Was Domeric really Roose's son?

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

1 hour ago, SummerSphinx said:

 All the "half horse" comments continue to make me wonder if Lyanna was an unrecognized skinchanger who bonded with horses.  If so, the comments about Lyanna and Domeric are even more interesting.  Did Domeric just ride well, or was he bonding with horses the way the current generation of Starks bonds with direwolves?

I've wondered this for a while. It does sound like both Lyanna and Brandon, as well as possibly Domeric, who is of First Men blood himself but explicitly not Stark blood, were skinchanging their horses or had some sort of increased bond with the animal. Similarly, Arya skinchanged a cat while in Braavos, while still having frequent wolf dreams. She too is considered an excellent rider, and the tie that binds Lyanna, Brandon, and Arya is the evidence of them all having a drop of the "wolf blood", but that would exclude Domeric, as the Starks never ever intermarried with the Boltons. Although, there are ways to have some of the same genes as a family without marrying directly into it.

[black_hart]

People are like young Sansa on these matters (when she asked whether Arya was exchanged at birth). The idea that siblings have to be alike is made fun of very early in AGoT. Even where genetics are relevant (Baratheon vs. Lannister physical traits) we learn that Cersei's children are very dissimilar in character. Yet, here we stand.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Let's assume he wasn't. So, the late Domeric Bolton, who himself made no impact on the lives of any POV characters, isn't remembered by any POV characters, who died childless and hence his pedigree is no longer relevant to any succession line - was secretly a bastard. So? It makes no difference to the story. There's no point.

[SummerSphinx]

 

9 hours ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

I've wondered this for a while. It does sound like both Lyanna and Brandon, as well as possibly Domeric, who is of First Men blood himself but explicitly not Stark blood, were skinchanging their horses or had some sort of increased bond with the animal. Similarly, Arya skinchanged a cat while in Braavos, while still having frequent wolf dreams. She too is considered an excellent rider, and the tie that binds Lyanna, Brandon, and Arya is the evidence of them all having a drop of the "wolf blood", but that would exclude Domeric, as the Starks never ever intermarried with the Boltons. Although, there are ways to have some of the same genes as a family without marrying directly into it.

The main idea floated in this thread is that Domeric may have been a bastard Stark (Brandon with Barbrey or Bethany),  and the skinchanging idea would possibly lean toward him being a bastard Stark. I just am intrigued by Lyanna's abilities.

[SummerSphinx]

3 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Let's assume he wasn't. So, the late Domeric Bolton, who himself made no impact on the lives of any POV characters, isn't remembered by any POV characters, who died childless and hence his pedigree is no longer relevant to any succession line - was secretly a bastard. So? It makes no difference to the story. There's no point.

Actually, Lord Roose Bolton killed his king and turned his cloak. He convinced the Freys to break guest right.  Serious, serious significant stuff.  Why?  

The explanations we have are "Game of Thrones," and "Boltons are sociopaths." Fair enough. But maybe Roose suddenly suspected his accomplished heir wasn't his?  Not saying it must be so, but it would explain his rather significant and severe treatment of Robb.

[SummerSphinx]

22 hours ago, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

There isn't enough to go on. And I don't know how many background plots need to be worked into the books. It's an interesting what-if but I cannot see this playing into the story. Same way the possibility of Black Walder being the real father of some of Walder Freys kids/grandkids. It might matter to the house but it won't have a large effect on the story.

It may give additional reason for Lord Bolton to help plot the Red Wedding. He murdered Robb himself...his king. 

When Ned saw Gendry, it helped things click for him: Cercei's kids were not a bit like Robert.  Perhaps the emergence of Ramsay caused Roose to reconsider his own situation.

Also, I hate all of Lady Dustin's dialogue with Theon in the crypts.  Why do we get sooooooooo much detail about Barbrey/Brandon?  Maybe I'm trying to find out why all that had to be included, too.

[SummerSphinx]

6 hours ago, black_hart said:

People are like young Sansa on these matters (when she asked whether Arya was exchanged at birth). The idea that siblings have to be alike is made fun of very early in AGoT. Even where genetics are relevant (Baratheon vs. Lannister physical traits) we learn that Cersei's children are very dissimilar in character. Yet, here we stand.

