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The Amber Compendium of Norse Myth: Chapter I, Yggdrasil


Bluetiger

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11 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Interestingly enough, GRRM often (well at least twice) misuses collective names for two of his favorite animals.  He has referenced a murder of ravens, when in fact as far as I can tell, it is a murder of crows, not ravens.  And an unkindness of crows, when it should be an unkindness of ravens, not crows.  

It seems an odd mistake for him, so I wonder if he is enjoying a private joke there.

He is probably pointing out that since ravens and crows are cousins (keep in mind that Nymeria has a pack of smaller cousins) then they are interchangeable. Its probably going back to what we suspect that the Others are not so different as they appear to be like calling them Craster's Sons or The brothers and then having that word brother used by the NW, KG, BwB, and loosely when we look at the adherence to regional identities.  Edit: and the blood riders, "Blood of my Blood".

 

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I was trying to educate myself on Norse mythology a couple days ago and came across Sleipnir's origin story.  I'm sure most of you already know it, but if it is mentioned anywhere on the forums I missed it.  From Wikipedia  

 

In chapter 42, Sleipnir's origins are described. Gangleri (described earlier in the book as King Gylfi in disguise) asks High who the horse Sleipnir belongs to and what there is to tell about it. High expresses surprise in Gangleri's lack of knowledge about Sleipnir and its origin. High tells a story set "right at the beginning of the gods' settlement, when the gods established Midgard and built Val-Hall" about an unnamed builder who has offered to build a fortification for the gods in three seasons that will keep out invaders in exchange for the goddess Freyja, the sun, and the moon. After some debate, the gods agree to this, but place a number of restrictions on the builder, including that he must complete the work within three seasons with the help of no man. The builder makes a single request; that he may have help from his stallion Svaðilfari, and due to Loki's influence, this is allowed. The stallion Svaðilfari performs twice the deeds of strength as the builder, and hauls enormous rocks to the surprise of the gods. The builder, with Svaðilfari, makes fast progress on the wall, and three days before the deadline of summer, the builder was nearly at the entrance to the fortification. The gods convene, and figured out who was responsible, resulting in a unanimous agreement that, along with most trouble, Loki was to blame.[9]

The gods declare that Loki would deserve a horrible death if he could not find a scheme that would cause the builder to forfeit his payment, and threatened to attack him. Loki, afraid, swore oaths that he would devise a scheme to cause the builder to forfeit the payment, whatever it would cost himself. That night, the builder drove out to fetch stone with his stallion Svaðilfari, and out from a wood ran a mare. The mare neighed at Svaðilfari, and "realizing what kind of horse it was," Svaðilfari became frantic, neighed, tore apart his tackle, and ran towards the mare. The mare ran to the wood, Svaðilfari followed, and the builder chased after. The two horses ran around all night, causing the building work to be held up for the night, and the previous momentum of building work that the builder had been able to maintain was not continued.[10]

When the Æsir realize that the builder is a hrimthurs, they disregard their previous oaths with the builder, and call for Thor. Thor arrives, and kills the builder by smashing the builder's skull into shards with the hammer Mjöllnir. However, Loki had "such dealings" with Svaðilfari that "somewhat later" Loki gave birth to a grey foal with eight legs; the horse Sleipnir, "the best horse among gods and men."[10]

 

This is a lot like the Night King's story right?  Except it is a wall builder that is  indirectly the target of the seduction.  Then there's this.

 

The Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culturetheorizes that Sleipnir's eight legs may be the remnants of horse-associated divine twinsfound in Indo-European cultures and ultimately stemming from Proto-Indo-European religion. The encyclopedia states that "[...] Sleipnir is born with an extra set of legs, thus representing an original pair of horses. Like Freyr and Njörðr, Sleipnir is responsible for carrying the dead to the otherworld." The encyclopedia cites parallels between the birth of Sleipnir and myths originally pointing to a Celtic goddess who gave birth to the Divine horse twins. These elements include a demand for a goddess by an unwanted suitor (the hrimthurs demanding the goddess Freyja) and the seduction of builders.[25]

 

So, there is another story in Celtic  mythology that also involves seducing a builder, except this one gives birth to twins.  I tried to find who this was, but was unsuccessful.  If anyone has any idea who this is it would be worth reading about.  When I search for "Celtic horse goddess" and "divine twins" I keep finding Macha, but I cannot find anything about her and anyone building anything.  She is interesting herself, being associated with ravens, horses, and according to one source, wolves.  I did find something about her that made me think of ASoIaF, there is this from the Order of the white moon blog.  This happened right after she was forced to race a chariot while pregnant and won. She gave birth to twins at the end of the race.  

 

It is said that the boy ran to the sea.  This is curious as Macha is also known as “The Daughter of the Sea”.2  It brings one to wonder if the sea is being spoken of metaphorically to indicate one of the Otherworlds.  This terminology could be used to indicate that the son died immediately after birth.  Some versions of the tale also indicate that Macha and Her twins died in birth which might metaphorically speak to Macha and Her children returning to the Otherworld.

 

So apparently "into the sea" is an established metaphor for going into the Otherworld, and at least one of her twins went there when born.  It would not surprise me if something like this is a thing in the Long Night 1.0.  Night's King went into Otherworld while the Stark at Winterfell did not perhaps.

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It is perhaps a bit more complex.

I see the Southern states as more or less representing Asgard and the gods of the Andal/Anglosaxon/Vikings. Thus Thor god of thunder, wielding a hammer, heavy drinker and womaniser is Stormlands (or at least Robert). Tyr/Tue god of war and justice is Westerlands, with Jaime representing the war aspect and Tyrion the justice. Bloodraven is a dead set ringer for Odin/Woden, the complex, clever, one eyed,warrior/wizard who hangs about in trees with wolves and ravens but I am not sure if he represents Riverlands or the North.

Ned, Robb and Sansa are the three gods held captive by Asgard, belonging to the Vanir (names Njord the father -very Ned like, Freyr meaning lord and Freya meaning Lady). Gendry and Edrik Storm are the sons of Thor who survive Rajnarok. Hodor is obviously Hodr and Bran probably (there is a complexity) Balder. Both are sons of Odin. 

Of the major remaining gods of Asgard we have Loki and Heimdall not clearly marked in the story by name etc. there are two candidates for Loki - Little Finger and Theon. I lean towards Theon (and the Iron islands being the representatives of the complex character Loki - the trickster turned evil. His treatment by Ramsay Snow could well be the equivalent of his punishment with the serpent.

heimdall is probably Jon, his watcher on the wall role certainly fits

Then there are the three sort of universal gods/goddesses - Sun (Dorne), Moon (Vale) and agriculture (reach).  they are not particularly strongly featured in the Norse stories but may be far older.

In the north and possibly elsewhere we have the representatives of Celtic Gods and Goddesses (especially Welsh). Arya is probably Arianhod, godess of the moon and also a battle goddess. It is SHE who gives birth to twins Dylan (a water deity who dies -see comment above re water and death) and also to Lleu the sun god. There are however two babies who could represent the twins - Gilly's boy and Mance's son. if GRRM had stuck to his original story they perhaps as in the myth would have been the sons of Arya (Arianhod) and Gwydion (probably Jon). Lyanna the horse girl is a bit of a look alike for Rhiannon the horse goddess who lost her son. Bran is complex because he had the name of Bran the Celtic god of the underworld (sorta) who became a disembodied living head (paraplegic or quadriplegic) but lived on providing advice for many years. Thus he seems to be both Bran and Balder (the dying god).

Ned also seems a little dual - rather like Nudd (Lludd) with Dany sharing characteristics of Danu the mother goddess. Mance could possibly be Manawaddyn.  Not quite sure who Lyr woulf be, but Euron is a dead set ringer for the evil Aeron.

It seems to me that the clearly Southern people are linked to the Norse gods, and those of the far North the Celtic gods. Those like the Starks, trapped between two worlds seem to represent both groups and all those with a bit of magic seem to parallel the stories of the Celtic gods.

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On 2/1/2017 at 7:40 PM, Luddagain said:

It is perhaps a bit more complex.

I see the Southern states as more or less representing Asgard and the gods of the Andal/Anglosaxon/Vikings. Thus Thor god of thunder, wielding a hammer, heavy drinker and womaniser is Stormlands (or at least Robert). Tyr/Tue god of war and justice is Westerlands, with Jaime representing the war aspect and Tyrion the justice. Bloodraven is a dead set ringer for Odin/Woden, the complex, clever, one eyed,warrior/wizard who hangs about in trees with wolves and ravens but I am not sure if he represents Riverlands or the North.

Ned, Robb and Sansa are the three gods held captive by Asgard, belonging to the Vanir (names Njord the father -very Ned like, Freyr meaning lord and Freya meaning Lady). Gendry and Edrik Storm are the sons of Thor who survive Rajnarok. Hodor is obviously Hodr and Bran probably (there is a complexity) Balder. Both are sons of Odin. 

Of the major remaining gods of Asgard we have Loki and Heimdall not clearly marked in the story by name etc. there are two candidates for Loki - Little Finger and Theon. I lean towards Theon (and the Iron islands being the representatives of the complex character Loki - the trickster turned evil. His treatment by Ramsay Snow could well be the equivalent of his punishment with the serpent.

heimdall is probably Jon, his watcher on the wall role certainly fits

Then there are the three sort of universal gods/goddesses - Sun (Dorne), Moon (Vale) and agriculture (reach).  they are not particularly strongly featured in the Norse stories but may be far older.

In the north and possibly elsewhere we have the representatives of Celtic Gods and Goddesses (especially Welsh). Arya is probably Arianhod, godess of the moon and also a battle goddess. It is SHE who gives birth to twins Dylan (a water deity who dies -see comment above re water and death) and also to Lleu the sun god. There are however two babies who could represent the twins - Gilly's boy and Mance's son. if GRRM had stuck to his original story they perhaps as in the myth would have been the sons of Arya (Arianhod) and Gwydion (probably Jon). Lyanna the horse girl is a bit of a look alike for Rhiannon the horse goddess who lost her son. Bran is complex because he had the name of Bran the Celtic god of the underworld (sorta) who became a disembodied living head (paraplegic or quadriplegic) but lived on providing advice for many years. Thus he seems to be both Bran and Balder (the dying god).

Ned also seems a little dual - rather like Nudd (Lludd) with Dany sharing characteristics of Danu the mother goddess. Mance could possibly be Manawaddyn.  Not quite sure who Lyr woulf be, but Euron is a dead set ringer for the evil Aeron.

It seems to me that the clearly Southern people are linked to the Norse gods, and those of the far North the Celtic gods. Those like the Starks, trapped between two worlds seem to represent both groups and all those with a bit of magic seem to parallel the stories of the Celtic gods.

I know just enough about several of the gods you mention to understand that you are right about at least most of that.  This was helpful, I'm headed to read about things you mention that went over my head.  

 

Do you think that I am barking up the wrong tree comparing Loki's trick that birthed Sleipnir being the partial Nights King story?  Both are led into the woods chasing sex, one from a wall, one was building a wall, and if Brandon the Builder is The Nights King then he was both.  It really seems that this is a thing to me.

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I notices also that GRRM has chosen Welsh/Irish mythology for some names of the Targs. Dany = Danu, Aerion was an evil god, Maelor was a welsh king, and of course every name Bael mist be associated with the terrible Celtic God Bael who turned people to stone with his eye. Given the association of Wales and Dragons that makes sense.

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On 1/31/2017 at 10:17 PM, Unchained said:

I

-snip-

The Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culturetheorizes that Sleipnir's eight legs may be the remnants of horse-associated divine twinsfound in Indo-European cultures and ultimately stemming from Proto-Indo-European religion. The encyclopedia states that "[...] Sleipnir is born with an extra set of legs, thus representing an original pair of horses. Like Freyr and Njörðr, Sleipnir is responsible for carrying the dead to the otherworld." The encyclopedia cites parallels between the birth of Sleipnir and myths originally pointing to a Celtic goddess who gave birth to the Divine horse twins. These elements include a demand for a goddess by an unwanted suitor (the hrimthurs demanding the goddess Freyja) and the seduction of builders.[25]

 

-snip-

I like the idea of Sleipnir as a pair of conjoined horse twins.  And surprisingly there are a lot of references to twin horses, or  divine twins associated with horses in various mythologies.

We have the myth of Castor and Pollux, twin brothers (even though each had a different father, kind of a child of three).  Both twins' iconography associates them with horses.

In some myths, Demeter in the form of a mare, was raped by Poseidon in the form of stallion and she gave birth to twins, a daughter, Despoine, and a horse, Arion (or Aerion).

 In Hindu mythology, the Ashvins were divine twin horsemen representing sunrise and sunset, and in a mirror image of the Castor and Pollux myth, they both fathered a set of twins on a single mother.  

The tale of Macha as you mentioned.  In addition in one of the divine birth stories of Cu Chulainn, his birth coincided with the birth of a twin pair of foals.  

 The Asvieniai are divine horse/twins in Lithuanian mythology.

It does make me wonder if Martin has hidden a set of "horse" twins in his story.

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For those familiar with my inversion theory, The Queenmaker chapter's parallel co-joins Lyanna with Ashara as the inversion to Myrcella and her handmaiden Rosamund. Myrcella represents the marriage contract between the throne and Dorne (south), while the parallel inversion to that was Lyanna's marriage contract with Robert Baratheon's future throne and the North. Myrcella and Rosamund trade places at Sunspear. Rosamund pretends to be Myrcella with fake red spots painted on her face to keep the maester and the rest of the household away, while a Lannister man dressed in Ser Arys's armor stands guard at the door. Ser Arys then sneaks the real Myrcella out of the castle and leads her to a well. My proposed parallel inversion would be to have Robert Baratheon sneak Lyanna out of the castle, or alternatively Lyanna is lured out of the castle by telling her that Robert wanted to talk to her. Now whether or not she had real red spots or not or whether maester Walys stayed away or was the one to lure her away, my interpretation suspects Jaime Lannister dressed in a replicate of Rhaegar's armor and led Lyanna to a well, which is symbolic for drowning or dying. Long story short, the co-joined horses are Lyanna and Ashara, because somehow these two women trade places, because further on in the chapter Darkstar attacks Myrcella and cuts off her ear and nearly half of her face. She survives the attack, but Dorne now has the problem of explaining her injuries to the throne. The parallel inversion would be that Lyanna is attacked, but does not survive, and the solution was to have Ashara pretend to be Lyanna until the throne can explain what happened to the North.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Since we know that GRRM studied Norse Mythology, including Eddas (Dreamsongs introduction), we don't have to worry how much Norse Myth references in ASOIAF are intentional. GRRM knows more about that stuff than 99,9% of humans.

Quote

Beneath the weeping Wall, Lady Melisandre raised her pale white hands. "We all must choose," she proclaimed. "Man or woman, young or old, lord or peasant, our choices are the same." Her voice made Jon Snow think of anise and nutmeg and cloves. She stood at the king's side on a wooden scaffold raised above the pit. "We choose light or we choose darkness. We choose good or we choose evil. We choose the true god or the false."

Mance Rayder's thick grey-brown hair blew about his face as he walked. He pushed it from his eyes with bound hands, smiling. But when he saw the cage, his courage failed him. The queen's men had made it from the trees of the haunted forest, from saplings and supple branches, pine boughs sticky with sap, and the bone-white fingers of the weirwoods. They'd bent them and twisted them around and through each other to weave a wooden lattice, then hung it high above a deep pit filled with logs, leaves, and kindling.

The wildling king recoiled from the sight. "No," he cried, "mercy. This is not right, I'm not the king, they—"

Ser Godry gave a pull on the rope. The King-Beyond-the-Wall had no choice but to stumble after him, the rope choking off his words. When he lost his feet, Godry dragged him the rest of the way. Mance was bloody when the queen's men half-shoved, half-carried him to the cage. A dozen men-at-arms heaved together to hoist him into the air.

Lady Melisandre watched him rise. "FREE FOLK! Here stands your king of lies. And here is the horn he promised would bring down the Wall." Two queen's men brought forth the Horn of Joramun, black and banded with old gold, eight feet long from end to end. Runes were carved into the golden bands, the writing of the First Men. Joramun had died thousands of years ago, but Mance had found his grave beneath a glacier, high up in the Frostfangs. And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth. Ygritte had told Jon that Mance never found the horn. She lied, or else Mance kept it secret even from his own.

A thousand captives watched through the wooden bars of their stockade as the horn was lifted high. All were ragged and half-starved. Wildlings, the Seven Kingdoms called them; they named themselves the free folk. They looked neither wild nor free—only hungry, frightened, numb.

"The Horn of Joramun?" Melisandre said. "No. Call it the Horn of Darkness. If the Wall falls, night falls as well, the long night that never ends. It must not happen, will not happen! The Lord of Light has seen his children in their peril and sent a champion to them, Azor Ahai reborn." She swept a hand toward Stannis, and the great ruby at her throat pulsed with light.

He is stone STAN MEANS STONE and she is flame. The king's eyes were blue bruises, sunk deep in a hollow face. He wore grey plate, a fur-trimmed cloak of cloth-of-gold flowing from his broad shoulders. His breastplate had a flaming heart inlaid above his own. Girding his brows was a red-gold crown with points like twisting flames. Val stood beside him, tall and fair. They had crowned her with a simple circlet of dark bronze, yet she looked more regal in bronze than Stannis did in gold. Her eyes were grey and fearless, unflinching. Beneath an ermine cloak, she wore white and gold. Her honey-blond hair had been done up in a thick braid that hung over her right shoulder to her waist. The chill in the air had put color in her cheeks.

Lady Melisandre wore no crown, but every man there knew that she was Stannis Baratheon's real queen, not the homely woman he had left to shiver at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea. Talk was, the king did not mean to send for Queen Selyse and their daughter until the Nightfort was ready for habitation. Jon felt sorry for them. The Wall offered few of the comforts that southron ladies and little highborn girls were used to, and the Nightfort offered none. That was a grim place, even at the best of times.

"FREE FOLK!" cried Melisandre. "Behold the fate of those who choose the darkness!"

The Horn of Joramun burst into flame.

It went up with a whoosh as swirling tongues of green and yellow fire leapt up crackling all along its length. Jon's garron shied nervously, and up and down the ranks others fought to still their mounts as well. A moan came from the stockade as the free folk saw their hope afire. A few began to shout and curse, but most lapsed into silence. For half a heartbeat the runes graven on the gold bands seemed to shimmer in the air. RING FROM LOTR? The queen's men gave a heave and sent the horn tumbling down into the fire pit.

Inside his cage, Mance Rayder clawed at the noose about his neck with bound hands and screamed incoherently of treachery and witchery, denying his kingship, denying his people, denying his name, denying all that he had ever been. He shrieked for mercy and cursed the red woman and began to laugh hysterically.

Jon watched unblinking. He dare not appear squeamish before his brothers. He had ordered out two hundred men, more than half the garrison of Castle Black. Mounted in solemn sable ranks with tall spears in hand, they had drawn up their hoods to shadow their faces … and hide the fact that so many were greybeards and green boys. The free folk feared the Watch. Jon wanted them to take that fear with them to their new homes south of the Wall.

The horn crashed amongst the logs and leaves and kindling. Within three heartbeats the whole pit was aflame. Clutching the bars of his cage with bound hands, Mance sobbed and begged. When the fire reached him he did a little dance. His screams became one long, wordless shriek of fear and pain. Within his cage, he fluttered like a burning leaf, a moth caught in a candle flame.

Jon found himself remembering a song.

Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done,

the Dornishman's taken my life,

But what does it matter, for all men must die,

and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!

Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. LOT'S WIFE She will not weep nor look away. Jon wondered what Ygritte would have done in her place. The women are the strong ones. He found himself thinking about Sam and Maester Aemon, about Gilly and the babe. She will curse me with her dying breath, but I saw no other way. Eastwatch reported savage storms upon the narrow sea. I meant to keep them safe. Did I feed them to the crabs instead? Last night he had dreamed of Sam drowning, of Ygritte dying with his arrow in her (it had not been his arrow, but in his dreams it always was), of Gilly weeping tears of blood.

Jon Snow had seen enough. "Now," he said.

Ulmer of the Kingswood jammed his spear into the ground, unslung his bow, and slipped a black arrow from his quiver. Sweet Donnel Hill threw back his hood to do the same. Garth Greyfeather and Bearded Ben nocked shafts, bent their bows, loosed.

One arrow took Mance Rayder in the chest, one in the gut, one in the throat. The fourth struck one of the cage's wooden bars, and quivered for an instant before catching fire. A woman's sobs echoed off the Wall as the wildling king slid bonelessly to the floor of his cage, wreathed in fire. "And now his Watch is done," Jon murmured softly. Mance Rayder had been a man of the Night's Watch once, before he changed his black cloak for one slashed with bright red silk.

Up on the platform, Stannis was scowling. Jon refused to meet his eyes. The bottom had fallen out of the wooden cage, and its bars were crumbling. Every time the fire licked upward, more branches tumbled free, cherry red and black. "The Lord of Light made the sun and moon and stars to light our way, and gave us fire to keep the night at bay," Melisandre told the wildlings. "None can withstand his flames."

 "None can withstand his flames," the queen's men echoed.

The red woman's robes of deep-dyed scarlet swirled about her, and her coppery hair made a halo round her face. Tall yellow flames danced from her fingertips like claws. "FREE FOLK! Your false gods cannot help you. Your false horn did not save you. Your false king brought you only death, despair, defeat … but here stands the true king. BEHOLD HIS GLORY!"

Stannis Baratheon drew Lightbringer.

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before … but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice. Is this the power of king's blood?

"Westeros has but one king," said Stannis. His voice rang harsh, with none of Melisandre's music. "With this sword I defend my subjects and destroy those who menace them. Bend the knee, and I promise you food, land, and justice. Kneel and live. Or go and die. The choice is yours." He slipped Lightbringer into its scabbard, and the world darkened once again, as if the sun had gone behind a cloud. "Open the gates."

"OPEN THE GATES," bellowed Ser Clayton Suggs, in a voice as deep as a warhorn. "OPEN THE GATES," echoed Ser Corliss Penny, commanding the guards. "OPEN THE GATES," cried the serjeants. Men scrambled to obey. Sharpened stakes were wrenched from the ground, planks were dropped across deep ditches, and the stockade gates were thrown wide. Jon Snow raised his hand and lowered it, and his black ranks parted right and left, clearing a path to the Wall, where Dolorous Edd Tollett pushed open the iron gate.

"Come," urged Melisandre. "Come to the light … or run back to the darkness." In the pit below her, the fire was crackling. "If you choose life, come to me."

And they came. Slowly at first, some limping or leaning on their fellows, the captives began to emerge from their rough-hewn pen. If you would eat, come to me, Jon thought. If you would not freeze or starve, submit. Hesitant, wary of some trap, the first few prisoners edged across the planks and through the ring of the stakes, toward Melisandre and the Wall. More followed, when they saw that no harm had come to those who went before. Then more, until it was a steady stream. Queen's men in studded jacks and halfhelms handed each passing man, woman, or child a piece of white weirwood: a stick, a splintered branch as pale as broken bone, a spray of blood-red leaves. A piece of the old gods to feed the new. Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand

The heat from the fire pit was palpable even at a distance; for the wildlings, it had to be blistering. He saw men cringing as they neared the flames, heard children cry. A few turned for the forest. He watched a young woman stumble away with a child on either hand. Every few steps she looked back to make certain no one was coming after them, and when she neared the trees she broke into a run. One greybeard took the weirwood branch they handed him and used it as a weapon, laying about with it until the queen's men converged on him with spears. The others had to step around his body, until Ser Corliss had it thrown in the fire. More of the free folk chose the woods after that—one in ten, perhaps.

But most came on. Behind them was only cold and death. Ahead was hope. They came on, clutching their scraps of wood until the time came to feed them to the flames. R'hllor was a jealous deity, ever hungry. So the new god devoured the corpse of the old, and cast gigantic shadows of Stannis and Melisandre upon the Wall, black against the ruddy red reflections on the ice.

Sigorn was the first to kneel before the king. The new Magnar of Thenn was a younger, shorter version of his father—lean, balding, clad in bronze greaves and a leather shirt sewn with bronze scales. Next came Rattleshirt in clattering armor made of bones and boiled leather, his helm a giant's skull. Under the bones lurked a ruined and wretched creature with cracked brown teeth and a yellow tinge to the whites of his eyes. A small, malicious, treacherous man, as stupid as he is cruel. Jon did not believe for a moment that he would keep faith. He wondered what Val was feeling as she watched him kneel, forgiven.

Lesser leaders followed. Two clan chiefs of the Hornfoot men, whose feet were black and hard. An old wisewoman revered by the peoples of the Milkwater. A scrawny dark-eyed boy of two-and-ten, the son of Alfyn Crowkiller. Halleck, brother to Harma Dogshead, with her pigs. Each took a knee before the king.

It is too cold for this mummer's show, thought Jon. "The free folk despise kneelers," he had warned Stannis. "Let them keep their pride, and they will love you better." His Grace would not listen. He said, "It is swords I need from them, not kisses."

Having knelt, the wildlings shuffled past the ranks of the black brothers to the gate. Jon had detailed Horse and Satin and half a dozen others to lead them through the Wall with torches. On the far side, bowls of hot onion soup awaited them, and chunks of black bread and sausage. Clothes as well: cloaks, breeches, boots, tunics, good leather gloves. They would sleep on piles of clean straw, with fires blazing to keep the chill of night at bay. This king was nothing if not methodical. Soon or late, however, Tormund Giantsbane would assault the Wall again, and when that hour came Jon wondered whose side Stannis's new-made subjects would choose. You can give them land and mercy, but the free folk choose their own kings, and it was Mance they chose, not you.

Bowen Marsh edged his mount up next to Jon's. "This is a day I never thought to see." The Lord Steward had thinned notably since suffering a head wound at the Bridge of Skulls. Part of one ear was gone. He no longer looks much like a pomegranate, Jon thought. Marsh said, "We bled to stop the wildlings at the Gorge. Good men were slain there, friends and brothers. For what?

"The realm will curse us all for this," declared Ser Alliser Thorne in a venomous tone. "Every honest man in Westeros will turn his head and spit at the mention of the Night's Watch."

What would you know of honest men? "Quiet in the ranks." Ser Alliser had grown more circumspect since Lord Janos had lost his head, but the malice was still there. Jon had toyed with the idea of giving him the command Slynt had refused, but he wanted the man close. He was always the more dangerous of the two. Instead he had dispatched a grizzled steward from the Shadow Tower to take command at Greyguard.

He hoped the two new garrisons would make a difference. The Watch can make the free folk bleed, but in the end we cannot hope to stop them. Giving Mance Rayder to the fire did not change the truth of that. We are still too few and they are still too many, and without rangers, we're good as blind. I have to send men out. But if I do, will they come back again?

 

So:

This scene is beginning of Ragnarok. Breaking of Bifrost. 

Quote

 

In Norse mythology, Bifröst (Listeni/ˈbɪvrɒst/[1] or sometimes Bilröst or Bivrost) is a burning rainbow bridge that reaches between Midgard (Earth) and Asgard, the realm of the gods. The bridge is attested as Bilröst in the Poetic Edda; compiled in the 13th century from earlier traditional sources, and as Bifröst in the Prose Edda; written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson, and in the poetry of skalds. Both the Poetic Edda and the Prose Edda alternately refer to the bridge as Ásbrú (Old Norse "Æsir's bridge").[2]

According to the Prose Edda, the bridge ends in heaven at Himinbjörg, the residence of the god Heimdallr, who guards it from the jötnar. The bridge's destruction during Ragnarök by the forces of Muspell is foretold. Scholars have proposed that the bridge may have originally represented the Milky Way and have noted parallels between the bridge and another bridge in Norse mythology, Gjallarbrú.

Scholar Andy Orchard posits that Bifröst may mean "shimmering path." He notes that the first element of Bilröstbil (meaning "a moment")—"suggests the fleeting nature of the rainbow," which he connects to the first element of Bifröst—the Old Norse verb bifa (meaning "to shimmer" or "to shake")—noting that the element evokes notions of the "lustrous sheen" of the bridge.[3] Austrian Germanist Rudolf Simek says that Bifröst either means "the swaying road to heaven" (also citing bifa) or, if Bilröst is the original form of the two (which Simek says is likely), "the fleetingly glimpsed rainbow" (possibly connected to bil, perhaps meaning "moment, weak point").[4]

The bridge is mentioned in the Prose Edda books Gylfaginning and Skáldskaparmál, where it is referred to as Bifröst. In chapter 13 of Gylfaginning, Gangleri (King Gylfi in disguise) asks the enthroned figure of High what way exists between heaven and earth. Laughing, High replies that the question isn't an intelligent one, and goes on to explain that the gods built a bridge from heaven and earth. He incredulously asks Gangleri if he has not heard the story before. High says that Gangleri must have seen it, and notes that Gangleri may call it a rainbow. High says that the bridge consists of three colors, has great strength, "and is built with art and skill to a greater extent than other constructions."[9]

High notes that, although the bridge is strong, it will break when "Muspell's lads" attempt to cross it, and their horses will have to make do with swimming over "great rivers." Gangleri says that it doesn't seem that the gods "built the bridge in good faith if it is liable to break, considering that they can do as they please." High responds that the gods do not deserve blame for the breaking of the bridge, for "there is nothing in this world that will be secure when Muspell's sons attack."[9]

In chapter 15 of Gylfaginning, Just-As-High says that Bifröst is also called Asbrú, and that every day the gods ride their horses across it (with the exception of Thor, who instead wades through the boiling waters of the rivers Körmt and Örmt) to reach Urðarbrunnr, a holy well where the gods have their court. As a reference, Just-As-High quotes the second of the two stanzas in Grímnismál that mention the bridge (see above). Gangleri asks if fire burns over Bifröst. High says that the red in the bridge is burning fire, and, without it, the frost jotnar and mountain jotnar would "go up into heaven" if anyone who wanted could cross Bifröst. High adds that, in heaven, "there are many beautiful places" and that "everywhere there has divine protection around it."[10]

In chapter 17, High tells Gangleri that the location of Himinbjörg "stands at the edge of heaven where Bifrost reaches heaven."[11] While describing the god Heimdallr in chapter 27, High says that Heimdallr lives in Himinbjörg by Bifröst, and guards the bridge from mountain jotnar while sitting at the edge of heaven.[12] In chapter 34, High quotes the first of the two Grímnismál stanzas that mention the bridge.[13] In chapter 51, High foretells the events of Ragnarök. High says that, during Ragnarök, the sky will split open, and from the split will ride forth the "sons of Muspell". When the "sons of Muspell" ride over Bifröst it will break, "as was said above."[14]

In the Prose Edda book Skáldskaparmál, the bridge receives a single mention. In chapter 16, a work by the 10th century skald Úlfr Uggason is provided, where Bifröst is referred to as "the powers' way."

 

 

 

 

That 'Horn of Joramun' = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjallarhornthe horn of Hiemdallr

Wall =Bifrost

Stannis plays role of Surtr here, while Lightbringer is his flaming sword.

Quote

Surtr is mentioned twice in the poem Völuspá, where a völva divulges information to the god Odin. The völva says that, during Ragnarök, Surtr will come from the south with flames, carrying a very bright sword:

Old Norse:

Sutr ferr sunnan
með sviga lævi:
skinn af sverði
sól valtiva.[3]

English:

Surtr moves from the south
with the scathe of branches:
there shines from his sword
the sun of Gods of the Slain.[3]

Following this, the völva says that "stone peaks clash", "troll wives take to the road", "warriors tread the path from Hel", and the heavens "break apart". The next stanza relates that Odin is to be killed by the wolf Fenrir, and that Surtr will go to battle against "Beli's bane", a kenning for the god Freyr, who slew the giant Beli. No further detail is given about the fight between Surtr and Freyr in the poem. In the stanzas that follow, a number of gods and their opponents are described as doing battle at Ragnarök, and that the world will be consumed in flames, yet afterward a new world rises from the sea, fertile and teeming with life, and the surviving gods will meet again.[4]

In the poem Vafþrúðnismál, the wise jötunn Vafþrúðnir poses the question to Odin (disguised as "Gagnráðr") "what the plain is called where in battle Surt and the sweet gods will meet". Odin responds that the "ordained field" is Vígríðr, and that it stretches "a hundred leagues" in every direction.[5] Later in the poem, Odin, still disguised and now questioning Vafþrúðnir, asks which of the Æsir will "rule over the possessions of the gods when Surt's fire is slaked". Vafþrúðnir responds that, "when Surt's fire is slaked" the god Thor's sons Móði and Magni shall possess Thor's hammer Mjöllnir.[6]

In the poem Fáfnismál, the hero Sigurd asks the mortally wounded dragon Fáfnir the name of the island where Surtr and the Æsir "will mingle sword-liquid together". Fáfnir says that the island is called Óskópnir, that all of the gods shall go there bearing spears, and that on their way there the bridge Bifröst will break beneath them, causing their horses to "flounder in the great river".[7] The late Eddic poem Fjölsvinnsmál, stanza 24, contains the line "Surtur sinn mautu" or "surtur sinn mantu" according to the best manuscripts.[8] The last two words, which are otherwise without meaning, are sometimes emended to "Sinmöru" and the entire phrase is taken to mean that Surtr has a female companion named Sinmara.[9] Based on the same passage, Lee Hollander tentatively identifies Sinmara as Surt's wife, stating that she is "unknown elsewhere."[10]

