The Journey from Ice to Lightbringer

[Nezza86]

I’ve used some information from the released chapters of the winds of winter here so don’t click on the spoiler below if youre choosing not to read them before TWOW release.

Most of the debate about Lightbringer revolves around it being one of the following; the dragons, the nights watch, Jon, Dany, the original VS sword or dawn. However I’ve always thought about how these would affect the end story. If LB were the dragons the end of the series would be that Dany got off her butt and flew Drogon north found the night’s king and burnt him, which would be a very disappointing end to the series if you ask me. A reinvigorated NW also would be pretty disappointing, same for it being an individual person and I don’t even see what point that would have in the story. My thoughts on Dawn are that Dany will claim it later in the story when she discovers her true identity which I believe to be the daughter of Ashara Dayne and the Mad King therefore I don’t think Dawn will become LB.

For me LB has to be a sword, a flaming sword, but I think there needs to be a plot reason why it’s needed. Surely as things stand Jon could kill the night’s king with Longclaw or any VS sword, alternatively Dany could burn him with a dragon?

Spoiler

But what if Euron’s VS armour fell into the hands of the Nights King? Then no VS blade could cut through his armour and maybe it would offer some protection from dragon fire too. This would create a stalemate and gives the story the need for a magical flaming sword that’s stronger than even VS.

Throughout the book there’s reference to flaming swords. There’s mention of Thoros setting fire to steel swords in the past using wild fire (I think?) but they always deteriorate and break. When Beric Dondarrion fights the Hound he cuts his hand with his steel sword and this sets it on fire, but again the blade weakens and breaks. What this says to me is that, to ignite a sword ‘magically’ you have to possibly have faith in R’hllor but definitely you have to offer a blood sacrifice, perhaps self-sacrifice being the key. Since VS is believed to be forged in dragon fire I suggest that a VS sword could withstand being lit on fire much better than a steel sword. If BD had a VS sword the hound would have been toast. We also have repeated references to the importance and power of Kings Blood. Would it therefore be a more ‘magical’ flame if the sword was given a blood sacrifice from a noble house of kings of old, such as the main characters from the series?

I think LB is the equivalent of the elder wand in Harry Potter, we’ve seen it already but haven’t realised what it is yet. The story of the forging of LB has AA make the sword three times, the first two times it shatters and the last time it ignites. He tempers it in water, then a lion’s heart then his wife sacrifices herself and it goes on fire. I think this story sums up the journey that ICE, the first VS sword we see in the series, will take to become LB. It also highlights the importance of self-sacrifice and love being involved with igniting the sword.

ICE was used to kill Ned in the first book, and there are some references of how Ned had ice in his veins. Could Ned represent water from the AA story? ICE was then broken down into two swords by Tobho Mott, the only man we know of in Westeros who can rework VS. The swords are named Oathkeeper and Widows Wail. Both of which seem prophetic to me since Cersei is a widow and Jamie is the Oathbreaker, both characters also represent the lion.

Brienne was in possession of Oathkeeper when threatened with hanging by Lady Stoneheart. She was told to choose ‘Noose or Sword’, hang or slay the kingslayer. I dont think she'll kill Jamie but then maybe Jamie is no longer the kingslayer as thats more associate with Jamie the villian and after he had his hand cut off he has started to redeem himself. Say Brienne lures Jamie to LS only for her to give him the same ultimatum, then he chooses ‘sword’ as well and is told to kill Cersei.

WW is currently believed to belong to Tommen but should he die it would likely end up in Jamie’s posession. While in the capital maybe he uncovers Arya plotting to kill Cersei herself and since he’s sworn to protect Arya (and by this time presumably has turned against Cersei) he does kill Cersei the Mad Queen with WW, then escapes with Arya back to LS. Then just as Jamie has completed his redemption arc by killing his sister becoming the Valonqar and returning Arya to her undead mother…. he’s killed by someone in the BWOB, using OK. What Brienne does then I don’t know.

This would mean ICE has been tempered in ‘water’ (Ned) then broken down into two swords both of which were tempered in a ‘lion’ (Cersei & Jamie). All three characters have royal blood as their families used to be kings. However none of them sacrificed their blood as they were killed against their will.

