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Heresy 194 Underworld


Black Crow

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Azor Ahai comes from the red priest Melisandre and ultimately Asshai.

 

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

expecting one particular hero from one particular aspect of the conflict - and one moreover which comes from as far away from Westeros as you can get - to be a saviour figure seems a touch unwary

Well, it's a curious thing then that Melisandre sincerely believed (as her POV chapters shows) that Stannis... who inarguably came from Westeros... was AAR.

Let's revisit:

• Azor Ahai was the original.  He supposedly labored in a temple of unspecified religion in a time of great cold and darkness to forge a great sword.  He also fought a monster with that sword.  If he lived during the Long Night, which is uncertain, it seems very likely he was from Essos, since there were no temples in Westeros at that time (the old gods not requiring temples and no such pre-Andal temples ever being mentioned in canon).

• Azor Ahai Reborn is evidently not supposed to come from Essos, or Melisandre -- who is obsessed with AAR -- wouldn't have believed Stannis was even qualified.  He is also never, in canon, said to forge a sword, only to draw a sword from fire (hence Melisandre manufacturing that situation for Stannis).    Precisely what he will do beyond that is not clear, though Melisandre certainly approves of whatever it is.

So I'm not sure it's true AAR must necessarily come from as far away as Westeros as we can get.  I'm also not sure he will play a savior's role.

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8 minutes ago, JNR said:

So I'm not sure it's true AAR must necessarily come from as far away as Westeros as we can get.  I'm also not sure he will play a savior's role.


I agree, and it seems most characters "in-world" do as well; Benerro (and arguably, Quaithe) don't believe that AAR must be an Essosi figure, as they've attached themselves to Dany, who may not presently reside in Westeros, but she is "of Westeros" in values and goals. And, as you cited, Melisandre also came west looking for AAR.

Finally, we have a green dreamer who believed that TPTWP - which may or may not be the same thing as AAR - would be born of a Seven Kingdoms dynasty.

While there's plenty of room for interpretation with regards to what AAR is meant to embody in the story - savior, destroyer, or something else - but it certainly seems as though they're going to be a character we know, whose deeds will ultimately play out in Westeros.

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15 minutes ago, JNR said:

So I'm not sure it's true AAR must necessarily come from as far away as Westeros as we can get.  I'm also not sure he will play a savior's role.

I was referring to the original AA, and while Our Mel fastens on to Stannis, there's no evidence that she associates him with Westeros and the trouble up north. This doesn't start to factor until Davos brings up the hitherto ignored letter from the Wall. Conversely, when Master Benero learns of Danaerys the Dragonlord and her pets, and proclaims her to be Azor Ahai [R] there's no question of speeding her on her way to the Ice but instead proclaiming her mission to be the extirpation of the Old Blood hiding behind the Black Walls in Volantis.

What actually appears to have happened, when we read her own thoughts, is that Mel was in the temple's bad books and like Thoros was shuffled off to do some missionary work amongst the heathen, but finding Stannis sitting on a smoking rock in the middle of the great salt sea decided that this was her chance to show Benero and the rest what she was really capable of. She is the one to rediscover Azor Ahai. but seems curiously vague as to what she's going to do with him until the previously unknown horror in the north - which she evidently didn't read of in those ancient books of Asshai - is almost accidentally drawn to her attention.

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33 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

What actually appears to have happened, when we read her own thoughts, is that Mel was in the temple's bad books and like Thoros was shuffled off to do some missionary work amongst the heathen, but finding Stannis sitting on a smoking rock in the middle of the great salt sea decided that this was her chance to show Benero and the rest what she was really capable of.

This seems like an awfully large leap; I'm not sure that there's anything in particular in Mel's chapter that actually delves into her relationship with the priesthood, save that she was sold to them at a young age, and this particular passage:
 

Quote

Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames.

I suppose if someone was so inclined, they could read Melisandre's thoughts here as being defensive, or that she's over-compensating...or it could simply be true. Is Melisandre a bad seer, or a good seer who may have made a mistake of interpretation, as regards Stannis? She has a slew of visions at the Wall that are not just accurate, but even useful--she sees rangers killed by the Weeper, she sees that Hardhome will be a disaster, she sees that Jon will be betrayed by his brothers. In theory, if paired with a less skeptical LC, she could be an asset.

