An attempt at Symbolism in regards to a Black stone theory of mine.

[Macgregor of the North]

Warning, complete speculation my part here. I'm playing around with ideas that are part of a bigger theory I am trying to organise together. 

I will attempt a bash at Symbolism here. Although the books are awash with it, it isn't my strongest point although I do look out for it on my reads and see various instances.

In this exercise I attempt to see if something I suspect in the books is alluded to with Symbolism. 

First a TL;DR of a theory I have to lay the groundwork for what I am looking to attempt here.

I believe in the idea throughout the books that there was once a second moon in the sky of the magical sort. I believe there is truth in the Qartheen tale that the destruction of this moon heralded the first appearance of Dragons. Not that they poured forth from the moon (egg), but that pieces of this moon plummeted to earth, crashing into various locations and this set in motion (in one location) the first appearance of Dragons.

Two such locations where I think pieces of this moon rock fell are what I believe to be  Polar regions of (what people refer to as) "Planetos".

North: The Far North of the Lands of Always Winter, the Heart of Winter. 

and

South: Asshai by the Shadow.

I have the idea that these lands are possibly magical locations in their own right, but when the pieces of magical moon rock crashed into them, they caused such magical upheaval that they set in motion the creation or evolution of the beings of Ice and Fire in our story. 

The Others, Ice and The Dragons, Fire. 

I think this Supernatural Cataclysm also set in motion the Long Night and disrupted the seasonal patterns we read of in the story. 

What I want to attempt to do here is find Symbolic evidence of something I suspect to be (possibly) true in the books. 

That a piece of or pieces of this magical black moon stone landed in the far North of the Lands of Always Winter, the Heart of Winter.

I think there is sufficient evidence in the books that point to Asshai being the place where Dragons originated, and also that Asshai has instances of black moon stone being present in its region. The city is possibly even made from it. 

While I personally think we can be sure that the Others came from and come from the Heart of Winter, what I have never heard of is any evidence that a piece of or pieces of magical black moon rock/stone can be found beyond the curtain of light in the Heart of Winter. 

Certainly Bran and Bloodraven haven't felt like giving any highly detailed descriptions of the area yet to help me out.

Wait though, these books are clever and sometimes GRRM hides things for us, or leaves clues, he foreshadows cleverly and he uses Symbolism for certain things. So here is my attempt to see if I can find evidence this way. 

I am wondering if Castle Black and it's scattered towers of stone etc. (the pieces of Black moon stone) which lie in the shadow of the Wall (the curtain of light) are the indicators I'm looking for that there is indeed a piece (Castle Black as a single unit) or pieces (the various stone towers) of this magical black moon stone/rock in the Heart of Winter just past the curtain of light (the Wall).

I'll bold certain standout words that relate to the topic. Obviously I'm looking for reference to the colour black, stone, the moon, the curtain of light... you get the idea. 

AGOT JON III:

"When they finally spied Castle Black, its timbered keeps and stone towers looked like nothing more than a handful of toy blocks scattered on the snow, beneath the vast wall of ice."

Here the stone towers of Castle Black are scattered around in the snow beneath the vast wall of ice which could be likened to the curtain of light. 

AGOT TYRION III:

"Then he was above the towers, still inching his way upward. Castle Black lay below him, etched in moonlight. You could see how stark and empty it was from up here; windowless keeps, crumbling walls, courtyards choked with broken stone."

Castle blacks towers here likened to broken stone, with a reference to the moon with moonlight being mentioned.

ASOS JON VI:

"As the stars began to fade in the eastern sky, the Wall appeared before him, rising above the trees and the morning mists. Moonlight glimmered pale against the ice. He urged the gelding on, following the muddy slick road until he saw the stone towers and timbered halls of Castle Black huddled like broken toys beneath the great cliff of ice."

More reference to the stone towers of Castle Black, moonlight and the cliff of Ice which could be possible reference to "curtain of light".

ADWD JON XIII:

"The Shieldhall was one of the older parts of Castle Black, a long drafty feast hall of dark stone, its oaken rafters black with the smoke of centuries."

A weaker one here perhaps but still has reference to Castle Black which is always in the shadow of the Wall (possible curtain of light) and also a direct instance of "dark stone". 

What you guys think, anything here could qualify as Symbolism for the idea I suggest or is it a wrong spy on my part?.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

Symbolism is a tricksy bird. Sometimes I feel like it is smacking me in the face because it is so obvious but other people don't seem to see it at all. Other times I don't see it at all but it seems very obvious to another person. 

