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Heresy 194 Underworld


Black Crow

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6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Since you're sneaking out of the room, I'll tap your shoulder and try to preface my doubts by saying while I think your essays are brilliant, thoughtful and well reasoned, I still don't believe Rhaegar is Jon's father. Not because I also believe his Stark blood is what's important (which it is), but also because it feels off balanced for me. He should be all ice like Dany is all fire. They are the two main characters of which the song of ice and fire is about and inversions of each other. Jon supposedly has more of the north in him and should have two parents of northern icy stock. He should be burning black ice through and through, so I am expecting a twist and maybe someone no one has ever thought of before. 

I have to agree with Feather here.  I do enjoy LML's thought provoking anlysis; but I am just not buying the conclusions about Jon's father at this point.  I'm expecting the unexpected and I don't have clue what that will look like.

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53 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

That's because the promised Azor Ahai is some foreign interloper from out east and what goes down in Westeros is going to have to be dealt with by the children of Winterfell, of whom Jon is but one member of the pack. :D

:commie:

Maybe. Or maybe "Azor Ahai" is just one foreign version of a figure that will eventually arise in Westeros; when we see prophecies of TPTWP, the Stallion that Mounts the World, Azor Ahai, or even the Green Grace in Meereen referencing the blood of the dragon and the blood of the harpy combining to "fulfill the prophecies," are we seeing a bunch of different prophecies, or are we seeing cultural variations of the same prophecy/same figure?

Given that this is a story about Westeros, we might reasonably assume that all of this other stuff that GRRM has spent thousands of pages on outside of House Stark - Tyrion, Dany, Azor Ahai, etc. - actually has a place in his end game for Westeros.

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16 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Since you're sneaking out of the room, I'll tap your shoulder and try to preface my doubts by saying while I think your essays are brilliant, thoughtful and well reasoned, I still don't believe Rhaegar is Jon's father. Not because I also believe his Stark blood is what's important (which it is), but also because it feels off balanced for me. He should be all ice like Dany is all fire. They are the two main characters of which the song of ice and fire is about and inversions of each other. Jon supposedly has more of the north in him and should have two parents of northern icy stock. He should be burning black ice through and through, so I am expecting a twist and maybe someone no one has ever thought of before. 

Thank you @Feather Crystal, that's very nice of you to say, and I am more than happy that people who don't agree with all of my ideas still like and enjoy my stuff. It was always my intent to shine a light on as many things as possible and let people make of it what they will and run with it or pick and choose what makes sense to them. As for RLJ, it's far from the main point of my ideas anyway, I just seem to keep finding symbolism which I believe supports it and personally, I am pretty sold on RLJ. Anyway that's cool that you can still get something from my writing despite that, so cheers :) 

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19 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Even in our world there are all manner of heroes prophecied to return or otherwise arise, but they can't all be King Arthur B)

Our world is not a piece of fiction that has been specifically fashioned by a single mind, where legends and myths might be part of a planned framework--and, more importantly, where the ability to see the future is real, and multiple seers spread across the globe may have all seen variations of the same vision, and applied their cultural biases and point of view to that vision.

At a minimum, we might question whether or not a recurring theme of heroes with a burning sword might have some relationship to, say, Jon and Jamie having dreams about burning swords, and whether these things have any relationship to the Last Hero and "dragonsteel." We might ask these questions because, in asking the question, you are not somehow obligated to commit yourself to any single conclusion of what will eventually happen in the story--you know, the mistake that the RLJ thread has made?

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32 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I have to agree with Feather here.  I do enjoy LML's thought provoking anlysis; but I am just not buying the conclusions about Jon's father at this point.  I'm expecting the unexpected and I don't have clue what that will look like.

SCHMOBERT!!!  :P

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1 hour ago, Voice said:

While I've oft clashed with BC over similar issues, particularly when I too believed Jon to be the son of Rhaegar. But, there is much to be said for @Black Crow's advocacy of 'bastardy' itself.

I think the text shares his argument, in truth. And I think he will be rewarded for his persistence in this area. 

So while BC might become a little dogmatic at times on this point, and a large deal of that is likely a result of dogma in a certain other place, I do think there is much and more to be said for the strength of Jon's story as a bastard. I share BC's belief that his mother will prove far more influential than his father in his storyline. 

He has 'more of the north in him than his siblings' -- regardless of dragon father (and anyway, there are plenty of dragons at home in the north) -- case closed!

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3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Schmetterling - I had to look that up.  LOLOL!

"Hey man, did you see that schmetterling just now?"
"Yeah, my face still hurts."

LOL -- I also had to look up what you in turn meant  -- and now I'm regretting it...:wacko:  I definitely wasn't aware of that connotation.  For a change, my discourse was innuendo free, just an innocent butterfly and a bit of absurdity, nothing further was intended!

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5 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

LOL -- I also had to look up what you in turn meant  -- and now I'm regretting it...:wacko:  I definitely wasn't aware of that connotation.  For a change, my discourse was innuendo free, just an innocent butterfly and a bit of absurdity, nothing further was intended!

Hilarious!  I know what you meant.

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56 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

At a minimum, we might question whether or not a recurring theme of heroes with a burning sword might have some relationship to, say, Jon and Jamie having dreams about burning swords, and whether these things have any relationship to the Last Hero and "dragonsteel." We might ask these questions because, in asking the question, you are not somehow obligated to commit yourself to any single conclusion of what will eventually happen in the story--you know, the mistake that the RLJ thread has made?

