Maxxine Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 So this is just a question I've been wondering about lately. Really a curiosity/ world building question. Are orphans in Nights Watch obligated to stay for life? We know that men who come willingly to the Watch may leave at any point before saying their vows, but criminals who are sent to the Watch are obligated to stay regardless. But what about the boys who are raised at the Wall? Mance was raised as an orphan & Mormont notes that if Craster had allowed it the Watch would've taken his boys. So was Mance always obligated to stay at the Wall as part of the Watch even before taking his vows? Could he have left to rejoin the wildlings had he wanted? My initial reaction when I first had the thought was there would be no obligation to stay before taking the vows because as an orphan child presumably you committed no crime. But the more I thought about it I thought the Watch would probably at the very least expect a person to take the vows even if it's not an obligation bc of cost expended in raising the child. Also in the case of Mance they wouldn't want to release him back to wildlings to start raiding & be in opposition to the Watch after he learned the in & outs of the Watch. So what do other people think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 There is no obligation to remain in the NW until you take your vows. Even for criminals are at liberty to return to their homes and face their lord's or the king's justice at any time before they say the words. The same goes for orphans, although I doubt the NW would release young men to the wildlings, and since they have no family or any place to go in the 7K many decide to join. But I'll bet there are a few who find work on trading vessels out of Eastwatch or decide to make their way south. They serve the watch in exchange for room and board while they are growing up, so there shouldn't be any obligation to stay once they come of age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Interesting question. I guess, like John Sub's mentioned, there is no obligation for orphans or volunteers until one takes his vows? Maybe at a certain age, 16?, the boys are given a rumspringa to help them decide? Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxxine Posted January 11, 2017 Author Share Posted January 11, 2017 27 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: There is no obligation to remain in the NW until you take your vows. Even for criminals are at liberty to return to their homes and face their lord's or the king's justice at any time before they say the words. The same goes for orphans, although I doubt the NW would release young men to the wildlings, and since they have no family or any place to go in the 7K many decide to join. But I'll bet there are a few who find work on trading vessels out of Eastwatch or decide to make their way south. They serve the watch in exchange for room and board while they are growing up, so there shouldn't be any obligation to stay once they come of age. Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that only those who came voluntarily were free to leave. I don't think it's explicitly states but Iirc Jon has the thought before taking his vows that he was free to leave if he wanted bc he came voluntarily implying at least to me that others didn't have that option. I think the criminals make the choice between the watch and their Lord's justice before they come. Once they make it that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, Maxxine said: Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that only those who came voluntarily were free to leave. I don't think it's explicitly states but Iirc Jon has the thought before taking his vows that he was free to leave if he wanted bc he came voluntarily implying at least to me that others didn't have that option. I think the criminals make the choice between the watch and their Lord's justice before they come. Once they make it that's it. As a practical matter, no they are not free to leave because all that will happen is they are brought back to the lord who had them arrested in the first place to be maimed, killed or whatever. But until they say their vows, my understanding is they are under no obligation to serve in the NW and therefore will not be executed as a deserter if they decide not to join. That being said, even while they are in training they are still convicted criminals, so again, they are not free to leave as Jon is. Could they try to escape? Sure, but the NW is still answerable to the crown and would set out to catch them and deliver the king's justice if so warranted, just like any other house in the realm. Aegor Rivers was sentenced to the Wall after the third BF rebellion but fled to the Disputed Lands instead, and AFIK nobody ever considered him a deserter from the NW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxxine Posted January 11, 2017 Author Share Posted January 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: As a practical matter, no they are not free to leave because all that will happen is they are brought back to the lord who had them arrested in the first place to be maimed, killed or whatever. But until they say their vows, my understanding is they are under no obligation to serve in the NW and therefore will not be executed as a deserter if they decide not to join. That being said, even while they are in training they are still convicted criminals, so again, they are not free to leave as Jon is. Could they try to escape? Sure, but the NW is still answerable to the crown and would set out to catch them and deliver the king's justice if so warranted, just like any other house in the realm. Aegor Rivers was sentenced to the Wall after the third BF rebellion but fled to the Disputed Lands instead, and AFIK nobody ever considered him a deserter from the NW. I get what you're saying. I was more talking about the obligation to stay regardless which someone like Jon doesn't have but a criminal does. This brings another interesting question though. What's the punishment for a criminal leaving before saying the vows or if someone refused to say the vows. I would think it would be death just like a deserter. And I would think they would also call you a deserter. It would seem to me once you choose the Wall as opposed to the punishment you've made a promise to serve, even if you haven't taken the official vow. I think Aegor is a special case & idk how much info we can take from it. We don't know if he'd be considered a deserter but even if he was, he had such a long list of "crimes" I think deserter would be at the bottom of it and not brought up much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Well, I don't know how to explain it any other way. Technically, there is no obligation to the NW until the vows are said, but in a practical sense there is because the alternative is certain death or dismemberment by whichever lord you answer to. So as far as the NW is concerned, there is no punishment for leaving before the vows -- but you are still subject to the king's justice so the NW has an obligation to keep you under arrest and return you for trial and punishment. So no matter how you look at it, criminals who leave either before or after their vows are killed, while volunteers have the option of returning home to resume their old lives -- until they say the words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Mormont Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 This made me think of a curious situation, Janos Slynt. Janos was not convicted of a crime, he was just forced to go to the wall, what would have happened to him had he refused to take the vow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 On 1/10/2017 at 9:40 PM, Maxxine said: So this is just a question I've been wondering about lately. Really a curiosity/ world building question. Are orphans in Nights Watch obligated to stay for life? Not until the person takes the vow. Once the vow is taken they are obligated. On 1/10/2017 at 9:40 PM, Maxxine said: We know that men who come willingly to the Watch may leave at any point before saying their vows, but criminals who are sent to the Watch are obligated to stay regardless. But what about the boys who are raised at the Wall? Criminals before they take the vows may leave to accept their punishment. On 1/10/2017 at 9:40 PM, Maxxine said: Mance was raised as an orphan & Mormont notes that if Craster had allowed it the Watch would've taken his boys. So was Mance always obligated to stay at the Wall as part of the Watch even before taking his vows? Could he have left to rejoin the wildlings had he wanted? No, I don’t think that Mance was obligated to stay before he took the vows. After Mance took the vows if he left the NW he is a deserter. Caveat. Back in the olden days (1940 -1950’s for example) the military would practically accept any able bodied male. There were no background checks. Social security numbers weren’t used. Birth certificates dates could be tampered with and ages could be lied about. Sixth graded education not a problem. Once a person joined the military if he went AWOL there was a hefty price to pay. On 1/10/2017 at 9:40 PM, Maxxine said: My initial reaction when I first had the thought was there would be no obligation to stay before taking the vows because as an orphan child presumably you committed no crime Mance was raised or if you prefer indoctrinated into the lifestyle of the NW. When he started ranging he got a taste of what life was like outside the confines and order of the NW. On 1/10/2017 at 9:40 PM, Maxxine said: But the more I thought about it I thought the Watch would probably at the very least expect a person to take the vows even if it's not an obligation bc of cost expended in raising the child. The NW might expect it. Consider though that an orphan would have earned his keep by providing his labor to the tasks as assigned. On 1/10/2017 at 9:40 PM, Maxxine said: Also in the case of Mance they wouldn't want to release him back to wildlings to start raiding & be in opposition to the Watch after he learned the in & outs of the Watch. I agree. It’s not explicitly stated when, where or how Mance took his vows. If he took the vows and left the NW he would be considered a deserter. On 1/10/2017 at 9:40 PM, Maxxine said: So what do other people think? A couple of Jon’s and Mormont’s thoughts and ideas. Quote A Game of Thrones - Jon V Once he swore his vow, the Wall would be his home until he was old as Maester Aemon. "I have not sworn yet," he muttered. He was no outlaw, bound to take the black or pay the penalty for his crimes. He had come here freely, and he might leave freely … until he said the words. He need only ride on, and he could leave it all behind. Quote A Game of Thrones - Jon VI "You came to us outlaws," he began, "poachers, rapers, debtors, killers, and thieves. You came to us children. You came to us alone, in chains, with neither friends nor honor. You came to us rich, and you came to us poor. Some of you bear the names of proud houses. Others have only bastards' names, or no names at all. It makes no matter. All that is past now. On the Wall, we are all one house." At evenfall, as the sun sets and we face the gathering night, you shall take your vows. From that moment, you will be a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch. Your crimes will be washed away, your debts forgiven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Chris Mormont said: This made me think of a curious situation, Janos Slynt. Janos was not convicted of a crime, he was just forced to go to the wall, what would have happened to him had he refused to take the vow? Argh, a curious situation indeed. Did Janos take the Black at Eastwatch? Or was he merely bullying his way in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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