely recognized meaning (and thus the one Martin is most likely to have in mind) is the Scandinavian one of the Nissa man as a mischievous or helpful elf, but I also think it's likely he would explore the other meanings of the word, since he seems to have done so elsewhere. Honestly @ravenous reader and I have already linked the symbol of green fire to greenseers using fire magic, and these ideas to Azor Ahai reborn, and possibly back to Nissa NIssa herself.  So the idea of Nyssa actually being a name for a black tree associated with the nickname "wild fire?"  That fits a lot of symbolism we had already identified, is the point.

Really interesting find. I also have been trying to decipher the symbol of black wood.  It's not just the warlock trees - we also have Ironwood trees and House Blackwood, and a few others. I believe there is a deeper meaning underlying all of it, as with all of Martin's symbolic motifs, but I am still trying to suss it out. I think it has something to do with corrupted or undead greenseers, something like a tree blackened by a lightning strike. 

 

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25 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I'm not yet sure, however, how the 'shade of the evening trees' figure into this, though...Any ideas?

Simple - black wood = corrupted greenseers. Corrupted greenseer brought the Long Night, the shade of the evening. 

The evening associations of the black trees also imply a morning association with the weirwoods, which makes sense. 

25 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

The tree @Isobel Harper has highlighted combines elements of both trees: namely, the weirwoods and 'inverted weirwoods' from which the shade of evening is brewed...'ebony trees,' aren't they?  The leaves are flaming red, as if on fire.  The bark, however, is dark and resembles alligator hide -- pointing to the old dragon or wyvern Bloodraven of the 'black wooded' Blackwoods who resides in the cavern with its underground river and 'sunless sea'.  Alligators are amphibious -- just like Bloodraven.  Just like every 'sea dragon'.  Just like every greenseer, including Bran (he's a mermaid, having lost his legs for example).  The green see is the green sea!

One thing we can say with confidence now, Nyssa Nyssa embodies both the bounty and the fury of the goddess, just as the world tree encompasses the alpha and the omega, and the weirwood - shade of the evening tree duality.

It's really a lizard tree if we ever saw one. And that of course fits well with Nissa Nisa, the moon-mother of dragons. If she is a tree, a fiery red and black lizard tree works well. And again I would point out that trees struck by lighting get blackened. 

I've mentioned before that Martin is doing a weird thing with the idea of Ygg the demon tree. Obviously it refers to Yggdrasil, a huge influence on the weirwoods. But I think he's also playing on the fact that there is a Lovecraft monster, one of the Great Old Ones, named Yig - and he is also "the father of serpents." Like many LC entities, it's kind of a psychic invasion thing, but the connections are two fold.  One, Cerrunos is called "the old one," and of course we know the horned people / Garth people / green men have a lot to do with the weirwoods, while the idea of a tree which is also the father of serpents correlates well with Azor Ahai the greenseer, or to his mother Nissa Nissa the greenseer / weirwood tree.  In this case, Azor Ahai would wed the Nissa tree and Azor Ahai reborn would be the new being born out of the union between the weirwood consciousness and AA. 

And you know, I have been identifying Ghost with the moon for a long, long time now - and Ghost has the noted weirwood coloring. If Jon's spirit merges with Ghost and he is reborn as a wolf-man as Radio Westeros and myself and others suggest, then it's very much the same thing, with reborn Jon-Ghost representing the union of an AA figure and a weirwood figure. 

Not sure at what point we are derailing the Heresy thread however by debating my ideas. I love it, but we may be ruining the underworld discussion at some point. 

25 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

So -- @Blue Tiger and @LmL: if 'silva' is a pun on 'silver'...then what do you guys think of Patchface's 'silver sea- or see-weed' now?  (and @LmL: you owe @Seams an apology for ever deriding her excellent anagram, whereby 'silver seaweed' becomes 'wise red leaves'!)  'Nyssa' relates to the 'merwives' I'd say!

