Wild Bill Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 29 minutes ago, Caterina Sforza said: ... To answer OP's question, this is a good critical review about the books, IMO. "Why Game of Thrones Jumped the Shark (and why George R.R. Martin will never finish his series)" by The Distributist on Youtube. It starts with the tv show, in particular season 7, but it's mainly about the books. I wish this was transcripted but I think it's 35 minutes worth listening. I only got 8-9 minutes into it before totally losing interest. Sorry I didn't stick around to hear book stuff, so to speak. The books and the shows are very different things, and while paralleling the two in a critical fashion can be good, non-the-less, OP was looking for critiques of the book. Sorry for not having the patience for going the whole 35 minutes... I suppose a transcript would be useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adaneth Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 9 minutes ago, Wild Bill said: I only got 8-9 minutes into it before totally losing interest. Sorry I didn't stick around to hear book stuff, so to speak. The books and the shows are very different things, and while paralleling the two in a critical fashion can be good, non-the-less, OP was looking for critiques of the book. Sorry for not having the patience for going the whole 35 minutes... I suppose a transcript would be useful. No problem. Lol It is indeed about the books though. He starts with the show just as an excuse to speak about the books ultimately. More specifically why he thinks the series will not end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 The Reason Why... OK, I forget my classical education, being an old geezer. I've done, now, 25 minutes or so into the clip - his treatment of catharsis... [in the classical sense is interesting and debatable]. The conclusion circa minute 34 or so is interesting, and very arguable, and continues with catharsis. He asserts that catharsis does not actually occur in grrm's works. OK, interesting... The triteness of the TV show is reasonable... Though I have total sympathy for the TV producers since there was too much material early on, and then no material later on. They botched planning the series, and are fully culpable for the last retched seasons (IMO). Ultimately, the criticism that is delivered is that the books, or show, does not rise to the level of great literature in the canon of Western civilization. Vs Conrad, Chekhov, Capote, Cooper (doing a "C" theme here :)) Because... it just goes on, with no over-arching themes and such. That it is a, sad, parody of LoTR, etc... Perhaps too strong of a characterization, maybe - that no character, or character arc, or plot arc has any resolution. Which is a good point, but were still two books out, so... The Reason Why is the title of a book about the horrible history of why, after lots of bits, and Irish folk starving to death, the Light Brigade charged to their death in the Crimean War. That, somehow, sums up my feelings about this review, the books, and the series... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adaneth Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 12 hours ago, Wild Bill said: The Reason Why... OK, I forget my classical education, being an old geezer. I've done, now, 25 minutes or so into the clip - his treatment of catharsis... [in the classical sense is interesting and debatable]. The conclusion circa minute 34 or so is interesting, and very arguable, and continues with catharsis. He asserts that catharsis does not actually occur in grrm's works. OK, interesting... That's what I founf interesting too, and I agree with it. As you said, there are still two books to come but his point is that he isn't going to finish those books. I hope this guy is wrong but I'm starting to feel more the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonsbone Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 It is really funny how every discussion somehow turns into a "GRRM won't finish the books" debate. . All jokes aside though, the main literacy problem of the series is deeply connected with the delivery of the books. The story is overloaded with plots, subplots, minor characters and main characters. Characters old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And GRRM. A big man with no idea how these stories will conclude, snarling in the midst of all. We have read five books, and it is still not clear what the overall plot is. Is it the war against the Others? Clearly not, since we have passed 71% of the series, and they are barely mentioned. Is it the war over Westeros? Who's war? One pretender after another. Is it about Danny? Again, 71% finished and she is not even close to Westeros. Is it about Jon? Only as a Catalysator for some events to happen. The book series seems like a collection of plots, that the Author tries to connect, but has not managed yet, and presumably never will. It has some wonderfully written chapters and wonderfull lines, but there are too many open issues, for the series to be considered good literature. I dare to make one prediction though: No matter how or if the series will be finished, you are gonna be disapointed at the end. We are expecting too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adaneth Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 36 minutes ago, Dragonsbone said: It is really funny how every discussion somehow turns into a "GRRM won't finish the books" debate. . All jokes aside though, the main literacy problem of the series is deeply connected with the delivery of the books. The story is overloaded with plots, subplots, minor characters and main characters. Characters old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And GRRM. A big man with no idea how these stories will conclude, snarling in the midst of all. We have read five books, and it is still not clear what the overall plot is. Is it the war against the Others? Clearly not, since we have passed 71% of the series, and they are barely mentioned. Is it the war over Westeros? Who's war? One pretender after another. Is it about Danny? Again, 71% finished and she is not even close to Westeros. Is it about Jon? Only as a Catalysator for some events to happen. The book series seems like a collection of plots, that the Author tries to connect, but has not managed yet, and presumably never will. It has some wonderfully written chapters and wonderfull lines, but there are too many open issues, for the series to be considered good literature. I dare to make one prediction though: No matter how or if the series will be finished, you are gonna be disapointed at the end. We are expecting too much. Good comment and some good questions there. And yeah, perhaps you are right. Maybe there are going to be some dissapointments in the end. It does bother me a lot not being able to finish reading the books. I have difficulties interrupting the reading even with bad books. Although lately I'm doing that. I have no problems cutting off tv series, even those I use to love, when they do not satisfy me anymore. Smh with the books has been rather a difficult thing to do. Go figure why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolsaladgirl93 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 No need to be so cynical guys, this thread was depressing I have faith in the old man, I've read a lot of his scifi and he knows how to end a story well. I believe in him wholeheartedly, though I will often joke about him never finishing the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 35 minutes ago, coolsaladgirl93 said: No need to be so cynical guys, this thread was depressing I have faith in the old man, I've read a lot of his scifi and he knows how to end a story well. I believe in him wholeheartedly, though I will often joke about him never finishing the series. Actually I have faith too. My "Reason Why" post more of a symbolic linkage of: 1) a review with some good bits, but folly 2) a book series with great bits, but folly (of taking 20+ years and still away out) 3) a tv series with great bits, but folly (of not planning the show better) 4) a war with "great bits", but folly (the English aristocracy screwing Ireland and the Crimean War). Cheers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 On 1/13/2017 at 0:00 PM, T and A said: Hi folks, I was interested to know if someone knows some good critical reviews about the novels. I found this one, which is actually really good in terms of literacy and comparison to other books: https://matthilliard.wordpress.com/2010/08/14/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-by-george-r-r-martin/ Do you know any bettter reviews or some reviews that you think were good and most important: objective (e.g. no fan review). I am actually writing an essay about fantasy books and especially fantasy aurhors and I am doing research now. What do you think about the review above? I hope there arent' other threads with this topic. If so I apologize. Back to OP. I didn't think of this before since it is not, strictly, a review. Steven Attewell has a terrific blog at Race for the Iron Throne. He has a section where he does chapter by chapter "historical" analyses of the books. He is early into the third book atm. It is not literary analysis, and is very, very long, so there is no summary, as it were. Edit: look in the Archive|CBC Analysis section... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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