Prose Edda[edit]


In chapter 51 of Gylfaginning, High describes the events of Ragnarök. High says that "amid this turmoil the sky will open and from it will ride the sons of Muspell. Surtr will ride in front, and both before and behind him there will be burning fire. His sword will be very fine. Light will shine from it more brightly than from the sun." High continues that when the sons of Múspell ride over the bridge Bifröst it will break, and that they will continue to the field of Vígríðr. The wolf Fenrir and the Midgard Serpent will also arrive there. By then, Loki will have arrived with "all of Hel's people", Hrym, and all of the frost jötnar; "but Muspell's sons will have their own battle array; it will be very bright". Further into the chapter, High describes that a fierce battle will erupt between these forces and the Æsir, and that during this, Surtr and Freyr will engage in battle "and there will be a harsh conflict before Freyr falls". High adds that the cause of Freyr's death will be that Freyr is lacking "the good sword" that he once gave his servant Skírnir.[13]In chapter 4 of the Prose Edda book Gylfaginning, the enthroned figure of Third tells Gangleri (described as King Gylfi in disguise) about the location of Múspell. Third says that the bright and flaming region of Múspell existed prior to Niflheim, and it is impassable to those not native to the region. To defend Múspell, Surtr is stationed at its frontier. Third adds that Surtr has a flaming sword, and that "at the end of the world he will go and wage war and defeat all the gods and burn the whole world with fire". The stanza from Völuspá that foretells Surtr moving from the south is then quoted.[11] In chapter 18, Gangleri asks what will protect the fair hall Gimlé "when Surtr's fire burns heaven and earth".[12]

As foretold by High further into chapter 51 Gylfaginning, Once Heimdallr and Loki fight (and mutually kill one another), Surtr "will fling fire over the earth burn the whole world". High quotes ten stanzas from Völuspá in support, and then proceeds to describe the rebirth and new fertility of the reborn world, and the survivors of Ragnarök, including various gods and the two humans named Líf and Lífthrasir that will have hid from "Surtr's fire" in the wood Hoddmímis holt.[14]

In the Epilogue section of the book Skáldskaparmál, a euhemerized monologue states that "what they called Surt's fire was when Troy burned".[15] In chapter 2, a work by the skald Eyvindr skáldaspillir is quoted that mentions "Surt's deep vales", using the name Surtr as a common noun for a jötunn, with "deep vales" referring to the depths of the mountains (specifically Hnitbjorg).[16] In chapter 75, Surtr is included within a list of "very powerful" jötnar

 

Azor Ahai is no hero. He's responsibble for breaking of the moon. And soon will break the Wall as well.

'Surtr advances from the south, his sword brighter than the sun.' - we see similar wording in that Jon III chapter.

Stannis came to the Wall from the south and at that moment Lightbringer was abnormally bright.

Surtr is ice giant. And: we saw 'gigantic shadows of Stannis and Melisandre upon the Wall, black against the ruddy red reflections on the ice.'

I Maybe allowing the wildilings to pass through the Wall was 'breaking' of the Wall, with opening of the gates as destruction of Bifrost. (Bowen even mentions Bridge of Skulls just after speaking about the Wall). But I don't think so. Stannis will do something even worse... Maybe burn WF weirwood? Or weirwood at that isle at crofter's village? Who knows.

And to strenghten Stannis-Surtr (which makes him a Night's King figure as well as AA, as they might be the same persin), Surtr shall fight god Freyr...

And who is sent by Roose to deal with Stannis? Ser Aenys Frey... or should I cay: Aesir Freyr? (Aesir = some of Norse gods)

 

Surtr moves from the south
with the scathe of branches:
there shines from his sword
the sun of Gods of the Slain.
Stone peaks clash,
and troll wives take to the road.
Warriors tread the path from Hel,
and heaven breaks apart.
Then is fulfilled Hlín's
second sorrow,
when Óðinn goes
to fight with the wolf,
and Beli's slayer,
bright, against Surtr.
Then shall Frigg's
sweet friend fall. 
 
Völuspá 50–51, Dronke's translation
 
(quotes from Wikipedia and Jon III, ADWD)
 
 
 
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I think I know where GRRM got all his Norse Mythology knowledge.

From Dreamsongs, Volume I, GRRM about his college:

  

Quote

My major was journalism, but I took a minor in history. My sophomore year I signed up for the History of Scandinavia, thinking it would be cool to study Vikings. Professor Franklin D. Scott was an enthusiastic teacher who invited the class to his home for Scandinavian food and glug (a mulled wine with raisins and nuts floating in it). We read Norse sagas, Icelandic eddas, and the poems of the Finnish patriotic poet Johan Ludvig Runeberg. I loved the sagas and the eddas, which reminded me of Tolkien and Howard, and was much taken with Runeberg’s poem “Sveaborg,” a rousing lament for the great Helsinki fortress “Gibraltar of the North,” which surrendered inexplicably during the Russo-Swedish War of 1808. When it came time to write term papers, I chose “Sveaborg” for my topic. Then I had an off-the-wall idea. I asked Professor Scott if he would allow me to submit a story about “Sveaborg” rather than a conventional paper. To my delight, he agreed. “The Fortress” got me an A … but more than that, Professor Scott was so pleased with the story that he sent it off to The American-Scandinavian Review for possible publication.