We're going to have to talk about this a bit more before I retract my skepticism on complex anagrams. But it does make sense that if seaweed = see=weed, then the silver = silva idea makes it a psychedelic substance that comes from a tree and helps you see - which would be weirwood paste. But gowns of wierwood paste? Not sure that makes sense. You'd have to think 'gowns' was an allusion to something besides clothes...  and we also have to consider the Grey King's tapestries of silver seaweed, right? He also wore robes of seaweed with his tall, pale crown of Nagga's teeth (weirwood crown). That scene at the Nightfort where the moon paints the wood of the weirwood silver might pertain as well. 

Aeron weaves seaweed through his hair and beard also. 

 

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22 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

'Pre-eminent minds' think alike!

We posted almost simultaneously...

 

Well whaddaya know. But we might need to take this convo back over to my thread or your nennymoan thread. I just noticed @Blue Tiger opened a can on Nennymoan on my thread, which I want to respond to. 

Those nennymoans... they pop up everywhere, almost like weeds!

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31 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

This is another foreseeable inversion @Feather Crystal.  Historical scenario: greenseers -- 'Azor Ahai' -- selfish -- evil intentions-- brought down a moon -- caused Long Night -- via murder -- criminal -- kills his brother.  Projected inversion:  greenseers -- 'Last Hero' -- selfless -- good intentions-- prevent moon meteor coming down to earth -- prevent Long Night -- via self-sacrifice -- hero -- works with his brother.

Thanks! I'll have to save this for future reference.

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1 hour ago, Cowboy Dan said:

I must have been letting my mood affect my perception. Good to know I didn't come off as confrontational as I felt. I like ideas, they're malleable and don't cost a thing so it's good to hear someone else enjoys mine!

A cursory look says the idea came out in the 80's so it's possible Martin heard of the absorbed second moon idea but the scientific community is divided on whether it is conclusive one way or the other. And no worries, the best memories are pretty strange in my experience!

That's really interesting, because even my two moon hypothesis has the remaining, surviving moon (which I think is the 'ice moon') taking and absorbing a bit of blackened fire moon shrapnel - one moon eating the other, in a sense. I have found this pattern replicated many, many times.  It kind of becomes semantics as to whetheryou want to hink of the ice moon as having eaten the corpse of the fire moon as in "most of the fire moon," or just a bit of black meteor shrapnel, but either way, it happens over and over again. Great find @Feather Crystal:)

1 hour ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Sweet. Like I said there's more that fits thematically with the other albums (and some less subtle, super direct ones like "Waiting for the Worms" -- the graveworm tendrils of the weirwood burrowing into Bloodraven's brain). I'm sure I'll talk about it at some point, it's pretty amusing to me too!

 

Wow, amazing find! 

Very cool stuff! Wish I had more to interject but that's just fascinating.

 

@LmL Yeah man, I wasn't trying to attack your views or anything by saying I disagree with the two moon hypothesis. You've got a number of huge essays and years of analysis that back up your points and I'm just some dude putting out ideas. I agree with quite a bit of the symbolism and ideas you've found I just wanted to point out where I personally diverge from your well-known findings. Did not mean to imply that you have to agree with or defend yourself from my view on it!

You quoted @Durran Durrandon and addressed me, so I'm not sure exactly what the intent was. But I am glad to see you Cowboy Dan and appreciate your opening up about your recent battles! I always find it encouraging to hear people talk honestly about dealing with this kind of adversity. Cheers and keep up the good fight, nice to see you around.  

And of course you know I don't mind if people like some parts of my theory and disagree with other parts. I'm just happy to get people looking at the stars and at the old myths. I will argue for my interpretations, but at the same time I am sure I do not have everything right. 

1 hour ago, Cowboy Dan said:

I could see that, volcanoes are quite prevalent. Dragonstone is definitely on some sort of magmic vent and Winterfell is likely heated by similar forces. The blotting out of the sun is certainly a recurring mythological motif that I've been picking up. I was thinking about the Matrix and how the world gets destroyed due to the division between man and machine (big fan of non-dualism obviously) that comes to a head when men blacken the sky. Can't say I agree for certain if it's caused by a volcano in Martin's world but it seems plausible.

