The Amber Compendium of Norse Myth: Chapter I, Yggdrasil

[LmL]

3 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

At least the whitewashing isn't as original as I thought it was. Good to know 

Yes, if people would show me stuff like this at the beginning, I would be much quicker to get on board with wacky ideas like whitewashing. Chuckle chuckle. That's sad, this pretty much confirms that doesn't not? If Yggdrasil is whitewashed, then we have a very solid anchor for that entire line of symbolism.

I actually disagree that George is avoiding the double meaning of whitewashing however - if we think about suppressing the dark impulses of the weirwood net, whitewashing it in other words - well that's where we get the others from isn't it? The repressed Shadow consciousness of the weirwood net

[ravenous reader]

24 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

I'm looking at various appearances of blackberry in myths, and this one is quite funny:

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(From Wikipedia: Cornish Mythology)

Old Michaelmas Day falls on 11 October (10 October according to some sources). According to an old legend, blackberries should not be picked after this date. This is because, so British folklore goes, Satan was banished from Heaven on this day, fell into a blackberry bush and cursed the brambles as he fell into them. In Cornwall, a similar legend prevails, according to which the devil urinated on them.

(...)

According to some traditions, blackberry's deep purple color represents Christ's blood and the crown of thorns was made of brambles, although other thorny plants, such as Crataegus (hawthorn species) and Euphorbia milii (crown of thorns plant), have been proposed as the material for the crown.

Sounds a bit like 'black stone that fell from the heaven'...

That's funny, Niebieski -- it reminds me of that Seamus Heaney poem 'Blackberry-Picking' I dedicated to you when I was musing about the connection between 'berries and the broken world' -- lol; sometimes my intuition amazes even me!  

Also, if you've gorged yourself on blackberries -- aka the tainted fruits of the black meteor -- your lips will become bruised a dusky dark blue -- literally and figuratively 'stained' -- as if you'd partaken of too much 'Shade of the Evening', just like the warlocks and Euron our berry-guzzler of note and herald for a fallen/falling world.

[Bluetiger]

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From: Norse-MythologyOrg

It’s important to keep in mind that the image of Yggdrasil and the Well of Urd is a myth, and therefore portrays the perceived meaning or essence of something rather than merely describing the thing’s physical characteristics. Yggdrasil and the Well of Urd weren’t thought of as existing in a single physical location, but rather dwell within the invisible heart of anything and everything.

Fundamentally, this image expresses the indigenous Germanic perspective on the concepts of time and destiny.

As Paul Bauschatz points out in his landmark study The Well and the Tree: World and Time in Early Germanic Culture, Yggdrasil and the Well of Urd correspond to the two tenses of Germanic languages. Even modern English, a Germanic language, still has only two tenses: 1) the past tense, which includes events that are now over (“It rained”) as well as those that began in the past and are still happening (“It has been raining”), and 2) the present tense, which describes events that are currently happening (“It is raining”). Unlike Romance languages such as Spanish or French, for example, Germanic languages have no true future tense. Instead, they use certain verbs in the present tense to express something similar to futurity, such as “will” or “shall” (“I will go to the party” or “It shall rain”). Rather than “futurity,” however, what these verbs express could more accurately be called “intention” or “necessity.”

The Well of Urd corresponds to the past tense. It is the reservoir of completed or ongoing actions that nourish the tree and influence its growth. Yggdrasil, in turn, corresponds to the present tense, that which is being actualized here and now.

What of intention and necessity, then? This is the water that permeates the image, flowing up from the well into the tree, dripping from the leaves of the tree as dew, and returning to the well, where it then seeps back up into the tree.^[5]

Here, time is cyclical rather than linear. The present returns to the past, where it retroactively changes the past. The new past, in turn, is reabsorbed into a new present, whose originality is an outgrowth of the give-and-take between the waters of the well and the the waters of the tree.