The first rejection letter I ever received was not from Damon Knight, nor Frederik Pohl, nor John Wood Campbell, Jr., but from Erik J. Friis, editor of The American-Scandinavian Review, who regretted “very much” having to return “The Fortress” to me. “It is a very good article,” he wrote in a letter dated June 14, 1968, “but unfortunately too long for our purpose.

 

So he studied Norse sagas... Let no one tell you he doesn't know them. He probably knows more about Norse (and not only) mythology than all of us here combined and 99,9% of humans. But here we have definite proof that it's certainly possible that there are deep and hidden references to Norse M. in ASOIAF. And GRRM probably uses a lot of symbolism and many metaphors based on it.

Hmm... Origins of Mormont's spiced wine...

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55 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

I think I know where GRRM got all his Norse Mythology knowledge.

From Dreamsongs, Volume I, GRRM about his college:

  

 

So he studied Norse sagas... Let no one tell you he doesn't know them. He probably knows more about Norse (and not only) mythology than all of us here combined and 99,9% of humans. But here we have definite proof that it's certainly possible that there are deep and hidden references to Norse M. in ASOIAF. And GRRM probably uses a lot of symbolism and many metaphors based on it.

Hmm... Origins of Mormont's spiced wine...

Absolutely! There is even an interview or two where gen talks about the use. 

The Sveaborg story became Under Seige, if I remember correctly. 

Actually, I am going to tag @Lord Varys on this because he was not sure George even knew much about Norse mythology.  

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1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Absolutely! There is even an interview or two where gen talks about the use. 

The Sveaborg story became Under Seige, if I remember correctly. 

 I just wanted to make it clear, as there are many people here who dismiss any posibility of Norse Myth symbolism and references in ASOIAF. As 'GRRM is an American and he doesn't even know what it is'... Well than... It's hard to ignore this evidence.

@The Fattest Leech Sveaborg story is entitled 'Fortress' and it's historical fiction. Under Siege is based on it, but contains more... Fantastical elements.

They're both worth reading.

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18 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

 I just wanted to make it clear, as there are many people here who dismiss any posibility of Norse Myth symbolism and references in ASOIAF. As 'GRRM is an American and he doesn't even know what it is'... Well than... It's hard to ignore this evidence.

@The Fattest Leech Sveaborg story is entitled 'Fortress' and it's historical fiction. Under Siege is based on it, but contains more... Fantastical elements.

They're both worth reading.

Oh yeah, I agree that many doubt GRRM's knowledge about many things. No doubt! 

Ok. I've read Under Seige, but hadn't gotten around yet to Fortress. Thanks for letting me know because I just re-read Under Seige last week and was deciding which older stories next. Fortress it is!!!

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20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@The Fattest Leech

That is good to know. I should get around to read 'Dreamsongs'...

However, it is one thing to read sagas and other Nordic stories and quite another to delve deeply in theoretical texts about them.

Yes. But in another thread you told me very clearly that you doubt George would know much about Norse mythology. That was the point and I just wanted to share this with you. ;) So this, along with the interviews I shared with you, should help put you at ease. 

And do read Dreamsongs. I highly recommend it. 

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9 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yes. But in another thread you told me very clearly that you doubt George would know much about Norse mythology. That was the point and I just wanted to share this with you. ;) So this, along with the interviews I shared with you, should help put you at ease. 

And do read Dreamsongs. I highly recommend it. 

Indeed, I had doubts. But I did my research and found evidence I needed.

In that post I was speaking more generally - sometimes those supposed finds are very weak and improbable. And offer no evidence or justification.

Edit: Oh...  You were talking to Lord Varys there.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@The Fattest Leech

That is good to know. I should get around to read 'Dreamsongs'...

However, it is one thing to read sagas and other Nordic stories and quite another to delve deeply in theoretical texts about them.

Yes. But in another thread you told me very clearly that you doubt George would know much about Norse mythology. That was the point and I just wanted to share this with you. ;) So this, along with the interviews I shared with you, should help out you at ease. 

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15 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Indeed, I had doubts. But I did my research and found evidence I needed.

In that post I was speaking more generally - sometimes those supposed finds are very weak and improbable. And offer no evidence or justification.

Edit: Oh...  You were talking to Lord Varys there.

 

 

No problem. I'm on my phone and the quoter is going to mud  

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16 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yes. But in another thread you told me very clearly that you doubt George would know much about Norse mythology. That was the point and I just wanted to share this with you. ;) So this, along with the interviews I shared with you, should help out you at ease. 

This whole series basically takes a core story using ideas that Martin has repeatedly gone back to in his science fiction series.  He then creates his massive world with retellings/homages/inversions/subversions of

1.  mythologies as wide reaching as Celtic-Norse-Greek-Judeo Christian-Egyptian-Arabian-Native American-Hindu-Slavic-Mesopotamian and probably others I'm really unfamiliar with

2. The core origins of fairy tales/folk lore

3.  A wide range of literature, (and not only from the fantasy genre)

4. History.

 

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56 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

This whole series basically takes a core story using ideas that Martin has repeatedly gone back to in his science fiction series.  He then creates his massive world with retellings/homages/inversions/subversions of

1.  mythologies as wide reaching as Celtic-Norse-Greek-Judeo Christian-Egyptian-Arabian-Native American-Hindu-Slavic-Mesopotamian and probably others I'm really unfamiliar with

2. The core origins of fairy tales/folk lore

3.  A wide range of literature, (and not only from the fantasy genre)

4. History.

 

I agree. It isn't fun to decode which witch is which? George has talked about this in interviews as well. Hadrians Wall, War of Roses, myths, all sorts of inspiration he takes and makes his own. The more I read and re-read George's older stories, the more you can see he reuses  his is own themes as well 

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