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Heresy 194 Underworld


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2 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

I know Odin gets brought up a lot. Has the nature of his sacrifice been discussed before? By that I mean the threefold death of hanging, wounding, and poisoning. If Jon is the one and only savior of everyone then he would have to die twice more but if the Dragon (or Direwolf) has Three Heads and all that then perhaps there's two more rebirths that needs to occur for the Northern heroes/heroines? I know Brienne's been hanged and LmL has pointed out the lightbringer sword getting poisoned, which would fit with that. (Not saying Brienne will be one of the heads, just what hopped to mind first)

Might depend on how much Martin wants to hold to the Odin imagery--he may be fine with a "variation on a theme."

I'm not sold on Jon's being a dragon of any sort. But I could see the need for others connected to him to die. If he is a dragon--your options could work.

Whether he's a dragon or not--we've also got Bran, who got VERY close to death and is currently in his own underworld. And Sansa--bonded with a dead direwolf "you are your wolf and your wolf is you." And Arya in the House of Black and White. 

So, might be that the Starks are all so tied to death, that it takes all of them to pull this off.

As for Jon's being "the one and only savior of all"--I'm rather hoping it's more a group effort than a "Jon is Jesus!" moment. But I do think Jon's going to wake the sleepers (with or without help) and stand on the Wall in the next battle for the dawn.

2 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

But my favorite things you brought up, Sly Wren, were Jaime and Jon's dreams descending into the Underworld. I made a reddit post with this info before so it's not really "new" but idk if it's been discussed here. Jon and Jaime both descend under the home of the family they were raised by. In it they both are gripped by an intense terror, go down twisting staircases, and confront the bloodline of said family. Jon wakes before seeing the Kings of Winter but he thinks he can hear them say "This is not your place" whereas Jaime sees and confronts the shades of his family, chief of whom, Cersei, tells him "This is your place" and leaves with her torch (Jon mentions he doesn't have a torch when descending to the crypts), and leaves him in darkness where the usual split fire-sword analysis involving he and Brienne gets started.

YUP! I'd add that Jon's dreams seem to have progression and variants--whereas Jaime has his "get your act together" and "deal with guilt (or not)" dream in one go.

Jon dreams repeatedly of going into the crypts. Then, after finding the wight hand, dreams of going further than ever before into the crypts and seeing the Kings stumble out of their tombs. And thinks of this dream as they look at the soon-to-be-wights. Then keeps dreaming  lots of things, but when with Quorin, he dreams of "burning castles and dead men rising unquiet from their graves" (Clash, Jon VIII)--which seems to be tied to the Kings again. He only dreams of the "stone kings with granite tongues" telling him "this is not your place" after coming back from the wildling walkabout--and breaking his vows. (Storm, Jon XII). 

So, seems like Jon's dream is about his failings or perceived failings, not necessarily about not innately belonging.

And that fits with Jaime's--which may have been your point all along--feel free to yell at me if I've rambled for nothing. 

But Jon's Winterfell dreams prior to the granite tonged kings seem to be about something else.

2 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

So to tie it to FC/LmL's talk of volcanoes perhaps (using Schmendricko's hypothesis that lightbringer is a person and not just a sword) these two lightbringer archetypes descending into the underworld is them being 'cleansed by the flames of hell', (a mountain of fire) facing their unrecognized archetypal shadows and coming to grips with their failures as heroes?

I like it! It definitely gets Jaime to behave more like a person--and his Knightly ideal--in going back for Brienne.

Rather like the descent into the underworld to gain vital information. . . .but might be less "cleansed by fire" than "facing darkness of their own making." 

Maybe.

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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

...Agree on the 'psychedelic weed'...I've been telling you that ever since my eyes were opened by GRRM's overt reference ('down to a sunless sea,' etc.) of Coleridge's poem, 'Kubla Khan', written by the poet after emerging from a trip on psychotropic drugs, on which Bloodraven's cavern is based.  And my deconstruction of the broomsticks and the curious practices of witches.

Let's remember, GRRM is an old hippie who was probably very enthusiastic -- at least in his imagination -- about entertaining the enlightenment-via-drug culture surrounding Pink Floyd (as @Cowboy Dan has mentioned), 'The Grateful Dead,' Aldous Huxley's 'The Doors of Perception,' Carlos Castaneda, and the like ...

I remember reading one interview GRRM said the name 'Weirwood' was a homage to 'Bob Weir' of the Dead.  Whether there is a deeper relationship, or just a hidden homage like with Wun-Wun/Phil Simms remains to be seen, but my guess is he just liked the name.