This provides a framework within which we can understand the Germanic view of destiny. The residents of the Well of Urd, the Norns, design the earliest form of the destinies of all of the beings who live in the Nine Worlds of Yggdrasil, from humans to slugs to gods to giants. In contrast to the Greek concept of fate, however, all beings who are subject to destiny have some degree of agency in shaping their own destiny and the destinies of others – this is the dew that falls back into the well from the branches of the tree, accordingly reshaping the past and its influence upon the present. All beings do this passively; those who practice magic do it actively. (In fact, one could accurately say that, in the surviving accounts of the practice of magic in ancient Germanic societies, magic is viewed as being precisely the process of gaining a greater degree of control over destiny.) There is no absolutely free will, just as there is no absolutely unalterable fate; instead, life is lived somewhere between these two extremes. A fuller discussion of the ancient Germanic view of destiny can be found here.

Creation as an Ongoing Process

When we consider the elements of time and destiny together, we arrive at a fascinating and compelling model of the process of creation itself. While Norse mythology does contain a tale that can be considered a creation narrative, that tale only tells of the initial shaping of the cosmos. In the image of Yggdrasil and the Well of Urd, we find a continuation of this tale. Creation is an ongoing process in which everything, from a goddess to a speck of dirt, participates. In the well-known Christian model of creation, one being (God) made the world all by himself in a single act that occurred at some specific point in the past. As a result, all beings are nothing more than his “Creation,” defined and determined by his omnipotent will. By contrast, the Germanic model implicitly claims that we are all created creators, carrying forward the world’s ceaseless reinvention of itself. As the famous naturalist and conservationist John Muir wrote, “I used to envy the father of our race, dwelling as he did in contact with the new-made fields and plants of Eden; but I do so no more, because I have discovered that I also live in creation’s dawn.”^[6]

 

Sounds a bit like this quote from Bloodraven:

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"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."

"But," said Bran, "he heard me."

And:

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The dragon is time. It has no beginning and no ending, so all things come round again.

That's Norse Ourobros - the Serpent of Midgard, Jormungandr.

[Bluetiger]

12 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

That's funny, Niebieski -- it reminds me of that Seamus Heaney poem 'Blackberry-Picking' I dedicated to you when I was musing about the connection between 'berries and the broken world' -- lol; sometimes my intuition amazes even me!  

Also, if you've gorged yourself on blackberries -- aka the tainted fruits of the black meteor -- your lips will become bruised a dusky dark blue -- literally and figuratively 'stained' -- as if you'd partaken of too much 'Shade of the Evening', just like the warlocks and Euron our berry-guzzler of note and herald for a fallen/falling world.

Actually, I was lucky/unlucky enough to make my lips look like that last summer, while on holidays in the mountains... 

But, that's not so bad as the effect of blackberries on my poor Narmo's coat... A white dog, looking like Ghost... With purple and pink stains on his fur... Because in his amazing brilliance he decided there's no better place to lay down than hedge of blackberries...

This photo was taken few minutes before said accident

[ravenous reader]

Just now, Blue Tiger said:

Actually, I was lucky/unlucky enough to make my lips look like that last summer, while on holidays in the mountains... 

But, that's not so bad as the effect of blackberries on my poor Narmo's coat... A white dog, looking like Ghost... With purple and pink stains on his fur... Because in his amazing brilliance he decided there's no better place to lay down than hedge of blackberries...

This photo was taken few minutes before said accident

I almost thought you were going to say that your dog ended up with 'purple and pink' bruise-like stains because you had kissed him on his white fur with your vampirish Bluebeard's lips..!

What a gorgeous dog!  Does he also have blue eyes?  Maybe he's also one of our 'white lion children'!

[ravenous reader]

P.S.  What is his name -- in Polish; and what does it mean...(you know, the usual routine)

[Bluetiger]

11 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I almost thought you were going to say that your dog ended up with 'purple and pink' bruise-like stains because you had kissed him on his white fur with your vampirish Bluebeard's lips..!

What a gorgeous dog!  Does he also have blue eyes?  Maybe he's also one of our 'white lion children'!

They're... Hmmm... I'm terrible at eye colours... To this day I haven't decided whether mine are light grey or blue or light green... I'd say Narmo's are light brown, a bit golden (sth like COTF)

Narmo (ñarmo)  means 'wolf' in Tolkien's Quenya... White wolf turns purple... Jon is Dayne! (This alone has more textual evidence from the ASOIAF books than half of theories on this forum).

direwolves totally exist

[ravenous reader]

58 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

They're... Hmmm... I'm terrible at eye colours... To this day I haven't decided whether mine are light grey or blue or light green... I'd say Narmo's are light brown, a bit golden (sth like COTF)

Narmo (ñarmo)  means 'wolf' in Tolkien's Quenya... White wolf turns purple... Jon is Dayne! (This alone has more textual evidence from the ASOIAF books than half of theories on this forum).

direwolves totally exist

Aawh...So beautiful that picture, with his lion's beard and all!  He looks so noble in that shot, whereas in the other picture (pre-blackberry bramble romping) he had the countenance of a naughty greenseer, lol.

[sweetsunray]

11 hours ago, LmL said:

I actually disagree that George is avoiding the double meaning of whitewashing however - if we think about suppressing the dark impulses of the weirwood net, whitewashing it in other words - well that's where we get the others from isn't it? The repressed Shadow consciousness of the weirwood net

That avoiding of the double meaning whitewash has to do with the color of the WF pool (being black and note white) and Ned washing Ice with it. Ned is a conscientous man who's not making excuses for his actions and choices. He owns those choices. And having him clean Ice with white water would just be the wrong image.

The weirwood trees are still white though.

[The Fattest Leech]

18 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

Sounds a bit like this quote from Bloodraven:

And:

That's Norse Ourobros - the Serpent of Midgard, Jormungandr.

I have the book that this website is a big ad for. It's good and well worth a full read. My only issue with it is my text was printed slightly askew and it bugs the everloving Hel out of me 

[LmL]

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

That avoiding of the double meaning whitewash has to do with the color of the WF pool (being black and note white) and Ned washing Ice with it. Ned is a conscientous man who's not making excuses for his actions and choices. He owns those choices. And having him clean Ice with white water would just be the wrong image.

The weirwood trees are still white though.

Sure I follow you. I guess I just meant he seems to be using that connotation of whitewash elsewhere. 

 

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, LmL said:

Sure I follow you. I guess I just meant he seems to be using that connotation of whitewash elsewhere. 

 

Yeah, he can.

[Bluetiger]

I'm proud to announce that The Amber Compendium will have its own blog

Translations of Mythical Astronomy will be published there as well, and if I decide to to mythology-focused ASOIAF re-read, it'll be also there.

[Voice]

On January 19, 2017 at 10:41 AM, ravenous reader said:

I was reading a few of @Voice's theories, including his idea that the central event which 'broke' the cycle and sent the seasons spinning out of whack was the duel between Ned Stark vs. Arthur Dayne.  He interprets this as a primal contest between the Stark (Star + Dark) representing the 'Night's King' line and Dayne (Day + Dawn) representing the 'Sword of the Morning'.  He asserts, when the Night felled the Day, it was a signal for the Others and Winter to return en force.  There is something to this theory, particularly as Voice points out the blue eyes of death exploding across the sky in a storm of petals appear for the first time in the very moment as Arthur dies, together with the ouroboros imagery of the beginning and ending conjoining (now it begins/ends) which seems significant.  What do you think about Ned and Arthur as Holly and Oak kings respectively?  Also, what puzzles me is why Arthur says 'now it begins' -- What is beginning from his perspective?  Whereas Ned says 'now it ends' -- perhaps that means the long summer is ending and Winter is Coming'!

 

 

Yup. You are seeing what I am seeing, my poetic friend. The ouroboros imagery is the tell in my opinion. Words are wind, and these winds speak of an ancient cycle re-beginning. The colors of the fever dream sky tell the story of delicate protocol, long forgotten. 

But, back to the ouroboros, I added quite bit of stuff in support of this idea in the comments of the Weirwood Ghost thread. I'll message you with a link when I find exactly where. Would be pretty off topic here.

 

On January 19, 2017 at 1:23 PM, LmL said:

So here's the interesting thing about that.  The King of Winter, as I have demonstrated, is a being of fire. And Ned has the black dragon sword, so that lines up (even if he didn't use it at the ToJ). But the KG, they represent Others - beings of ice. It's very clear - pale or white shadows, snowy or ghostly armor in the moonlight, KG are 'white swords', Others are milky white and sword-slim, etc. The Others' swords are called 'pale blades' while Dawn is a white sword made from a pale stone. Dawn is pale as milkglass, the Others bones are pale as milkglass. So while Voice may be right about Ned = NK / team darkness, and Arthur = SOTM / team daylight, the ice and fire alignments are the opposite of what you would expect, and thus I don't know if his conclusion makes sense. Arthur represents an Other, a white shadow with snowy armor and a pale sword of milkglass, so how does his defeat enable the Others? The King of Winter is a fiery dude (even if its 'frozen fire', it's still fire) who is king over winter, so his victory should actually represent a curtailing of winter.  Im not sure if that logic holds or if this event actually has anything to do with the Others, but what I am confident in is the fire associations of the KoW and the icy associations of the KG

 

As always I applaud your eye for detailed symbollism, parallel, and reverse-parallel @LmL. I'm not sure if you mean to suggest your personal interpretation is the absolute and only correct interpretation, but at times I can't help but wonder if you become a bit overly certain of the symbolism you see. 

It may be that Arthur represents a being made of Ice, and it may be that Ned represents a being made of Fire... but it may instead be that you have inversed your reasoning to the point of seeing opposites. Take it from someone who has been down that rabbit hole. LOL

Anyway, you may well be correct in your interps, but I think you should keep a healthy open-mindedness when it comes to conclusions that are, well, subjective. I don't think it is too crackpot to ask you to consider, just for the sake of argument, that Ned might represent a King of Winter, and that the Others are the true Kings of Winter, and that this is what House Stark's words might be recalling. And I don't think it is too far down the rabbit hole to, just for the sake of argument, consider that Arthur Dayne might represent the Sun, the Dawn, the Morning, the end of Winter and Long Nights. And lastly, I do not think it too illogical to suggest that Ned as a Winter King, ending the Morning and claiming the Dawn, just might have ushered the coming of winter's implacable blue eyes of death. 

To each his own of course, but at times it feels like you have blinders on and can only see your own brand of symbolism. I quite like your brand, as it happens, and have much respect for your eye for these things. But at times your tone seems overly certain, given that these are subjective and esoteric allegories.

So, two free coppers of constructive criticism from a fellow stargazer. 

[LmL]

13 hours ago, Voice said:

 

Yup. You are seeing what I am seeing, my poetic friend. The ouroboros imagery is the tell in my opinion. Words are wind, and these winds speak of an ancient cycle re-beginning. The colors of the fever dream sky tell the story of delicate protocol, long forgotten. 

But, back to the ouroboros, I added quite bit of stuff in support of this idea in the comments of the Weirwood Ghost thread. I'll message you with a link when I find exactly where. Would be pretty off topic here.

 

 

As always I applaud your eye for detailed symbollism, parallel, and reverse-parallel @LmL. I'm not sure if you mean to suggest your personal interpretation is the absolute and only correct interpretation, but at times I can't help but wonder if you become a bit overly certain of the symbolism you see. 

