Ice Spiders. Have we read about one?.

[Macgregor of the North]

Ok so recently I have found myself talking about the Others and Ice Spiders have sprung up a few times. The scary creatures that have saw themselves crawl there way into a few tales of legend. 

(Before we proceed this is a possible interpretation, not an assertion.)

Old Nan tells Bran of them. 

"And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—"

Big Sam Slayer has heard the tales also when he was a boy.

"The horn blew thrice long, three long blasts means Others. The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows, the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood . . ."

Sam also reads of them in the Nights Watch historic records:

"Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too."

And also the Maesters themselves have heard tales of Ice spiders too it seems:

"Yet there are other tales—harder to credit and yet more central to the old histories—about creatures known as the Others. According to these tales, they came from the frozen Land of Always Winter, bringing the cold and darkness with them as they sought to extinguish all light and warmth. The tales go on to say they rode monstrous ice spiders and the horses of the dead, resurrected to serve them, just as they resurrected dead men to fight on their behalf."

This has brought me back to something I brought up a few times earlier last year (in my Dragonsteel thread I think) that nobody really got on board with or thought the same as me, so I have decided to return to it and analyse it again and bring it back to the forum to see if anybody out there can see the angle, or has thought along the same lines before.

First, let's check out this from Jon when he is reading a passage from the Jade Compendium.

ADWD JON III:

"Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

Now automatically I look at this and conjure up the image of an attack with an upward thrust "through the belly of the beast", similar to how you would react if you had found yourself to be in the unfortunate position of underneath a huge spider. 

Next thing is "eyes". I'll admit this is weaker, as eyes can simply mean two eyes, but as we know, spiders can have many eyes and especially in fantasy stories we often see their huge eyes emphasised to make them look particularly freaky. 

Next up, "body". The text says "its body burst into flame". The word "it's" drives home that Azor Ahai classed the monster as an "it", which brings forth the image of a creature of some sort, a monster indeed. And the focus on its body bursting into flame automatically sends my mind into overdrive about the monsters body, which if we go back to our scary friend the spider, you can see where I'm coming from. They can have large bodies.

Spiders bodies, especially in the case of large spiders are quite an attention grabbing feature, and it's the same here. As soon as I read this I automatically thought of the huge body of a big Ice Spider bursting into flame as our hero thrust his blade up at its belly from underneath. 

Next let's check what happened when Big Sam Slayer thrust his Dragonglass blade into the Other. 

ASOS SAM SLAYER I:

"When he opened his eyes the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked. 

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."

When Sam stabs the Other its pale blue blood begins to "hiss and steam". To me that sounds like the "boiling" of the monsters blood Jon read about. Steaming and boiling are something that can be viewed in a similar light I believe. 

"Smoke" and Steam pour from the monsters mouth. There is smoking involved too with the Other Sam stabs, as it reaches to grab the blade it's fingers "smoke". 

They both have descriptions of melting. The monsters eyes melt and dribble down its cheeks, while the Others whole physical body including its bones melt away. 

Now there is a difference here I'm aware of. 

The monsters body actually bursts into flame, something that clearly does not happen with Sams Other. Obviously this is quite a difference and I'm aware of its impact to what I'm proposing but does anybody else think there's a chance that some version of the Last Hero fought and killed an Ice Spider thousands of years ago?.

What if perhaps it is the different type of blade (as opposed to Sams Dragonglass) in the hands of the hero that caused the bursting into flame? We know the versions of the Hero have him wielding swords of different sorts. Or the make up of the creature is slightly different from the Others body and it caught flame somehow as opposed to the Other melting and dissolving away. 

There is one other instance where a being of the Others bursts in to flame but it is a Wight, not an Other itself or one of its Ice spiders. I'll leave the quote for reference. 

ASOS SAM SLAYER III:

"The fire! Only ember and ashes remained, but still . . . he could not breathe, or think . . . Sam wrenched himself sideways, pulling Paul with him . . . his arms flailed against the dirt floor, groping, reaching, scattering the ashes, until at last they found something hot . . . a chunk of charred wood, smouldering red and orange within the black . . . his fingers closed around it, and he smashed it into Paul's mouth, so hard he felt teeth shatter.

Yet even so the wight's grip did not loosen. Sam's last thoughts were for the mother who had loved him and the father he had failed. The longhall was spinning around him when he saw the wisp of smoke rising from between Paul's broken teeth. Then the dead man's face burst into flame, and the hands were gone."

What do you guys think? Anybody thought like this before?. 

[Lord Vance II]

38 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

"Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

Now automatically I look at this and conjure up the image of an attack with an upward thrust "through the belly of the beast", similar to how you would react if you had found yourself to be in the unfortunate position of underneath a huge spider. 

Next thing is "eyes". I'll admit this is weaker, as eyes can simply mean two eyes, but as we know, spiders can have many eyes and especially in fantasy stories we often see their huge eyes emphasised to make them look particularly freaky. 