So I’m assuming LS knows that the re-forged sword will become LB, perhaps from her being resurrected by R’hllor etc. and also that she knows that Jon wasn’t Ned’s child. I get the impression she is some sort of conduit for R’hllor or is acting on some instinct after her resurrection. Either way I think she’ll want to re-forge the sword and take it back to Winterfell where it belongs. Luckily she has access to the one person in Westeros (with noble blood) who may know how to work VS, i.e. Gendry. So Gendry takes WW and OK and forges a new sword. The followers of R’hllor aren’t likely to rename the sword ICE; maybe they’ll name it FIRE. LS then takes the new sword back to Winterfell and gives it to a newly resurrected Jon who LS now recognises as Lyanna’s son and AA reborn.

Now we just need the blood sacrifice for love, i.e. Dany.

So Dany is told that she will light three fires (one for life, death and love), ride three mounts (to bed, dread and love) and know three betrayals (for Blood, Gold and love). I think she has lit the fire for life when she hatched the dragon’s eggs, and I think the fire for death will occur at Vaes Dothrak when she unites the Khalasars. I think she has already ridden two mounts, Silver on her wedding night to Drogo, and Drogon when she’s in danger at the fighting pits. I believe she’s had one betrayer already, Mirri Maz Duur who tricked her into sacrificing her baby, but I don’t think Jorah is her second Betrayer as his never really cost her anything, I actually think the second betrayal will happen during the battle of Meereen and someone amongst her advisors (not Hizdahr) will betray her for gold.

Interestingly the last one of each are all for ‘love’ perhaps instead of these being three separate events they are all actually one event. So for ‘love’ she rides a mount, knows a betrayal and lights a fire all in one. It’s also interesting that the wording is that she will ‘know’ three betrayals, maybe for this one she is the betrayer not the betrayee. So should she meet Jon and he fall in love with her, or her with him or both, then she betrays him in some way that leads to him killing her with this new sword FIRE, perhaps without him knowing who she is at the time. Then Dany’s betrayal was to Jon, her mount was death (?) and the fire lit was the flame of Lightbringer, which he can now use to kill the nights king.

[Nezza86]

Seriously? Not one reply?

[YOVMO]

20 hours ago, Nezza86 said:

Seriously? Not one reply?

I stopped reading after your generous spoiler alert because I have avoided the new chapters. However, judging by the title it is exactly what I would get into

[Cridefea]

29 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I stopped reading after your generous spoiler alert because I have avoided the new chapters. However, judging by the title it is exactly what I would get into

Idem. But this year I'm going to read them, cause I'm sick of waiting. In any case, I think the title is indicative enough to say something: I'm quite sure that WW and OB together will be very decisive in the final battle and that Ice could easily be LB. Somewhere else on this forum I've said that it reminds me a lot the Elder Wand in HP and that it will be difficult to trace its passages. Maybe the only one who can do it it's Sam.

[YOVMO]

2 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

Idem. But this year I'm going to read them, cause I'm sick of waiting. In any case, I think the title is indicative enough to say something: I'm quite sure that WW and OB together will be very decisive in the final battle and that Ice could easily be LB. Somewhere else on this forum I've said that it reminds me a lot the Elder Wand in HP and that it will be difficult to trace its passages. Maybe the only one who can do it it's Sam.

I am still trying to hold out. I have made several elder wand comparisons myself btw including how windows Wail and Oathkeeper will never truly respond properly to a non stark.

[Cridefea]

5 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I am still trying to hold out. I have made several elder wand comparisons myself btw including how windows Wail and Oathkeeper will never truly respond properly to a non stark.

I think they will respond to Brienne and Jaime, like in Jaime's dream. What I find very interesting it's the difference of colors: smokey, red and silvery-blue. 

[Curled Finger]

That is one way it could all work out.   We certainly need a flaming sword and it was a nice reminder that the Lightning Lord's sword broke as well as Thoros' swords of old.   The logic behind Lightbringer, a flaming sword, being made of particularly fire resistant steel is sound.  Why settle for Valyrian Steel when Dawn is supposed to be made from the heart of a meteor?  Seems to me you would need a material stronger than Valyrian Steel as opposed to hotter than steel to cut through it.  Starfall is allegedly made of the meteoric material and has stood for 2 to 10,000 years.   I'm thinking these swords the Others carry are as cold to ice as dragon flame is to fire.   This is where a flaming sword will be particularly useful.  

Brienne has done OK with Oathkeeper.   That is, this sword has served her well.  It is said that Valyrian Steel "remembers" and occasionally seems to act on its own will.   Could be the memory isn't so much of a bloodline than it is to another Harry Potter item, the Choosing Hat.  Could be 12 (not 11) Valyrian Steel swords are required to accompany Lightbringer.   Martin spent a lot of words describing Tywin's pride in claiming the remnants of Ice.   We are told the dye wouldn't take correctly and even given particular measurements for Widows Wail.    Why would he unite Widows Wail and Oathkeeper after all the words he invested in separating them for houses Baratheon and finally, Lannister?