It may be that Arthur represents a being made of Ice, and it may be that Ned represents a being made of Fire... but it may instead be that you have inversed your reasoning to the point of seeing opposites. Take it from someone who has been down that rabbit hole. LOL

Anyway, you may well be correct in your interps, but I think you should keep a healthy open-mindedness when it comes to conclusions that are, well, subjective. I don't think it is too crackpot to ask you to consider, just for the sake of argument, that Ned might represent a King of Winter, and that the Others are the true Kings of Winter, and that this is what House Stark's words might be recalling. And I don't think it is too far down the rabbit hole to, just for the sake of argument, consider that Arthur Dayne might represent the Sun, the Dawn, the Morning, the end of Winter and Long Nights. And lastly, I do not think it too illogical to suggest that Ned as a Winter King, ending the Morning and claiming the Dawn, just might have ushered the coming of winter's implacable blue eyes of death. 

To each his own of course, but at times it feels like you have blinders on and can only see your own brand of symbolism. I quite like your brand, as it happens, and have much respect for your eye for these things. But at times your tone seems overly certain, given that these are subjective and esoteric allegories.

So, two free coppers of constructive criticism from a fellow stargazer. 

Sure, point taken, and you are correct to assume that I do not "mean to suggest (my) personal interpretation is the absolute and only correct interpretation." Of course not - you've heard me offer the requisite qualifications many times. However, if the only response yu have to my comments is to say that "well, maybe my interpretation is right, and yours isn't," you haven't really said anything about the points made and the books themselves. Of course either of us could be right or wrong - but let's actually discuss the merits of each other points instead of lecturing each other about being open minded? I responded to your points, and offered my analysis (or shorthand reference to my analysis) which cuts against your points.  I would be quite happy to discuss the merits of each other's positions with you if you are interested. And actually, I am well familiar with your position on this and have spent a lot of time considering it, so it's not like so new idea I am close minded about. You know that's not the case, because we've discussed all of this extensively. I've read and commented on all of your theories, and often refer people to them. 

Now, on the other hand, have you read my King of Winter analysis in my Sacred Order of Green Zombies series showing that he is a being of fire, and asserting that to the extent he is icy, that he is actually frozen fire? Have you considered my arguments about this? Likewise for my analysis of the Others and the KG. I haven't done an official write up on that, but I can't remember if we have discussed it. It is pretty overwhelming, I would not expect you to disagree with it. 

I think it's fascinating that someone with the morning / dawn symbolism of Arthur would also carry the Others symbolism of the KG.  That's worth discussing.   And btw, the morning / dawn symbolism of Arthur and Dawn and Dayne is NOT necessarily sun symbolism, as dawn goddesses are often seen as a distinct entity from the sun, and the Morningstar (which is where House Dayne and Dawn derive all of its symbolism) is in fact a herald for the sun, not the sun. And of course the Morningstar can also be the Evenstar, the herald of nightfall. And the thing about the Morningstar is that it's often seen as a competitor to the sun, trying to rise before the sun and light up the sky (Venus being the brightest star in the sky by far). The usurpation attempt fails, and Venus disappears as the sun rises, put its proper place by the true light.  The story of Lucifer trying to usurp God almighty is an example of this type of Morningstar fable. Point being, the dawn star is sometimes a herald of the sun, on the same team as it were, and other times, it's just the opposite. So, when we look at Arthur's snowy white Others symbolism which all KG bear, we might see this Dawn star as a potential usurper to the sun. 

Just an idea for consideration.

[Pain killer Jane]

On 1/19/2017 at 10:04 AM, ravenous reader said:

Good catch!  That sigil could be many things, including the whorls of a rose, the eye of a hurricane, or the interlocking spirals of a galaxy.  

It also ties in to @LmL's idea of the column of ash rising like a tree or flower.  Additionally, I've indicated the pun on 'rose' used as a noun vs. verb -- i.e. in the latter, sense of 'rose from the dead,' 'rose from the ashes', etc.