None of this is real life, we have to enter into the "rules" of a make believe world with Baratheon characteristics, Targaryen characteristics, etc.  These characteristics are usually tied to the House sigil.  So even though Ned, Lyanna, and Brandon were all different from one another (the Quiet Wolf, the Wolf Maid, the Wild Wolf), they were all believably wolves.

In this instance, Domeric does not seem like one who loves carrying around an image of a  Flayed Man and retreating to the Dreadfort. It isn't that he is different from Ramsay, it is that there seems to be little obvious connection to the creepy sociopaths of the Bolton line.

He does seem significantly more like his mother's house sigil (a horse), which I did mention in my OP. And Roose is quiet, I grant you that.

But the difference from the Bolton family and it's sigil isn't the only reason for the idea that Domeric was a Stark bastard.  It might be a sign Domeric bonded with horses like Lyanna did...in a mystical, skinchanging sort of way, a Stark trait. It also helps describe why we get so much detail from Lady Barbrey about her sex life with Brandon, it explains how she blames Ned for her not being a Stark (he wouldn't marry her and legitimize her child), it gives Roose Bolton more motivation for the cruelty of the Red Wedding. 

Of course siblings are different, but there is a lot more going on here then just that.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 hour ago, SummerSphinx said:

Actually, Lord Roose Bolton killed his king and turned his cloak. He convinced the Freys to break guest right.  Serious, serious significant stuff.  Why?  

Here's the extensive list of all the people in the Seven Kingdoms who think that that was out of character for Lord Bolton:

 

I think I got them all, although if I missed someone, feel free to complete the list.

Roose was introduced as a cool, ruthless SOB from day one. Here's the very first mention of him in the books:

"On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert's friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat".

Ladies and gentlemen, the Lord of the Dreadfort.

1 hour ago, SummerSphinx said:

The explanations we have are "Game of Thrones," and "Boltons are sociopaths." Fair enough. But maybe Roose suddenly suspected his accomplished heir wasn't his?  Not saying it must be so, but it would explain his rather significant and severe treatment of Robb.

It all seems like an unnecessary construct to explain what doesn't need any additional explanation.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

As it has been noted above, Domeric himself is irrelevent and that's an understatement. All it's said about him serves the characterization of Roose and Ramsey, and only them.

Domeric, for all we know, could have been a decent human, or someone who, like his dad, goes about his rapings in descretion, or anything in-between. It doesn't matter what it was (unless it's meant as a counter-argument to some "supernatural Bolton" theories that need all Boltons to be *something* by design).

[SummerSphinx]

5 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Roose was introduced as a cool, ruthless SOB from day one. Here's the very first mention of him in the books:

"On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert's friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat".

Ladies and gentlemen, the Lord of the Dreadfort.

It all seems like an unnecessary construct to explain what doesn't need any additional explanation.

I don't claim that it is necessary at all; I do find it interesting to wonder about while I'm waiting for tWoW....especially since GRRM decided to bring Domeric  up and drop some details (which he didn't need to do).  We already knew Lyanna liked to ride, and there were dozens of other ways he could have highlighted her horse skills.

I won't be surprised if there is nothing more to the Domeric story, but why did GRRM bother with it?

I think I'm approaching everything in a different way then you are, which is fine.

I don't think Roose's suggestion that they kill a wounded knight of the opposing forces (who slew many of his men in battle) is really anywhere near the level of the Red Wedding. People die in battles, and they die in the aftermath of battles. The more honorable men might spare famous knights, but it doesn't seem unthinkable that others wouldn't.

The Red Wedding, however, still surprises many characters in the story, and it is not forgotten.

Roose says to Ramsay: "No tales were ever told of me. Do you think I would be sitting here if it were otherwise? Your amusements are your own, I will not chide you on that count, but you must be more discreet. A peaceful land, a quiet people, that has always been my rule. Make it yours."

He reiterates to Theon: "A peaceful land, a quiet people, that has always been my rule."

Nothing about the Red Wedding seems peaceful or quiet. No crazy "accident," no mysterious disappearance. It was public, dramatic, cruel, and shocking. 

[Jon Fossoway]

1 hour ago, SummerSphinx said:

I don't claim that it is necessary at all; I do find it interesting to wonder about while I'm waiting for tWoW....especially since GRRM decided to bring Domeric  up and drop some details (which he didn't need to do).  We already knew Lyanna liked to ride, and there were dozens of other ways he could have highlighted her horse skills.

I won't be surprised if there is nothing more to the Domeric story, but why did GRRM bother with it?

I think I'm approaching everything in a different way then you are, which is fine.

I don't think Roose's suggestion that they kill a wounded knight of the opposing forces (who slew many of his men in battle) is really anywhere near the level of the Red Wedding. People die in battles, and they die in the aftermath of battles. The more honorable men might spare famous knights, but it doesn't seem unthinkable that others wouldn't.

The Red Wedding, however, still surprises many characters in the story, and it is not forgotten.

Roose says to Ramsay: "No tales were ever told of me. Do you think I would be sitting here if it were otherwise? Your amusements are your own, I will not chide you on that count, but you must be more discreet. A peaceful land, a quiet people, that has always been my rule. Make it yours."

He reiterates to Theon: "A peaceful land, a quiet people, that has always been my rule."

Nothing about the Red Wedding seems peaceful or quiet. No crazy "accident," no mysterious disappearance. It was public, dramatic, cruel, and shocking. 

But the Red Wedding was conducted in the Twins, where the Freys broke guest right and assassinated the King in the North. Roose conveniently, even being a perpretator, melded with the ambiance. In the end, I guess songs will sing about lord Frey's betrayal.

 

[sweetsunray]

The parallel that George bridges between Lyanna and Rhaegar with Domeric is interesting and noteworthy, but I do not take it as a literal one, or as something that is meant to tell us something about Domeric, such as his parentage or identity. Imo George uses Domeric to tell us something about Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Consider the question, "Why did George elaborate on Domeric's skills, when Domeric is a dead character and only important to tertiary characters such as Ramsay and Roose?"

Domeric is just not important enough. Lyanna and Rhaegar are also dead characters but who they were and what happened in the past between is pivotal. Unfortunately, the witnesses are all dead, except perhaps for Lem if he's Richard Lonmouth (and we do not know how much Richard was a witness to), and Howland Reed who's kept off page. The only way that George can sprinkle clues here and there, after Ned's death is through in world coincidental parallels (but deliberately incorporated by the author), apart from an info dump via HR (who was not an eye-witness to the kidnapping) or a flashback reveal in Bran's POV through the weirnet.

"Jousting, riding and harp": Domeric has all in common with Rhaegar. He is like a Rhaegar stand-inn. We also learn that Domeric, the Rhaegar stand-inn, was such a good rider that he rode better than Lyanna. Of course, Domeric never actually raced against Lyanna. Roose's comparison is like a reporter saying that Usain Bolt could outrace Ben Johnson even though both sprinters never actually competed against each other in real life. But someone else who was a contemporary horseback rider  of Lyanna did outrace her - Rhaegar. Hence, why we learn that Domeric was a great jouster, rider and fond of harp. If and when Lyanna had attempted to flee from Rhaegar on horseback, Rhaegar would have been able to catch up with her. That is what the Domeric info is about.

This is not an isolated parallel, with a male horserider being able to catch up with Lyanna. In aSoS, Arya tries to escape from the BwB not long after being taken by them at the Inn of the Kneeling Man. She manages to outrace almost everybody, except for Harwin, who catches up with her, compliments her by telling her she rides like her aunt Lyanna, nonetheless Harwin can still beat her in a race. So, we have Arya being a stand-in parallel for Lyanna, and a highly trained horserider (as the son of the master-of-horse) catching up with her. This doesn't mean that Rhaegar should now be regarded as the son of the stablemaster. After all, Harwin is not a full parallel to Rhaegar, since Harwin doesn't joust (as far as we know) and doesn't play harp either

But basically George used Domeric as a stand-in character to tell us something about the "kidnapping" or KotLT search: Lyanna was very good at horseriding, but a skilled and trained exceptional horserider such as Rhaegar could outrace her.

 

[GloubieBoulga]

2 hours ago, SummerSphinx said:

I don't claim that it is necessary at all; I do find it interesting to wonder about while I'm waiting for tWoW....especially since GRRM decided to bring Domeric  up and drop some details (which he didn't need to do).  We already knew Lyanna liked to ride, and there were dozens of other ways he could have highlighted her horse skills.

I won't be surprised if there is nothing more to the Domeric story, but why did GRRM bother with it?

 

 

Indeed, there are too much allusions to the similarities between Domeric and Brandon Stark (Ned's brother) to be innocent. Wether Domeric was really Brandon's bastard (with lady Bolton) or not isn't very important imo, but this could be significant that Roose or/and Barbrey believed that he was a bastard. Barbrey had him for few years, he was for her like the son that she could never have (let's remind that his husband is dead young and she never married again), and he loved horses like the young Brandon Stark. 

Hypothetic scenario : with Barbrey in found of his own son, who recalls Brandon Stark to Ryswell people, Roose begins to suspect that he is not his. Oh, and Domeric has not his eyes. So he organized the assassination of Domeric, probably helped by a maester, and Ramsay will be a perfect suspected guilty for this one (Roose never tells to Ramsay 'you killed Domeric", but he only says that Barbrey believes that). Ramsay is a goat character for his father, who uses him to cover his own crimes (or to make his own crimes less horrible than Ramsay's). Roose - with his leeches - has the real intention to live a very long life (as the old lord Walder), and this habitude contradicts his words (explicite and implicite), when he pretends having Ramsay as unic heir because he is no more young and risks to die before his others childrens can grow enough to rule as lords. 

I think also that Barbrey strong believes to Roose's responsability, and is playing a lie. Let's have look to what she says to Theon-Reek, whom she perfectly knows that he will all telling to Ramsay or/and Roose : 

- she never speaks about Domeric. Absolutely never (very strange for someone who can speak about her "secret" huge love Brandon). She never alludes that Ramsay is his murder, but we know that she openly refuses him as guest at Barrowton. As if Domeric didn't count nor existed to her : insteed, she speaks about older stories and her desire to have revenge on... Ned Stark because of Lord Dustin bones. 

- she tells that Roose wants to be king in the North, and she can only smile when Theon suggest that she could be a queen. Really serious ? Just after have said that Roose was a implacable player and all other people pawns for him ? 

All this informations are not informations for Roose, but he can believe that Barbrey is ambitious and want revenge against Starks, and will be a precious ally because of this revenge's desire (she claims also that the Dustin were first King in the North, before the Stark). But this could be a mask too, and as she says it about Roose, Barbrey could also be a player with her real prey : the real revenge that Barbrey desires is against Roose, whom she "knows" he's responsible of Domeric's death, with the complicity of a maester, for poisonning; and suddenly, we have a sort of other "Jon Arryn affair", with a first guilty as the Lannister's clan - especially Cersei -, but we learn at the end of ASOS that the real murders were LF and Lysa Arryn; in fact, ASOIAF is full of falses guilties who are accused and must paid for the real guilties, because the appearances are against them.

In fact, it would be suprising that Ramsay killed Domeric : he isn't innocent for the hunts of women, or the destruction of Winterfell (aso...), but his portraiture as a "human in beast skin" make that we put easy on him the responsability of other crimes "off scene" (and we forget that Roose gave Brienne to the Bloody Mummers, when he wasn't forced to - it was only to keep Vargo Hoat unsuspicious he was sold to Tywin at this point; and also we forget that he wanted to abandon Nan/Arya to the same Bloody Mummers even after she had well served at Harrenhal). When Ramsay kill someone, he is very cruel, he is a hunter who is playing with a prey, and finish as a butcher. Domeric's death is absolutely nothing like that. It is not "Ramsay's manner". 

 

So... is Domeric Roose's son or a Brandon's bastard ? I don't know. It could be very ironically tragic that he were really from Roose, but that Roose believed he was a bastard and "killed" him for that. That could remind us the case Tyrion and Tywin, as mirror effect. 

 

[SummerSphinx]

13 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

 

Indeed, there are too much allusions to the similarities between Domeric and Brandon Stark (Ned's brother) to be innocent. Wether Domeric was really Brandon's bastard (with lady Bolton) or not isn't very important imo, but this could be significant that Roose or/and Barbrey believed that he was a bastard. Barbrey had him for few years, he was for her like the son that she could never have (let's remind that his husband is dead young and she never married again).....

Barbrey could also be a player with her real prey : the real revenge that Barbrey desires is against Roose, whom she "knows" he's responsible of Domeric's death, with the complicity of a maester, for poisonning...

 

So... is Domeric Roose's son or a Brandon's bastard ? I don't know. It could be very ironically tragic that he were really from Roose, but that Roose believed he was a bastard and "killed" him for that. That could remind us the case Tyrion and Tywin, as mirror effect. 

 

Very interesting ideas!  I wouldn't put it past Roose to pin things on Ramsay.  It was odd Roose told Theon he wouldn't live long enough to see Walda's sons to manhood.  That didn't make sense to me.

I cannot tell when Barbrey and Roose are totally BSing.

[SummerSphinx]

There are some interesting ideas in this thread, some of which relate to this one:

 

[JLE]

43 minutes ago, SummerSphinx said:

Very interesting ideas!  I wouldn't put it past Roose to pin things on Ramsay.  It was odd Roose told Theon he wouldn't live long enough to see Walda's sons to manhood.  That didn't make sense to me.

I cannot tell when Barbrey and Roose are totally BSing.

Well... It *is* the North, and it is winter. The season in which the old die and make way for the young. In the south, Roose might live a good long time yet: in the North, if this winter is not his end, the next one will be, and winters are seldom as far apart as the ten years that there have been since the last winter. And that's without the reckoning that Ramsay may murder him in the meantime - indeed, even if he has to do away with Ramsay.

I think he can also see the writing on the wall: hoping that Ramsay would grow up to be an acceptable heir, he is disappointed, and knows that Ramsay's behaviour will turn the whole North against him sooner or later - indeed, were it not for southern hostages, the whole North would already be in open rebellion. The fall of Winterfell could be blamed on the ironborn, but the story of Lady Hornwood is already out - as is the story of the woman he hunted, murdered and raped before his capture *by* the men of Winterfell: the women of Winterfell were taken back, not as refugees but as captives, and fed one by one to his dogs in the "hunts" after escape attempts, and *that* story is also out, either because some of the women actually succeed in escaping or because enough witnesses have told the story. Ramsay's atrocities have already doomed Ramsay himself, and his father with him. The only hope for a surviving Bolton heir is if Ramsay manages to sire a child on a Stark, or on someone who can be passed off as a Stark - someone who might be spared when the North rises against Bolton because the North still loves the Starks. If Ramsay married into any other house, or any other woman, and sired a child, that child would in all probability be slaughtered shortly after Ramsay's inevitable demise.

[SummerSphinx]

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The parallel that George bridges between Lyanna and Rhaegar with Domeric is interesting and noteworthy, but I do not take it as a literal one, or as something that is meant to tell us something about Domeric, such as his parentage or identity. Imo George uses Domeric to tell us something about Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Consider the question, "Why did George elaborate on Domeric's skills, when Domeric is a dead character and only important to tertiary characters such as Ramsay and Roose?"

Domeric is just not important enough. Lyanna and Rhaegar are also dead characters but who they were and what happened in the past between is pivotal. Unfortunately, the witnesses are all dead, except perhaps for Lem if he's Richard Lonmouth (and we do not know how much Richard was a witness to), and Howland Reed who's kept off page. The only way that George can sprinkle clues here and there, after Ned's death is through in world coincidental parallels (but deliberately incorporated by the author), apart from an info dump via HR (who was not an eye-witness to the kidnapping) or a flashback reveal in Bran's POV through the weirnet.

"Jousting, riding and harp": Domeric has all in common with Rhaegar. He is like a Rhaegar stand-inn. We also learn that Domeric, the Rhaegar stand-inn, was such a good rider that he rode better than Lyanna. Of course, Domeric never actually raced against Lyanna. Roose's comparison is like a reporter saying that Usain Bolt could outrace Ben Johnson even though both sprinters never actually competed against each other in real life. But someone else who was a contemporary horseback rider  of Lyanna did outrace her - Rhaegar. Hence, why we learn that Domeric was a great jouster, rider and fond of harp. If and when Lyanna had attempted to flee from Rhaegar on horseback, Rhaegar would have been able to catch up with her. That is what the Domeric info is about.

This is not an isolated parallel, with a male horserider being able to catch up with Lyanna. In aSoS, Arya tries to escape from the BwB not long after being taken by them at the Inn of the Kneeling Man. She manages to outrace almost everybody, except for Harwin, who catches up with her, compliments her by telling her she rides like her aunt Lyanna, nonetheless Harwin can still beat her in a race. So, we have Arya being a stand-in parallel for Lyanna, and a highly trained horserider (as the son of the master-of-horse) catching up with her. This doesn't mean that Rhaegar should now be regarded as the son of the stablemaster. After all, Harwin is not a full parallel to Rhaegar, since Harwin doesn't joust (as far as we know) and doesn't play harp either

But basically George used Domeric as a stand-in character to tell us something about the "kidnapping" or KotLT search: Lyanna was very good at horseriding, but a skilled and trained exceptional horserider such as Rhaegar could outrace her.

 

I see this type of explanation (parallel hints through time) as one possible explanation, but I am just not as certain about it as you are.

Domeric as a stand-in for Rhaegar?  

My favorite KoLT idea is that Lyanna used an undisclosed Stark skinchanging ability to help with the mystery night ruse (maybe Howland rode, maybe Ned, maybe Lyanna). Howland may know some glamour tricks? Rhaegar finds out (or asks Lyanna to demonstrate her ability), and then Lyanna actually helps Rhaegar win the tournament by skinchanging horses (and/or glamouring). Rhaegar actually wasn't a marvelous jouster, but he did extra, extra well at HH.  He defeated Brandon Stark I believe (who rode as well or almost as well as Lyanna), as well as Barristan Selmy.  Giving Lyanna the roses was his (stupid?) way of acknowledging "her" role in his win.  He wouldn't have won without her. Or maybe the teenage girl was flirting and made him promise he'd crown her if she helped him win.

So back to Domeric. 

If he rode better than Lyanna, how does that create a Rhaegar parallel? We already knew Lyanna was a great rider.

I don't think Rhaegar was as wonderful a rider as Lyanna  (correct me if I've forgotten something).  If Rhaegar was a great rider, Barristan, Viserys, Connington, Ned, Cercei, or many others could share that info about Rhaegar.

If Domeric really is just a Ryswell/Bolton, it makes Lyanna seem a little more ordinary in her riding.  Great..but not the best.  

She never was going to be as large or strong as Brienne, but I like her being an awesome horsewoman. So I guess I prefer to believe her horseriding abilities were very unique to her Stark skinchanging, and that is why I want to believe the only way Domeric was better was because he was also a skinchanger (of the Stark kind, not the skin flayer kind).

Of course, Roose may have just been bragging about his son.

[SummerSphinx]

48 minutes ago, JLE said:

Well... It *is* the North, and it is winter. The season in which the old die and make way for the young. In the south, Roose might live a good long time yet: in the North, if this winter is not his end, the next one will be, and winters are seldom as far apart as the ten years that there have been since the last winter. And that's without the reckoning that Ramsay may murder him in the meantime - indeed, even if he has to do away with Ramsay.

