Was Domeric really Roose's son?

[SummerSphinx]

Edit for summary, :

There are MULTIPLE elements to the idea:

1. Brandon Stark had sex multiple times with Barbrey Ryswell (later Lady Dustin). He comes off as a man who enjoyed sex.

2. Brandon Stark was fostered near the Ryswell family. Barbrey and Bethany (Lady Bolton the second, Domeric's "mom") were sisters. Littlefinger was fostered with Cat and Lysa (he slept with Lysa, but had hots for Cat). Brandon may have impregnated Bethany himself, or Barbrey may have let Bethany adopt her bastard by Brandon without Roose's knowledge. All other sons died in the cradle, so Bethany may really have wanted a child.

3. Brandon and Lyanna "were a pair of centaurs" and loved to ride. Roose is not described this way. Barbrey grew up in a horse family, and even she was VERY impressed with Brandon and Lyanna's riding ability.

4. Domeric is described by his own "dad" in direct comparison to the Stark family. He rode better than Lyanna, according to Roose. Domeric was significantly younger than Lyanna, they could not have ever raced each other. Possible latent Stark bonding trait, even his own "dad" noticed?

5. Barbrey really liked Domeric, really does not like Ramsay. We know she was attracted to Brandon, so she might be subconsciously attracted to his son (or she may have been Domeric's mom).

6. No description of Domeric includes a "stereotypical" Bolton trait. (Flaying, bad blood, leeching, eating raw meat, using people for games, sociopath, pale eyes.) Yes, he was quiet, true, but that is one element, and Ned was also quiet. In fact, Domeric sounds friendly: he liked the company of the Redfort sons, and went seeking out Ramsay so he could have a buddy.

7. This hypothetical is consistent with Roose's slaughter of Robb at the Red Wedding (suspected Domeric wasn't his when Ramsay showed up, revenge on Starks for cuckolding him). 

Lots of responses only address #6, and I know kids are not ALWAYS like their family, even in ASOIAF.

End of Edit.

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Please link if this has been hashed to death, thanks!

ADawD, "Reek":

Speaking of Ramsay, then Domeric:

'Lord Bolton sighed. "His blood is bad. He needs to be leeched. The leeches suck away the bad blood, all the rage and pain. No man can think so full of anger. Ramsay, though ... his tainted blood would poison even leeches, I fear."

"He is your only son."

"For the moment. I had another, once. Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady  Dustin's page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode let like the wind. Horses ... the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first."  ... "In the Vale, Domeric had enjoyed the company of Redfort's sons. He wanted a brother by his side, so he rode up the Weeping Water to seek my bastard out."

I used to think Domeric was closer in age to Lyanna because Roose said he could outride even her.  But the timeline has him born right before Robert's Rebellion  (approximately).  So could he have been conceived at the Tourney at Harrenhall? Or shortly before?

The way he is described  (quiet, playing the high harp, reading history, a great horseback rider) doesn't really sound like Roose or like skin-flaying Boltons. No bad blood. Sounds more like Lyanna, Brandon, or Rhaegar.

It is also odd that Roose compares Domeric to Lyanna in describing him to Theon.  Theon never knew Lyanna. Lyanna wasn't a contemporary of Domeric's.  It would make more sense to compare him to a contemporary or someone Theon knew of (Loras). Or to perhaps compare him to a male Lord like Brandon Stark who was also a "centaur." 

Lady Bolton (Domeric's "mom") was the sister to Lady Barbrey Dustin, and they both have a horseback riding lineage (Ryswell family).  So maybe that explains the love of horses.

But what if Domeric was never Roose's?  What if he was a (bastard) Stark? Roose doesn't seem too bothered by Ramsay poisoning Domeric.  

One possibility: What if Barbrey was pregnant by Brandon?  She hoped Brandon would break his betrothal. Perhaps there was some plan to marry her to Ned, but that was passed over. So Lady Barbrey's married sister Lady Bolton took the child as hers (Roose knows or he was away), and Lady Barbrey was fixed up with Lord Dustin rather quickly  (married before Ned called his banners).  Roose mentions Domeric had brothers who died in the cradle, so maybe Lady Bolton had her own pregnancy close enough in time.

It would explain Lady Dustin's affection for Domeric, her hatred of Ramsay, her lingering hate for Ned (she wanted to raise her own child as a legitimate Stark), how she wanted to be one of the Starks, and so on.

It seems strange she hates Ned so. She was in love with Brandon, not Ned. Ned wasn't fostered near her.  Ned isn't like Brandon.  She didn't seem wild about Lord Dustin. It wasn't Ned's fault the Mad King demanded his head and he called the banners. Her hatred of Ned specifically is odd. Perhaps he said "no" to a marriage with her, knowing she was carrying Brandon's child (and having the hots for Ashara).

Or Brandon, the ladies' man, also seduced Lady Bolton?

None of this probably matters, but Domeric really doesn't sound like a Bolton.

Thoughts?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Ned doesn't sound like a Stark either maybe he wasn't a Stark. My point is that not all the members of a family have to be the same.

 

[Davjos]

I don't find this theory very credible. The search for an heir causes Roose to take in the monster that is Ramsey as his bastard son. If Domeric wasn't his, he would have started finding an heir before his death. Lady Dustin hates Ned for taking her husband on a suicide mission and never returning his bones. 

The fact that Domeric is so good on a horse is because he's half horse. Him being compared to Lyanna clearly serves to strengthen the fact she could be the KotL. Also he was raised in the Vale etc, he didn't grow up with a corpse raping maniac as his only friend. This is hound to have an influence on someones character. 

[Masha]

Its nature vs nurture. Domenic was fostered and raised in good environment and because what apparently all Bolton's had potentials to be. Ramsey was raised by mother that hated him and by pervert Reek, thats why he turned out like that.

We also get indication that the examples we have of Starks - aka just and honorable Ned, was like that because he was raised by Jon Arryn who instilled those values in him. Based on history of Starks plus Lyanna and Brandon's example - so called "wolf blood" was far more indicative of Stark's true nature.

 

 

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

There isn't enough to go on. And I don't know how many background plots need to be worked into the books. It's an interesting what-if but I cannot see this playing into the story. Same way the possibility of Black Walder being the real father of some of Walder Freys kids/grandkids. It might matter to the house but it won't have a large effect on the story.

[Jon Fossoway]

 

1 hour ago, SummerSphinx said:

 

I used to think Domeric was closer in age to Lyanna because Roose said he could outride even her.  But the timeline has him born right before Robert's Rebellion  (approximately).  So could he have been conceived at the Tourney at Harrenhall? Or shortly before?

 

Hmmm, weird. According to the wiki, Domeric was born circa 280 AC, while Lyanna was about 12 years old at the time, then died in 283 AC, so it's weird a toddler could outride teenish Lyanna. Perhaps the numbers are just off? In my mind Domeric was closer in age to Lyanna as well. 

[Lord Vance II]

1 hour ago, SummerSphinx said:

The way he is described  (quiet, playing the high harp, reading history, a great horseback rider) doesn't really sound like Roose or like skin-flaying Boltons.

How does that not sound like a Bolton? Roose is noted for being quiet and being a reader doesn't sound out of his wheelhouse. He apparently encouraged his son to play the harp, or at least didn't discourage it. And it's not like horsemanship is an inherited trait, Lyanna is the only Stark we ever hear about being a good rider. 

36 minutes ago, Masha said:

Domenic was fostered and raised in good environment and because what apparently all Bolton's had potentials to be.

I think it's less that Roose is a bad dad and more that Ramsay is a high-level sociopath. I don't think Domeric would have turned out like Ramsay even if he had stayed at the Dreadfort.  

[purple-eyes]

22 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

 

Hmmm, weird. According to the wiki, Domeric was born circa 280 AC, while Lyanna was about 12 years old at the time, then died in 283 AC, so it's weird a toddler could outride teenish Lyanna. Perhaps the numbers are just off? In my mind Domeric was closer in age to Lyanna as well. 

Good catch. And it is funny that a toddler can outride Lyanna the half horse.  

Domeric should be at the similar age as Lyanna. Actually Domeric shared a lot of similarities with Rhaegar as well. So he might be Lyanna's first lover. This is likely part of the reason Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar so quickly and adamantly. 

[Red Man Racey]

22 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

 

Hmmm, weird. According to the wiki, Domeric was born circa 280 AC, while Lyanna was about 12 years old at the time, then died in 283 AC, so it's weird a toddler could outride teenish Lyanna. Perhaps the numbers are just off? In my mind Domeric was closer in age to Lyanna as well. 

Roose's statement does not mean that they rode against each other, but he saw both of them ride at different times and his assessment is that Domeric was a better rider than Lyanna had been while she was alive.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

38 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Hmmm, weird. According to the wiki, Domeric was born circa 280 AC, while Lyanna was about 12 years old at the time, then died in 283 AC, so it's weird a toddler could outride teenish Lyanna. Perhaps the numbers are just off? In my mind Domeric was closer in age to Lyanna as well. 

You are right, I thought that it was figuratively speaking. If someone is very good at something people tend to compare him or her with the people who have been the best at this. If someone is great at basketball people tend to compare him with the best basketball players in history not just with his contemporaries.