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3 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

The really crazy thing is I think Floyd's personal history is tied to some of the patterns too (you don't have to think that though, just an interesting idea I'm putting out). The original lead for the band 'Syd' Barrett did the same thing as Castaneda. The story is that basically he went crazy from too many drugs and hid away from the world. It's all very romanticized kind of like what Castaneda said: we don't get a view of who the guy really was, we just get an image through the lens of Barrett as a post-acid casualty story. Interestingly they only had one photo shoot with all five members of the band and in the shot most popularly used, Syd is staring up at the sun, which could be seen as "staring into the fire" too long and being filled with a terrible knowledge. Waters (who tried to control the band and then destroy it after he left -- Hammer of the Waters anyone? :P) is looking directly away from him, serving as the moon or inverted solar king, reflecting the light that the 'original king' sees, trying to control and manipulate others in the group to his own ends. Then what is left are the other three members looking right into the camera. An idea I've picked up in different places is the 5 turning into the 3 and it's currently in its infancy so I'm not going to go into it further but this would be a really great example of it. For asoiaf terms, Rhaegar says the dragon must have three heads then he and Aerys are killed off shortly afterward during Robert's Rebellion, so two heads are cut off. I might sound a little crazy but to be fair I feel a little crazy with this find haha.

Totally agree with your analysis of Floyd - Waters is a dick and the Floyd I like the least is the later stuff where he was in total control. Give me the every early Gilmore stuff first, followed by the Barrett stuff close 2nd (I just love Echoes and Gilmore's psychadelic playing). 

When Moqorro is on the ship with Tyrion and his five fiery fingers, two of them get lost in the storm. You might look at that scene. 

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3 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Boo, that's no fun. We need to listen to the entire Grateful Dead discography and listen for imported symbolism! :lol:

Look, nobody has written about the dark side of the moon than I have. We should perhaps start a thread for Dead / Floyd references in the series, I bet there are some nerds out there who already figured this shit out. 

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32 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Yeah I'm in the same boat but there certainly are a few jesus allusions I've seen others point out. Guess we'll just have to wait and see... yaay.

HA! Yes and

the show ran rampant with the Jonsus concept. Davos was clearly morphed into St. Peter.

33 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

I would agree, one of the inversions you mentioned for instance is that Jaime dreams of Brienne and goes back to save her but when Jon dreams of Ygritte dying in his dream he leaves her to her fate by staying at the Wall. There's a lot of parallels/inversions between Jon and Jaime which is what first drew my eye to the possibility of Jaime/Cersei as a bifurcated (or broken if you will) lightbringer.

Yes--or with Jaime and Brienne as a broken lightbringer. Twin swords, can't really fulfill their potential without each other.

And with Jon and Ygritte--talk about a no-win situation. He goes to her, they both probably die. Jaime at least had a good chance of saving Brienne. But it wouldn't make Jon's choice any less horrible.

33 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Actually yeah while reading your thoughts the first time it sparked an idea that I hadn't had before. I thought originally it was just Jon feeling guilty for whatever reason. But what if it's the Kings of Winter literally telling him "you don't belong?" What if they have seen him accept his vows in front of the weirwood and are telling him he belongs at the Wall? A few characters seem to be in similar positions at the end of AGOT as ADWD. For Jon he decides to leave the Wall and ride South to aid the Starks but is confronted by his Brothers. Jaime is similarly (about to be) captured by Catelyn in the Riverlands.. again.

I'm torn on this--I take your point: he may really be supposed to stay at the Wall.

But I doubt more and more that the original Watch was positioned at the Wall for life. Maintaining such a huge force there for that long is really, really impractical. Not to mention it keeps the Wall largely separate from the Westerosi consciousness--which seems to be part of why the current Watch has dwindled so badly.

Seems more reasonable to have men rotate in and out. Maybe men are sent to do a few years at the Wall. Then they go home--still watchmen. Still "watching." But not isolated at the Wall. 

So, telling Jon he doesn't belong "now". . . I'm tempted to think that's really guilt. Plus, that Winterfell dream he repeatedly has being called into the crypts, saying he's not a Stark but knowing he must go--that seems like it repeated too often to not be a key. ... 

40 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

You really like to qualify your statements with that maybe I see! :P

HA! Well--everything's pretty "maybe" until we get the next books.

