Heresy 194 Underworld

[LordBlakeney]

14 hours ago, Black Crow said:

A possible explanation might be Thoros' resurrections by blowing fire into the dying by way of a last communion. Supposedly its this fire which animates them. Perhaps there's a cold blue "flame" inside the wights and its this which lights up the eyes.

This sounds spot on to me. The light was "flickering" in Thistle's eyes, calling to mind flame. And as others have said there are plenty of references to "burning ice" and the like - the Other's are definitely fiery ice and their wights are presumably animated by that same "cold that burns." 

I wonder when it was that Thistle makes the transition to wight - we know there is a cold wind blowing, hundreds of wights descend on the village when Thistle returns to try and wake Varamyr and get him moving as he lies nearly unconscious beneath the weirwood tree after his weirwood crutch goes out from under him. Then he tries to leap into her skin, she goes mad and they fight for control of her body. He takes over for a "brief moment" where he revels in sucking down the "frigid air" into her body -more cold wind?- before she's able to bite her tongue off and then gouge out her own eyes. It's then when he is drowning in blood that "the white world turned and fell away" and Varamyr seemingly goes into the weirwood - looking out as "a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes."

That's our last look at Thistle before she becomes a wight in what I would guess is the next couple of moments - she's still alive just mad. In that moment "some cold wind" seems to blow Varamyr out of the weirwood and he's the "wood, and everything that's in it" before his "true death" that feels like a shock of cold. I think it was the old outline of ASOIAF where Martin says the Others ride the cold winds. I would guess something about this cold wind is what animated Thistle and gave her the pale blue flickering eyes, and I'd even say it's possible this wind disrupted Varamyr staying in the weirwood and blew him out into the world again before he was able to join with his wolf. The inclusion of lots of blood and the mention of the moon in the scene obviously has lots of symbolism that other people can probably sort out better than me.

[LordBlakeney]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As I recall, young weirwoods grow straight and tall: quire aside from magical powers real and imagined that would produce a long straight grain, ideal for spears and arrows. It would probably make a good bow, or rather bows since a number of staves would be split from the the log.

Isn't there something about the Children of the Forest making weirwood bows? And we know they used obsidian - any thoughts on where they were getting the obsidian that they used and also traded with the Night's Watch? Stannis is mining it on Dragonstone, but I've never thought of the children having the industry to "mine" something. They live in caves, so obviously they could find it. Maybe the children have more connections to "fire magic" than we give them credit for. Children of the Forest living in old volcanoes? 

[LordBlakeney]

3 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

...or weirwood is in fact Nagga's bones, as @LmL and many others have suggested

I wonder if it's important that Ned thought Bran could become a High Septon, from GOT:

It does seem like there is more to the Faith than just a stand-in for medieval Catholicism. History of Westeros and @LmL speculated in their Great Empire of the Dawn episode about the origins of the "Starry Sept" in Oldtown and possible connections to the Church of Starry Wisdom. Lots of astronomical influence on the faith of the 7. Plus the weirwood staves keep turning up in the hands of priests like you pointed out.

[JNR]

10 minutes ago, LordBlakeney said:

any thoughts on where they were getting the obsidian that they used and also traded with the Night's Watch?

It seems quite possible Hardhome is close to a volcano.

Quote

Hardhome had been halfway toward becoming a town, the only true town north of the Wall, until the night six hundred years ago when hell had swallowed it. Its people had been carried off into slavery or slaughtered for meat, depending on which version of the tale you believed, their homes and halls consumed in a conflagration that burned so hot that watchers on the Wall far to the south had thought the sun was rising in the north. Afterward ashes rained down on haunted forest and Shivering Sea alike for almost half a year.

 

[Sly Wren]

On January 21, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Black Crow said:

The starry blue eyes are certainly suspicious and I'm far more inclined to interpret them as his being changed rather than his stuffing actual gemstones into the sockets, although we do have possible examples in Crowsfood and of course Euron, where one eye has been replaced.

Yes--I've been seeing the blue eyes as change--and potentially being "taken over." When Thistle's eye sockets glow blue, Varamyr thinks, "It saw." Granted, he means "the thing that had been Thistle." But--makes me think something else could be. . . .seeing out. Not unlike seeing through the trees.

On January 21, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Black Crow said:

As to the Hellhounds, are we really looking at Direwolves?

Yup! That's my take, too. Either actual direwolves or maybe even just Starks. Or Starks skinchanging their wolves. 

[Sly Wren]

On January 22, 2017 at 0:30 AM, LmL said:

Sly you may be interested to know that @ravenous reader found a quote where Stannis's eyes are like a deep blue sea - and working with RR's see / sea pun, that would be a blue seer, a blue eyed seer. Given that Stannis's symbolism is that of AA turning into the NK, I think this could simply be a clue about the NK or nk / AA being a greenseer, one who eventually ended up working through ice magic and creating new Others as "sacrificing to the Others" implies. So, yeah, greenseers and the Others - I wouldn't say greenseers controlling Others, but rather the origin of the Others having to do with greenseers learning to use 'ice magic,' so to speak.