[SummerSphinx]

5 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

 

Hmmm, weird. According to the wiki, Domeric was born circa 280 AC, while Lyanna was about 12 years old at the time, then died in 283 AC, so it's weird a toddler could outride teenish Lyanna. Perhaps the numbers are just off? In my mind Domeric was closer in age to Lyanna as well. 

The Domeric Bolton calculation: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Domeric_Bolton

It says he was born sometime between 279-281 (approximately). 281 is the Year of the False Spring, the same year as the Tournament.  If the Tournament was early in the year, he could have been born 9-10 months later and it would still be 281.

[SummerSphinx]

4 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

How does that not sound like a Bolton? Roose is noted for being quiet and being a reader doesn't sound out of his wheelhouse. He apparently encouraged his son to play the harp, or at least didn't discourage it. And it's not like horsemanship is an inherited trait, Lyanna is the only Stark we ever hear about being a good rider. 

I think it's less that Roose is a bad dad and more that Ramsay is a high-level sociopath. I don't think Domeric would have turned out like Ramsay even if he had stayed at the Dreadfort.  

Boltons seem like sociopaths generally.  Domeric actually enjoyed Redfort's sons and went looking for a bastard  brother because he wanted a brother as a companion.  

I am not insisting Domeric was not Roose's.  But if Cercei's kids are not very Baratheon, Domeric as described doesn't come off as very Bolton (he doesn't leech, doesn't have anger issues, doesn't flay, not noted for eating raw meat, not fear-inducing, doesn't play games with people).

In the real world, people are frequently very different from their parents. Even in ASOIAF, some kids are different  (Sam, etc). But he is directly compared with Lyanna  (who is compared to Brandon by Lady Dustin).

[Jon Fossoway]

16 minutes ago, SummerSphinx said:

Boltons seem like sociopaths generally.  Domeric actually enjoyed Redfort's sons and went looking for a bastard  brother because he wanted a brother as a companion.  

I am not insisting Domeric was not Roose's.  But if Cercei's kids are not very Baratheon, Domeric as described doesn't come off as very Bolton (he doesn't leech, doesn't have anger issues, doesn't flay, not noted for eating raw meat, not fear-inducing, doesn't play games with people).

In the real world, people are frequently very different from their parents. Even in ASOIAF, some kids are different  (Sam, etc). But he is directly compared with Lyanna  (who is compared to Brandon by Lady Dustin).

A fair point. I might say that, on another note, the Ryswells have a horse in their sigil, so they might be good riders. Mark Ryswell was a knight. We almost don't know anything about Beth Ryswell, the Roose first wife, 'cept that she "never made any sound in bed". Apart from any funny interpretations about it, Beth may have been a quiet woman, very much like her son, Domeric, which also got from her mother's family the love of horses. 

[SummerSphinx]

4 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

You are right, I thought that it was figuratively speaking. If someone is very good at something people tend to compare him or her with the people who have been the best at this. If someone is great at basketball people tend to compare him with the best basketball players in history not just with his contemporaries.

True, but ASOIAF is a very sexist world. It is odd to compare a rising young lord to a dead teenage girl in this context. Also, there is no TV, no video, no way for younger people like Theon to share the frame of reference.  

Finally, were there great tales told of Lyanna's ability? Great songs sung of her riding prowess? Her family knew, maybe people who visited knew...but it is new info to me that Roose was that impressed by her.  It makes her ability seem more significant than ever.

[Davjos]

If Domeric didn't have the ice cold blue eyes of Ramsey and Roose, but the grey of a Stark, it would have been noticed/mentioned. The blue ice cold eyes are the most distinctive physical traits of the Boltons and I think because no-one says he didn't, Domeric has them. I mean Roose is only convinced Ramsey is his because of the eyes. If Domeric didn't have his eyes this wouldn't make sense (I know your my Son because you have my eyecolor, but my other Son has a different eyecolor: it wouldn't hold any weight

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, SummerSphinx said:

True, but ASOIAF is a very sexist world. It is odd to compare a rising young lord to a dead teenage girl in this context. Also, there is no TV, no video, no way for younger people like Theon to share the frame of reference.  

Finally, were there great tales told of Lyanna's ability? Great songs sung of her riding prowess? Her family knew, maybe people who visited knew...but it is new info to me that Roose was that impressed by her.  It makes her ability seem more significant than ever.

I think you overthought about this. GRRM just wanted somebody to use some way to mention Lyanna's horseriding skill as a not so subtle hint to the readers for KOLT and RLJ. Lyanna is not known as the nationally famous horse rider by any tales or songs as far as we know. 

she is a good rider, likely as good as Elia Sand and Obara Sand. But no tale or song for that.  There are other girls who can be called half-horses. not just Lyanna. 