A cyclone is the name for a group scorpions. So if the cyclone in House Wylde stylistically looks like a galaxy, a rose, a plume of ash than it is ironic that a cyclone of scorpions was used to murder Lord Lyonel (total lion name by the way) Tyrell-whose house is a Golden Rose- at Sandstone. And the known fact that scorpions are poisonous links The Strangler (strangled by vines but in poison form) being used by House Tyrell to murder a Golden Lion. And since we suspect Garlen of the deed, then I can say that garlands and crown of thorns are poisonous. 

[Bluetiger]

@ravenous reader I've found yet another reference to moon-snatching wolves...

Shameless self-promotion incoming

And I managed to put both anemones and smokeberries in my on my blog's welcoming page.

[Frey family reunion]

50 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

A cyclone is the name for a group scorpions. So if the cyclone in House Wylde stylistically looks like a galaxy, a rose, a plume of ash than it is ironic that a cyclone of scorpions was used to murder Lord Lyonel (total lion name by the way) Tyrell-whose house is a Golden Rose- at Sandstone. And the known fact that scorpions are poisonous links The Strangler (strangled by vines but in poison form) being used by House Tyrell to murder a Golden Lion. And since we suspect Garlen of the deed, then I can say that garlands and crown of thorns are poisonous. 

I had never heard of a group of scorpions being called a cyclone before, so I tried to do a little research.  Apparently this was propagated by Walter O'Brien, a computer hacker whose nickname, was "Scorpion".  I don't know where he came up with it, but he is the only source I found to that name.  There is speculation he mistook "colony" of scorpions for cyclone of scorpions.

But I think a large group of scorpions is usually called a "bed" of scorpions.  Which ironically is where Lord Lionel was when he died.  And then we have the parallels with bed of roses and bed of scorpions.

But I do very much like the connection between Garlen the Gallant as a poisoner, and a poisonous garland of thorny flowers.

 

[Pain killer Jane]

10 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I had never heard of a group of scorpions being called a cyclone before, so I tried to do a little research.  Apparently this was propagated by Walter O'Brien, a computer hacker whose nickname, was "Scorpion".  I don't know where he came up with it, but he apparently is the only source I found to that name.  There is speculation he mistook "colony" of scorpions for cyclone of scorpions.

But I think a large group of scorpions is usually called a "bed" of scorpions.  Which ironically is where Lord Lionel was when he died.  And then we have the parallels with bed of roses and bed of scorpions.

But I do very much like the connection between Garlen the Gallant as a poisoner, and a poisonous garland of thorny flowers.

 

Yes you're right, my mistake. The Garlan thing wasn't mine, RR pointed out to me. And the bed makes sense like you pointed out and we have the connection of bed of roses and bed of blood. So we have a bed of scorpions, a golden rose, bed of roses and a bed of blood. I always had the feeling that perhaps the lion that AA used to temper his sword the first time was his father's heart or his brother if we are interpreting the symbolism correctly. Tyrion killing his Lion Father, brother killing brother, Richard(Rickard)  "the Lion heart" and King John.  

And you know "making your bed and laying in it" is akin to making your own grave. So I guess its another source for the death associations of the garland or crown of thorns. 

[Frey family reunion]

10 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

yes you're right my mistake. The Garlan thing wasn't mine, RR pointed out to me. And the bed makes sense like you pointed out and we have the connection of bed of roses and bed of blood. So we have a bed of scorpions, a golden rose, bed of roses and a bed of blood. I always had the feeling that perhaps the lion that AA used to temper his sword the first time was his father's heart or his brother if we are interpreting the symbolism correctly. Tyrion killing his Lion Father, brother killing brother, Richard "the Lion heart" and King John.  

Interestingly enough, GRRM often (well at least twice) misuses collective names for two of his favorite animals.  He has referenced a murder of ravens, when in fact as far as I can tell, it is a murder of crows, not ravens.  And an unkindness of crows, when it should be an unkindness of ravens, not crows.  

It seems an odd mistake for him, so I wonder if he is enjoying a private joke there.