Macgregor of the North Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share Posted January 18, 2017 9 hours ago, Voice said: Given we have tales of Others using Ice Spiders alongside their leadership of hosts of the slain, I tend to view these as two separate entities. I have proposed that Ice Spiders might be all that is left of a wight after its flesh is gone (think glowing bone marrow, connected to a set of eyes LOL), or that wights themselves are where Ice Spider eggs incubate. I'd like to see a bunch burst from the body of a wight some moonlit night. And, I must add a quote you missed, as it is one of my favorites: Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared. Yeah I agree they are likely separate entities from Wights. We know a block of Ice can be set on fire so why not an Icy Spider body? This is a magic story. While I'm not so sure we will see Ice Spiders bursting forth from a Wight, it is an awesome image. I know the quote but since it said "foemen" scuttled up the Ice "like" Ice Spiders I didn't think it worked as it wasn't technically an actual description of an Ice Spider like the other quotes. Its a great passage though I agree and may work on a foreshadowing level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share Posted January 18, 2017 @Dorian Martell's son was wondering, are you perhaps the returned Dorian Martell who used to frequent the forum but just disappeared one day?. That would be interesting. Back to the topic. Here's a thread where we discussed Dragonsteel a while back. On page two I touch on the use of Iron in ancient times like the Age of heroes (Steel is just smelted Iron Ore). Infact the whole thread is quite interesting if you get the time to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eiko Dragonhorn Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 So the Others ride themselves into battle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share Posted January 18, 2017 25 minutes ago, Eiko Dragonhorn said: So the Others ride themselves into battle? Come on then, why don't you elaborate on your insightful comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 12 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: I'd quite like to welcome you to this thread of mine. You wrote a counter-theory to my Hierarchy?! THAT'S AWESOME!!! And you even called it "long debated"!? That's even MORE AWESOME!!! I guess it is true. That idea has been around the block a few times, and I am no longer a novice with but a handful of posts. Amazing how the years pass by... (need an old man emoji) As the voice who first spoke of this hierarchy, I will of course sink my teeth into your thread posthaste. If my enthusiams seems odd, it is only because I remember a time when it was lunacy to suggest that the Others had a hierarchy. I was one of the few (maybe the only person) to suggest that the Night's King was still around, beyond the curtain of light, before the 1993 letter surfaced, and long before the show put the Night's King on our televisions. In those days, I was a crackpotter. Too crazy for even @Black Crow's Heresy thread. LOL Now, everyone is quite accepting of such pottery. For the wrong reasons though, of course. The show is not the books, and the books themselves provide ample clues for my hierarchy (and the NK), but I'll save those in your thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 12 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: Yeah I agree they are likely separate entities from Wights. We know a block of Ice can be set on fire so why not an Icy Spider body? This is a magic story. While I'm not so sure we will see Ice Spiders bursting forth from a Wight, it is an awesome image. I know the quote but since it said "foemen" scuttled up the Ice "like" Ice Spiders I didn't think it worked as it wasn't technically an actual description of an Ice Spider like the other quotes. Its a great passage though I agree and may work on a foreshadowing level. Given that it is a dream, and that men are scuttling up the ice like spiders.... Yup. Foreshadowing at a minimum. Spiders scuttle and climb walls. And note that when Jon and Ygritte climbed the Wall, they employed strands of web rope. One does not build a 300ft tall wall of Ice to stop wights and white walkers... but I'll get to that in your Other-thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share Posted January 18, 2017 34 minutes ago, Voice said: You wrote a counter-theory to my Hierarchy?! THAT'S AWESOME!!! And you even called it "long debated"!? That's even MORE AWESOME!!! I guess it is true. That idea has been around the block a few times, and I am no longer a novice with but a handful of posts. Amazing how the years pass by... (need an old man emoji) As the voice who first spoke of this hierarchy, I will of course sink my teeth into your thread posthaste. If my enthusiams seems odd, it is only because I remember a time when it was lunacy to suggest that the Others had a hierarchy. I was one of the few (maybe the only person) to suggest that the Night's King was still around, beyond the curtain of light, before the 1993 letter surfaced, and long before the show put the Night's King on our televisions. In those days, I was a crackpotter. Too crazy for even @Black Crow's Heresy thread. LOL Now, everyone is quite accepting of such pottery. For the wrong reasons though, of course. The show is not the books, and the books themselves provide ample clues for my hierarchy (and the NK), but I'll save those in your thread! I hardly come on the Forum at nights but ill be back on in the a.m to Duke it out (in a nice manner of course) with you on my counter thread. Til' then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 11 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said: I hardly come on the