Black Crow Posted January 12, 2017 Author Share Posted January 12, 2017 39 minutes ago, Matthew. said: This is what I'm suggesting, though--during Joramun's age they were more visible, more a part of the affairs of the Haunted Forest because that was the last section of land left to them. The reason they're not more visible now is because of 8,000 years of loss, combined with their low fertility. They can't afford to be visible. The era of the NK may also represent important insight into why it became necessary for the CotF to become less visible. Why is the Stark of that era "Brandon the Breaker?" Was he Brandon the Pact Breaker? Did he later betray Joramun and steal the last trump card that the CotF held over humanity (the Horn), and take total control of the Watch? I know you're not always receptive to the idea that the Horn is in the Crypts, but I think it's worth considering. Mance believes the tales of the Horn enough that he was willing to undertake his detour into the Frostfangs, even though it's not exactly a hospitable staging ground to prepare for their attack on the Wall. At present, Mance is also displaying a keen interest in paying a visit to the Crypts. Having failed to find the Horn in the area where Joramun was supposedly buried, is he instead going to search the grave of the man that may have defeated Joramun? I'm not unreceptive to the idea of a connection between the Horn of Winter and the Winterfell crypts. It makes far more sense than an obsession with Lyanna's tomb. I just remain aware that Sam has gone to Horn Hill with a horn in his pocket. The two aren't incompatible of course. There might well be secrets revealed down there including a realisation that the horn is missing and that Sam needs to be found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 12, 2017 Author Share Posted January 12, 2017 24 minutes ago, Brad Stark said: The proximity of the Haunted Forest to the Wall and similar mention of giants breaking the arm is interesting. Suppose we had a war between the Children and The First Men. The Wall was raised by The Children with the same Earthquake/Giant/Hammer of waters that broke the arm of Dorne and flooded the neck, to protect the Children on the North side. The Others were created as a weapon, and all this use of magic brought about the Long Night. Men won the war, or possibly the Last Hero really just sought out the children to surrender. After the war, men staffed the wall, either to protect against Others, Children or wildlings living on the North side. It has long been suggested on Heresy that it was the Long Night which brought the wars to an end and that the Last Hero was sent out to cry Pax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 57 minutes ago, Brad Stark said: Why would Mance still want the horn? The same thing he may have wanted it for before--not specifically to sound it, but because the threat of sounding it gives him leverage to negotiate. Although the wildlings are now south of the Wall, it's not as though the situation is entirely ideal for them. And, of course, there's always the possibility that Mance has some ulterior motives beyond just working on behalf of the wildlings. 21 minutes ago, Black Crow said: I'm not unreceptive to the idea of a connection between the Horn of Winter and the Winterfell crypts. It makes far more sense than an obsession with Lyanna's tomb. I just remain aware that Sam has gone to Horn Hill with a horn in his pocket. It's not an either/or choice--it's not as though by asking "what if the Horn is in the Winterfell crypts," we cannot also discuss other scenarios, including the broken horn. Broadly speaking, I raised this line of speculation to suggest that the Horn may have been created by the CotF's magic, and may have served the specific purpose of ensuring that men would keep the Pact-- that the reason it's the "Horn of Winter" is because its function is to unleash another unnatural 'winter' on the realms of men if they break the Pact. ____ I'm also being mindful here of past discussions in this thread about the Black Gate being a portal between the realms of men and the "realms of magic." If Joramun was a leader beyond the Wall in an era when magic was still alive, then is it a mistake to interpret him as a "leader of the wildlings," a mistake to assume he was just the raider-in-chief? Is it a mistake to assume he even had to be human? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Sam has an auroch’s horn that is banded with bronze. Obviously not canon, and even if it was it doesn't imply this is The Horn of Winter, but that sounds a lot like the illustration on the Winds of Winter cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Black Crow said: There is a theory [not mine] which comes up from time to time that the Wall soaks up the Winter that would otherwise roll south over Westeros' green and pleasant land, ie; it is made not of ice but Ice and if you then accept the proposition that Ice is bad, then there's an awful lot of Bad concentrated in the Wall It's a cold-sinc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Matthew. said: I know you're not always receptive to the idea that the Horn is in the Crypts, but I think it's worth considering. Mance believes the tales of the Horn enough that he