Dany, like Jon, could have any of  many parents.   Regardless of heritage Dany is not a warrior.   She is a conqueror, but she has no use for another weapon.   She's got 3 dragons.   I'm thinking a sword would be useless overkill for her.  She promised Jorah a Valyrian Steel sword, not Dawn.  

I'm not especially invested so much as resigned to Dawn being Lightbringer--even that is tenuous at this point.  @Nezza86, you've made some valid points in the OP but I'm not sure you've made a case for a VS Lightbringer.   I have to ask if this is your original idea or if you formulated it after several reads?   

[Nezza86]

Wow replies  thanks, yeah this is my own idea i've read a lot of the posts on here about lightbringer and never seen any that quite seem to fit. I’ve read the books right through once and listened to the audiobooks a couple of times.

Yeah I certainly considered Dawn when I was piecing my theory together, but I felt there was too much parity between what ICE has gone through so far and the AA forging LB story. All we've heard about Dawn so far is that it’s hanging on a wall in Starfall and waiting to be claimed by a suitable Dayne, and the only Daynes in the story so far that I can remember are Darkstar and Edric (the one Arya meets with the BWOB). I could see Darkstar stealing the sword, but it just lined up too nicely for me that Dany would end up being half Dayne and claiming the sword. All theoretical of course. Though I can't see how Dany would have any use for Dawn herself either as she has no weapons training etc. I just thought it could be more symbolic of her identity.

When I decided that LB had to be a fireproof sword and not a person nor a dragon, I thought "which sword has been used to kill or even just cut someone of noble birth within the books?" and there were only two options either ICE which has been used to kill Ned, or the knife that Joffrey gives the assassin to kill Bran, which cut Catelynn who also could be said to represent 'water' from the AA story. To me that felt unlikely though.

Also in Tyrions second chapter of AGOT, he’s reading a book under a tree before Jon comes to speak to him and it’s on the properties of dragons, it mentions how dragon bone is totally impervious to fire. It wouldn’t be too much of a stretch to assume VS which I think is forged in dragon fire is as well.

I read a post ages ago were someone was debating about why would anyone give up two VS swords to make one since we obviously need as many as possible to fit the others. But then re-forging the two swords into one could be symbolic of the Starks reclaiming the North from the South or from the South’s influence. And if it had to be done to create LB anyway then of course you would give up one of the VS swords.

I do agree that Brienne seems to have an affinity with OK, and Jamie’s dream about them wielding two blue flaming swords (likely OK and WW) would suggest that they are meant to have them. My theory would leave Brienne without a VS sword, though maybe Dany would gift Dawn to her in the final books to make her the head of Dany’s Queensguard and surely Jon would relinquish Longclaw back to Jorah if he got his hands on the reforged Stark sword.  

I’ll have to reread the section where Tywin unveils OK and WW, but I don’t usually put much store in how many words GRRM uses to describe something, he writes a lot about food throughout, and clothes too actually. But I guess it would be a big deal (worthy of lots of description) even if it was only one of the two times the sword would be reforged.

I really liked the idea of the missing swords for a long time as well, but 12 seemed like too many. The idea of there being 7 companions maybe would work, (7 characters that represent the god of the 7, with 7 VS swords and Jon with LB) and I definitely think we’ll see dark sister and Blackfyre again but it just seemed like 12 was too many missing swords to wrap up in the final two books.

The 7 most obvious swords are Longclaw, OK, WW, Harts Bane, Dark Sister, Blackfyre and Brightroar, out-with those you’d need another 5. Maybe Euron found Brightroar in Valyria, Aegon will get Blackfyre from the golden company and Jon will find Dark Sister in the crypts at Winterfell. Maybe Bloodraven set things in motion to make sure the two Targaryen swords would end up in the right place to make sure Dany makes the right decision to choose Jon over Aegon. Quaithe does tell her that “To go north, [she] must journey south” I thought this could mean she must go to Dorne and work out who she really is and discover Jon’s identity which will make her choose to go North only to find out that he has Darksister which proves his identity to her.

Thanks for the replies, it’s nice to have someone critique my theory and make me think more about it. Ill maybe try to edit the original post so you can avoid the spoilers. Sorry if I ramble a bit.

