If Benjen never took the black would WOT5K turn out differently ?

[estermonty python]

2 hours ago, devilish said:

I don't think that Benjen would have ever raised a finger against his brother. If he did, he would be crushed immediately irrespective on whether he had support from the Rills or not. Ned was loved throughout most of the North. He had support from both the King and the Tullys. A rebellion would have seen the Tullys and the crown join the fray whom in turn would drag the Vale, the Lannister and possibly anyone who was eager to kiss the kings arse (ex Tyrells)

As said the medieval times were wierd with women thought to be too sensitive and weak to rule.As a widow Lady Barbrey was vulnerable both from influence within her castle and from the outside. People would be salivating at that castle and lands of hers. We all know what happened to Lady Donella Hornwood and Lady Shella Whent. 

By marrying a Stark she would have been protected. No one would dare touching a hair to Benjen as that would have to fight against 2/3 of Westeros. That's an act of kindness and great respect especially towards a widowed lady whose growing old. 

Sure but its not necessarily just about Ned or Benjen.  Let's say Benjen and Barbrey marry and have a kid.  let's call him Shmenjen Stark.  Roose Bolton is Shmenjen's uncle.  If Ned and Benjen both die, the Ryswells, Boltons, and potentially the Dustins all have a strong self-interested motivation to put young Shmenjen, a full-blooded Northerner, in Winterfell instead of that half-breed Robb.  One generation in the future, no one remembers Ned or Benjen or Roose or Barbrey, and suddenly you have Schmoose Bolton leading a coup to place his cousin Schemjen II, son of Schmenjen in Winterfell over Robb's kin, and the North is right in the middle of another succession crisis.  

At any rate, I think probably the answer is just that Benjen wanted to join the Night's Watch, and Ned wanted to let his brother do what he wanted, because he is kind, and honorable, and a little bit stupid.

[Wrl6199]

4 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

Sure but its not necessarily just about Ned or Benjen.  Let's say Benjen and Barbrey marry and have a kid.  let's call him Shmenjen Stark.  Roose Bolton is Shmenjen's uncle.  If Ned and Benjen both die, the Ryswells, Boltons, and potentially the Dustins all have a strong self-interested motivation to put young Shmenjen, a full-blooded Northerner, in Winterfell instead of that half-breed Robb.  One generation in the future, no one remembers Ned or Benjen or Roose or Barbrey, and suddenly you have Schmoose Bolton leading a coup to place his cousin Schemjen II, son of Schmenjen in Winterfell over Robb's kin, and the North is right in the middle of another succession crisis.  

At any rate, I think probably the answer is just that Benjen wanted to join the Night's Watch, and Ned wanted to let his brother do what he wanted, because he is kind, and honorable, and a little bit stupid.

man I like the name shmenjen. Also it was Brandon who was supposed to marry Barbary not been.

[estermonty python]

1 hour ago, Wrl6199 said:

man I like the name shmenjen. Also it was Brandon who was supposed to marry Barbary not been.

Right -  @devilish wondered aloud why Ned didn't offer Benjen's hand to Barbrey after the war and I was spitballing why that may not have been a good idea.

[l2 0 5 5]

This is a good question. Benjen as we all know was the stark at winterfell for rr. Pretty sure he would've been in the nw for greyjoy rebellion. If benjen would've stayed away from nw, he would've gained experience in grejoy rebellion. I think benjen would've counseled Robb a little more conservatively than the likes of Theon and others did. He seems thoughtful in the small sample size we have of benjen, and old enough to know the benefits of exercising caution. This still doesn't mean that he would see the treachery of the boltons coming. Tywin chose roose as an ally because of his families history of rebellion against starks, and has obviously heard of roose's calculating nature. Doesn't matter if roose is Robb's lieutenant or 10th in command, tywin knew which basket to put his eggs in and I don't think benjen would've been able to stop that.

[Universal Sword Donor]

10 hours ago, devilish said:

I don't think that Benjen would have ever raised a finger against his brother. If he did, he would be crushed immediately irrespective on whether he had support from the Rills or not. Ned was loved throughout most of the North. He had support from both the King and the Tullys. A rebellion would have seen the Tullys and the crown join the fray whom in turn would drag the Vale, the Lannister and possibly anyone who was eager to kiss the kings arse (ex Tyrells)

As said the medieval times were wierd with women thought to be too sensitive and weak to rule.As a widow Lady Barbrey was vulnerable both from influence within her castle and from the outside. People would be salivating at that castle and lands of hers. We all know what happened to Lady Donella Hornwood and Lady Shella Whent. 

By marrying a Stark she would have been protected. No one would dare touching a hair to Benjen as that would have to fight against 2/3 of Westeros. That's an act of kindness and great respect especially towards a widowed lady whose growing old. 

 

Cat has a response to this literal scenario:

“Precedent,” she said bitterly. “Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe.”
“Jon would never harm a son of mine.”
“No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?”
Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer’s crypt, his teeth bared. Robb’s own face was cold. “That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon.”
“So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa . . . your own sister, trueborn . . .”

 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

The Iron Born or the Boltons would have never taken Winterfell, Robb would have married Roslin Frey .

[Stormking902]

6 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

The Iron Born or the Boltons would have never taken Winterfell, Robb would have married Roslin Frey .