Forum at nights but ill be back on in the a.m to Duke it out (in a nice manner of course) with you on my counter thread. Til' then Looking forward to it. Given how much you are seeing that I too see, and your pragmatic approach to the text, I'm confident you'll come to the dark side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share Posted January 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, Voice said: Looking forward to it. Given how much you are seeing that I too see, and your pragmatic approach to the text, I'm confident you'll come to the dark side. Give it your best shot lol. Rules though, I see you mention the show a few times. Keep it strictly books on the other thread, I watch the mummers adaption when it airs but don't really care for it and I'm all books when it comes to discussing Ice and Fire. In regards to the topic,(Others alleged heirarchy), all we need to equip us sufficiently for the discussion is the text in the books and the old letter contents. See you there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 38 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said: Give it your best shot lol. Rules though, I see you mention the show a few times. Keep it strictly books on the other thread, I watch the mummers adaption when it airs but don't really care for it and I'm all books when it comes to discussing Ice and Fire. You're preaching to the choir on that one. I mention the mummers' farce only to lament its existence. 38 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said: In regards to the topic,(Others alleged heirarchy), all we need to equip us sufficiently for the discussion is the text in the books and the old letter contents. See you there Indeed. We have an accord as to choice of weaponry, good ser. And given that the 1993 letter is admissible, should I assume that SSMs relating to ASOIAF are also admissible? And, should I assume that GRRM's other, similar works are not welcome in our discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eiko Dragonhorn Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 7 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: Come on then, why don't you elaborate on your insightful comment. Uhh.. ok. What point are you trying to make? You seem to be trying to say the "spiders" are either the Others or the wights... Maybe you should elaborate on how that would make any sense. To answer your original question... No I haven't thought this before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 @Macgregor of the North Pretty good idea. I don't remember reading this but I may have forgotten it ;-). A point against it I can think of is that it would have been much better if the actual description of the monster had been a little bit more spider-like. The other problem might be that one could argue that any creature pierced with a literally burning sword would both boil and melt/burn. The funny thing with the Other was that he actually melted in some sort of cold fire. Could still be that the fire magic in the obsidian triggered that but still that would have been a different magic than such a creature being hit by a literally burning sword. And the point of the story in the Jade Compendium is to establish that the Azor Ahai stories all describe Lightbringer as a literally burning sword. Yet if Stannis' glamored sword was made of obsidian it still could do the same trick as Lightbringer when piercing an other. Something is wrong there. As to the descriptions of people dying in fire: George often uses the same words/metaphors/descriptions. A lot of fires in the series include stuff that red, yellow, and orange, and so on. There don't have to be deeper connections there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 19, 2017 Author Share Posted January 19, 2017 8 hours ago, Eiko Dragonhorn said: Uhh.. ok. What point are you trying to make? You seem to be trying to say the "spiders" are either the Others or the wights... Maybe you should elaborate on how that would make any sense. To answer your original question... No I haven't thought this before. The thread shows the point I'm trying to make clearly. That the Hero in the Long Night possibly fought an Ice Spider and that was the monster in the story. The comments have swayed between the thing being made up of a body of Icy substance like the Others themselves or a Wighted dead large spider, well, for the most part excluding Dorian Martells sons silly derail episode. Contribute your thoughts along those lines if you want to contribute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 19, 2017 Author Share Posted January 19, 2017 9 hours ago, Voice said: You're preaching to the choir on that one. I mention the mummers' farce only to lament its existence. Indeed. We have an accord as to choice of weaponry, good ser. And given that the 1993 letter is admissible, should I assume that SSMs relating to ASOIAF are also admissible? And, should I assume that GRRM's other, similar works are not welcome in our discussion? I don't think GRRM's other bodies of work are gonna sway me to believe this (and that is what your going to attempt here really) but hey knock yourself out. SSM's are in. I'm quite fond of SSM's as evidence but the mummers adaption means less than nothing so I'm glad we're clear there. Other than that, mount up and charge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 18 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said: I don't think GRRM's other bodies of work are gonna sway me to believe this (and that is what your going to attempt here really) but hey knock yourself out. SSM's are in. I'm quite fond of SSM's as evidence but the mummers adaption means less than nothing so I'm glad we're clear there. Other than that, mount up and charge! Splendid. But no, I wasn't