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Heresy 194 Underworld


Black Crow

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Just now, LynnS said:

Specifically he gives her the sword that is given to him.  When the light goes out; so will he. Brienne is the light.  If anyone is working the Sir Galahad legend on a grail hunt; it's Brienne.  And given her worthiness and the imagery around her: Ser Duncan's shield of the oak and tree and falling star along with Evenfall's eveningstar imagery;  it wouldn't surprise me if Brienne ends up wielding two swords like Ser Arthur. Or that she is the white lion represented in Dany's HoU vision.  That would be EPIC! LOL

They each end up with one. Jaime starts off on his own with a fiery sword. Brienne then appears, naked and in chains and begs him to cut them, which he does. She then begs for a sword and it appears... "Brienne's sword took flame as well..." and then later "...his sword went dark, and only Brienne's burned, as the ghosts came rushing in."

At which point he screams and wakes up, but between the two quotes they each have their own flaming sword.

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1 hour ago, Voice said:

The conversation is the reward. 

This is exactly how I feel. I think one of the worst things to happen to a discussion of fiction is for us to become bogged down by the idea of arriving at the correct theory--to become too infatuated with the notion that it's an accomplishment to predict what a 68 year old man in Santa Fe is eventually going to write, when he himself seems perpetually incapable of accurately predicting what he will eventually write.

Better to have an interesting, but ultimately inaccurate discussion right now, while we're all interested in ASOIAF, than to worry about whether or not we'll be vindicated in 2024 when ADOS comes out, and we've all moved on.

And I'm not saying that I myself don't fall into this trap, so I deserve to be called out as well if all I'm offering in response to someone else's ideas is incredulity and skepticism. 

1 hour ago, Voice said:

I think the AA myth is simply one of many borrowed embellishments of the events surrounding the Last Hero and his "dragonsteel" blade... each having been incorporated into various Essosi cultures (Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, Eldric Shadowchaser). 


This is the notion I was toying with, which is why I brought up seers; perhaps the story of the LH traveled eastward and was bastardized along the way, but an alternative is that the struggles of the LH were so monumental that, like the Red Wedding, it was something that showed up in visions across Planetos--with each culture and seer putting their own local "spin" on the vision.

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

And by that same minimum if dreams are to be followed we have at least two possible wielders of fiery blades, a wolf and a lion but not a dragon.

Well...one of them might be half dragon. This does get to the essential point though, that there are certain nagging bits of information that may contradict the notion that Azor Ahai is necessarily an eastern figure, or that he's even a dragon.

At the risk of getting into crackpot territory, we have things like Dawn, dragonsteel, and even House Dayne's physical features that all evoke Valyrian magic, but seem as though they might predate Valyria--possibly by as much as 2,000 years. Now, one perspective of this is that the oral history or the timelines are screwed up, but what if the timelines aren't wrong?

If this is a story about Westeros, is it entirely impossible that the root of what eventually became Valyrian magic first arose in the west and migrated to the east, rather than the other way around? Dragonglass, tunnels hollowed out by firewyrms, active volcanoes--these things may more immediately put us in mind of fire, but they're also all very much of the earth.

Crackpot speculation, I'll grant, but so is the notion of a bunch of shepherds bumbling their way around a bunch of active volcanoes and becoming the first dragon tamers. At the least, I suspect that the first Valyrian dragons were awakened from dead stone, rather than tamed--awakened by men and women with fire in their blood.

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38 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Specifically he gives her the sword that is given to him.  When the light goes out; so will he. Brienne is the light

Without delving into what it might be foreshadowing, that's always been one of my favorite visions in the series--Brienne is literally fighting off the spirits of Jamie's past failed vows with Oathkeeper, the last burning symbol of his vow to Catelyn that he'd see her daughters safely returned to Winterfell. It's the struggle to restore his sense of honor.

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37 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Without delving into what it might be foreshadowing, that's always been one of my favorite visions in the series--Brienne is literally fighting off the spirits of Jamie's past failed vows with Oathkeeper, the last burning symbol of his vow to Catelyn that he'd see her daughters safely returned to Winterfell. It's the struggle to restore his sense of honor.

Just so Matthew!  The white lions of African legend are female.  Of course Dany has been given the pelt of a white lion; but is she taller than a man? As Lord Commander of the KG; Jaime could be the white lion except that Brienne is acting on his behalf with the sword that was given to him.  If Jaime is the golden man could Brienne then be the white lion?  The question I keep asking myself.   Brienne's oath to find the Stark girls or perhaps specifically Sansa, is a kind of Merovingian grail quest to my mind.

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2 hours ago, Voice said:

"More of the north" can only be true if Jon's mother and father were both Northroners. A scenario I certainly like. :) 

Benjen didn't go to the Wall for nothin'. ;)

OK...I'm gonna go ahead and do it...BUMPIN' FOR BENJEN! LOL

2 hours ago, Voice said:

I think the AA myth is simply one of many borrowed embellishments of the events surrounding the Last Hero and his "dragonsteel" blade... each having been incorporated into various Essosi cultures (Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, Eldric Shadowchaser).

I have to throw my inversion hat into the Azor Ahai speculations and say that this is the story for the "fire side" and the destruction that already happened. Azor Ahai forged his swords in order to fight the darkness that lay over the land. If we posit that the land in question was Essos, what historical darkness was reported over there? Was it a literal darkness or was it metaphorical like the repression of peoples/slaves?

The Valyrian slaves worked underground, in the dark, and in some cases bent over and in extreme heat. Could the darkness be a metaphor for the situation the slaves found themselves under?

Is there any other period of darkness that could explain what happened in Essos, or were they affected by the Long Night also? We don't have any reports that they dealt with white walkers in Essos, but the darkness of the Long Night may have encompassed them too. If the Long Night encompassed Essos, then who did Azor Ahai hope to fight? Whatever Azor Ahai did I think we could consider connecting it to the Doom and the resulting devastation that has already happened.

Did Azor Ahai fail? If we're expecting inversions then I suspect he failed, even though he forged a great sword tempered in Nissa Nissa. And what if Nissa NIssa was actually two volcanoes? One being the Mother of Mountains and the other exploded and became the Womb of the World, then his sword pierced the heart of a live volcano. Yet that doesn't explain what happened first to lead to the need to blow up a volcano. 

What I do know about Essos is that there are several areas where devastation already happened:

Valyria - the Doom predeceased by the eruption of multiple volcanos

Asshai by the Shadow

Dothraki Ghost Grass

The Sorrows where the Stone Men "live"

Aren't these areas for us to wonder what happened and why whatever was done "failed"? Back to the idea of inversions, can we apply inversions to everything we know about Essos and theorize what may happen in Westeros including a diversion that is a success?

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2 hours ago, Voice said:

What is bad, again, only my two coppers, is when that fan narrative overpowers and displaces all other fan narratives. If we imagine a single member as a ray of light, directed at the mosiac of asoiaf, what we should want is hundreds of points of light to better illuminate the mosaic. 

RLJ tends to focus and narrow many rays of light through a single lens.

:agree:

So much so that that the series title is often assumed, because of RLJ to mean Jon, to mean that Jon is the protagonist, when this is really a series that has no protagonist (unless it's Westeros).

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

to become too infatuated with the notion that it's an accomplishment to predict what a 68 year old man in Santa Fe is eventually going to write, when he himself seems perpetually incapable of accurately predicting what he will eventually write

Often true.  If you asked him how many chapters ADOS will have, I'm sure he'd say he has no idea.  He does improvise quite a bit, as you would expect a gardener to do.

But I think he's always known, re certain key mysteries, what the true answers would be... just as gardeners know which seeds they planted in previous years.  Otherwise, he couldn't have been dropping subtle and ambiguous clues about those mysteries since the first book -- a thing he's told us he did. 

So we can reasonably speculate about what those mysteries are, what the relevant clues are, and what the truths will turn out to be if they're included in the next book... which barring catastrophe should be published long before 2024 (going by his latest remarks, in fact, sometime this year).

I think Jon's parentage will be one of those revealed mysteries, and I don't think it will be at all unclear when he reveals it, and that means some people really will just be correct, while others aren't.  If so, it wouldn't be a prediction of what he will write, so much as an analysis of what he has written.  

But I admit that might be wishful thinking.  We'll see.

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3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

This is exactly how I feel. I think one of the worst things to happen to a discussion of fiction is for us to become bogged down by the idea of arriving at the correct theory--to become too infatuated with the notion that it's an accomplishment to predict what a 68 year old man in Santa Fe is eventually going to write, when he himself seems perpetually incapable of accurately predicting what he will eventually write.

Better to have an interesting, but ultimately inaccurate discussion right now, while we're all interested in ASOIAF, than to worry about whether or not we'll be vindicated in 2024 when ADOS comes out, and we've all moved on.

And I'm not saying that I myself don't fall into this trap, so I deserve to be called out as well if all I'm offering in response to someone else's ideas is incredulity and skepticism. 

 

Sure, we all have opinions. Else, what's the point? 

But yeah, can't let those opinions become bias, and can't let that bias become dogma. Certainty is dressed in motley, when discussing an incomplete fantasy series. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

This is the notion I was toying with, which is why I brought up seers; perhaps the story of the LH traveled eastward and was bastardized along the way, but an alternative is that the struggles of the LH were so monumental that, like the Red Wedding, it was something that showed up in visions across Planetos--with each culture and seer putting their own local "spin" on the vision.