An upward thrust through pretty much anythings body is usually the way to go for max damage. And if your picturing the hero pinned under a spider, I don't see how they would have space to maneuver a longsword. Plus I think the difference between a conventional mouth and a spiders mandibles and such would make such a story. 

[Macgregor of the North]

12 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

An upward thrust through pretty much anythings body is usually the way to go for max damage. And if your picturing the hero pinned under a spider, I don't see how they would have space to maneuver a longsword. Plus I think the difference between a conventional mouth and a spiders mandibles and such would make such a story. 

The Spiders are described as monstrous and giant, maybe the sheer size of it left room to thrust a sword up into its belly?. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

I think it makes pretty good sense.  It has long been pointed out that the description of Sam killing the Other is very similar to the story.  It also seems similar to when Drogon burned a slaver.

[Macgregor of the North]

4 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I think it makes pretty good sense.  It has long been pointed out that the description of Sam killing the Other is very similar to the story.  It also seems similar to when Drogon burned a slaver.

Yeah ive been part of discussions that explain the similarity to the burning of the slaver but never saw somebody liken this story to the killing of an Ice spider and believe me ive looked many times to see if there are others who think the same thing as i do.

Maybe i wasnt typing in the right key words in my search or something. I'm not claiming to be the first or anything like that i just havent seen anything on it anywhere.

[aryagonnakill#2]

2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Yeah ive been part of discussions that explain the similarity to the burning of the slaver but never saw somebody liken this story to the killing of an Ice spider and believe me ive looked many times to see if there are others who think the same thing as i do.

Maybe i wasnt typing in the right key words in my search or something. I'm not claiming to be the first or anything like that i just havent seen anything on it anywhere.

I've never seen the ice spider thought before I think it's original.

[Macgregor of the North]

33 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I've never seen the ice spider thought before I think it's original.

I always thought there must be someone out there who has thought along these lines with me? 

Anybody....?

 

[Magnar wants]

Like many references to animals in ASOIAF, "ice spider" is a metaphor, and obviously refers to a wighted Varys.  The Varys we've met in the books is part of a free company of immortal clones called Lightbringer that was founded during the Long Night.  Members of Lightbringer all had Varys's ample girth, and when wighted and turned into steeds, provided the Others' bony asses with more cushioning than dead horses.  Lightbringer will return to vanquish the Others in the final book, which GRRM entitled A Dream of Spring after George Lucas stole copyright to Attack of the Clones.

But seriously though, nice catch!  Maybe giant spiders (the warm, carbon-based kind) used to live in the north, but got wighted to extinction in the Long Night.  This would explain why an ice spider bursts into flame like a human wight instead of melting like an Other.

[Jon Fossoway]

There are some apparently huge spiders lurking between trees in the deep jungles in Sothoryos, so equivalents in the far north... Plausible. And scary. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

17 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

What do you guys think? Anybody thought like this before?. 

I agree. Lightbringer was definitely an obsidian blade  

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I agree. Lightbringer was definitely an obsidian blade  

I see where your going with that, but the thread isn't really about that. It's about the possibility that the Hero of the Long Night, which in this instance the Jade Compendium names Azor Ahai, fought an Ice Spider and that was his monster. 

[Macgregor of the North]

10 hours ago, Magnar wants said:

Like many references to animals in ASOIAF, "ice spider" is a metaphor, and obviously refers to a wighted Varys.  The Varys we've met in the books is part of a free company of immortal clones called Lightbringer that was founded during the Long Night.  Members of Lightbringer all had Varys's ample girth, and when wighted and turned into steeds, provided the Others' bony asses with more cushioning than dead horses.  Lightbringer will return to vanquish the Others in the final book, which GRRM entitled A Dream of Spring after George Lucas stole copyright to Attack of the Clones.

But seriously though, nice catch!  Maybe giant spiders (the warm, carbon-based kind) used to live in the north, but got wighted to extinction in the Long Night.  This would explain why an ice spider bursts into flame like a human wight instead of melting like an Other.

Lol that was enlightening. 

To the second part, good spin on it, makes the most sense actually. 

The Wights are described at times as being Icy. Chetts boil, Thistle is covered in Hoarfrost and has Ice on her hands IIRC, so if large Spiders of the sort you mention (and @King Merrett I Frey does too) we're wighted, as opposed to some sort of separate creation of Ice, that would explain the bursting into flames a bit better. 

And would also fit with why people think to call them "Ice" Spiders. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I like it. I really like it. 

[Macgregor of the North]

48 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I like it. I really like it. 

Cheers Weirwood Eyes 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

[Dorian Martell's son]

7 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I see where your going with that, but the thread isn't really about that. It's about the possibility that the Hero of the Long Night, which in this instance the Jade Compendium names Azor Ahai, fought an Ice Spider and that was his monster. 