[Nezza86]

In AGOT in Neds 4th chapter when he first speaks to littlefinger, littlefinger says:

"I should have thought that heat ill-suits you Starks.... Here in the South they say you're all made of ice, and melt when you ride below the neck."

I'd say theres a strong case for Ned representing the "water" from the AA story.

[cgrav]

4 hours ago, Nezza86 said:

In AGOT in Neds 4th chapter when he first speaks to littlefinger, littlefinger says:

"I should have thought that heat ill-suits you Starks.... Here in the South they say you're all made of ice, and melt when you ride below the neck."

I'd say theres a strong case for Ned representing the "water" from the AA story.

I would take that quote as a reference to the Others, which is also foreshadowed when Dany has a vision of melting an army of ice at the Trident. 

Ilyn Payne definitely represents the Others in Ned's death scene, while Ned himself represents the traditional ruler of death and the underworld (Others voices sound like ice cracking, Ilyn sounds like clacking). Ned's execution thus is a symbol of the Others overcoming death itself.

Ice does have a good chance of being LB, I'm still unsure if we should expect to see the tempering process play out with the sword itself. The splitting of the sword mirrors the Last Hero's broken sword, so if there is a symbolic tempering process, I'd expect we see it later on. 

[Cridefea]

On 18/1/2017 at 4:46 PM, Nezza86 said:

I’ll have to reread the section where Tywin unveils OK and WW, but I don’t usually put much store in how many words GRRM uses to describe something, he writes a lot about food throughout, and clothes too actually. But I guess it would be a big deal (worthy of lots of description) even if it was only one of the two times the sword would be reforged

Here: 

 

Quote

As he entered his lord father’s solar a few moments later, he heard a voice saying, “...cherrywood for the scabbards, bound in red leather and ornamented with a row of lion’s-head studs in pure gold. Perhaps with garnets for the eyes...”

“Rubies,” Lord Tywin said. “Garnets lack the fire.”

Tyrion cleared his throat. “My lord. You sent for me?”

His father glanced up. “I did. Come have a look at this.” A bundle of oilcloth lay on the table between them, and Lord Tywin had a longsword in his hand.

“A wedding gift for Joffrey,” he told Tyrion. The light streaming through the diamond-shaped panes of glass made the blade shimmer black and red as Lord Tywin turned it to inspect the edge, while the pommel and crossguard flamed gold.

[...]

 The sword was much lighter than he had expected. As he turned it in his hand he saw why. Only one metal could be beaten so thin and still have strength enough to fight with, and there was no mistaking those ripples, the mark of steel that has been folded back on itself many thousands of times. “Valyrian steel?”

[...]

“The colors are strange,” he commented as he turned the blade in the sunlight. Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black, as was true here as well. But blended into the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distinct, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore. “How did you get this patterning? I’ve never seen anything like it.”

“Nor I, my lord,” said the armorer. “I confess, these colors were not what I intended, and I do not know that I could duplicate them. Your lord father had asked for the crimson of your House, and it was that color I set out to infuse into the metal. But Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily. I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it. And some folds would not take the red at all, as you can see. if my lords of Lannister are displeased, I will of course try again, as many times as you should require, but -”

“No need,” Lord Tywin said. “This will serve.”

“A crimson sword might flash prettily in the sun, but if truth be told I like these colors better,” said Tyrion. “They have an ominous beauty... and they make this blade unique. There is no other sword like it in all the world, I should think.”

"There is one." The armorer bent over the table and unfolded the bundle of oilcloth, to reveal a second longsword.

Tyrion put down Joffrey's sword and took up the other. If not twins, the two were at least close cousins. This one was thicker and heavier, a half-inch wider and three inches longer, but they shared the same fine clean lines and the same distinctive color, the ripples of blood and night. Three fullers, deeply incised, ran down the second blade from hilt to point; the king's sword had only two. Joff's hilt was a good deal more ornate, the arms of its crossguard done as lions' paws with ruby claws unsheathed, but both swords had grips of finely tooled red leather and gold lions' heads for pommels.

"Magnificent." Even in hands as unskilled as Tyrion's, the blade felt alive. "I have never felt better balance."

Tyrion IV A Storm of Swords

 

Quote

Brienne approached as if the bundle was like to bite her, reached out a huge freckled hand, and flipped back a fold of cloth. Rubies glimmered in the light. She picked the treasure up gingerly, curled her fingers around the leather grip, and slowly slid the sword free of its scabbard. Blood and black the ripples shone. A finger of reflected light ran red along the edge. "Is this Valyrian steel? I have never seen such colors."