was willing to undertake his detour into the Frostfangs, even though it's not exactly a hospitable staging ground to prepare for their attack on the Wall. At present, Mance is also displaying a keen interest in paying a visit to the Crypts. Having failed to find the Horn in the area where Joramun was supposedly buried, is he instead going to search the grave of the man that may have defeated Joramun? It's always been my belief that Mance was looking for the entrance (exit) to Gorne's Way, which is obviously a popular "myth" among the free folk - and most certainly has a basis in reality. If Gorne's Way does indeed run from BR's back door, under the wall, straight to Winterfell, is it subject to the same need for a Black Gate/Password situation? Is it affected by the same magic that's in the wall, if it goes beneath the wall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 12, 2017 Author Share Posted January 12, 2017 4 minutes ago, WeaselPie said: It's always been my belief that Mance was looking for the entrance (exit) to Gorne's Way, which is obviously a popular "myth" among the free folk - and most certainly has a basis in reality. If Gorne's Way does indeed run from BR's back door, under the wall, straight to Winterfell, is it subject to the same need for a Black Gate/Password situation? Is it affected by the same magic that's in the wall, if it goes beneath the wall? I think a Black Gate style portal entirely possible and certainly a whole lot more feasible than trekking through hundreds of miles of caves. Perhaps Gendel's trouble wasn't that he didn't know the route through the tunnels, but that Gorne was the one who knew the password to the portal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Just now, Black Crow said: Perhaps Gendel's trouble wasn't that he didn't know the route through the tunnels, but that Gorne was the one who knew the password to the portal. Great point here BC. Since we know from the WB that Gendel and Gorne were competing for possession of BR's Cave - the one with the underground sea and the back door - if Winterfell were the endpoint on the other side, it would be a valuable portal indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, WeaselPie said: Great point here BC. Since we know from the WB that Gendel and Gorne were competing for possession of BR's Cave - the one with the underground sea and the back door - if Winterfell were the endpoint on the other side, it would be a valuable portal indeed. Oh, did I miss this connection? That sounds interesting! 6 minutes ago, Black Crow said: I think a Black Gate style portal entirely possible and certainly a whole lot more feasible than trekking through hundreds of miles of caves. Perhaps Gendel's trouble wasn't that he didn't know the route through the tunnels, but that Gorne was the one who knew the password to the portal. Damn I missed this idea too - you guys think the black gate is a magical portal, not just a weirwood mouth gate? Like teleportation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, LmL said: Oh, did I miss this connection? That sounds interesting! couple of WB quotes Quote It brings to mind a transcription of a wildling song in Maester Herryk's History of the Kings-Beyond-the-Wall, regarding the brothers Gendel and Gorne. They were called upon to mediate a dispute between a clan of children and a family of giants over the possession of a cavern. Gendel and Gorne, it is said, ultimately resolved the matter through trickery, making both sides disavow any desire for the cavern, after the brothers discovered it was a part of a greater chain of caverns that eventually passed beneath the Wall. But considering that the wildlings have no letters, their traditions must be looked at with a jaundiced eye. and Quote The brothers Gendel and Gorne were joint kings three thousand years ago. Leading their host down beneath the earth into a labyrinth of twisting subterranean caverns, they passed beneath the Wall unseen to attack the North. Gorne slew the Stark king in battle, then was killed in turn by the king's heir, and Gendel and his remaining wildlings fled back to their caverns, never to been seen again. The Horned Lord would follow them, a thousand years after (or perhaps two). His name is lost to history, but he was said to have used sorcery to pass the Wall. After him, centuries later, came Bael the Bard, whose songs are still sung beyond the Wall...but there are questions as to whether he truly existed or not. So I further surmise that Bael used this passage secretly. Seems the Stark Crypts have had all sorts of visitors through the portal/passages. No wonder they have swords on their laps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 1 minute ago, WeaselPie said: couple of WB quotes and So I further surmise that Bael used this passage secretly. Seems the Stark Crypts have had all sorts of visitors through the portal/passages. No wonder they have swords on their laps Ah but what makes you think this connects to Bloodraven's cave? I mean the possibility is obvious, I was just wondering if you had found a clue indicating that this is so. I definitel am curious to see if the caves extend to WF - that's not very realistic, but makes sense for fantasy purposes. The idea of Bael using them is pretty