 

Makes sense. So long as the Essosi tales are borrowings of the Last Hero's historical adventure, we have an accord. LOL

 

 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

OK...I'm gonna go ahead and do it...BUMPIN' FOR BENJEN! LOL

HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

Bump! 

And before you bump, bump it twice. After you bump, must bump it thrice.

And when you can't remember how many times you've bumped, then you have to BUMP!

Ben's knows Bastards folks. That's all I'm gonna say. :commie:

And thank you Melifeather Crystandre for reminding me to bump that thread! (It helps Ben get home faster)

 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I have to throw my inversion hat into the Azor Ahai speculations and say that this is the story for the "fire side" and the destruction that already happened. Azor Ahai forged his swords in order to fight the darkness that lay over the land. If we posit that the land in question was Essos, what historical darkness was reported over there? Was it a literal darkness or was it metaphorical like the repression of peoples/slaves?

The Valyrian slaves worked underground, in the dark, and in some cases bent over and in extreme heat. Could the darkness be a metaphor for the situation the slaves found themselves under?

Is there any other period of darkness that could explain what happened in Essos, or were they affected by the Long Night also? We don't have any reports that they dealt with white walkers in Essos, but the darkness of the Long Night may have encompassed them too. If the Long Night encompassed Essos, then who did Azor Ahai hope to fight? Whatever Azor Ahai did I think we could consider connecting it to the Doom and the resulting devastation that has already happened.

Did Azor Ahai fail? If we're expecting inversions then I suspect he failed, even though he forged a great sword tempered in Nissa Nissa. And what if Nissa NIssa was actually two volcanoes? One being the Mother of Mountains and the other exploded and became the Womb of the World, then his sword pierced the heart of a live volcano. Yet that doesn't explain what happened first to lead to the need to blow up a volcano. 

What I do know about Essos is that there are several areas where devastation already happened:

Valyria - the Doom predeceased by the eruption of multiple volcanos

Asshai by the Shadow

Dothraki Ghost Grass

The Sorrows where the Stone Men "live"

Aren't these areas for us to wonder what happened and why whatever was done "failed"? Back to the idea of inversions, can we apply inversions to everything we know about Essos and theorize what may happen in Westeros including a diversion that is a success?

 

Inversions are interesting to me, but they tend to get rather convoluted when layering them back and forth, one upon the other. 

 

 

1 hour ago, JNR said:

:agree:

So much so that that the series title is often assumed, because of RLJ to mean Jon, to mean that Jon is the protagonist, when this is really a series that has no protagonist (unless it's Westeros).

Now you're speaking my language...

Have you by chance had time to check out my Weirwood Ghost theory? 

The hypothesis is that protagonist is indeed Westeros. The antagonist is man. Shake it up, add some heat, and boom goes the miasma.

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20 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Well I do have a brother so that makes me a brother :smug: Thanks for the links! I'll be sure to get around to them now. I'd read the first one but back when I was a little fledgeling without an account so I kind of dismissed it without giving it a real look. Also the different site layout was too much for my little brain to handle. I was like, "there's other asoiaf forums? ..the hell?" I'll be sure to read it a bit more seriously this time.

 

:cheers:

LOL yeah. Interface is way different, but way more stable. It spoils you. 

And thanks for checking out the first! It's a pet theory near and dear to this heretic. 

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1 hour ago, Cowboy Dan said:

I just got a ridiculous image of GRRM as Oprah going "you get to be Arthur and YOU get be Arthur and YOU get to be Arthur! Everyone gets to be King Arthur!" (yes even the girls)

"You're playing D&D, you're playing D&D... this whole apartment... is playing D&D"

 

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4 hours ago, JNR said:

I think Jon's parentage will be one of those revealed mysteries, and I don't think it will be at all unclear when he reveals it, and that means some people really will just be correct, while others aren't.  If so, it wouldn't be a prediction of what he will write, so much as an analysis of what he has written.  

Yes, some people will be correct, and others won't--but how much should we actually care about that prospect, as a factor in our discussions? If you have a sudden theory that you think is really cool, but isn't very likely to come true, should you just not bother to share it? If you put your idea out there, and give someone else that "Wow, why didn't I think of that!" feeling, is that valuable, or are our thoughts about ASOIAF only worthwhile if a 68 year old man in Santa Fe canonizes them?

I'm trying to keep a sense of perspective here. Of course it's neat to solve a mystery, to put together all the hints and arrive at the correct answer...on the other hand, the mystery at hand here is the parentage of a fictional character. Being on the right side of that debate is, perhaps, not terribly important.

I'd go as far as to say that there is a certain appeal in being wrong; to be wrong is to be surprised. How would it feel to wait 6+ years for WoW, read it, reach the end, and say "Welp...that went pretty much as I expected." Satisfying, or disappointing?

Edit: I should clarify that none of these are rhetorical questions, or raised to be condescending or insincere. I'm legitimately curious about what other posters value in their approach to discussing a fictional work. For example, if someone has spent a whole bunch of time discussing a particular idea, only to have that idea not come true, do they feel bad--like they've wasted their time?

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5 hours ago, Voice said:

 

Makes sense. So long as the Essosi tales are borrowings of the Last Hero's historical adventure, we have an accord. LOL

 

This comes up from time to time as a popular theory but there'd a big problem in that while the two [?] sets of stories are superficially similar in featuring a hero with a sword - and what self-respecting hero doesn't have a sword - they are also different.

Now it can certainly be argued that the Last Hero story has travelled east to become Azor Ahai but the problem is that the far eastern version has important embellishments which the original certainly doesn't have. Adding those embellishments out east is likely; forgetting them back home isn't. 

In other words it might successfully be argued [though I decline to agree] that the Last Hero and Azor Ahai were one and the same, but if the Hero returns he won't be forging a flaming sword or sticking it into his Nissa Nissa, he will be the Last Hero not the Azor Ahai of those ancient books of Asshai.

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52 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Last Hero not the Azor Ahai of those ancient books of Asshai.

same dude, or at least, a father - son deal. I'm telling you, the reason why the Great Empire of the Dawn theory is so important is that it explains how people from Asshai came to Westeros in the time before the Long Night, which creates a completely plausible means for the LH and AA to be the same person or related people.  I do think the important action went down in Westeros, but it was due in part to Azor Ahai from the east coming to Westeros with Lightbringer. You could say the myth then "travelled back" to the east, but it's not simply a Westerosi myth that migrated east. It's a myth born of contact between the two cultures. 

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I think we are seeing some early Valyrian influence in Westeros,  or preValyrian.  We have Winterfell, with an octagon tower with gargoyles,  similar to dragonstone.  We have the Daynes,  who were kings, with Valyrian features.  

We have no real evidence evidence everyone in Valyria had gold and silver hair and purple and blue eyes.  I think this was just the dragonlords, who came from another culture, and the other people looked normal.   We see them marrying each other to preserve there appearance (even before the fall) and we see these physical traits in the free cities where they had a lot of bastards. 

I think we had a powerful family of sorcerers, or even one individual,  from which house Dayne and the Dragonlords descended, with possible ties to Winterfell. 

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Everone keeps commenting on whether the old legends are from the East or West.  Think of Noah's Ark in our world.  Yes, we vaguely associate that with the middle east, and specifically Mt. Ararat in Turkey,  but I wouldn't assume someone is Turkish because they heard of Noah.  If this is based on fact, it could have happened anywhere,  and the culture telling the story is not necessarily related to the people in the story. 

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2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Everone keeps commenting on whether the old legends are from the East or West.  Think of Noah's Ark in our world.  Yes, we vaguely associate that with the middle east, and specifically Mt. Ararat in Turkey,  but I wouldn't assume someone is Turkish because they heard of Noah.  If this is based on fact, it could have happened anywhere,  and the culture telling the story is not necessarily related to the people in the story. 

Ah, but you're missing the point. Lets say for the sake of argument the Last Hero slew a lizard-lion, which I take to be some kind of crocodile or alligator. The story, as some would have it, then travels eastward where the Last Hero becomes Azor Ahai and the lizard-lion becomes a bloody great dragon. That's how stories evolve. He gets forgotten in Westeros because all he did was slay a lizard-lion but in Asshai he's remembered as a dragon-slayer with a magic sword. That's fine so long as its just a bed-time story but it don't work if you start expecting the Last Hero to "return" in Westeros with the magic sword and slaughtered dragon he never had in life on account of both growing in the telling as the story journeyed east.

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I don't recall if the stone men were brought up as part of the underworld? Is this just a contagious medical condition (grayscale), or is the disease of magical origin? It seems to be the inversion to wighting.

The wights are dead with bones that remember and the corpse can be raised to walk when conditions are dark and cold and the winds are rising. We've theorized in Heresy before if the bodies were infected with a type of virus or if this is the ice magic at play. It doesn't seem to be a true life, because they cannot move during daylight hours.

The stone men, on the other hand are living humans trapped in a rapidly hardening outer body, but it also seems as if the human inside cannot die. How else to explain that they continue to shuffle around even though they cannot drink or eat? We're told ice preserves and fire consumes, but becoming a stone man seems like it's only the flesh that is consumed while life is preserved inside. 

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They haven't been mentioned so far as I'm aware but given the very unlikely physiology of the condition, which seems to make leprosy sound like a mild cold, I would say that there has to be some magic involved in there somewhere.

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