Oh, this one should be good

[YOVMO]

So I have this great book with etymologies going all the way back to the indo-european roots. I was flipping through it and I realized something. So, here is the thing. Either it is the case that @Seams already knows this or it is the case that the can of worms I am about to open will be nigh bottomless. If the former, I am sorry for the repeat. If the later, well, I am pretty sure I will win some form of award for making a person's head explode through the internet...a super power I always really wanted. So without further ado, here goes:

I happen to be looking up the word Hymen. Hymen comes from the greek where it is spelt the same, hymen and means "membrane" and is specifically, as it is in english, related to the virginal membrane. The root of this in the indo-european is syumen -- Syu- means "to bind or sew" and is also the Indo European root of the word Seam. There is a Greek god also named Hymen (of the same root Syu- who is the god of marriage (Syu meaning Sew or Seam together) and the God hymen would translate roughly to either "the joiner" or "one who sews"

Again, Sorry to Seams if this is already known information. However, having read it I figured if it isn't known information it would be desired information. After all, themes of virginity in asoiaf being inexorably linked to sewing and seams and joining by theoretical, etymologically and mythology opens up a whole new world of interpretation. 

Oh, one last thing. That root Syu- is also the root of "Hymn" which when removed from the biblical context simply means a "song of heroes" 

 

Enjoy!

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

So I have this great book with etymologies going all the way back to the indo-european roots. I was flipping through it and I realized something. So, here is the thing. Either it is the case that @Seams already knows this or it is the case that the can of worms I am about to open will be nigh bottomless. If the former, I am sorry for the repeat. If the later, well, I am pretty sure I will win some form of award for making a person's head explode through the internet...a super power I always really wanted. So without further ado, here goes:

I happen to be looking up the word Hymen.

Is that how you spend your weekends..?  

Beware the book of etymologies:

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

No mouse is a match for Septon Jorquen. Very slowly, Sam took hold of the book with his left hand. It was thick and heavy, and when he tried to lift it one-handed, it slipped from his plump fingers and thumped back down. The mouse was gone in half a heartbeat, skittery-quick. Sam was relieved. Squishing the poor little thing would have given him nightmares. "You shouldn't eat the books, though," he said aloud. Maybe he should bring more cheese the next time he came down here.

He was surprised at how low the candle had burned. Had the bean-and-bacon soup been today or yesterday? Yesterday. It must have been yesterday. The realization made him yawn. Jon would be wondering what had become of him, though Maester Aemon would no doubt understand. Before he had lost his sight, the maester had loved books as much as Samwell Tarly did. He understood the way that you could sometimes fall right into them, as if each page was a hole into another world.

You might drown in such a book; like falling into a well or pond:

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell II

Sam tried to keep a brave face on him, for Gilly's sake if little else. She had never seen the sea before. When they were struggling through the snows after fleeing Craster's Keep, they had come on several lakes, and even those had been a wonder to her. As Blackbird slipped away from shore the girl began to tremble, and big salt tears rolled down her cheeks. "Gods be good," Sam heard her whisper. Eastwatch vanished first, and the Wall grew smaller and smaller in the distance, until it finally disappeared. The wind was coming up by then. The sails were the faded grey of a black cloak that had been washed too often, and Gilly's face was white with fear. "This is a good ship," Sam tried to tell her. "You don't have to be afraid." But she only looked at him, held her baby tighter, and fled below.

Sam soon found himself clutching tightly to the gunwale and watching the sweep of the oars. The way they all moved together was somehow beautiful to behold, and better than looking at the water. Looking at the water only made him think of drowning. When he was small his lord father had tried to teach him how to swim by throwing him into the pond beneath Horn Hill. The water had gotten in his nose and in his mouth and in his lungs, and he coughed and wheezed for hours after Ser Hyle pulled him out. After that he never dared go in any deeper than his waist.

 

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Hymen comes from the greek where it is spelt the same, hymen and means "membrane" and is specifically, as it is in english, related to the virginal membrane. The root of this in the indo-european is syumen -- Syu- means "to bind or sew" and is also the Indo European root of the word Seam. There is a Greek god also named Hymen (of the same root Syu- who is the god of marriage (Syu meaning Sew or Seam together) and the God hymen would translate roughly to either "the joiner" or "one who sews"

Isn't the English language great -- so many equivocal depths in that bottomless well!  So the same word contains within it both concepts of joining and tearing.  Similarly, Winterfell ('fell' is a seam, among other things) contains within it the seemingly opposite motions of arrival and departure; triumph and defeat; height and depth; presence and absence.

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Again, Sorry to Seams if this is already known information. However, having read it I figured if it isn't known information it would be desired information. After all, themes of virginity in asoiaf being inexorably linked to sewing and seams and joining by theoretical, etymologically and mythology opens up a whole new world of interpretation. 

Oh, one last thing. That root Syu- is also the root of "Hymn" which when removed from the biblical context simply means a "song of heroes" 

 

Enjoy!

So we have the hymn of the hymens and the song of seams!  It's the cry of 'agony and ecstasy' that rents the fabric of space-time, the lover's orgasmic cry, the mother's cry at the delivery of her child (who also lets forth a blood-curdling scream, announcing its entry into the world as it dutifully joins in with the joyful cacophony of blood, sweat, tears, amniotic fluid, urine and shit all conjoining at the portal of this world's delight), the throes of death and the widow's wail all in one...

Strange that you should bring this up.  I had a similar image flickering in my mind, secondary to our excellent conversation over on the 'Salt and Black Gate' thread in which @Seams connected the Wall's/Black Gate's/Ygritte's tears (crying connotation) with the tears (fabric tearing connotation) involved in the boundary crossing, which is likened to a birth, rebirth, or 'unbirth' (it's as if Bran and co are going backwards in time, creeping back into the womb)!  

The description of the portal stretching and tearing -- encompassing both senses of a distended membrane tearing accompanied by fluid release like 'tears' -- can now be seen as a birth canal, or more specifically cervix and/or vaginal passage.  Accordingly, to the speculations surrounding the mysterious clear-colored effluent or secretion, we can now add amniotic fluid to the mix of possibilities for the 'warm, salty tear' that symbolically rolled down Bran's nose as the passage stretched to accommodate his head.  

In the same conversation, I had associated the tear with blood, even though it's not red...which is a bit of a symbolic hitch admittedly.  Nevertheless, Ygritte says the Wall is made of blood even though it looks pristinely-, sparkly-white, so why shouldn't the saltiness signify the blood and/or metallic content of the Wall?  Note, GRRM often highlights the saltiness of blood in conjunction with a certain metallic taste, sometimes associated with iron or copper, which might point to an underlying metallic foundation to the Wall (some have even speculated, with which I tend to agree, that there is a magical black meteorite foundation or core over which the ice is magically hinged).  

Alternatively, if Bran's not the baby going back into the womb head-first and/or being delivered out of one, then Bran's the head of the penis off to the cavern to give them his seed...I better stop here!

[YOVMO]

48 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Is that how you spend your weekends..?  

Are you suggesting that it is in any way abnormal to lay in bed on a saturday morning and flip through a 2500 page book of etymologies going back to into-european roots and investigate the word "hymen"?

Am I on the wrong board? Let me check the URL.

48 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Beware the book of etymologies:

The abyss has already stared back into me.

48 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

You might drown in such a book; like falling into a well or pond:

Well done...pun intended.

48 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

 

Isn't the English language great -- so many equivocal depths in that bottomless well!  So the same word contains within it both concepts of joining and tearing.  Similarly, Winterfell ('fell' is a seam, among other things) contains within it the seemingly opposite motions of arrival and departure; triumph and defeat; height and depth; presence and absence.

Exactly RR. That idea of opposite motions creating a balance is very nicely laid out in the extant fragments of Heraclitus and the subsequent scholarship on it.

48 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

So we have the hymn of the hymens and the song of seams!

Almost too good to be true.

48 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

 It's the cry of 'agony and ecstasy'

or the song of ice and fire?

48 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

that rents the fabric of space-time, the lover's orgasmic cry, the mother's cry at the delivery of her child (who also lets forth a blood-curdling scream, announcing its entry into the world as it dutifully joins in with the joyful cacophony of blood, sweat, tears, amniotic fluid, urine and shit all conjoining at the portal of this world's delight), the throes of death and the widow's wail all in one...

I love your imagery. So visceral. I really enjoyed reading this.

48 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Strange that you should bring this up.  I had a similar image flickering in my mind, secondary to our excellent conversation over on the 'Salt and Black Gate' thread in which @Seams connected the Wall's/Black Gate's/Ygritte's tears (crying connotation) with the tears (fabric tearing connotation) involved in the boundary crossing, which is likened to a birth, rebirth, or 'unbirth' (it's as if Bran and co are going backwards in time, creeping back into the womb)!  

This is the first thing that sprung to my mind as well. TBH I was so excited at my find that I didn't really write anything out. Just laid it out there as is. But yes, the birth, rebirth, crossing boundaries is big...along with other boundaries being crossed...less natural ones...like the wights.

48 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

The description of the portal stretching and tearing -- encompassing both senses of a distended membrane tearing accompanied by fluid release like 'tears' -- can now be seen as a birth canal, or more specifically cervix and/or vaginal passage.  Accordingly, to the speculations surrounding the mysterious clear-colored effluent or secretion, we can now add amniotic fluid to the mix of possibilities for the 'warm, salty tear' that symbolically rolled down Bran's nose as the passage stretched to accommodate his head.  

Oh man, I have a feeling this is going to be rich. I am going to spend some time on search of ice and fire looking for natality themes.

48 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

In the same conversation, I had associated the tear with blood, even though it's not red...which is a bit of a symbolic hitch admittedly.  Nevertheless, Ygritte says the Wall is made of blood even though it looks pristinely-, sparkly-white, so why shouldn't the saltiness signify the blood and/or metallic content of the Wall? 

 

I have taken Ygritte's claim to have a double meaning. The face value of it is the blood of the wildlings spilled in battles with the NW. However, even though she doesn't fully comprehend what she is saying the way many people who repeat old truisms which are many, many generations old, is that the magic that raised the wall is blood magic.

48 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Note, GRRM often highlights the saltiness of blood in conjunction with a certain metallic taste, sometimes associated with iron or copper, which might point to an underlying metallic foundation to the Wall (some have even speculated, with which I tend to agree, that there is a magical black meteorite foundation or core over which the ice is magically hinged).  

Alternatively, if Bran's not the baby going back into the womb head-first and/or being delivered out of one, then Bran's the head of the penis off to the cavern to give them his seed...I better stop here!

If Bran is the head of the penis would that make Jamie a mohel for clipping him at the beginning of his journey? There are a lot of places to go with this one me thinks.

[Bluetiger]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Is that how you spend your weekends..?  

That's still not so weird compared to what I'm doing ATM. (Hint: that's connected to literature and abnormal)

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Speaking of agony, ecstasy, cries, tears, etc.  Don't forget Nissa Nissa's cry of ecstasy as her heart was pierced by Azor Ahai's third sword.

Then of course there's the legend of how the first dragons were born when the sun and moon kissed and the moon cracked/tore as a result.

And Catelyn screaming as she tears at her face when Robb is killed.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, YOVMO said:

So I have this great book with etymologies going all the way back to the indo-european roots. I was flipping through it and I realized something. So, here is the thing. Either it is the case that @Seams already knows this or it is the case that the can of worms I am about to open will be nigh bottomless. If the former, I am sorry for the repeat. If the later, well, I am pretty sure I will win some form of award for making a person's head explode through the internet...a super power I always really wanted. So without further ado, here goes:

I happen to be looking up the word Hymen. Hymen comes from the greek where it is spelt the same, hymen and means "membrane" and is specifically, as it is in english, related to the virginal membrane. The root of this in the indo-european is syumen -- Syu- means "to bind or sew" and is also the Indo European root of the word Seam. There is a Greek god also named Hymen (of the same root Syu- who is the god of marriage (Syu meaning Sew or Seam together) and the God hymen would translate roughly to either "the joiner" or "one who sews"

Again, Sorry to Seams if this is already known information. However, having read it I figured if it isn't known information it would be desired information. After all, themes of virginity in asoiaf being inexorably linked to sewing and seams and joining by theoretical, etymologically and mythology opens up a whole new world of interpretation. 

Oh, one last thing. That root Syu- is also the root of "Hymn" which when removed from the biblical context simply means a "song of heroes" 

 

Enjoy!

Yes, the god of marriage was called Hymen and its root meaning is not so much the hymen of a woman, but "to bind" or "to sew". Some marriage rituals involve "binding" rituals where the couple's hands or wrists or ankles are tied together (handfasting). Meanwhile in Dutch a term used to mean "fucking" = "naaien" (which is also Dutch for "sowing"). In that expression it's the man who's "sowing" the woman. So, sowing and binding is linked ritualistically to marriage, linguistically to sex.

[YOVMO]

24 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Speaking of agony, ecstasy, cries, tears, etc.  Don't forget Nissa Nissa's cry of ecstasy as her heart was pierced by Azor Ahai's third sword.

Then of course there's the legend of how the first dragons were born when the sun and moon kissed and the moon cracked/tore as a result.

And Catelyn screaming as she tears at her face when Robb is killed.

Three excellent point outs here. In the first there is the piercing metaphor which goes along with the piercing of the hymen which is very nice. 

[ravenous reader]

3 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Are you suggesting that it is in any way abnormal to lay in bed on a saturday morning and flip through a 2500 page book of etymologies going back to into-european roots and investigate the word "hymen"?