To try and answer your question... I like your idea here with these quotes. I think it is possible they could symbolically support the idea of a black moon stone landing in the Land of Always Winter. The tough part for me is that the name of the castle is Castle Black and it's towers are made of stone. This makes symbolic references to a a black moon stone a little murky. But, as you allude to, maybe this is why it is named Castle Black and is made from stone. Also, as you noted, moon/moonlight is there as well. So you may be on to something. 

I also wanted to add this in reference to:

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

and

South: Asshai by the Shadow.

This quote from Bran's "coma dream" certainly supports this idea. Not so symbolically, but stil...

Quote

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

You probably already knew about this, but just in case I thought I would make sure.

[Macgregor of the North]

17 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Symbolism is a tricksy bird. Sometimes I feel like it is smacking me in the face because it is so obvious but other people don't seem to see it at all. Other times I don't see it at all but it seems very obvious to another person. 

To try and answer your question... I like your idea here with these quotes. I think it is possible they could symbolically support the idea of a black moon stone landing in the Land of Always Winter. The tough part for me is that the name of the castle is Castle Black and it's towers are made of stone. This makes symbolic references to a a black moon stone a little murky. But, as you allude to, maybe this is why it is named Castle Black and is made from stone. Also, as you noted, moon/moonlight is there as well. So you may be on to something. 

I also wanted to add this in reference to:

This quote from Bran's "coma dream" certainly supports this idea. Not so symbolically, but stil...

You probably already knew about this, but just in case I thought I would make sure.

Hey cheers for commenting, 

yup a tricksy bird it is indeed. 

On the Bran quote you left, this is where I first noticed a couple things. 

It is the furthest part Bran drifts to in that direction and when it tells us Dragons "stirred beneath the sunrise",  that (to me at least) seems like it speaks of an awakening, kind of like their first coming forth into the world, stirring, and the sun rising and all that. Not necessarily that he witnessed the birth of Dragons at that moment but that the text inspires that idea in my head in its description.

Also, if I go by my theory that a black moon stone fell to Asshai and this set in motion the evolution/creation of Dragons, it stands to reason that a similar thing may have happened in its polar opposite, the Heart of Winter, where the "Ice" to the Dragons "Fire" originate from, the Others (in my opinion).

And Bran sort of highlights that the areas are the polar opposites because when he reaches Asshai where the Dragons stir, he then drifts to the other end of the world, the other polar region, the Heart of Winter. 

So in regards to some sort of balance I am searching for a similarity between the creation/evolution of these two beings of Ice and Fire, the Others and the Dragons.

This is what triggered my search that there may be evidence of black moon stone in Asshai's polar opposite, the Heart of Winter. And I turned to Symbolism.

Incase your wondering, I do think the Cotf are involved somewhere in the Others creation.

I have a feeling they pulled of one of the biggest blood sacrifices of all time which upset the very balance of the skies atmosphere and possibly sent a Comet hurtling into the second moon and its pieces rained down on "earth". 

Its a hefty theory to try and piece together but I feel there may be something to it and I'll happily pursue it while I think it has legs. 

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

It seems like the oily black stone was important in the genetic experiments that the ancient blood sorcerors performed in TWoIaF. If these early blood sorcerors created Valyrians by infusing humans with dragon genes, then it's possible the Others are humans infused with ice dragon genes. In which case, there's a good possibility there'd need to be oily black stone in the far north to do so.

Unfortunately, I have no symbolism to contribute, just baseless speculation.

[Macgregor of the North]

2 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

It seems like the oily black stone was important in the genetic experiments that the ancient blood sorcerors performed in TWoIaF. If these early blood sorcerors created Valyrians by infusing humans with dragon genes, then it's possible the Others are humans infused with ice dragon genes. In which case, there's a good possibility there'd need to be oily black stone in the far north to do so.

Unfortunately, I have no symbolism to contribute, just baseless speculation.

Yes there could be some kind of genetic experiments in history that was powered by the stone, there is talk that Dragons were created using Wyvern stock, so maybe the magical upheaval caused by the stone falling to Asshai kickstarted the evolution of Wyverns and such like and Dragons were created from this first species? Speculating heavily of course. 