A volcanic winter aided my magic would work just the same way as an impact winter aided by magic as a cause for the Long Night, for sure. Only thing about this is that, besides all the evidence for moon meteor impacts, we have a recent case of an absolutely ridiculously large volcanic eruption - an entire peninsula's worth - which was aided by magic and did not cause a Long Night.  However I do think that one of the meteor impacts may have triggered volcanoes, which is something meteors can do (earthquakes and volcanoes, actually). 

1 hour ago, Cowboy Dan said:

You can also think about it from a relativistic standpoint: it's a mountain made out of fire. Would certainly make sense for a cosmic sword-meteor to be tempered in.

So, the cosmic Lightbringer comet was tempered in the heart of Nissa Nissa, the moon. But those dragon meteor children are fiery hot molten swords as well, and when they land on the planet, they are tempered in their own right. The sea dragon meteor, an oceanic impact probably near the Iron Islands, would represent a water tempering. A meteor landing in the earth where it triggered a volcano would be like a fire tempering, perhaps.  The thunderbolt lightning the tree on fire describes a tempering in the heart of a weirwood. A meteor landing in the north... and ice tempering. And so on. There is even a bunch of stuff about dragons landing in the mud tied to the Crannogmen and the neck, which I believe is referring to the breaking of the neck of Westeros, Moat Cailin, etc. 

1 hour ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Just a fun little bit on etymology since the Nyssa thing just got dropped and I feel it's rather apt to this discussion of star swords. The name Lannister in Latin translates to "Lann" : sword/blade/scales (fish (or in asoiaf a dragon)) and "Ster": Star. The name literally means Star Sword/Shield. And before I get a Tyrion reference, Tyrion outright states his weapon is his mind and Jaime's is his sword. With that I can segue us back to the Underworld!

Wow, so many good finds today. A fish sword or a scaly sword makes me think of the red comet as "the dragons's tail" (Dany's description) and "a fish with a long tail in the Tully colors" (Edmure).  And of course we have the ship Lionstar, which along with King Robert's Hammer, delivers a moonmaiden to Dorne in a wonderful imitation of flaming stars and hammers which were really moon meteors falling on the Arm of Dorne, near Sunspear where those boats land. 

1 hour ago, Cowboy Dan said:

 

ETA: The turtle mention is great! There's the World Turtle, a giant turtle that carries the land on its back so I really like the catch that a turtle could be symbolic of the land breaking (and to be fair is a little self-serving, that's in line with my views on the importance of the comets/meteors).

Turtles are also seen like a cosmic barq such as carries the sun and moon through the sky.  And either way, the turtle is struck by a falling object which you rightly equate with a moon meteor. Anywhere on top of a mountain, tower, or the Wall is like standing in the heavens, so the things thrown down from the Wall make easy moon meteor symbols.  The burning scarecrow brothers tumbling down in Jon's Azor Ahai dream are another great example. 

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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

 

Similarly, in @Black Crow oft-touted analogy, blood built the Wall; blood will bring it down-- to which I'd add the same blood (as in genealogy) which built it -- i.e. the line of Brandon the Builder -- will dismantle it.

 

Whilst it works by itself, its worth bearing in mind that was also what Janet Clouston had in mind in cursing the House of Shaws

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43 minutes ago, LmL said:

That's really interesting, because even my two moon hypothesis has the remaining, surviving moon (which I think is the 'ice moon') taking and absorbing a bit of blackened fire moon shrapnel - one moon eating the other, in a sense. I have found this pattern replicated many, many times.  It kind of becomes semantics as to whetheryou want to hink of the ice moon as having eaten the corpse of the fire moon as in "most of the fire moon," or just a bit of black meteor shrapnel, but either way, it happens over and over again. Great find @Feather Crystal

Don't thank me, but I also do not recall who the credit should go to! Someone else found the article with the theory. I just remember reading it. I'm just so bad with remembering names. :blush: Sorry, whoever you are!

I do enjoy the inversions, particularly the one about whomever created the problem in the first place has to reharness that same power to reverse it. It really does seem to be the end point for the reversal of major events. I'll be watching with baited breath as to how the essay on the Timelines turns out. :wideeyed:

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7 hours ago, LmL said:

Well whaddaya know. But we might need to take this convo back over to my thread or your nennymoan thread. I just noticed @Blue Tiger opened a can on Nennymoan on my thread, which I want to respond to. 

Those nennymoans... they pop up everywhere, almost like weeds!

I'll 'see' you over there...

Agree on the 'psychedelic weed'...I've been telling you that ever since my eyes were opened by GRRM's overt reference ('down to a sunless sea,' etc.) of Coleridge's poem, 'Kubla Khan', written by the poet after emerging from a trip on psychotropic drugs, on which Bloodraven's cavern is based.  And my deconstruction of the broomsticks and the curious practices of witches.

Let's remember, GRRM is an old hippie who was probably very enthusiastic -- at least in his imagination -- about entertaining the enlightenment-via-drug culture surrounding Pink Floyd (as @Cowboy Dan has mentioned), The Grateful Dead, Aldous Huxley's 'The Doors of Perception,' Carlos Castaneda, and the like:

Quote

From Wikipedia:

Castaneda was the subject of a cover article in the March 5, 1973 issue of Time[1] which described him as "an enigma wrapped in a mystery wrapped in a tortilla". When confronted by correspondent Sandra Burton about discrepancies in his personal history, Castaneda responded:

To ask me to verify my life by giving you my statistics ... is like using science to validate sorcery. It robs the world of its magic and makes milestones out of us all.

The interviewer wrote:

Castaneda makes the reader experience the pressure of mysterious winds and the shiver of leaves at twilight, the hunter's peculiar alertness to sound and smell, the rock-bottom scrubbiness of Indian life, the raw fragrance of tequila and the vile, fibrous taste of peyote, the dust in the car, and the loft of a crow's flight. It is a superbly concrete setting, dense with animistic meaning. This is just as well, in view of the utter weirdness of the events that happen in it.

Following that interview, Castaneda retired from public view.

 

7 hours ago, LmL said:

We're going to have to talk about this a bit more before I retract my skepticism on complex anagrams. But it does make sense that if seaweed = see=weed, then the silver = silva idea makes it a psychedelic substance that comes from a tree and helps you see - which would be weirwood paste. But gowns of wierwood paste? Not sure that makes sense. You'd have to think 'gowns' was an allusion to something besides clothes...  and we also have to consider the Grey King's tapestries of silver seaweed, right? He also wore robes of seaweed with his tall, pale crown of Nagga's teeth (weirwood crown). That scene at the Nightfort where the moon paints the wood of the weirwood silver might pertain as well. 

Aeron weaves seaweed through his hair and beard also. 

You need to see the 'gowns of weirwood' less literally (can't believe I'm telling you to be less literal..!  :))  The important thing is not that they are gowns or tapestries, but that they are woven -- and 'weaving' beyond a doubt is associated in the text with magic, e.g.:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos II

Together they tied off the sail as the boat rocked beneath them. As Davos unshipped the oars and slid them into the choppy black water, he said, "Who rowed you to Renly?"

"There was no need," she said. "He was unprotected. But here . . . this Storm's End is an old place. There are spells woven into the stones. Dark walls that no shadow can pass—ancient, forgotten, yet still in place."

"Shadow?" Davos felt his flesh prickling. "A shadow is a thing of darkness."

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"Why not?"

"The Wall. The Wall is more than just ice and stone, he said. There are spells woven into it . . . old ones, and strong. He cannot pass beyond the Wall."