going to use other bodies to sway you. Only to offer additional anecdotal evidence. They are not necessary, at all. But they are interesting. First charge is available for your reading pleasure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 19, 2017 Author Share Posted January 19, 2017 7 hours ago, Lord Varys said: @Macgregor of the North Pretty good idea. I don't remember reading this but I may have forgotten it ;-). A point against it I can think of is that it would have been much better if the actual description of the monster had been a little bit more spider-like. The other problem might be that one could argue that any creature pierced with a literally burning sword would both boil and melt/burn. The funny thing with the Other was that he actually melted in some sort of cold fire. Could still be that the fire magic in the obsidian triggered that but still that would have been a different magic than such a creature being hit by a literally burning sword. And the point of the story in the Jade Compendium is to establish that the Azor Ahai stories all describe Lightbringer as a literally burning sword. Yet if Stannis' glamored sword was made of obsidian it still could do the same trick as Lightbringer when piercing an other. Something is wrong there. As to the descriptions of people dying in fire: George often uses the same words/metaphors/descriptions. A lot of fires in the series include stuff that red, yellow, and orange, and so on. There don't have to be deeper connections there. Cheers LV. Yeah I also think the description lacks certain evidence to make the connection to a Spider totally convincing, but at the same time had just enough to conjure up the image in my head of exactly that. It's certainly not clear cut. I don't really agree with you that the point of the story is to show that it describes Lightbringer as a literally burning sword. This story technically doesn't even say it was on fire or covered in flame. It says it burned fiery hot in battle, that really just says that it was absolutely burning fiery hot, not that it was actually covered in flames. Ive long had a suspicion that maybe the sword was never actually on fire, but the tales that came down over the years possibly assumed that it was on fire because it burned and melted certain foes, like our monster here. To clarify, the way the sword was made, something in its forging, enveloped some power in the blade that could burn and melt certain foes but I'm not totally convinced that the blade was actually "on fire" thousands of years ago. Think of Dragonsteel and the Last Hero, if the tales are all a jumbled up version of one story, I think that Dragonsteel is simply an old crude version of what people today call Valyrian steel. A blade forged in Dragonflame, but not on fire. I think the "on fire" description maybe came from thousands of years of tales told but it possibly all sprung from what it did to certain foes, (burning, melting), hence people today thinking, well that blade must have actually been on fire. Maybe it wasn't though. ADWD JON III: "I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame." As I said above, the bolded part doesn't really say it was on fire, just that it burned fiery hot, which to me just says that it was scalding. If I were to brandish a plugged in Iron at you, you could say it burned fiery hot but never that it was on fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Micaelys Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 i don't think it is a stretch to believe the monster that AA fought is an ice spider considering his link to the end of the long night, and the 'enemy' being the others who are linked to using ice spiders. if i was to pick a scenario i would lean towards believing they are wights under control of the white walkers, its also mentioned they rode dead horses too right so it makes sense they raise dead animals other than humans for their use. i am not sure it really matters to read too much into it though, and what relevance it is to the SL other than a little easter egg. i am curious how dragonglass/dragonsteel etc is linked to be the weakness of the white walkers and wights, or if the ice spiders or another monster involved are a separate entity with its own control why its weakness would be the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: I don't really agree with you that the point of the story is to show that it describes Lightbringer as a literally burning sword. This story technically doesn't even say it was on fire or covered in flame. It says it burned fiery hot in battle, that really just says that it was absolutely burning fiery hot, not that it was actually covered in flames. Oh, I see Aemon pointing Jon to the Jade Compendium in a direct line with his and Sam's inquiry about Stannis' Lightbringer. Aemon asks Stannis whether he could 'see' it, Sam later describes it and his main reason why he thinks it is fake is that it wasn't emanating any heat. Could be that Aemon was wrong there, but we also hear in the tales about Azor Ahai Salla tells Davos that it was always warm to the touch, just as Nissa Nissa had been warm. I did not mean to say that Lightbringer always literally burned but I think that it could literally burst into flames and was always hot with life in some magical sense. Quote Think of Dragonsteel and the Last Hero, if the tales are all a jumbled up version of one story, I think that Dragonsteel is simply an old crude version of what people today call Valyrian steel. A blade forged in Dragonflame, but not on fire. I'm pretty much in agreement there. If there was a Lightbringer sword in the past it would have been bronze sword hardened in the same magical ritual Valyrian steel needs to get its magical quality. The difference would be that Valyrian steel was