There's also this SSM from GRRM:
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

Why did Melisandre seek out Stannis? Did she see him in her flames and decided to seek him out on her own, or is she on a mission on behalf of the red priests? It doesn't seem at any point as if the latter is the case, when you compare to Moqorro who has been sent out by the priesthood.

"You're right. Melisandre has gone to Stannis entirely on her own, and has her own agenda."

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9 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

I would like to point out that storm/sea may be a false dichotomy. Durran Godsgrief was the first Storm King and he only became that way by marrying Elenei, said to be the daughter of the sea god and the goddess of the wind. The sea and the wind 'dancing' (fighting/mating) becomes a storm. So if Durran married the daughter of the wind/waves he could call himself a god-king, a king of storms. But for some reason the storm is at war with the sea which is the opposite of how that should be: hurricanes and large storms require the sea, they get their power from it. To fight the sea with a storm is to fight darkness with a shadow, it seems a ludicrous and ultimately pointless action. They should be working in unity but one of them (my bet is on the sea god) is behaving as one of these "inverted solar deities" trying to cling to power when their time is done and raging against the new order.

It could be tapping into the ultimate point of the story: if Ice and Fire create a third element but one of the two originators aren't happy with that union then that could cause serious problems with the balance of things.

Not necessarily; the two parties whether Storm and Sea or Ice and Fire, may well be naturally opposed and so in conflict, but at the same time the land is one, they are ultimately bound together. Where the problem may arise is in Mel and the other red priests striving for total victory

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2 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

"You're right. Melisandre has gone to Stannis entirely on her own, and has her own agenda."

That's the point, she's acting outside the official agenda and I'm sure there's a line or passage where she thinks that she'll be proven right and will "show" Benero.

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6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Azor Ahai comes from the red priest Melisandre and ultimately Asshai. The dichotomy of Ice and Fire as set out by the Reeds and Westerosi mythology is something different, and likewise the Storm God and Lady of the Waves. Mel has Darkness and Light. The first two although opposed are one and arguably the same is true of the Seven incorporating all the different faces of god in one - not unlike the grove of weirwood trees north of Castle Black with its different faces. Darkness and Light, arguably are also one and the same since after all the brightest light casts the darkest shadow, and there has always been a suspicion in these here parts that the reason why the name of the Great Other may never be spoken is because it is R'hllor. The land, as the Reeds put it, is one and expecting one particular hero from one particular aspect of the conflict - and one moreover which comes from as far away from Westeros as you can get - to be a saviour figure seems a touch unwary - for lack of a better word.

 

Sure, when you put it that way, I agree with you. That's the whole point behind RLJ, imo, as opposed to some claim on the throne - Jon is part Westerosi greenseer lineage, part foreign dragon lineage. He's Azor Ahai reborn, in an icy, Westerosi sheath. Not just fire, but a synthesis of fire with other things. On either side, we have Bran as pure Westerosi greenseer, and Dany as pure dragon (although, as I have said, she does have that Blackwood and Dayne blood as well). 

My theories about the ancient dragonlords coming to Westeros are primarily relevant to this kind of discussion because they show some sort of ancient connection between dragon-people and Westeros, and I would guess something about that interaction will be important for the end of the story, and to how the dragons, fire magic, and flaming sword fit into the end of this Westerosi story.

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm minded once again of the old heretic joke that it won't be Dany and her Dragons who save Westeros from the Others but the Others who save Westeros from the Dragons. It may not turn out quite in those terms, but the Dragons are a threat, not salvation.

I can sympathize with this view - I think dragons and Others are essentially equal threats, a long summer just as bad as a long winter. The threat is really imbalance. 

 

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Or to put it another way; we have Ice and Fire; we have Storm and Sea; we have Light and Dark, to name but three. Which is the true pairing?