Agreed especially since you can assume Benjen would remind Robb that Ned didnt want to marry Cat either but he did his duty and their love has never been stronger. I wonder why Cat disnt beat this fact into his head as well. 

[devilish]

11 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

Cat has a response to this literal scenario:

“Precedent,” she said bitterly. “Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe.”
“Jon would never harm a son of mine.”
“No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?”
Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer’s crypt, his teeth bared. Robb’s own face was cold. “That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon.”
“So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa . . . your own sister, trueborn . . .”

 

This is different.

a- Cat hated Jon Snow. She could never reconcile the fact that Ned slept with another woman and his son plays and lives like one of her own. If Robb had lived till his 40s then I seriously doubt she would suggest that he'll send Bran and Rickon to the NW

b- Jon Snow and Robb Stark are nearly the same age and those who were present when Jon Snow was born are dead. A legitimised Jon Stark can argue that he was born before Robb and therefore he could push for a claim. If Robb turns to be some pompous Lordling that breaks vows and cut Lord's heads then Jon might even find support to that claim.

Benjen is a Stark. He's clearly younger then Ned which means that he can't push for that claim without making himself look silly. Therefore Ned and all his children will be given precedence over Benjen and his children

 

 

[devilish]

19 hours ago, estermonty python said:

Sure but its not necessarily just about Ned or Benjen.  Let's say Benjen and Barbrey marry and have a kid.  let's call him Shmenjen Stark.  Roose Bolton is Shmenjen's uncle.  If Ned and Benjen both die, the Ryswells, Boltons, and potentially the Dustins all have a strong self-interested motivation to put young Shmenjen, a full-blooded Northerner, in Winterfell instead of that half-breed Robb.  One generation in the future, no one remembers Ned or Benjen or Roose or Barbrey, and suddenly you have Schmoose Bolton leading a coup to place his cousin Schemjen II, son of Schmenjen in Winterfell over Robb's kin, and the North is right in the middle of another succession crisis.  

At any rate, I think probably the answer is just that Benjen wanted to join the Night's Watch, and Ned wanted to let his brother do what he wanted, because he is kind, and honorable, and a little bit stupid.

In this timeline Shameme would probably be the first person Roose would want to kill as he'll have more claim to Winterfell and the North then his family does. That would be a bit of a problem for him because all North loyalists + Ryswells and potentially Dustins would raise to war against him.

But lets say that GOT never happened, Ned and Benjen died of old age etc.Shameme will ride to battle with Ryswells, Boltons and potentially the Dustins at his back. Robb will play defensively with the remaining North at his back. In few months time a 20k army from the Riverlands will arrive lead by Uncle Edmure. Later on another 20k army from the Vale arrive lead by cousin Robin. By that time, brother in law King Joffrey Baratheon first of his name will arrive with a 40k army half of whom, Lannister men lead by his brother Tommen.

I wonder who will win

[devilish]

34 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Agreed especially since you can assume Benjen would remind Robb that Ned didnt want to marry Cat either but he did his duty and their love has never been stronger. I wonder why Cat disnt beat this fact into his head as well. 

Simple, because the Tullys thought that the Freys were inferior. People who can be derided at and humiliated. Cat's problem was more about having her son being portrayed as an oath keeper + losing Walder's forces rather then hurting the Frey's pride

[estermonty python]

3 hours ago, devilish said:

In this timeline Shameme would probably be the first person Roose would want to kill as he'll have more claim to Winterfell and the North then his family does. That would be a bit of a problem for him because all North loyalists + Ryswells and potentially Dustins would raise to war against him.

But lets say that GOT never happened, Ned and Benjen died of old age etc.Shameme will ride to battle with Ryswells, Boltons and potentially the Dustins at his back. Robb will play defensively with the remaining North at his back. In few months time a 20k army from the Riverlands will arrive lead by Uncle Edmure. Later on another 20k army from the Vale arrive lead by cousin Robin. By that time, brother in law King Joffrey Baratheon first of his name will arrive with a 40k army half of whom, Lannister men lead by his brother Tommen.

I wonder who will win

The point of the scenario is that Ned and Benjen would have wanted to avoid even the possibility of war in the first place, not a concern that one side or the other would win.  Ned also wouldn't have had any other kids besides Robb at the point in time we are discussing, so the Lannisters have nothing to do with it.  

[devilish]

14 hours ago, estermonty python said:

The point of the scenario is that Ned and Benjen would have wanted to avoid even the possibility of war in the first place, not a concern that one side or the other would win.  Ned also wouldn't have had any other kids besides Robb at the point in time we are discussing, so the Lannisters have nothing to do with it.  

And I am saying that this scenario is very improbable

a- Rickard married his son to a Tully to strengthen the main line not to weaken it. Robb had blood ties with House Tully and House Arryn. Those are an extra 50-60k army as top up to the majority of the North who will take the main's line branch

b- If Roose was planning to rebel then he'll do it for his benefit not for the benefit of yet another Stark. 

c- Brothers exist and they are married off. Brynden was meant to marry off to a Redwyne. Garlan was married off to a Fossoway and was given a Lordship. Oberyn could have easily poisoned Dorran, his slutty daughter and his idiotic son but Dorran didn't contemplated to send him to the wall. These brothers stood by their Lord side, some fought in their wars, most better then their brother and father did. They weren't sent to the wall.

 

 

 

 

14 hours ago, estermonty python said: