Ice Spiders. Have we read about one?.

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Looks like we aren't in complete agreement about anything actually and your tone has a hint of attitude to it so to keep it civil here wind it down a bit.

What do I need to turn down? I provided you with your quote about boiling and melting flesh from the AA legend and what we see of sam in the books. There is no need to escalate this by demanding I keep things civil when everything I have said has been nothing but. 

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

What do I need to turn down? I provided you with your quote about boiling and melting flesh from the AA legend and what we see of sam in the books. There is no need to escalate this by demanding I keep things civil when everything I have said has been nothing but. 

You have attempted to establish that Lightbringer is made of Dragonglass on a thread that isn't about that, then proceeded to assert that I believe this, in agreement with yourself, which is false, all with a certain smugness I'll add. 

If you wanna contribute to the thread, discuss what I propose in the OP, if you don't wanna do that, go make a thread that discusses how you think Lightbringer is made of Dragonglass.

[Dorian Martell's son]

20 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You have attempted to establish that Lightbringer is made of Dragonglass on a thread that isn't about that, then proceeded to assert that I believe this, in agreement with yourself, which is false, all with a certain smugness I'll add. 

If you wanna contribute to the thread, discuss what I propose in the OP, if you don't wanna do that, go make a thread that discusses how you think Lightbringer is made of Dragonglass.

And via your thread about ice spiders, you inadvertently compiled quotes and text that would show that Lightbringer and Sam's dragonglass dagger had similar effects on those they stabbed. Hence the side track on an open and public forum where all members can post replies  

[Yaya]

back to the spiders of ice

in agreement on things MotN.  the ice spiders are referenced, something is the ice spider.
(reminding me of the late great David Bowie's "Glass Spider")

anyhow

i often wondered about what the heck would confuse people to think that huge spiders were hanging about in the north - being that arachnids kind of shut down in the cold.  but this isn't our world.

so what about the ice spider actually being a wighted or warg controlled sea creature? 
how about a huge kracken?  how about a huge crab or lobster? 
this would allow us to tie in the greyjoys/iron islands and the seastone chair to further complicate things into the mix.
this reminds me of nagga's bones too ... what the heck was nagga?  could nagga have been the monster?

 

 

editing:

found the references i was referencing:
"The World of Ice and Fire - The Iron Islands: Driftwood Crowns
The deeds attributed to the Grey King by the priests and singers of the Iron Islands are many and marvelous. It was the Grey King who brought fire to the earth by taunting the Storm God until he lashed down with a thunderbolt, setting a tree ablaze. The Grey King also taught men to weave nets and sails and carved the first longship from the hard pale wood of Ygg, a demon tree who fed on human flesh.
The Grey King's greatest feat, however, was the slaying of Nagga, largest of the sea dragons, a beast so colossal that she was said to feed on leviathans and giant krakens and drown whole islands in her wroth. The Grey King built a mighty longhall about her bones, using her ribs as beams and rafters. From there he ruled the Iron Islands for a thousand years, until his very skin had turned as grey as his hair and beard. Only then did he cast aside his driftwood crown and walk into the sea, descending to the Drowned God's watery halls to take his rightful place at his right hand."

" The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: The Shivering Sea
They tell of pale blue mists that move across the waters, mists so cold that any ship they pass over is frozen instantly; of drowned spirits who rise at night to drag the living down into the grey-green depths; of mermaids pale of flesh with black-scaled tails, far more malign than their sisters of the south.
Of all the queer and fabulous denizens of the Shivering Sea, however, the greatest are the ice dragons. These colossal beasts, many times larger than the dragons of Valyria, are said to be made of living ice, with eyes of pale blue crystal and vast translucent wings through which the moon and stars can be glimpsed as they wheel across the sky. Whereas common dragons (if any dragon can truly be said to be common) breathe flame, ice dragons supposedly breathe cold, a chill so terrible that it can freeze a man solid in half a heartbeat.
Sailors from half a hundred nations have glimpsed these great beasts over the centuries, so mayhaps there is some truth behind the tales. Archmaester Margate has suggested that many legends of the north—freezing mists, ice ships, Cannibal Bay, and the like—can be explained as distorted reports of ice-dragon activity. Though an amusing notion, and not without a certain elegance, this remains the purest conjecture. As ice dragons supposedly melt when slain, no actual proof of their existence has ever been found."

 

 

[Rusty Winchester]

I could definitely see that monster being an ice spider, although I can't say I see anything in the text that directly supports that. It certainly conjures and image for me of Frodo/Sam fighting whatsherface the giant spider in wherever that was. I guess it's been awhile since I read or watched LOTR.  But I could easily see GRRM as a fan of Tolkien intentionally mirroring that imagery. Without more info it's hard to say for sure, and even if that was intentional it could easily just be an Easter egg/homage rather than anything more.  Still I'd love to see ice spiders pop up in the text, they sound terrifying.  It would also be cool if they were in fact an order of life that mirrors the Others, rather then the men and beasts we are familiar with. Something that might respond the same way that the Other did when Sam stabbed it.

[Rusty Winchester]

11 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I'm not talking about an Other. I'm talking about a monster which I believe is possibly an Ice Spider. Let's get that clear. 

And where did you see in anything i stated that I'm in complete agreement with you, or that we are in complete agreement that the sword the hero used in the Long Night was made of Dragonglass?.

I must have missed that. And I'm not sure I like your tone here so wind it down a notch to keep this chat nice and civil ok.

I gotta say though, I think you're slashing at shadows here. And not Stannisesque monster shadows. Just the regular kind.

[Macgregor of the North]

On 13/01/2017 at 5:31 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

And via your thread about ice spiders, you inadvertently compiled quotes and text that would show that Lightbringer and Sam's dragonglass dagger had similar effects on those they stabbed. Hence the side track on an open and public forum where all members can post replies  

So are you saying you believe that the Dragonsteel mentioned in the old Nights Watch records is simply Dragonglass?. 

[Macgregor of the North]

On 14/01/2017 at 2:21 AM, Rusty Winchester said:

I gotta say though, I think you're slashing at shadows here. And not Stannisesque monster shadows. Just the regular kind.

Elaborate, what exactly do you think I am slashing at shadows with?. 

[Macgregor of the North]

On 14/01/2017 at 1:18 AM, Yaya said:

back to the spiders of ice

in agreement on things MotN.  the ice spiders are referenced, something is the ice spider.
(reminding me of the late great David Bowie's "Glass Spider")

anyhow

i often wondered about what the heck would confuse people to think that huge spiders were hanging about in the north - being that arachnids kind of shut down in the cold.  but this isn't our world.

so what about the ice spider actually being a wighted or warg controlled sea creature? 
how about a huge kracken?  how about a huge crab or lobster? 
this would allow us to tie in the greyjoys/iron islands and the seastone chair to further complicate things into the mix.
this reminds me of nagga's bones too ... what the heck was nagga?  could nagga have been the monster?

 

 

editing:

found the references i was referencing:
"The World of Ice and Fire - The Iron Islands: Driftwood Crowns
The deeds attributed to the Grey King by the priests and singers of the Iron Islands are many and marvelous. It was the Grey King who brought fire to the earth by taunting the Storm God until he lashed down with a thunderbolt, setting a tree ablaze. The Grey King also taught men to weave nets and sails and carved the first longship from the hard pale wood of Ygg, a demon tree who fed on human flesh.
The Grey King's greatest feat, however, was the slaying of Nagga, largest of the sea dragons, a beast so colossal that she was said to feed on leviathans and giant krakens and drown whole islands in her wroth. The Grey King built a mighty longhall about her bones, using her ribs as beams and rafters. From there he ruled the Iron Islands for a thousand years, until his very skin had turned as grey as his hair and beard. Only then did he cast aside his driftwood crown and walk into the sea, descending to the Drowned God's watery halls to take his rightful place at his right hand."

" The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: The Shivering Sea
They tell of pale blue mists that move across the waters, mists so cold that any ship they pass over is frozen instantly; of drowned spirits who rise at night to drag the living down into the grey-green depths; of mermaids pale of flesh with black-scaled tails, far more malign than their sisters of the south.
Of all the queer and fabulous denizens of the Shivering Sea, however, the greatest are the ice dragons. These colossal beasts, many times larger than the dragons of Valyria, are said to be made of living ice, with eyes of pale blue crystal and vast translucent wings through which the moon and stars can be glimpsed as they wheel across the sky. Whereas common dragons (if any dragon can truly be said to be common) breathe flame, ice dragons supposedly breathe cold, a chill so terrible that it can freeze a man solid in half a heartbeat.
Sailors from half a hundred nations have glimpsed these great beasts over the centuries, so mayhaps there is some truth behind the tales. Archmaester Margate has suggested that many legends of the north—freezing mists, ice ships, Cannibal Bay, and the like—can be explained as distorted reports of ice-dragon activity. Though an amusing notion, and not without a certain elegance, this remains the purest conjecture. As ice dragons supposedly melt when slain, no actual proof of their existence has ever been found."

 

 

Can't rule out Sea Dragons or Ice Dragons Yaya your right. If they exist in the world then they could fit the bill of the monster certainly. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

So are you saying you believe that the Dragonsteel mentioned in the old Nights Watch records is simply Dragonglass?. 

Possibly. Something lost in translation perhaps. The boiling and melting seems to be a commonality. for all we know valyrian steel has the same effect. Meanings of words and phrases change or are lost over time. Since anything sam reads was written after the Andlas brought the common tongue and it's written language to westeros, something written in runic old tongue thousands of years previous then translated into another language could very well lose something in the translation 

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Possibly. Something lost in translation perhaps. The boiling and melting seems to be a commonality. for all we know valyrian steel has the same effect. Meanings of words and phrases change or are lost over time. Since anything sam reads was written after the Andlas brought the common tongue and it's written language to westeros, something written in runic old tongue thousands of years previous then translated into another language could very well lose something in the translation 

Thing is though, the Nights Watch have records showing that the singers used to give them blades of Obsidian/Dragonglass every year, so If they are accurate with these records and know the difference it stands to reason we are safe to assume that when they talk about Dragonsteel they are on about something different yeah?. 

This mentions the Age of heroes, so the Nights Watch have placed a clear divide between what these weapons are. Dragonglass, And Dragonsteel. 

I personally think Dragonsteel is simply a very early prototype of what people today call Valyrian steel. Steel with the most basic, but most important ingredient when it comes to killing Others, the forging in Dragonflame. There was steel before Valyria and there was Dragons before them too. They simply mastered it better than anybody with the spells and such later on. 

Heres the quote:

AFFC SAM I:

"I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes."

[Fordy mcfordface]

Perhaps Lightbringer was valyian steel, hence the monster bursting to flame at the end. It's a slight difference in death to the way Sam killed an Other with obsidian blade.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, Fordy mcfordface said:

Perhaps Lightbringer was valyian steel, hence the monster bursting to flame at the end. It's a slight difference in death to the way Sam killed an Other with obsidian blade.

Yeah it's the only difference really between Sams Other and the Heros monster in regards to the death. I touch on it in the OP that perhaps it's the difference in weapon that makes this happen like you say. 

When we think of Valyrian steel I think this is simply the name civilisation got used to because the Valyrians were the ones who became most famous for taming Dragons and becoming Dragonlords in later times, and also they were the ones who perfected the arts of sword making with the use of their spells etc. 

 But even though they became the most skilled and most famous of the Dragonlords and Sword crafters I still believe that there were Dragons, and Dragonlords before them and therefore weapons crafted with the use of Dragonflame forging (which is all I think will be important when it comes to killing Others) was around before them too. 

If indeed there was a Heros sword, I think of it is a rough, early prototype of VS, but it need not be Valyrian in any way, just similar in its forging. 

[Fordy mcfordface]

Yea I agree, maybe I used used the wrong word.

Rather then Valyrian steel, I should of said Dragonsteel

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, Fordy mcfordface said:

Yea I agree, maybe I used used the wrong word.

Rather then Valyrian steel, I should of said Dragonsteel

Welcome to the forums by the way. 

Hey if you wanna talk directly with someone give the quote function a bash, it's handy for direct conversations mate.

[Dorian Martell's son]

12 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Thing is though, the Nights Watch have records showing that the singers used to give them blades of Obsidian/Dragonglass every year, so If they are accurate with these records and know the difference it stands to reason we are safe to assume that when they talk about Dragonsteel they are on about something different yeah?. 

This mentions the Age of heroes, so the Nights Watch have placed a clear divide between what these weapons are. Dragonglass, And Dragonsteel. 

I personally think Dragonsteel is simply a very early prototype of what people today call Valyrian steel. Steel with the most basic, but most important ingredient when it comes to killing Others, the forging in Dragonflame. There was steel before Valyria and there was Dragons before them too. They simply mastered it better than anybody with the spells and such later on. 

Heres the quote:

AFFC SAM I:

"I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes."

I know that part. I also think that if lightbringer is not a myth (I think it is) and it was used during the long night to fight the others than it could not be steel, as steel would not make it to westeros for a few thousands of years and it could not be valyrian steel as that came after regular steel . It would be Bronze (what most of the first men had) or Iron ( what the Ironborn had that made them so scary) or it was Obsidian and the beasts actually reacted and died the way you quoted. For it to be Valyrian Steel, the timeline would have to be off by four thousand years.   
So for that reason, I think if it was real and not just a myth propagated over 8000 years and thousands of leagues from the story of the last hero, it would have to be obsidian.  