The true pairing is order and chaos, balance and imbalance. All other pairings flow from this. It's all about Yin and Yang, I believe. Every opposite pair has an inherent equilibrium of tension and resistance, whether it be storm and sea, fire and ice, light and dark, or anything else. The pair of opposites really makes up a whole, just as Jojen says the land is one.  So, the real enemy is when one side of any balanced pair grows too powerful, upsetting the balance and causing chaos. That's why the Others and dragons are both threats, because they both threaten to overrun the world with one force, extinguishing the other. 

As for the R'hllorists, they are deceived because they believe in the idea of one force triumphing over the other. They have not studied Daoist philosophy!

 

1 hour ago, JNR said:

So I'm not sure it's true AAR must necessarily come from as far away as Westeros as we can get.

Agree.

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44 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

That's the point, she's acting outside the official agenda and I'm sure there's a line or passage where she thinks that she'll be proven right and will "show" Benero.


As to the latter, there isn't. She never thinks of Benerro at all, even by title (eg, "the high priest"). The line I quoted is the only one that might be read as Melisandre seeking vindication.

As to the former, yes, it confirms that she's operating independently of the R'hllorist structure, but there are some important things to remember: We do not know how long it has been thus, why it's the case that she's operating separately, or whether this is even atypical for the priesthood. We know that the temple of Volantis has its own formal hierarchy, but we don't know whether that is a reflection only on Volantis, or the religion as a whole--for example, does the red temple in Braavos answer to Benerro? Do they interact at all?

Leaving that question aside, I raise the question of how long Melisandre has been operating on her own agenda, in part, because it may be the case that she is far older than she appears. For all we know, she went off to Asshai to study their lore and become a shadowbinder quite a long time ago, and has not even had occasion to interact with the current leadership of the red temple.

I would speculate that there are things she learned in Asshai, independent of R'hllorist doctrine, that prompted her to come west. That SSM I linked makes it explicit that the Targaryens are the only Valyrian nobles that survived the Doom with their dragons intact, yet we have little evidence that the Red Temple has had any interest in Westeros, or the Targaryens and their dragons--Melisandre, on the other hand, seems to have come to the conclusion that "king's blood" and stone dragons are important things. Are these R'hllorist ideas, or Asshai'i ideas?

Edit: To be clear, I'm not even disagreeing that Melisandre feeling like she has something to prove to the red priesthood, or being on the outs is an unreasonable interpretation, I'm just saying that we don't actually know why she's operating independently. The original point I was tying to make is that Melisandre's actions suggest that AAR should not be strictly defined as a foreign hero, and certainly not a hero that will re-emerge as far from Westeros as possible.

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I was referring to the original AA, and while Our Mel fastens on to Stannis, there's no evidence that she associates him with Westeros and the trouble up north. This doesn't start to factor until Davos brings up the hitherto ignored letter from the Wall

Well, kinda. First, this is from ACOK:

“In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.

We know Mel thinks AA is here to fight against cold and darkness.  That sounds like the Long Night, and she associates it with cold as a force to be fought against.

Now from ASOS, but before Davos gives Stannis the letter. This is while Davos is in prison, and Mel comes and visits to express her flawed philosphy of light triumphing over and vanquishing darkness:

"On one side is R’hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light.”

So, her big bad Satan is a dude named the Great Other who is associated with ice and darkness. I think the readers are supposed to intuitively understand she is talking about the Others here, but to your point, it is not explicit.

Then we get this, when Davos is brought out of jail and made hand, but still before the letter form the NW:

“It is the great battle His Grace is speaking of,” said a woman’s voice, rich with the accents of the east. Melisandre stood at the door in her red silks and shimmering satins, holding a covered silver dish in her hands. “These little wars are no more than a scuffle of children before what is to come. The one whose name may not be spoken is marshaling his power, Davos Seaworth, a power fell and evil and strong beyond measure. Soon comes the cold, and the night that never ends.” She placed the silver dish on the Painted Table. “Unless true men find the courage to fight it. Men whose hearts are fire.”

Definitely talking about the Long Night, and AA fighting it. The Great Other, the soul of ice, is marshalling forces for a new Long Night. This isn't really cryptic, is it? I mean, they aren't planning on going north yet, but they speak of uniting the 7 kingdoms in order to prepare them to fight the cold forces of the Great Other during a new Long Night. Seems pretty straightforward. The scene continues:

Stannis stared at the silver dish. “She has shown it to me, Lord Davos. In the flames.”

“ You saw it, sire?” It was not like Stannis Baratheon to lie about such a thing.

“With mine own eyes. After the battle, when I was lost to despair, the Lady Melisandre bid me gaze into the hearthfire. The chimney was drawing strongly, and bits of ash were rising from the fire. I stared at them, feeling half a fool, but she bid me look deeper, and … the ashes were white, rising in the updraft, yet all at once it seemed as if they were falling. Snow, I thought. Then the sparks in the air seemed to circle, to become a ring of torches, and I was looking through the fire down on some high hill in a forest. The cinders had become men in black behind the torches, and there were shapes moving through the snow. For all the heat of the fire, I felt a cold so terrible I shivered, and when I did the sight was gone, the fire but a fire once again. But what I saw was real, I’d stake my kingdom on it.”

“And have,” said Melisandre.

The conviction in the king’s voice frightened Davos to the core. “A hill in a forest … shapes in the snow … I don’t …”

“It means that the battle is begun,” said Melisandre. “The sand is running through the glass more quickly now, and man’s hour on earth is almost done. We must act boldly, or all hope is lost. Westeros must unite beneath her one true king, the prince that was promised, Lord of Dragonstone and chosen of R’hllor.” 

The only thing that changed when they got the letter is they decided the best way to unite the kingdom was in fact to save the NW, which are instrumental in fighting the Others during the LN. This passage indicates Mel and Stannis already realize this - they need men whose hearts are fire to fight in the snow, where the real battle has already begun. They recognize the real battle will be fought in the snow, and they see these men with fire as being on their side. 

 

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AA and TPWWP could be the same person.   For the readers, we don't know for certain.   If Melisandre thinks they are the same, and TPWWP is a Targaryen, and she may even know the prophecy he would be born of the line of Aegon the Unlikely, then of course she'd be looking in Westeros.  If she expects a male, that rules out Dany, and probably everyone else outside Westeros. 

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10 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

AA and TPWWP could be the same person.   For the readers, we don't know for certain.   If Melisandre thinks they are the same, and TPWWP is a Targaryen, and she may even know the prophecy he would be born of the line of Aegon the Unlikely, then of course she'd be looking in Westeros.  If she expects a male, that rules out Dany, and probably everyone else outside Westeros. 

Maester Aemon is certainly another one who sees Azor Ahai and the Prince as being one and the same, and ultimately when he decides that Danaerys is the one we have that long piece about being misled by the translation and how the expected boy could just as easily be a girl.

As to Westeros its worth remembering that while the prophecy supposedly goes back 5,000 years or more, the Targaryens only moved to Westeros 300 years ago.

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On 1/21/2017 at 4:24 PM, Black Crow said:

The starry blue eyes are certainly suspicious and I'm far more inclined to interpret them as his being changed rather than his stuffing actual gemstones into the sockets, although we do have possible examples in Crowsfood and of course Euron, where one eye has been replaced.

I agree. It stuck out to me in the prologue of A Dance With Dragons that Thistle tears her own eyes out, as in, the eyes are gone. Then we're told that the "pale blue light" was flickering "in the pits where her eyes had been." Sounds weird. Her eyes didn't just change colors, like we see in other places, instead her eyes are gone. In their place the blue light was flickering.

Not sure what the implications are, but its creepy as hell. 

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This might be off-topic but another thing that stuck out to me in the ADWD prologue is the fact that Varamyr picks up a weirwood branch before he attempts to skinchange Thistle and then goes into the tree itself. 

"When he reached the weirwood tree, he found a fallen branch just long enough to use as a crutch. Leaning heavily upon it, he staggered toward the nearest hut."