40 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

With Jon his whole conflict has been about whether to fulfill his duty or help his family and desert. Think about Ned: he never thinks "ugh I just hate violence against children" or "Man, dead babies are just THE WORST!" because it's a part of his beliefs so deeply he doesn't have to think about it, we can read between the lines and see that the imagery haunts him and leads him to show mercy towards Cersei. Jon on the other hand is constantly telling himself "The Watch takes no part" and other self-assurances because ultimately he wants to desert and take up his Stark heritage. That just conflicts with the heroic, self-sacrificing image he has of himself. Facing his own darkness is an excellent way of summing that up :) 

Amen. And :cheers:

40 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

And yeah I wasn't being literal with the flames of hell thing, just the meaning behind it: it's a crucible that's designed to make them better but it's a difficult and painful process.

Agreed.

41 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

It's okay, I'll just yell in a whisper. DAMMIT SLY WREN THAT'S WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY QUIT STEALING MY THUNDER! :whip:

Very sorry! :leaving:

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

remember reading one interview GRRM said the name 'Weirwood' was a homage to 'Bob Weir' of the Dead.  Whether there is a deeper relationship, or just a hidden homage like with Wun-Wun/Phil Simms remains to be seen, but my guess is he just liked the name.

Oh no! This is blasphemy, ser! @Codename: Nymeria made it VERY clear: the Grateful Dead is the key to all in asoiaf. 

43 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Boo, that's no fun. We need to listen to the entire Grateful Dead discography and listen for imported symbolism! :lol:

 

38 minutes ago, LmL said:

Look, nobody has written about the dark side of the moon than I have. We should perhaps start a thread for Dead / Floyd references in the series, I bet there are some nerds out there who already figured this shit out. 

The Nerd in question would be the above named @Codename: Nymeria. See here.

Don't know if there's one on Pink Floyd yet, though.

 

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On Sat Jan 14 2017 at 6:31 PM, Sly Wren said:

But as for why the Others returned, for now, I'm buying @Voice's take on the fight at the tower of joy--only then do we get anything described as "blue as the eyes of death."

I can't find that phrase anywhere else in the novels--the Others' and wights' eyes are describes a bright like blue stars. Or burning blue. But nothing gets called "blue as the eyes of death." Only those rose petals at the moment Ned fights Arthur and Arthur's "alive with light" sword (the last two clear things Ned sees before the "rush of steel and shadow" of the fight).

 Seems like that really might be a moment when something . . . broke.

 

Exactly. 

 

:commie::commie::commie:

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24 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes--or with Jaime and Brienne as a broken lightbringer. Twin swords, can't really fulfill their potential without each other.

Have you picked up on the pun with "as dawn broke over the city", etc, which appears from time to time? You are talking about a broken Lightbringer sword, but one that burns with pale flame or silvery blue flame. Makes me think of a broken Dawn. The last hero broke his sword too. 

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2 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Was just making a joke but that's awesome to see! I'll try to get around to that, I've enjoyed what little I've heard of GD.

Here's something you might enjoy Cowboy Dan.... The Annotated Greatful Dead.  I came across when I was looking for references to the Mountains of the Moon.

http://artsites.ucsc.edu/GDead/agdl/moon.html

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7 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

 

But I doubt more and more that the original Watch was positioned at the Wall for life. Maintaining such a huge force there for that long is really, really impractical. Not to mention it keeps the Wall largely separate from the Westerosi consciousness--which seems to be part of why the current Watch has dwindled so badly.

Seems more reasonable to have men rotate in and out. Maybe men are sent to do a few years at the Wall. Then they go home--still watchmen. Still "watching." But not isolated at the Wall. 

 

 

 

That rather depends on what the original Watch was really about. If we go back to the theory that there were only a handful [13?] serving as keepers of the Black Gate I don't see a problem with their being a small but intense monastic order; they themselves being given or sacrificed to the Wall.

Where it got out of hand was their sending prisoners of war up there - remember the accomodation for 500 prisoners in the Nightfort? Those weren't for captured Wildlings, those were for the Andals.

 

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8 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Plus, that Winterfell dream he repeatedly has being called into the crypts, saying he's not a Stark but knowing he must go--that seems like it repeated too often to not be a key. ... 

 

 

That's cos despite his up-bringing he really is a Stark [not a Targaryen] He's fighting it but he still has to go because as Maester Aemon told him he is a son of Winterfell

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3 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Oh God, that's far better than anything I could have hoped for. I don't think I can follow up something like that, I don't have the comedic wit for it. Hell, even your own contributions to that thread are just gold. I can't recall the specific thread but I remember a conversation you were involved in really changed some of my views on the series. But after that I'm in awe :wub: You're powers of BS analysis are astounding and hilarious. After that I think I need some sleep.