And the only weapon that can kill an other that we have seen is an obsidian dagger, so Lightbringer is made of dragon glass.  We are in complete agreement 

[Macgregor of the North]

22 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

And the only weapon that can kill an other that we have seen is an obsidian dagger, so Lightbringer is made of dragon glass.  We are in complete agreement 

I'm not talking about an Other. I'm talking about a monster which I believe is possibly an Ice Spider. Let's get that clear. 

And where did you see in anything i stated that I'm in complete agreement with you, or that we are in complete agreement that the sword the hero used in the Long Night was made of Dragonglass?.

I must have missed that. And I'm not sure I like your tone here so wind it down a notch to keep this chat nice and civil ok.

[Macgregor of the North]

I've had another thought on this topic. 

If the Spider was a dead Wighted massive creature, then that explains away the body bursting into flame easy enough but it doesn't really help with the blood boiling and the eyes melting as that wouldn't happen to a dead Wighted creature I don't think. 

So I have sort of returned to my idea of the Spider possibly being more of an Icy creature, if it is indeed even a Spider. 

Since you can actually set blocks of Ice on fire, I suppose it's body could still burst into flame, it's a magic story we're reading isn't it.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I'm not talking about an Other. I'm talking about a monster which I believe is possibly an Ice Spider. Let's get that clear. 

And where did you see in anything i stated that I'm in complete agreement with you, or that we are in complete agreement that the sword the hero used in the Long Night was made of Dragonglass?.

I must have missed that. And I'm not sure I like your tone here so wind it down a notch to keep this chat nice and civil ok.

How am I not being civil? 
and this is why we are in complete agreement 
 

 

On 1/12/2017 at 4:32 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

ADWD JON III:

"Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

Now automatically I look at this and conjure up the image of an attack with an upward thrust "through the belly of the beast", similar to how you would react if you had found yourself to be in the unfortunate position of underneath a huge spider. 

Next thing is "eyes". I'll admit this is weaker, as eyes can simply mean two eyes, but as we know, spiders can have many eyes and especially in fantasy stories we often see their huge eyes emphasised to make them look particularly freaky. 

Next up, "body". The text says "its body burst into flame". The word "it's" drives home that Azor Ahai classed the monster as an "it", which brings forth the image of a creature of some sort, a monster indeed. And the focus on its body bursting into flame automatically sends my mind into overdrive about the monsters body, which if we go back to our scary friend the spider, you can see where I'm coming from. They can have large bodies.

Spiders bodies, especially in the case of large spiders are quite an attention grabbing feature, and it's the same here. As soon as I read this I automatically thought of the huge body of a big Ice Spider bursting into flame as our hero thrust his blade up at its belly from underneath. 

Next let's check what happened when Big Sam Slayer thrust his Dragonglass blade into the Other. 

ASOS SAM SLAYER I:

"When he opened his eyes the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked. 

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."

When Sam stabs the Other its pale blue blood begins to "hiss and steam". To me that sounds like the "boiling" of the monsters blood Jon read about. Steaming and boiling are something that can be viewed in a similar light I believe. 

"Smoke" and Steam pour from the monsters mouth. There is smoking involved too with the Other Sam stabs, as it reaches to grab the blade it's fingers "smoke". 

They both have descriptions of melting. The monsters eyes melt and dribble down its cheeks, while the Others whole physical body including its bones melt away. 

Now there is a difference here I'm aware of. 

The monsters body actually bursts into flame, something that clearly does not happen with Sams Other. Obviously this is quite a difference and I'm aware of its impact to what I'm proposing but does anybody else think there's a chance that some version of the Last Hero fought and killed an Ice Spider thousands of years ago?.

What if perhaps it is the different type of blade (as opposed to Sams Dragonglass) in the hands of the hero that caused the bursting into flame? We know the versions of the Hero have him wielding swords of different sorts. Or the make up of the creature is slightly different from the Others body and it caught flame somehow as opposed to the Other melting and dissolving away. 

There is one other instance where a being of the Others bursts in to flame but it is a Wight, not an Other itself or one of its Ice spiders. I'll leave the quote for reference. 

ASOS SAM SLAYER III:

"The fire! Only ember and ashes remained, but still . . . he could not breathe, or think . . . Sam wrenched himself sideways, pulling Paul with him . . . his arms flailed against the dirt floor, groping, reaching, scattering the ashes, until at last they found something hot . . . a chunk of charred wood, smouldering red and orange within the black . . . his fingers closed around it, and he smashed it into Paul's mouth, so hard he felt teeth shatter.

Yet even so the wight's grip did not loosen. Sam's last thoughts were for the mother who had loved him and the father he had failed. The longhall was spinning around him when he saw the wisp of smoke rising from between Paul's broken teeth. Then the dead man's face burst into flame, and the hands were gone."

What do you guys think? Anybody thought like this before?. 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

3 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

How am I not being civil? 
and this is why we are in complete agreement 
 

 

 

Looks like we aren't in complete agreement about anything actually and your tone has a hint of attitude to it so to keep it civil here wind it down a bit.