Maybe its not important, but after hearing about the Drowned God priest who used a weirwood staff, the High Septon's weirwood staff, etc; makes me wonder about the inclusion of a weirwood branch in this scene which gives us more info than anything else about skinchanger/greenseer magic. Once he collapses in the snow he dreams of how he became a skinchanger, then tries to skinchange Thistle, then is inside the tree and then is borne by the cold winds. I wonder if the fallen branch is an important ingredient.

Symeon Star-Eyes (think Thistle with her empty eye sockets flickering blue) also has a staff he uses. Maybe it was a weirwood staff? Anybody have any thoughts on the implications? 

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1 hour ago, LordBlakeney said:

This might be off-topic but another thing that stuck out to me in the ADWD prologue is the fact that Varamyr picks up a weirwood branch before he attempts to skinchange Thistle and then goes into the tree itself. 

"When he reached the weirwood tree, he found a fallen branch just long enough to use as a crutch. Leaning heavily upon it, he staggered toward the nearest hut."

Maybe its not important, but after hearing about the Drowned God priest who used a weirwood staff, the High Septon's weirwood staff, etc; makes me wonder about the inclusion of a weirwood branch in this scene which gives us more info than anything else about skinchanger/greenseer magic. Once he collapses in the snow he dreams of how he became a skinchanger, then tries to skinchange Thistle, then is inside the tree and then is borne by the cold winds. I wonder if the fallen branch is an important ingredient.

Symeon Star-Eyes (think Thistle with her empty eye sockets flickering blue) also has a staff he uses. Maybe it was a weirwood staff? Anybody have any thoughts on the implications? 

Great catch on the weirwood crutch, I think that could be symbolically important. High Septon also has a weirwood staff, topped by a crystal, and crystal tends to be an ice / Others symbol. The Others swords are a sharp of crystal, the wWall is crystalline, etc. Also,the weirwood in that Varymyr scene is a pale shadow, armored in ice,suggesting the tree as an Other. 

I agree the blue lights in the pits of Thistle's eyes is freakin creepy.

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1 hour ago, LmL said:

I agree the blue lights in the pits of Thistle's eyes is freakin creepy.

Like a predator fish in the deep sea that uses bioluminescence.  In total darkness, all you would see are the eyes... blue as the eyes of death.

What are we to make of weirwood bows?  

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8 hours ago, LordBlakeney said:

Not sure what the implications are, but its creepy as hell. 

A possible explanation might be Thoros' resurrections by blowing fire into the dying by way of a last communion. Supposedly its this fire which animates them. Perhaps there's a cold blue "flame" inside the wights and its this which lights up the eyes.

Other than that I have no idea

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The power wielded by these prophets of the Drowned God over the ironborn should not be underestimated. Only they could summon kingsmoots, and woe to the man, be he lord or king, who dared defy them. The greatest of the priests was the towering prophet Galon Whitestaff, so-called for the tall carved staff he carried everywhere to smite the ungodly. (In some tales his staff was made of weirwood, in others from one of Nagga's bones.)

(The World of Ice and Fire)

...or weirwood is in fact Nagga's bones, as @LmL and many others have suggested

I wonder if it's important that Ned thought Bran could become a High Septon, from GOT:

Quote

No," Ned said. He saw no use in lying to her. "Yet someday he may be the lord of a great holdfast and sit on the king's council. He might raise castles like Brandon the Builder, or sail a ship across the Sunset Sea, or enter your mother's Faith and become the High Septon." But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms.

High Septon = (in terms of symbolism) a skinchanger? He has to abandon his old 'skin' - name, surname, past... And there's High Sparrow, a good nickname for somebody skinchanging a bird...

 

EDIT: *&*&#$#* You know that you're spending too much time with symbolism and mythology when you confuse threads when you want to post something...

That's supposed to be here 

 

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16 hours ago, LordBlakeney said:

Or the spears with weirwood shafts some wildlings carry - something about the trees providing weapons? 

As I recall, young weirwoods grow straight and tall: quire aside from magical powers real and imagined that would produce a long straight grain, ideal for spears and arrows. It would probably make a good bow, or rather bows since a number of staves would be split from the the log.

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