I keep seeing this mentioned. Is there a good thread on this or is it just a recurring notion in Heresy that's been discussed before?

I don't know about a topic, but it's a notion that's been discussed in the general forum as well.

When Mormont gives Jon Long Claw, he thinks that no matter how many swords they give him, Eddard Stark will always be his true father (to paraphrase).  Ned was the man who raised him with his family as his own son.  No matter the blood relation they share, Ned is his true father. 

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16 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I'll 'see' you over there...

Agree on the 'psychedelic weed'...I've been telling you that ever since my eyes were opened by GRRM's overt reference ('down to a sunless sea,' etc.) of Coleridge's poem, 'Kubla Khan', written by the poet after emerging from a trip on psychotropic drugs, on which Bloodraven's cavern is based.  And my deconstruction of the broomsticks and the curious practices of witches.

Let's remember, GRRM is an old hippie who was probably very enthusiastic -- at least in his imagination -- about entertaining the enlightenment-via-drug culture surrounding Pink Floyd (as @Cowboy Dan has mentioned), The Grateful Dead, Aldous Huxley's 'The Doors of Perception,' Carlos Castaneda, and the like:

 

You need to see the 'gowns of weirwood' less literally (can't believe I'm telling you to be less literal..!  :))  The important thing is not that they are gowns or tapestries, but that they are woven -- and 'weaving' beyond a doubt is associated in the text with magic, e.g.:

etc.

Thus, "weaving gowns of silver (or 'silva')" can be understood as weaving magic spells via weirwood.  In fact, donning such a magical gown is akin symbolically to skinchanging a tree, a wolf, or other creature or element.  As the inhabitants -- and spouses -- of the weirwood, the greenseers are wearing magical tree gowns, just as the Others do.  I think of the gowns in question as their wedding gowns!

'Her wounds came from the same source as her power.' -- Adrienne Rich.  For the full poem, see our poetry thread.

Whenever I read your links I fall down a rabbit hole. lol REALLY enjoyed the imagery of greenseers as wearing weirwood gowns...they are married to the tree. I quite agree. I'd like to circle back to this later on, but I've got more reading to do first. Just stopping in to give you some kudos.

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8 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

 

I keep seeing this mentioned. Is there a good thread on this or is it just a recurring notion in Heresy that's been discussed before?

Depends on how you define Heresy. Its certainly something we've discussed a lot here on Heresy rather than on some other thread.The basic argument is that Jon is indeed the son of Lyanna - there's far too much evidence pointing to that. As to his father R+L=J may very well be true; however the theory here is that it doesn't matter. The red herring is the far too easy assumption that it means Jon is a lost Targaryen prince. Some of us are arguing that really matters is that he's a son of Winterfell, just as Bael's son by the Lord Brandon's daughter was a son of Winterfell and ultimately Lord of Winterfell despite his bastardy and despite his father.

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14 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

 

@Voice would you mind tossing a brother a link? Would be quite interested in seeing this supposed thread.

 

Brothers get as many links as they want. :cheers:

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/386/ice-dawn-updated

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/825/weirwood-ghost

 

14 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Has anyone talked about blue roses in-depth before? Not that I want to, just curious! Found it interesting that they're artificially created and the wiki page on the cultural significance portion says:

Quote

In some cultures, blue roses are traditionally associated with "blue" royal blood, and thus the blue rose can also denote regal majesty and splendor. Due to the absence in nature of blue roses they have come to symbolise mystery and longing to attain the impossible, with some cultures going so far as to say that the holder of a blue rose will have his wishes granted.

I feel we were recently talking about individuals using magic to become gods here, feel free correct me if I'm mis-remembering. A blue rose seems a pretty solid connection of an individual person reaching for that status of godhood.

 

As it happens, I broke down blue roses quite a bit in this convo with @wolfmaid7:

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/53/death-baby-curious-lyanna-stark?page=8&scrollTo=38612

 

And "reaching for godhood" is not far off the mark, regarding Lyanna imo. It is my belief that the mother wolf we met in Bran I AGOT was Lyanna's, and that she sent her son Ghost from Winterfell's crypts. Those crypts have great WiFi, given the weirwood that grows from them... Have you read Bitterblooms and A Song for Lya? I have links for those as well:

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/1026/1000-worlds-bitterblooms

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/1009/1000-worlds-song-lya

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8 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

I keep seeing this mentioned. Is there a good thread on this or is it just a recurring notion in Heresy that's been discussed before?