[Voice]

On January 12, 2017 at 4:32 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

What if perhaps it is the different type of blade (as opposed to Sams Dragonglass) in the hands of the hero that caused the bursting into flame? We know the versions of the Hero have him wielding swords of different sorts. Or the make up of the creature is slightly different from the Others body and it caught flame somehow as opposed to the Other melting and dissolving away. 

There is one other instance where a being of the Others bursts in to flame but it is a Wight, not an Other itself or one of its Ice spiders. I'll leave the quote for reference. 

 

Given we have tales of Others using Ice Spiders alongside their leadership of hosts of the slain, I tend to view these as two separate entities. 

I have proposed that Ice Spiders might be all that is left of a wight after its flesh is gone (think glowing bone marrow, connected to a set of eyes LOL), or that wights themselves are where Ice Spider eggs incubate. 

I'd like to see a bunch burst from the body of a wight some moonlit night. 

 

And, I must add a quote you missed, as it is one of my favorites:

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.  

[Voice]

And while all wights might be grouped with starry-eyed Others...

Not all Others are classified as wights. (and only "Others" is given proper noun treatment)

Hierarchy of the Others

 

[Macgregor of the North]

10 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I know that part. I also think that if lightbringer is not a myth (I think it is) and it was used during the long night to fight the others than it could not be steel, as steel would not make it to westeros for a few thousands of years and it could not be valyrian steel as that came after regular steel . It would be Bronze (what most of the first men had) or Iron ( what the Ironborn had that made them so scary) or it was Obsidian and the beasts actually reacted and died the way you quoted. For it to be Valyrian Steel, the timeline would have to be off by four thousand years.   
So for that reason, I think if it was real and not just a myth propagated over 8000 years and thousands of leagues from the story of the last hero, it would have to be obsidian.  

I'm gonna go ahead and assume you actually believe that the Long Night really was 8000 years ago and you are taking that as gospel. I don't. I'm in the camp that believes the Long Night and things like the Andal invasion and the introduction of advanced weapons, the rise of Valyria etc etc are much closer together than the histories would have us believe. 

Ive long thought the timeline is seriously suspect, the main books and the WOIAF back this up and many on the forums share the same view but if your set in your beliefs then what can I do. 

And your not listening to me. Once Dragons were absolutely everywhere. If a blade was ever forged in Dragonflame and somehow found its way to be called Dragonsteel then it need not even have to be Valyrian, I have explained this plenty of times on this thread, please listen this time. 

This is what I firmly believe. 

Dragons and Dragonlords/Dragontamers were around before Valyria and Valyrians, and there's every chance that a basic blade forged in Dragonflame was created and it need not even be a Valyrian that done so. 

The fact that Valyrians reached the top of the game and became the best Dragontamers ever, and the fact that they perfected steel so much with their Dragonflame forging and spells etc is absolutely indisputable. 

But, the weren't the first to do things in the world. They followed a blueprint Others had laid out. 

I think that there was an early prototype made. And the only important ingredient in regards to killing Others was its Dragonflame forging, no spells, no fancy shit, that came later. 

And lo and behold, now everybody thinks of these magnificent blades as Valyrian steel, which I think will kill the Others of course but not because the Valyrians make it with spells or they are the greatest sword makers ever, but because the blades were originally forged in Dragonflame. 

Valyrian steel is what it is now known as because they owned the technique, they perfected the shit so much it's what everybody calls it. But I believe that blades could have been forged in Dragonflame before the Valyrians done so. 100%.

But back to what I posted last. You can't dispute this. 

The Nights Watch have records of mentions of dealings with the singers and Dragonglass/Obsidian in the Age of heroes. As shown clearly In my quote. 

But they also have records of something called Dragonsteel, something entirely different in every sense from the name to the image it conjures up. 

If the Others could not stand against Obsidian/Dragonglass when the Last Hero wielded it, the records would state that. 

They know what Dragonglass is already evidently but chose to name this blade differently, so it is different. 

[Macgregor of the North]

9 hours ago, Voice said:

And while all wights might be grouped with starry-eyed Others...

Not all Others are classified as wights. (and only "Others" is given proper noun treatment)

Hierarchy of the Others

 

I'd quite like to welcome you to this thread of mine.