cool, if that's the case I might expect Mance to find them, since he is paralleling Bael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 11 minutes ago, LmL said: Ah but what makes you think this connects to Bloodraven's cave? I mean the possibility is obvious, I was just wondering if you had found a clue indicating that this is so. I definitel am curious to see if the caves extend to WF - that's not very realistic, but makes sense for fantasy purposes. The idea of Bael using them is pretty cool, if that's the case I might expect Mance to find them, since he is paralleling Bael. I think it's more than heavily inferred.that BR's cave is part of a greater network via the vast underground sea. The underworld of the sea is apropos to the topic here of course, from Patchface's mysterious journey, to the Womb of the World, but especially in context here from the water Bran hears beneath them as they climb down to the black gate, to Jon and Ygritte's caven to the "bottomless" pool at the Winterfell Heart Tree... Geographically, the system - from BR's cave down through Winterfell (at the least) - makes the most sense for the story. ETA if the children coveted the cave thousands of years ago, there would be no reason they would not covet it - and possibly have possession of it - in the current story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 12 minutes ago, WeaselPie said: I think it's more than heavily inferred.that BR's cave is part of a greater network via the vast underground sea. The underworld of the sea is apropos to the topic here of course, from Patchface's mysterious journey, to the Womb of the World, but especially in context here from the water Bran hears beneath them as they climb down to the black gate, to Jon and Ygritte's caven to the "bottomless" pool at the Winterfell Heart Tree... Geographically, the system - from BR's cave down through Winterfell (at the least) - makes the most sense for the story. ETA if the children coveted the cave thousands of years ago, there would be no reason they would not covet it - and possibly have possession of it - in the current story. Right on, that makes sense. I agree the underground water is an important element. Love your new avatar by the way, very nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 13 minutes ago, LmL said: Right on, that makes sense. I agree the underground water is an important element. Love your new avatar by the way, very nice. ty man I think the watery underworld is just as important a topic as the less watery! I often kick around that the wells/spiral stairs leading down are an exact mirror to towers whose stairs spiral UP. As above, so below, and all that. Needless to say I think this is a fantastic topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 48 minutes ago, WeaselPie said: ty man I think the watery underworld is just as important a topic as the less watery! I often kick around that the wells/spiral stairs leading down are an exact mirror to towers whose stairs spiral UP. As above, so below, and all that. Yes, the stars are a sea as well. 48 minutes ago, WeaselPie said: Needless to say I think this is a fantastic topic. Are you hip to @ravenous reader's discovery of the green sea / greenseer metaphor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 12, 2017 Author Share Posted January 12, 2017 1 hour ago, LmL said: Damn I missed this idea too - you guys think the black gate is a magical portal, not just a weirwood mouth gate? Like teleportation? Well its clearly magical and one of the curiosities of the story thus far is that we never find out what's on the other side of the Black Gate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Just now, Black Crow said: Well its clearly magical and one of the curiosities of the story thus far is that we never find out what's on the other side of the Black Gate True enough. I hadn't thought of teleportation, if only because it seems a little too high fantasy for Martin, but who knows. I was just wondering about that yesterday actually, the fact that we don't know where it comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 12, 2017 Author Share Posted January 12, 2017 1 hour ago, LmL said: I definitely am curious to see if the caves extend to WF - that's not very realistic, but makes sense for fantasy purposes. The idea of Bael using them is pretty cool, if that's the case I might expect Mance to find them, since he is paralleling Bael. I think that's the point of the lower levels, but notwithstanding talk of underground rivers and so on I think that magic rather miles is necessary to move between Winterfell and the Wall. I'm not sure though in answer to your last I'd call it teleportation, its just a matter of moving through gates from human realms to faerie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 44 minutes ago, LmL said: Yes, the stars are a sea as well. Are you hip to @ravenous reader's discovery of the green sea / greenseer metaphor? I'm not, have a link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 9 minutes ago, WeaselPie said: I'm not, have a link? I'm on the way out the door; @ravenous reader will supply the link momentarily I predict Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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