OOHH! I'm liking this!

So much so, I searched the phrase. It's now making me re-think the "green Dothraki sea" and its relationship to the ghost grass. Dany "sees" a number of things on that green sea in Dance.

Not to mention the grey green sea of the Ironborn--vs. the blue sea of the Summer Isles. And in some of the descriptions, the seas is a "blue green sea"--like the potential Stannis pun.

So, if all of this punning holds at all--the Dothraki sea as a "greenseeing" type space. And--as many, many have surmised before me--the sea of the Ironborn as being tied to greenseers via the Drowned God (likely to be a greenseer).

Now if we only knew Martin's take on that old saying: "He that would pun would pick a pocket." 

On January 22, 2017 at 10:45 AM, Cowboy Dan said:

No, I think the hellhounds fighting is probably the confrontation with the Others at the Wall, if anything. I could also see it as a human fight over the control of a magical godhead and/or the Wall but I don't think it's something Symeon himself took part in, magic or no.

Maybe. That could work. But if the Direwolves are the hellhounds, and the hellhounds are fighting--are the hellhounds fighting each other or someone else? Bran's not expansive (someone needs to convince that kid to finish his thoughts). But if they are fighting each other--the Stark in Winterfell taking down the Night's King (Brandon Stark) would fit.

If the hellhounds are fighting against invaders--then yes--your interp holds very well.

And if Symeon was a knight (or something knight oriented as the stories suggest), then sound like he might definitely have been tied to the fight.

On January 22, 2017 at 10:45 AM, Cowboy Dan said:

Like Bran witnessing the sacrifice to the weirwood after eating the paste, it's an event he witnesses and can tell of but not one he has direct influence on. So Symeon explains to others, possibly trying to get out a warning but there's no way anyone would think it's an event literally thousands of years in the future. It's not like the average person can see into the future, it's just not in the frame of reference for storytelling in-world.

Interesting--or the story is lasting one way or another as a warning?

On January 22, 2017 at 10:45 AM, Cowboy Dan said:

Can't vouch for the Stannis transformation symbolism but I'm totally willing to cede the point. My idea was that basically Others are greenseers (blueseers?) that have been in their frozen wastes for so long, away from all other more 'normalized' human societies that their practices and ideas are inhuman in a sense. More like abnormal to the nth degree but appearing inhuman to regular folk. Conversely if the average Westerosi that doesn't worship weirwoods met Bloodraven, they'd consider him rather demonic and inhuman themselves. It's all about perspective and understanding is the great destroyer of fear after all. I feel once we get to understand the Others we'll see they're really not so "Other-y" (in a Psychological sense) but are just people warped by magic and time. So Symeon, like the priests of Boash, either got blinded or was blinded in order to practice his warging abilities, got Other-ized as a greenseer who used ice magic (making his eyes blue like sapphires) and then "married" himself to the trees.

I'm liking this. Given that we've got the potential green seeing with the Drowned God and the "green sea" pun for Dany's vision quest on the Dothraki sea--the idea that the Others are a version of greenseers--or transformed greenseers, or using similar magics--that could work very well.

Might even fit with my flight of fancy that something is seeing out of Thistle's ruined eye sockets. 

On January 22, 2017 at 10:45 AM, Cowboy Dan said:

I offhandedly mentioned earlier I think all godheads are fueled by a magical heart. The Warlocks and their indigo flaming heart, the greenseers and their heart trees, and for the Others it would be what Bran sees in his vision: the Heart of Winter.

Oh, yes! Not to mention that scene with the Undying reminds me of the description of Bloodraven's cave--there's a tie-in there, no question.

[LmL]

1 minute ago, Sly Wren said:

OOHH! I'm liking this!

So much so, I searched the phrase. It's now making me re-think the "green Dothraki sea" and its relationship to the ghost grass. Dany "sees" a number of things on that green sea in Dance.

Not to mention the grey green sea of the Ironborn--vs. the blue sea of the Summer Isles. And in some of the descriptions, the seas is a "blue green sea"--like the potential Stannis pun.

So, if all of this punning holds at all--the Dothraki sea as a "greenseeing" type space. And--as many, many have surmised before me--the sea of the Ironborn as being tied to greenseers via the Drowned God (likely to be a greenseer).

Now if we only knew Martin's take on that old saying: "He that would pun would pick a pocket." 

This thing is miles deep, a full forty fathoms five. We've been talking about it my green zombies thread and @hiemal's Nennymoan thread. It's a thing, a big thing. Yes, lot's of greenseer clues in that green grass sea, no doubt. Azor Ahai is a hero prophesied to be reborn in the sea - or is it, reborn in the 'see,' as Jon will soon be? 

And oh yeah, Patchface. Under the see. It's a whole new world... (breaks out into Little Mermaid theme)

And yes, it's another angle on the Ironborn and the grey king and their connection to greenseers. 

Truly, you would be welcome to add to our conversation about these matters... whenever you get a minute to catch up.

[LmL]

Oh and @Sly Wren and @Voice, I found this beauty of a quote:

The great fire that burned atop the Sharp Point watchtower at the end of Massey’s Hook reminded him of the ruby she wore at her throat, and when the world turned red at dawn and sunset the drifting clouds turned the same color as the silks and satins of her rustling gowns.

Maybe we can be friends again? LoL
 

[aDanceWithFlagons]

On 1/22/2017 at 5:19 PM, LordBlakeney said:

I agree. It stuck out to me in the prologue of A Dance With Dragons that Thistle tears her own eyes out, as in, the eyes are gone. Then we're told that the "pale blue light" was flickering "in the pits where her eyes had been." Sounds weird. Her eyes didn't just change colors, like we see in other places, instead her eyes are gone. In their place the blue light was flickering.

Not sure what the implications are, but its creepy as hell. 

A magical version of  electrostatic charge/discharge? That's an idea I've tossed around. The blue, star eyes and the Others power through their ice swords reminds me of blue lightening. Mostly when looking at the fight between Waymar and the Other in the first prologue.

It's like the sword charged up then released shattering Waymar's sword.

Then again, there are the bioluminescence mushrooms (fireflies, and very, deep sea fish that glow) and we all know that mushrooms can be "maaaagic" and can glow in the dark too! So that is another angle I'm looking from. (Not to mention that some mushrooms grow from trees and incorporate themselves with tree roots and all that)

Anyways, those are a couple of rabbit holes of which I have not followed too deeply. Yet.

And here's some lines from the prologue that led me to blue lightning.

Quote

 Ser Waymar met it with steel. When the blades met, there was no ring of metal on metal; only a high, thin sound at the edge of hearing, like an animal screaming in pain. Royce checked a second blow, and a third, then fell back a step. Another flurry of blows, and he fell back again. [...]

Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. “For Robert!” he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other’s parry was almost lazy. When the blades touched, the steel shattered. [...]

[Will] found what was left of the sword a few feet away, the end splintered and twisted like a tree struck by lightning. 

[Brad Stark]

How does a blind man see hellhounds fighting 

[LmL]

3 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

I believe it was @LmL that made the case the gargoyles on Dragonstone (which Tyrion is linked to) are meant to serve as a protector to these walls. If the idea originated elsewhere feel free to correct me.

I pointed out that the classic purpose of gargoyles is to frighten away evil spirits, which is why they are usually found on cathedrals and old churches. I noticed George making reference to this when Tyrion squats like a gargoyle on top of a crenelation at KL during the Battle of the Blackwater, and thinks about himself as the city's protector.  Gargoyles are frequently rainspouts as well, so they have the water associations as well (hence Tyrion making all the drains and cisterns run smoothly in Casterly Rock, because he's a gargoyle, chuckle chuckle). They are thought to come awake at night and fly around, and you can see that idea clearly in ACOK at the burning of the Seven on Dragonstone when the gargoyles appear as if through a veil of tears, stirring as if to come awake with the stone dragons. 

 

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But if the Direwolves are the hellhounds, and the hellhounds are fighting--are the hellhounds fighting each other or someone else? Bran's not expansive (someone needs to convince that kid to finish his thoughts). But if they are fighting each other--the Stark in Winterfell taking down the Night's King (Brandon Stark) would fit.

That's how I'm inclined to read it. The Hellhounds are fighting each other and I can certainly see it as a metaphor for Stark of Winterfell taking down his brother the Nights KIng.

But with that its time to move on to Heresy 195 and time itself.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

How does a blind man see hellhounds fighting 

With Star-Eyes. Which brings to mind Quaith surrounded by stars while speaking to Dany in her dreams while using (imo) a glass candle. Maybe the stone eyes of Symeon's were obsidian, which is not a new idea, but I think the glass candles/obsidian is used like a third eye: a fiery version of greensight. Since Symeon lived in the time of the Age of Heroes which, supposedly, occured after the First Men began worshipping the old gods and buddied-up with the Singers then he and all these eastern immigrants should have had a good mash-up of gods and magics. Obsidian, weirwoods, Ice and fire, greensight, etc.

I like Cowboy Dan's take on it - that it could be he saw the Hellhounds fight from afar. Then again, it could be the Hell Hounds were undead "hounds" from a Frozen Hell which Symeon saw from the top of the Wall. Literal or metaphorical hounds. 

[aDanceWithFlagons]

6 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Thanks! It's always nice to hear positive feedback from such a seasoned poster and a fellow Texan at that! 

Cheers!  A seasoned poster but stale.