Ive also played with the idea the Others were possibly an ancient tribe of first men who lived in the far far North of the Lands of Always Winter and the stones energy corrupted them to become the Others. This is largely due to this tidbit from the WOIAF:

"Archmaester Fomas's Lies of the Ancients—though little regarded these days for its erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands—does speculate that the Others of legend were nothing more than a tribe of the First Men, ancestors of the wildlings, that had established itself in the far north. Because of the Long Night, these early wildlings were then pressured to begin a wave of conquests to the south. That they became monstrous in the tales told thereafter, according to Fomas, reflects the desire of the Night's Watch and the Starks to give themselves a more heroic identity as saviors of mankind, and not merely the beneficiaries of a struggle over dominion."

If I'm honest though, I don't really lean to the idea the Others are corrupted men. For some reason I think they are their own unique species, GRRM says "Inhuman, a different sort of life".

Im not totally sold they were men but can't rule it out. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

It is the furthest part Bran drifts to in that direction and when it tells us Dragons "stirred beneath the sunrise",  that (to me at least) seems like it speaks of an awakening, kind of like their first coming forth into the world, stirring, and the sun rising and all that. Not necessarily that he witnessed the birth of Dragons at that moment but that the text inspires that idea in my head in its description.

That is how I view it as well. I think it is how George wants us to view it. I actually think it could be the actual birthing of dragons. 

Something else I noticed from Bran's "coma dream" which you may support your idea.

Quote

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Notice how Bran goes straight from Asshai to the wall. Not exactly very efficient (logistically speaking). To be fair, he did already cover some of the in between ground on his way to Asshai. But he does go straight from Asshai to the wall, then beyond. Is he going from the dragons "birthplace" to the Others "birthplace"? I think it's possible. 

[Macgregor of the North]

52 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

That is how I view it as well. I think it is how George wants us to view it. I actually think it could be the actual birthing of dragons. 

Something else I noticed from Bran's "coma dream" which you may support your idea.

Notice how Bran goes straight from Asshai to the wall. Not exactly very efficient (logistically speaking). To be fair, he did already cover some of the in between ground on his way to Asshai. But he does go straight from Asshai to the wall, then beyond. Is he going from the dragons "birthplace" to the Others "birthplace"? I think it's possible. 

Yup I'm in agreement there. We're on the same page quite a bit here. 

I think that the creation of the Dragons and the Others was possibly at the same time, or more like from the same event/disaster/magical cataclysm, like a balance of sorts, but it's out of balance now if you get my meaning. 

I cant see the logic of the Dragons being around for years before the Others or vice Versa. 

I think that Brans vision with how it flits between the two polar regions is highlighting the two areas these threats originate from. 

And they are a threat, both of them. Dragons aint the solution to the problem, these beings of Ice and Fire are both hazardous. Two devastating forces from each side of the spectrum, created or evolved through some magical happening of sorts in each Polar region. 

And my nose is telling me to sniff in the direction of Black moon stone being at the heart of it. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

And Bran sort of highlights that the areas are the polar opposites because when he reaches Asshai where the Dragons stir,

Supporting this.... I did a search of "Asshai" on the search website. This is the first mention:

Quote

"Dragon's eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai," said Magister Illyrio. "The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty."

This is the next mention from Bran's "coma dream":

Quote

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

So the first two mentions of Asshai relate to the birth of dragons, in order. 

First, we get Asshai relating to dragon eggs. Then dragons stir beneath a sunrise, perhaps representing their birth, or hatching. Very interesting. 

To me, it seems as though George could be hinting at Asshai being the birthplace of dragons.

[Macgregor of the North]

16 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Supporting this.... I did a search of "Asshai" on the search website. This is the first mention:

This is the next mention from Bran's "coma dream":

So the first two mentions of Asshai relate to the birth of dragons, in order. 

First, we get Asshai relating to dragon eggs. Then dragons stir beneath a sunrise, perhaps representing their birth, or hatching. Very interesting. 

To me, it seems as though George could be hinting at Asshai being the birthplace of dragons.

I'm almost certain in my own personal view that Dragons and such creatures as Wyverns etc originated in Asshai. 

I still have obscene amounts of work to do pulling together all the quotes etc to try and back up my theory as a whole piece of work.. 

The Black stone being present in the Heart of Winter though, that may require searching for more possible symbolic clues, or waiting for the next book/s. 

Hey ho, there's plenty more to theorise over and chat about in the meantime.