"Nor I. There was a time that I would have given my right hand to wield a sword like that. Now it appears I have, so the blade is wasted on me. Take it." Before she could think to refuse, he went on. "A sword so fine must bear a name. It would please me if you would call this one Oathkeeper. One more thing. The blade comes with a price."

Jaime IX A Storm of Swords

 

[Nezza86]

Thanks for the quotes, I still think GRRM would have written just as much about the swords if their reforging was one step on the way to becoming lightbringer.

Im listening to the audiobook of AGOT again just now and a few things have jumped out at me that support my theory.

When Jeor Mormonet gives Jon Longclaw, the lord commanders tower has just burnt down and among the ashes etc he finds the sword undamaged but inside a damaged scabbard. He also says something like "it would take a fire a hundred times as hot to damage this sword". So I take that as pretty clear textual evidence that valyrian steel is fireproof.

Straight after this Jon pretends to be grateful for the sword but thinks about how it was another mans sword he wanted. Again i'm assuming here but I dont think that man is Arthur Dayne. Especially given that immediately prior to that he thinks about how many times he has imagined himself saving Neds life and him then proclaiming him a true Stark. Therefore Jon has dreamt about wielding ICE since he was younger. I think when the Starks retake the North from the Boltons Jon, or Sansa, or Lady Stoneheart or someone will decide to reforge Oathkeeper and Widows Wail back into one sword as a symbol of the Starks rule over the North.

Lastly, when Ned is taken out to the sept of Baelor to confess and proclaim Joffrey as the rightful king it is intended by the small council that he is to join the nightswatch. Instead Joffrey decides to cut his head off. I thought it was a bit convenient that Ilyn Payne was already there given the plan was for him to take the black. Also it's a bit lucky that Ilyn Payne had the foresight to steal Ned's sword beforehand and have it with him. Was he planning to hand it back to him after he confessed and before he left the capital? Given that Cersei wants the Starks to submit she would hardly let IP keep ICE knowing that even if Ned lived and Robb become the lord of Winterfell, he'll still want his house's ancestral blade back. Unless IP knew he was going to behead Ned, but still why take ICE? It felt like a bit of a tenuous plot point to have Ned killed with his own sword, which suggests to me that it was necessary for the overall story. Valyrian sword spills kings blood that represents water, lions next.

[Nezza86]

So nobody else likes this theory but me so im just going to keep posting new evidence i find to support this.

Arya I ACOK Just after Joren has spanked her for beating up Hot Pie.

Quote

That night, she lay upon her thin blanket, on the hard ground, staring up at the great red comet. The comet was splendid and scary all at once. "The red sword" the bull named it, he claimed it looked like a sword. The blade still red hot from the forge. When Arya squinted the right way, she could see the sword too. Only it wasnt a new sword, it was Ice. Her fathers great sword, all ripply Valyrian steel and the red was lord Eddards blood on the blade after Ser Ilyn, the kings justice, had cut off his head.

This to me foreshadows ICE becoming Lightbringer and theres a clear link between fire or heat and Eddards noble blood.

I know other people see the comet later and claim it looks like other things. And I know i'll interpret the evidence to support my theory. But this seems a bit obvious now to me. Do people really still think Dawn will be Lightbringer? Wouldnt the whole story be told from the point of view of the Daynes if Dawn was that important?

[Winter prince]

2 hours ago, Nezza86 said:

So nobody else likes this theory but me so im just going to keep posting new evidence i find to support this.

Arya I ACOK Just after Joren has spanked her for beating up Hot Pie.

This to me foreshadows ICE becoming Lightbringer and theres a clear link between fire or heat and Eddards noble blood.

I know other people see the comet later and claim it looks like other things. And I know i'll interpret the evidence to support my theory. But this seems a bit obvious now to me. Do people really still think Dawn will be Lightbringer? Wouldnt the whole story be told from the point of view of the Daynes if Dawn was that important?

There is a great thread that I can't link to right now since I'm slightly limited in my search functions, but it discusses Jon becoming the Sword of the Morning (wielder of Dawn) due to some foreshadowing.

But I like the theory of ICE coming to him in the form of a new Lightbringer just as much as him becoming the wielder of Dawn.

I also like the idea of Jon starting with his bastard sword and moving to a great sword, which Rattleshirt (Mance) wielded with such ease.

So, is ICE central to the story or is it the mythical blade of House Dayne?  I would love for a new book to help us answer this question

 

[Nezza86]

Yeah If you find that @Winter prince I'd love to read it. Cause of course I could be blinkering myself to the idea of ICE becoming lightbringer. 

Id love to see a feasible path of dawn reaching Jon. Assuming Jon is AAR of course. But this is a fantasy series and the young boy with the identity crisis and questionable parentage is likely to be the most important person in the series. Especially when he joins an organisation that keeps him away from all the crap the rest of his family went through. 

Who do you think will bring Dawn into the story? The only option other than Dany that I can think of is Darkstar, and he's a villain. I kind of think that all of the Villians will stupidly try to ally with the Nights King who'll promptly kill them and take all their shit. Maybe the Nights King ends up with Dawn. It's not iron so he doesn't hate it: and it's more like one of the white walkers pale swords anyway.

[Luddagain]

Each of the Valerian swords is important.

 

However i think that there is nasty symbolism  in the splitting of ice- It means a battle between two different Starks. 

There are many important sword - I count 18 named swords

First the mythical but powerful swords - not Valyrian - or possibly not

1. Just Maid is mythical but will probably be wielded by Brienne on behalf of Sansa

2. Lightbringer by probably Jon-

3. The original Ice - could be Jon or Bran (on a dragon or as Hodor)

4.  Dawn by Edrik Dayne or conceivably Jon

 

Then the missing swords

1. Lamentation - by a Royce

2. Bright roar - by Gerion, Tyrion, Tyrek or possibly Podrik or jaime

3. Blackfyre - probably Aegon

4. Orphan maker - someone from the Reach - when found - possibly a Tyrell

5. Dark sister - Arya

6. Truth - who knows

 

then the 8 we know of

1.Heartsbane - Sam will have to wield it

2. Oathkeeper - a stark or Jaime

3. Widow's wail - a stark or Bolton or just maybe Lady Dustin

4. Longclaw - Ser Jorah - it is his by rights - if not one of the Mormant's

5. Vigilance - a Hightower

6. Red Rain - it is sitting in the iron Islands but i suspect will be reclaimed by some long lost bastard Reyne

7. Lady Folorn - Lyn Corbray

8. Nightfall - a Harlaw

 

 

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I have a sort of similar idea that I'll refrain from posting here so as not to derail your thread. Good possibilities here!

[Curled Finger]

On 2/8/2017 at 4:49 AM, Nezza86 said:

Thanks for the quotes, I still think GRRM would have written just as much about the swords if their reforging was one step on the way to becoming lightbringer.

Im listening to the audiobook of AGOT again just now and a few things have jumped out at me that support my theory.

When Jeor Mormonet gives Jon Longclaw, the lord commanders tower has just burnt down and among the ashes etc he finds the sword undamaged but inside a damaged scabbard. He also says something like "it would take a fire a hundred times as hot to damage this sword". So I take that as pretty clear textual evidence that valyrian steel is fireproof.

I do like the imagery and understand how you are stitching your idea into the fabric of prophesy here.  The thing is we just can't be sure of any of the prophesies.   Some people believe the story of the making of LB is actually the recipe for making VS, others think the Nissa Nissa willing sacrifice is the key.   Personally, I think the stupid legend points to AA more than the sword, but that idea is as silly as any other so I won't bore you with it.  All I'm saying is if LB is as you say like this elder wand, you have to be open to seeing it prophesy be damned.  

Arguments in favor of Dawn being actual Dragon Steel are pretty persuasive starting with the name.  Dawn, to end the Long Night.  I find it most curious that there are 15 named VS swords then Dawn with the legend of the Last Hero and his dozen companions.   If you follow the appearance and disappearances of the swords once the Targs landed their number continue to add up to 12.  More than once.  That is as persuasive to me as any sword meeting prophetic criterion.  

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 1/13/2017 at 8:13 AM, Nezza86 said:

I’ve used some information from the released chapters of the winds of winter here so don’t click on the spoiler below if youre choosing not to read them before TWOW release.

Most of the debate about Lightbringer revolves around it being one of the following; the dragons, the nights watch, Jon, Dany, the original VS sword or dawn. However I’ve always thought about how these would affect the end story. If LB were the dragons the end of the series would be that Dany got off her butt and flew Drogon north found the night’s king and burnt him, which would be a very disappointing end to the series if you ask me. A reinvigorated NW also would be pretty disappointing, same for it being an individual person and I don’t even see what point that would have in the story. My thoughts on Dawn are that Dany will claim it later in the story when she discovers her true identity which I believe to be the daughter of Ashara Dayne and the Mad King therefore I don’t think Dawn will become LB.