I think he can also see the writing on the wall: hoping that Ramsay would grow up to be an acceptable heir, he is disappointed, and knows that Ramsay's behaviour will turn the whole North against him sooner or later - indeed, were it not for southern hostages, the whole North would already be in open rebellion. The fall of Winterfell could be blamed on the ironborn, but the story of Lady Hornwood is already out - as is the story of the woman he hunted, murdered and raped before his capture *by* the men of Winterfell: the women of Winterfell were taken back, not as refugees but as captives, and fed one by one to his dogs in the "hunts" after escape attempts, and *that* story is also out, either because some of the women actually succeed in escaping or because enough witnesses have told the story. Ramsay's atrocities have already doomed Ramsay himself, and his father with him. The only hope for a surviving Bolton heir is if Ramsay manages to sire a child on a Stark, or on someone who can be passed off as a Stark - someone who might be spared when the North rises against Bolton because the North still loves the Starks. If Ramsay married into any other house, or any other woman, and sired a child, that child would in all probability be slaughtered shortly after Ramsay's inevitable demise.

I won't disagree with you. Well said. Also, some Freys may blab about Roose's role in the Red Wedding. It seems the Freys are openly taking more of the heat for that, but Roose was fully on board. I forget how widely his role is known.  I don't think Barbrey knows, does she?

[JLE]

Probably not - but Roose and his men *did* come back alive from the Red Wedding where most of the rest of the North did not (including Robb's own half of the army, unbeaten in pitched battle, whereas Roose's forces had known only defeats plus taking Harrenhall by treachery rather than siege), and Roose is married to a Frey, and the two Freys were saved from Winterfell. The fact that Roose murdered Robb personally may not be known, but the North can surely put two and two together - the Manderlys certainly have, and in any case have their own enmity with the Boltons over the fate of Donella Manderly-Hornwood.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 10:47 AM, SummerSphinx said:

snip

Thoughts?

To understand Domeric, you have to understand Roose. Here is my take, most of it based on circumstantial evidence, mind you:

Roose is the last surviving son of the Night's King, which makes him half-human and either half-Other or half-wight. When Joruman and the KoW slew the NK, they rescued little Roose from being sacrificed the way Craster sacrifices his sons. With the NK being either a Bolton, Roose inherited his lands and titles, namely the Dreadfort. Thus began Roose's 7,000-year existence of fathering sons on human brides, waiting for them to come of age, then killing them, flaying them (hence the sigil) and then donning their skins to form a perfect likeness of the son, except for his eyes which remain pale as milkglass. Then he assumes the role of the new lord of the Dreadfort for a generation, until the next lord comes of age and the process repeats.

This is why Roose never sweats, is virtually hairless and is able to silence loud boisterous louts like the Greatjon with barely a whisper. He also must leach himself constantly or else his hands and feet will turn black from coagulated blood.

There is also a good chance that Roose has managed to become lord of Winterfell on occasion, most recently as Brandon Ice-Eyes.

Which brings us to Dom and Rams. Roose stated that the moment he saw Ramsey's eyes, he knew he was his. So my take from that is that Dom did not have the pale eyes and was most likely Brandon's bastard -- not with Barbrey but Bethany herself. For Roose, that means he is not a candidate for skinning because he can only do this with a direct descendent. Enter Ramsey. I find it inconceivable that, even if Roose is the most cold-hearted evil-prick lord in the history of the 7K, he would not only blithely dismiss the fact that his bastard killed his son and heir -- someone who by all accounts would have made a phenomenal lord and would have greatly enhanced the prestige and fortunes of House Bolton -- and then go on to reward the bastard -- whose blood is so vile that it would kill leeches -- with his name and titles. The only way this makes sense, IMO, is that time is growing short for Roose in his current body and he needs a viable body in line for skinning that also preserves his hold on the Dreadfort.

Again, all this is circumstantial at the moment, and many dismiss it inaccurately as Roose the Vampire or Bolt-on, but if I'm right, then at some point Roose will die and Ramsey's eyes will suddenly appear even paler than they are now, and he will calm down, start speaking in whispers, leeching himself and so on. Then we'll know that the switch has been made.