[direpupy]

On 13-1-2017 at 4:58 PM, Macgregor of the North said:

I believe in the idea throughout the books that there was once a second moon in the sky of the magical sort. I believe there is truth in the Qartheen tale that the destruction of this moon heralded the first appearance of Dragons. Not that they poured forth from the moon (egg), but that pieces of this moon plummeted to earth, crashing into various locations and this set in motion (in one location) the first appearance of Dragons.

Two such locations where I think pieces of this moon rock fell are what I believe to be  Polar regions of (what people refer to as) "Planetos".

North: The Far North of the Lands of Always Winter, the Heart of Winter. 

and

South: Asshai by the Shadow.

 

Just a thought but if what you say turns out to be true, would the current polar regions have been the poles before the stone landed there or did they become the poles after the disaster?

Magic combined with a polar shift would go a long way to explain the strange long seasons.

[Macgregor of the North]

3 hours ago, direpupy said:

Just a thought but if what you say turns out to be true, would the current polar regions have been the poles before the stone landed there or did they become the poles after the disaster?

Magic combined with a polar shift would go a long way to explain the strange long seasons.

I must admit I haven't really thought of that angle, I guess I have always just envisioned the lands always being where they are now but now that you mention it, its worth pondering isn't it. 

I wonder what GRRM would say to that question, did the magical event that caused the Long Night and wonky seasonal patterns also cause a polar shift?. Interesting to ponder. 

[Macgregor of the North]

@OtherFromAnotherMother

Saw this quote describing Moat Cailin from Reek. It's not so much the curtain Wall mention, even though that made me think of the curtain of light, it's the mention of "gods abandoned toys". This is a similar description to the other quotes I left in the OP.

I thought I'd include it anyway even though I'm fully aware there may be no connection at all. It's oily Black stone also which always helps. 

ADWD REEK II:

"Where once a mighty curtain wall had stood, only scattered stones remained, blocks of black basalt so large it must once have taken a hundred men to hoist them into place. Some had sunk so deep into the bog that only a corner showed; others lay strewn about like some god's abandoned toys, cracked and crumbling, spotted with lichen. Last night's rain had left the huge stones wet and glistening, and the morning sunlight made them look as if they were coated in some fine black oil."

[Macgregor of the North]

Since this thread is all about Symbolism I thought I'd share something else that i found very very interesting.

I had a double check and I'm quite sure not even LmL, who seems to have analysed this type of thing in great great detail, has noticed or included these references in regards to Symbolism explaining the second moon cracking from wandering too close to the sun and all that juicy stuff. So I will try my hand at bringing something new to the table. Apologies if it is in the essays but I have read the Long Night ones and can't see any mention. 

This is something I'm going to look into more, and it involves the clans from the mountains of the moon, and very interesting clan names such as the "Stone Crows"(possible Black stone reference?) and also the "Moon brothers"(well, the moon and all that) but this passage here is interesting I think. 

Here is the Clans participating in their first battle for the Lannisters against the North.

"Shagga went bursting through the gap before the shields could close, other Stone Crows hard behind him. Tyrion shouted, "Burned Men! Moon Brothers! After me!" but most of them were ahead of him. He glimpsed Timett son of Timett vault free as his mount died under him in full stride, saw a Moon Brother impaled on a Karstark spear, watched Conn's horse shatter a man's ribs with a kick. A flight of arrows descended on them; where they came from he could not say, but they fell on Stark and Lannister alike, rattling off armor or finding flesh. Tyrion lifted his shield and hid beneath it."

I wonder if this is more Symbolism we should take note of concerning the cracking of the moon and the raining down on earth with many pieces.

See the Karstark spear, (the sunburst) possibly a reference to the story of the second moon wandering too close to the sun and the fiery Comet (spear?), impaling the moon brother (the second moon) and the flight of arrows descending on everybody from each side (moon meteors, pieces of the moon falling to earth maybe?). 

I wonder if perhaps there is more stuf like this. The Stone crows are interesting because it certainly does seem like a nod to Black stone, or at least to me it does.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

In support of dragons coming from Asshai. Found this is the World Book.

Quote

In Asshai, the tales are many and confused, but certain texts—all impossibly ancient—claim that dragons first came from the Shadow, a place where all of our learning fails us. These Asshai'i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria, teaching the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

12 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

In support of dragons coming from Asshai. Found this is the World Book.

 

Only just noticed you posted this, thought this thread had faded into obscurity lol. 

Yeah that's a fine piece of text that lends weight to the idea that Dragons and Dragon like creatures first appeared in Asshai.