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

Bran was almost certain he had never heard this story. "Did he have green dreams like Jojen?"

"No," said Meera, "but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear."

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

Beneath the weeping Wall, Lady Melisandre raised her pale white hands. "We all must choose," she proclaimed. "Man or woman, young or old, lord or peasant, our choices are the same." Her voice made Jon Snow think of anise and nutmeg and cloves. She stood at the king's side on a wooden scaffold raised above the pit. "We choose light or we choose darkness. We choose good or we choose evil. We choose the true god or the false."

Mance Rayder's thick grey-brown hair blew about his face as he walked. He pushed it from his eyes with bound hands, smiling. But when he saw the cage, his courage failed him. The queen's men had made it from the trees of the haunted forest, from saplings and supple branches, pine boughs sticky with sap, and the bone-white fingers of the weirwoods. They'd bent them and twisted them around and through each other to weave a wooden lattice, then hung it high above a deep pit filled with logs, leaves, and kindling.

The wildling king recoiled from the sight. "No," he cried, "mercy. This is not right, I'm not the king, they—"

 

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Jon Snow turned to Melisandre. "What sorcery is this?"

"Call it what you will. Glamor, seeming, illusion. R'hllor is Lord of Light, Jon Snow, and it is given to his servants to weave with it, as others weave with thread."

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Iron Islands: Driftwood Crowns

In the Age of Heroes, the legends say, the ironborn were ruled by a mighty monarch known simply as the Grey King. The Grey King ruled the sea itself and took a mermaid to wife, so his sons and daughters might live above the waves or beneath them as they chose. His hair and beard and eyes were as grey as a winter sea, and from these he took his name. The crown he wore was made of driftwood, so all who knelt before him might know that his kingship came from the sea and the Drowned God who dwells beneath it.

The deeds attributed to the Grey King by the priests and singers of the Iron Islands are many and marvelous. It was the Grey King who brought fire to the earth by taunting the Storm God until he lashed down with a thunderbolt, setting a tree ablaze. The Grey King also taught men to weave nets and sails and carved the first longship from the hard pale wood of Ygg, a demon tree who fed on human flesh.

etc.

Thus, "weaving gowns of silver (or 'silva')" can be understood as weaving magic spells via weirwood.  In fact, donning such a magical gown is akin symbolically to skinchanging a tree, a wolf, or other creature or element.  As the inhabitants -- and spouses -- of the weirwood, the greenseers are wearing magical tree gowns, just as the Others do.  I think of the gowns in question as their wedding gowns!

7 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

 

8 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

And it's important that both the beginning and end are symbolised by the same term, hence the reason possibly for why GRRM didn't call his archeype just 'Nissa' but 'Nissa Nissa', hinting at two aspects flowing from the same being.  The origin and end, the problem and the solution have the same source and give rise to or reflect each other. Or, in other words, the predicament can only be resolved by harnessing the same forces which created it in the first place.  

According to @LmL's paradigm, that would mean the same people, or at least their descendants who have inherited this karmic legacy, who brought down the moon and caused the Long Night in the first place, must now deal with the second impending Long Night, using the same greenseer power that caused evil, but this time for good, to prevent mass calamity.  

Similarly, in @Black Crow oft-touted analogy, blood built the Wall; blood will bring it down-- to which I'd add the same blood (as in genealogy) which built it -- i.e. the line of Brandon the Builder -- will dismantle it.

This is another foreseeable inversion @Feather Crystal.  Historical scenario: greenseers -- 'Azor Ahai' -- selfish -- evil intentions-- brought down a moon -- caused Long Night -- via murder -- criminal -- kills his brother.  Projected inversion:  greenseers -- 'Last Hero' -- selfless -- good intentions-- prevent moon meteor coming down to earth -- prevent Long Night -- via self-sacrifice -- hero -- works with his brother.

:agree:

 

'Her wounds came from the same source as her power.' -- Adrienne Rich.  For the full poem, see our poetry thread.

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