better steel, but the magical aspects of it would be pretty much the same. However, I think that Valyrian steel itself isn't yet as magical as the historical Lightbringer. The blood of the resurrected Beric Dondarrion could create burning swords. Why is that, and how did that work? My idea is, as I've laid out elsewhere before, that the fire magic resurrection spell worked on Beric because he has a drop of dragonlord blood. The fire magic in his blood somehow reacted with the fire magic of Thoros' spell. That is why the red priests can't raise everybody from the dead (and we could also add the fact that the spells work now (better) because the dragons are back). Cat has either a Lothston ancestor, and is thus also a distant Targaryen descendant, or Beric was able to pass on the matrix of the working spell to her anyway. The interesting thing in that regard is that Brienne has a Valyrian steel sword right now and she seems to be a Targaryen descendant, too. Why did TWoIaF connect the Tarths with the Targaryens? What's the point of that connection? That is certainly no unimportant detail. I think Thoros will either imbue Brienne with a similar magic as he did Beric, or the dormant fire magic in Brienne's blood will awaken, and she will be able to awaken the fire magic in Oathbreaker to do some pretty impressive stuff with it. Beric's mundane swords burned only for a short time but they still burned to a great effect and much differently than those dipped in wildfire Thoros used in tourneys. One really wonders what would have happened if Beric's magical blood had touched and ignited a Valyran steel sword. That is what I expect Brienne to do, and whatever happens thereafter will be the explanation why she is an important character in the fight against the Others. I don't expect there to be just one Lightbringer. Just as Jon, I expect there to be as many Lightbringers as there are Valyrian steel weapons in Westeros or the world. But it may be that not all people can 'activate' them or use them to the greatest effect. Aegon the Unworthy spread the Targaryen bloodline across the entire continent (he supposedly fucked about 900 different women, and if 80% of those got pregnant then Daenerys and Jon might have a lot of cousins running around in Westeros). Keep in mind that the point of Jaime's weirwood dream was to save Brienne from certain death. She is the important one, not Jaime. Jaime was just Bloodraven's tool to save her. And she was carrying some burning sword in that dream. Why was that? Why did Bloodraven use that symbol in the dream rather than something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 19, 2017 Author Share Posted January 19, 2017 @Lord Varys I like where your heading with all that Brienne stuff. Good stuff man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 On 1/17/2017 at 11:24 PM, Macgregor of the North said: I'm gonna go ahead and assume you actually believe that the Long Night really was 8000 years ago and you are taking that as gospel. I don't. I'm in the camp that believes the Long Night and things like the Andal invasion and the introduction of advanced weapons, the rise of Valyria etc etc are much closer together than the histories would have us believe. Ive long thought the timeline is seriously suspect, the main books and the WOIAF back this up and many on the forums share the same view but if your set in your beliefs then what can I do. And your not listening to me. Once Dragons were absolutely everywhere. If a blade was ever forged in Dragonflame and somehow found its way to be called Dragonsteel then it need not even have to be Valyrian, I have explained this plenty of times on this thread, please listen this time. This is what I firmly believe. Dragons and Dragonlords/Dragontamers were around before Valyria and Valyrians, and there's every chance that a basic blade forged in Dragonflame was created and it need not even be a Valyrian that done so. The fact that Valyrians reached the top of the game and became the best Dragontamers ever, and the fact that they perfected steel so much with their Dragonflame forging and spells etc is absolutely indisputable. But, the weren't the first to do things in the world. They followed a blueprint Others had laid out. I think that there was an early prototype made. And the only important ingredient in regards to killing Others was its Dragonflame forging, no spells, no fancy shit, that came later. And lo and behold, now everybody thinks of these magnificent blades as Valyrian steel, which I think will kill the Others of course but not because the Valyrians make it with spells or they are the greatest sword makers ever, but because the blades were originally forged in Dragonflame. Valyrian steel is what it is now known as because they owned the technique, they perfected the shit so much it's what everybody calls it. But I believe that blades could have been forged in Dragonflame before the Valyrians done so. 100%. But back to what I posted last. You can't dispute this. The Nights Watch have records of mentions of dealings with the singers and Dragonglass/Obsidian in the Age of heroes. As shown clearly In my quote. But they also have records of something called Dragonsteel, something entirely different in every sense from the name to the image it conjures up. If the Others could not stand against Obsidian/Dragonglass when the Last Hero wielded it, the records would state that. They know what Dragonglass is already evidently but chose to name this blade differently, so it is different. I get it and I understand what you are saying, but just like how "Dragonglass" is not necessarily the product of dragons, "Dragonsteel" need not be either. I say this not to discount your idea, just to add another possibility Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.