For me LB has to be a sword, a flaming sword, but I think there needs to be a plot reason why it’s needed. Surely as things stand Jon could kill the night’s king with Longclaw or any VS sword, alternatively Dany could burn him with a dragon?

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But what if Euron’s VS armour fell into the hands of the Nights King? Then no VS blade could cut through his armour and maybe it would offer some protection from dragon fire too. This would create a stalemate and gives the story the need for a magical flaming sword that’s stronger than even VS.

Throughout the book there’s reference to flaming swords. There’s mention of Thoros setting fire to steel swords in the past using wild fire (I think?) but they always deteriorate and break. When Beric Dondarrion fights the Hound he cuts his hand with his steel sword and this sets it on fire, but again the blade weakens and breaks. What this says to me is that, to ignite a sword ‘magically’ you have to possibly have faith in R’hllor but definitely you have to offer a blood sacrifice, perhaps self-sacrifice being the key. Since VS is believed to be forged in dragon fire I suggest that a VS sword could withstand being lit on fire much better than a steel sword. If BD had a VS sword the hound would have been toast. We also have repeated references to the importance and power of Kings Blood. Would it therefore be a more ‘magical’ flame if the sword was given a blood sacrifice from a noble house of kings of old, such as the main characters from the series?

I think LB is the equivalent of the elder wand in Harry Potter, we’ve seen it already but haven’t realised what it is yet. The story of the forging of LB has AA make the sword three times, the first two times it shatters and the last time it ignites. He tempers it in water, then a lion’s heart then his wife sacrifices herself and it goes on fire. I think this story sums up the journey that ICE, the first VS sword we see in the series, will take to become LB. It also highlights the importance of self-sacrifice and love being involved with igniting the sword.

ICE was used to kill Ned in the first book, and there are some references of how Ned had ice in his veins. Could Ned represent water from the AA story? ICE was then broken down into two swords by Tobho Mott, the only man we know of in Westeros who can rework VS. The swords are named Oathkeeper and Widows Wail. Both of which seem prophetic to me since Cersei is a widow and Jamie is the Oathbreaker, both characters also represent the lion.

Brienne was in possession of Oathkeeper when threatened with hanging by Lady Stoneheart. She was told to choose ‘Noose or Sword’, hang or slay the kingslayer. I dont think she'll kill Jamie but then maybe Jamie is no longer the kingslayer as thats more associate with Jamie the villian and after he had his hand cut off he has started to redeem himself. Say Brienne lures Jamie to LS only for her to give him the same ultimatum, then he chooses ‘sword’ as well and is told to kill Cersei.

WW is currently believed to belong to Tommen but should he die it would likely end up in Jamie’s posession. While in the capital maybe he uncovers Arya plotting to kill Cersei herself and since he’s sworn to protect Arya (and by this time presumably has turned against Cersei) he does kill Cersei the Mad Queen with WW, then escapes with Arya back to LS. Then just as Jamie has completed his redemption arc by killing his sister becoming the Valonqar and returning Arya to her undead mother…. he’s killed by someone in the BWOB, using OK. What Brienne does then I don’t know.

This would mean ICE has been tempered in ‘water’ (Ned) then broken down into two swords both of which were tempered in a ‘lion’ (Cersei & Jamie). All three characters have royal blood as their families used to be kings. However none of them sacrificed their blood as they were killed against their will.

So I’m assuming LS knows that the re-forged sword will become LB, perhaps from her being resurrected by R’hllor etc. and also that she knows that Jon wasn’t Ned’s child. I get the impression she is some sort of conduit for R’hllor or is acting on some instinct after her resurrection. Either way I think she’ll want to re-forge the sword and take it back to Winterfell where it belongs. Luckily she has access to the one person in Westeros (with noble blood) who may know how to work VS, i.e. Gendry. So Gendry takes WW and OK and forges a new sword. The followers of R’hllor aren’t likely to rename the sword ICE; maybe they’ll name it FIRE. LS then takes the new sword back to Winterfell and gives it to a newly resurrected Jon who LS now recognises as Lyanna’s son and AA reborn.

Now we just need the blood sacrifice for love, i.e. Dany.