With all due respect to Black Crow, it's not so much a theory as it is Black Crow relentlessly advocating for his vision of what Jon's story should be: Jon's not allowed to be the Prince that was Promised, he's not allowed to be a contender for the Iron Throne, he's not allowed to have Rhaegar impact his personal journey in any way.

It's not really a reaction to the text, it's a reaction to Westeros.org discussions of Jon; for whatever reason, it really bothers BC that some people think Jon might be Azor Ahai, or one of the three heads of the dragons.

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30 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

With all due respect to Black Crow, it's not so much a theory as it is Black Crow relentlessly advocating for his vision of what Jon's story should be: Jon's not allowed to be the Prince that was Promised, he's not allowed to be a contender for the Iron Throne, he's not allowed to have Rhaegar impact his personal journey in any way.

It's not really a reaction to the text, it's a reaction to Westeros.org discussions of Jon; for whatever reason, it really bothers BC that some people think Jon might be Azor Ahai, or one of the three heads of the dragons.

 

While I've oft clashed with BC over similar issues, particularly when I too believed Jon to be the son of Rhaegar. But, there is much to be said for @Black Crow's advocacy of 'bastardy' itself.

I think the text shares his argument, in truth. And I think he will be rewarded for his persistence in this area. 

So while BC might become a little dogmatic at times on this point, and a large deal of that is likely a result of dogma in a certain other place, I do think there is much and more to be said for the strength of Jon's story as a bastard. I share BC's belief that his mother will prove far more influential than his father in his storyline. 

 

26 minutes ago, LmL said:

* * * quietly walks out of room * * *

 

LOL! 

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54 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

With all due respect to Black Crow, it's not so much a theory as it is Black Crow relentlessly advocating for his vision of what Jon's story should be: Jon's not allowed to be the Prince that was Promised, he's not allowed to be a contender for the Iron Throne, he's not allowed to have Rhaegar impact his personal journey in any way.

It's not really a reaction to the text, it's a reaction to Westeros.org discussions of Jon; for whatever reason, it really bothers BC that some people think Jon might be Azor Ahai, or one of the three heads of the dragons.

That's because the promised Azor Ahai is some foreign interloper from out east and what goes down in Westeros is going to have to be dealt with by the children of Winterfell, of whom Jon is but one member of the pack. :D

:commie:

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48 minutes ago, Voice said:

While I've oft clashed with BC over similar issues, particularly when I too believed Jon to be the son of Rhaegar. But, there is much to be said for @Black Crow's advocacy of 'bastardy' itself.

I think the text shares his argument, in truth. And I think he will be rewarded for his persistence in this area. 

So while BC might become a little dogmatic at times on this point, and a large deal of that is likely a result of dogma in a certain other place, I do think there is much and more to be said for the strength of Jon's story as a bastard. I share BC's belief that his mother will prove far more influential than his father in his storyline. 

The bolded is the part that bothers me. Lyanna is deeply important to Jon's journey, and certainly will be more important to Jon's sense of self if he should ever discover the truth of his parentage (assuming that Lyanna is his mother).

The reason I'm scolding BC on this issue is because the answer to discussions that are dogmatic and narrow-minded in service of a specific conclusion is to have open-minded, good faith discussions--not to be dogmatic and narrow-minded in service of a different conclusion.

I'm sorry if I'm being a dick here, and if this is awkward for people, but I'm voicing this criticism for the precise reason that I don't want this thread to be the RLJ thread, yet there are a number of issues - Jon, Bloodraven, the question of who created the Others - where I believe dogmatism has been a detriment to discussion.

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1 hour ago, LmL said:

* * * quietly walks out of room * * *

Since you're sneaking out of the room, I'll tap your shoulder and try to preface my doubts by saying while I think your essays are brilliant, thoughtful and well reasoned, I still don't believe Rhaegar is Jon's father. Not because I also believe his Stark blood is what's important (which it is), but also because it feels off balanced for me. He should be all ice like Dany is all fire. They are the two main characters of which the song of ice and fire is about and inversions of each other. Jon supposedly has more of the north in him and should have two parents of northern icy stock. He should be burning black ice through and through, so I am expecting a twist and maybe someone no one has ever thought of before. 

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