[Lost Umber]

Hmmm... This thread has me thinking... are Willas and Loras really Mace's sons? They are great swordsman and he's a bit of an oaf. Didn't his father ride off a cliff?  How did the great swordsmanship get in the family?  Clearly they are sons of Arthur Dayne.  

And isn't it just a little odd that Doran and Oberyn were so different in temperament and appearance? The Martell matriarch was likely messing around...

And rather a bit too coincidental that the Smalljon and Greatjon were both big men.  Too coincidental by far... something is amiss. There's probably a bit of Hodor blood in the family. 

There's more than just secret Targs and Bloodravens lurking around every corner of asoiaf. Everybody is secretly somebody else. Except for Roose... he's a vampire . 

[SummerSphinx]

32 minutes ago, Lost Umber said:

Hmmm... This thread has me thinking... are Willas and Loras really Mace's sons? They are great swordsman and he's a bit of an oaf. Didn't his father ride off a cliff?  How did the great swordsmanship get in the family?  Clearly they are sons of Arthur Dayne.  

And isn't it just a little odd that Doran and Oberyn were so different in temperament and appearance? The Martell matriarch was likely messing around...

And rather a bit too coincidental that the Smalljon and Greatjon were both big men.  Too coincidental by far... something is amiss. There's probably a bit of Hodor blood in the family. 

There's more than just secret Targs and Bloodravens lurking around every corner of asoiaf. Everybody is secretly somebody else. Except for Roose... he's a vampire . 

Yes, but you are ignoring the fact that we actually get Barbrey Dustin giving us a visual description of Brandon's genitals after taking her maidenhead.   I don't think we get that kind of detail with some of the others you mentioned. And Barbrey refers to their "last night" together, implying multiple trysts.  It's not like we don't know that Brandon Stark and Barbrey Ryswell were having sex.

If Brandon knew Barbrey, he probably knew Bethany  (though not necessarily in the biblical sense.) They were all kids together (like Lysa, Cat, and Littlefinger, and we know there was a Lysa pregnancy).

Barbrey was very fond of Domeric. Barbrey was the sister to Lady Bolton. It might not be the case that any of this happened, but my idea certainly isn't ONLY based on the fact that Domeric wasn't exactly like Roose. 

Plus it gives an alternate explanation for Barbrey's hatred of Ned.  Her hate seems very strong for it all to be about Lord Dustin's bones. 

[SummerSphinx]

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

I think you overthought about this. GRRM just wanted somebody to use some way to mention Lyanna's horseriding skill as a not so subtle hint to the readers for KOLT and RLJ. Lyanna is not known as the nationally famous horse rider by any tales or songs as far as we know. 

she is a good rider, likely as good as Elia Sand and Obara Sand. But no tale or song for that.  There are other girls who can be called half-horses. not just Lyanna. 

Well, if WoW were published, I don't think I'd be writing this, but I'm certainly not the only one wondering about details while waiting.

I've heard people say that GRRM compares Lyanna to Arya, and then Arya to Jon as a way of hinting that Jon is like Lyanna without being too direct.

So if Roose compares Domeric to Lyanna, and Lady Dustin calls Lyanna and Brandon a pair of centaurs, is that really so different?  

My favorite KoLT theory is that Lyanna was involved, but we don't know that 100%.  I'm not sure it was only Lyanna, though. It may have been a group effort.

All the "half horse" comments continue to make me wonder if Lyanna was an unrecognized skinchanger who bonded with horses.  If so, the comments about Lyanna and Domeric are even more interesting.  Did Domeric just ride well, or was he bonding with horses the way the current generation of Starks bonds with direwolves?

[SummerSphinx]

3 hours ago, Ethelarion said:

If Domeric didn't have the ice cold blue eyes of Ramsey and Roose, but the grey of a Stark, it would have been noticed/mentioned. The blue ice cold eyes are the most distinctive physical traits of the Boltons and I think because no-one says he didn't, Domeric has them. I mean Roose is only convinced Ramsey is his because of the eyes. If Domeric didn't have his eyes this wouldn't make sense (I know your my Son because you have my eyecolor, but my other Son has a different eyecolor: it wouldn't hold any weight

Only if GRRM wanted to smack us over the head with it. Whenever GRRM starts giving us eye coloring, it seems he wants to make a really obvious point or tease us. If he's slowly building up to something, he may not mention it.

Robert Baratheon didn't notice his own family situation.  Roose may not have noticed right away. Maybe he realizes now that he sees Ramsay.  He doesn't seem too bent out of shape about the loss of Domeric, whom he believes was murdered by Ramsay. Still makes Ramsay heir, didn't have to.