So Dany is told that she will light three fires (one for life, death and love), ride three mounts (to bed, dread and love) and know three betrayals (for Blood, Gold and love). I think she has lit the fire for life when she hatched the dragon’s eggs, and I think the fire for death will occur at Vaes Dothrak when she unites the Khalasars. I think she has already ridden two mounts, Silver on her wedding night to Drogo, and Drogon when she’s in danger at the fighting pits. I believe she’s had one betrayer already, Mirri Maz Duur who tricked her into sacrificing her baby, but I don’t think Jorah is her second Betrayer as his never really cost her anything, I actually think the second betrayal will happen during the battle of Meereen and someone amongst her advisors (not Hizdahr) will betray her for gold.

Interestingly the last one of each are all for ‘love’ perhaps instead of these being three separate events they are all actually one event. So for ‘love’ she rides a mount, knows a betrayal and lights a fire all in one. It’s also interesting that the wording is that she will ‘know’ three betrayals, maybe for this one she is the betrayer not the betrayee. So should she meet Jon and he fall in love with her, or her with him or both, then she betrays him in some way that leads to him killing her with this new sword FIRE, perhaps without him knowing who she is at the time. Then Dany’s betrayal was to Jon, her mount was death (?) and the fire lit was the flame of Lightbringer, which he can now use to kill the nights king.

Well, we haven't met a nights king yet. A major problem with anything lightbringer is that it is first and foremost a myth told by Mel, and she is very wrong about a lot of things. Assuming we meet a nights king, and assuming euron is killed or gives his armor to said nights king, and valyrian steel armor can protect someone against dragon fire, would a flaming sword somehow be hotter than dragonfire or stronger than valyrian steel armor? Valyrian steel's big advantage is that it can cut through regular steel fairly easily.
So if there is a night's king, and if he gets Euron's armor and if that armor can protect the wearer from dragonfire yet be vulnerable to  flaming magical valyrian steel then yes possibly someone could reforge an already tempered by water pair of swords into a new light bringer

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Each of the Valerian swords is important.

 

However i think that there is nasty symbolism  in the splitting of ice- It means a battle between two different Starks. 

There are many important sword - I count 18 named swords

First the mythical but powerful swords - not Valyrian - or possibly not

1. Just Maid is mythical but will probably be wielded by Brienne on behalf of Sansa

2. Lightbringer by probably Jon-

3. The original Ice - could be Jon or Bran (on a dragon or as Hodor)

4.  Dawn by Edrik Dayne or conceivably Jon

Then the missing swords

1. Lamentation - by a Royce

2. Bright roar - by Gerion, Tyrion, Tyrek or possibly Podrik or jaime

3. Blackfyre - probably Aegon

4. Orphan maker - someone from the Reach - when found - possibly a Tyrell

5. Dark sister - Arya

6. Truth - who knows

then the 8 we know of

1.Heartsbane - Sam will have to wield it

2. Oathkeeper - a stark or Jaime

3. Widow's wail - a stark or Bolton or just maybe Lady Dustin

4. Longclaw - Ser Jorah - it is his by rights - if not one of the Mormant's

5. Vigilance - a Hightower

6. Red Rain - it is sitting in the iron Islands but i suspect will be reclaimed by some long lost bastard Reyne

7. Lady Folorn - Lyn Corbray

8. Nightfall - a Harlaw

Amen.  Our mythical swords appear to be gone and our Last Hero only had 12 companions.  I love that you've listed so many named swords, but I will argue that we don't know Vigilance is with the Hightowers.  It doesn't appear to have been seen since the 1st Battle of Tumbledon during the DOD.   Nearly 150 years back.  I hope it's with them, but I wouldn't categorize it as known.  

There is a 45 year old man who I believe is a legitimate Reyne (but could be a Tarbeck--fascinating either way).  A 3 year-old boy managed to escape or was taken from the carnage at Castamere.   So there is one out there somewhere.  I don't think Sam could actually wield Heartsbane.   It is our last truly big greatsword.  They are between 5'6" and 6' long.   Let's save that for a big man who can actually use it and let Sam be a wizard.  I think Red Rain and Nightfall and possibly Heartsbane are all about to change hands in the conflict in The Reach. I expect Truth and Orphan Maker and Blackfyre to show up in TWOW.  I have a feeling Dark Sister is already where she needs to be so she may not move at all.  I also think Brightroar and Lamentation are truly gone, never to be seen again.  My point being that these 12 swords will find their heroes.  I think we've already seen all the possible heroes, like Bran with Hodor and Meera.  I have had better luck matching the names of the swords to other swords than I have matching them with heroes.  My list is currently 30 long.   I'm only sure of 2 or 3 at this point.