And by that same minimum if dreams are to be followed we have at least two possible wielders of fiery blades, a wolf and a lion but not a dragon.

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

And by that same minimum if dreams are to be followed we have at least two possible wielders of fiery blades, a wolf and a lion but not a dragon.

Doesn't Brienne end up with the fiery blade in that dream?

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2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

The bolded is the part that bothers me. Lyanna is deeply important to Jon's journey, and certainly will be more important to Jon's sense of self if he should ever discover the truth of his parentage (assuming that Lyanna is his mother).

The reason I'm scolding BC on this issue is because the answer to discussions that are dogmatic and narrow-minded in service of a specific conclusion is to have open-minded, good faith discussions--not to be dogmatic and narrow-minded in service of a different conclusion.

I'm sorry if I'm being a dick here, and if this is awkward for people, but I'm voicing this criticism for the precise reason that I don't want this thread to be the RLJ thread, yet there are a number of issues - Jon, Bloodraven, the question of who created the Others - where I believe dogmatism has been a detriment to discussion.

 

No, I completely agree. As I prefaced my previous comment, I've oft tussled with BC over the same. And yes, dogma of any kind is no friend of mine. Hence our extreme brand of open-mindedness at The Last Hearth.

But, a hesitance to jump aboard the very popular train to RLJ-land is to be commended. I think it demonstrates a level of critical thinking not often employwed on this site. 

Until Jon's parentage is revealed... it simply isn't. 

Yet, many assume it has been, operate upon that assumption, then spin hundreds of threads built upon that assumption. While that is all for the good, in my opinion, it should always be remembered that such is fan speculation, fan theory, and at times, fan fiction. 

What is bad, again, only my two coppers, is when that fan narrative overpowers and displaces all other fan narratives. If we imagine a single member as a ray of light, directed at the mosiac of asoiaf, what we should want is hundreds of points of light to better illuminate the mosaic. 

RLJ tends to focus and narrow many rays of light through a single lens. 

And regardless of how obvious/not obvious you believe RLJ to be, I don't think an argument can be made that validates use of a single lense. 

So while I do believe Heresy is the best thread at the W, precisely because it encourages mutiple and varying rays of light, I do quite agree with you that such diversity should not be hindered by dogma (hence our little Hearth). 

So you're preaching to the choir. There's nothing I dislike more than detriments to discussion. The conversation is the reward. 

 

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

He has 'more of the north in him than his siblings' -- regardless of dragon father (and anyway, there are plenty of dragons at home in the north) -- case closed!

 

"More of the north" can only be true if Jon's mother and father were both Northroners. A scenario I certainly like. :) 

Benjen didn't go to the Wall for nothin'. ;)

 

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Maybe. Or maybe "Azor Ahai" is just one foreign version of a figure that will eventually arise in Westeros; when we see prophecies of TPTWP, the Stallion that Mounts the World, Azor Ahai, or even the Green Grace in Meereen referencing the blood of the dragon and the blood of the harpy combining to "fulfill the prophecies," are we seeing a bunch of different prophecies, or are we seeing cultural variations of the same prophecy/same figure?

Given that this is a story about Westeros, we might reasonably assume that all of this other stuff that GRRM has spent thousands of pages on outside of House Stark - Tyrion, Dany, Azor Ahai, etc. - actually has a place in his end game for Westeros.

 

I think the AA myth is simply one of many borrowed embellishments of the events surrounding the Last Hero and his "dragonsteel" blade... each having been incorporated into various Essosi cultures (Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, Eldric Shadowchaser). 

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

And by that same minimum if dreams are to be followed we have at least two possible wielders of fiery blades, a wolf and a lion but not a dragon.

 

Or, put more broadly, we have two First Men and zero Valyrians/Andals/Rhoynar. 

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13 minutes ago, Voice said:

 

Or, put more broadly, we have two First Men and zero Valyrians/Andals/Rhoynar. 

Technically the Lannisters might have more than a tincture of Andal blood but in broad terms they do seem to be more First Men than anything else.

Actually I was being slightly naughty in referencing the wolf and the lion because in the infamous 1993 synopsis GRRM does have a line about how the wolf and the lion must hunt together 

:commie:

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Just now, Black Crow said:

Technically the Lannisters might have more than a tincture of Andal blood but in broad terms they do seem to be more First Men than anything else.

Actually I was being slightly naughty in referencing the wolf and the lion because in the infamous 1993 synopsis GRRM does have a line about how the wolf and the lion must hunt together 

:commie:

Naughty minds think alike. I was referencing the same letter in my reply. LOL

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31 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Doesn't Brienne end up with the fiery blade in that dream?

Yes and no, now you mention it, she gets one too, but then after a time his goes out and only hers remains so perhaps she is fated to be the last hero :D

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17 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Yes and no, now you mention it, she gets one too, but then after a time his goes out and only hers remains so perhaps she is fated to be the last hero :D

Specifically he gives her the sword that is given to him.  When the light goes out; so will he. Brienne is the light.  If anyone is working the Sir Galahad legend on a grail hunt; it's Brienne.  And given her worthiness and the imagery around her: Ser Duncan's shield of the oak and tree and falling star along with Evenfall's eveningstar imagery;  it wouldn't surprise me if Brienne ends up wielding two swords like Ser Arthur. Or that she is the white lion walking through the grass 'taller than a man' represented in Dany's HoU vision.  That would be EPIC! LOL

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