Am I on the wrong board? Let me check the URL.

Its relative (ab)normality notwithstanding, I'll confirm I'm subject to conducting the same sort of 'researches'...

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The abyss has already stared back into me.

And what would Herr Nietzsche have to say about that?

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

And perhaps he was not so wrong. Almost a decade had passed since the Laughing Lion headed out from Lannisport, and Gerion had never returned. The men Lord Tywin sent to seek after him had traced his course as far as Volantis, where half his crew had deserted him and he had bought slaves to replace them. No free man would willingly sign aboard a ship whose captain spoke openly of his intent to sail into the Smoking Sea. "So those are fires of the Fourteen Flames we're seeing, reflected on the clouds?"

"Fourteen or fourteen thousand. What man dares count them? It is not wise for mortals to look too deeply at those fires, my friend. Those are the fires of god's own wrath, and no human flame can match them. We are small creatures, men."

"Some smaller than others." Valyria. It was written that on the day of Doom every hill for five hundred miles had split asunder to fill the air with ash and smoke and fire, blazes so hot and hungry that even the dragons in the sky were engulfed and consumed. Great rents had opened in the earth, swallowing palaces, temples, entire towns. Lakes boiled or turned to acid, mountains burst, fiery fountains spewed molten rock a thousand feet into the air, red clouds rained down dragonglass and the black blood of demons, and to the north the ground splintered and collapsed and fell in on itself and an angry sea came rushing in. The proudest city in all the world was gone in an instant, its fabled empire vanished in a day, the Lands of the Long Summer scorched and drowned and blighted.

The hills 'split asunder' are a recapitulation of the membrane tearing.  The earth giving birth.

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Well done...pun intended.

The tears are welling up in my eyes for mirth...

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Exactly RR. That idea of opposite motions creating a balance is very nicely laid out in the extant fragments of Heraclitus and the subsequent scholarship on it.

Tell us more...(P.S.  I'd love it if you dropped some quotes/poems -- it can be philosophy if you like -- on my 'Poems and sundry quotes' thread!)

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Almost too good to be true.

I think it is rather 'too good to be true'...  It's all that alliteration that subdues the senses, as it enchants...It's a literary device overused by many, including notably G--RR--M...Why do you think I call myself 'RR'?!

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or the song of ice and fire?

Indeed.

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I love your imagery. So visceral. I really enjoyed reading this.

Thanks!  

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This is the first thing that sprung to my mind as well. TBH I was so excited at my find that I didn't really write anything out. Just laid it out there as is. But yes, the birth, rebirth, crossing boundaries is big...along with other boundaries being crossed...less natural ones...like the wights.

Oh definitely.  'Seams' or 'hymens' or 'fells', etc. represent major nexi in the magical landscape, constituting portals or bridges to the 'underworld' or 'otherworld' -- bridging life and death.  That's why I contend when Ned predicts of Bran -- when he and Cat are discussing Bran's destiny in the Winterfell godswood right at the beginning of the whole saga-- that Bran is the one to 'bridge that distance,' the subtext suggests we're not talking about an ordinary bridge here.  I'd wager it's a highly paranormal one, probably involving major warps of time and space -- probably even a spaceflight.  

By the way, 'warp' weaves  into our fabric/sewing motif which @Seams has so artfully deconstructed on the 'Puns and wordplay' thread.  @YOVMO-- Wasn't it you who brought to our attention that a 'heddle' as in Marsha Heddle etc. is a weaving apparatus, making the inn at the 'Crossroads' over which she presides another major nexus?

Tyrion also undergoes a symbolic rebirth represented by the near-drowning and the bridge of dreams.  You might enjoy my former musings surrounding that; in particular, the 'hymen' motif is present in the boat named 'the shy maid' as well as the bridge representing a critical threshold between worlds (going under the bridge is similar to going through a tunnel, you get my drift..:

On 10/2/2016 at 6:37 PM, ravenous reader said:

 

On 9/30/2016 at 3:52 PM, @Blackfyre Bastard said:

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I'm currently re-reading ADwD, I just revisited this chapter and wanted to give my opinion. To me is actually a wormhole rather than a time loop.

The Shy Maid and its crew are travelling downriver with the current and they pass under a bridge full of stonemen. Then the crew starts an argument and before they know it (and unadvertedly to them), they are upriver from the bridge again. They didn't go back in time, time flowed exactly the same for them as for the stonemen atop the bridge, who now have a second chance to jump aboard the poleboat and attack its occupants.

@ravenous reader said:  

That is a great catch!  In the context of your mentioning a 'wormhole,' which seemed to be activated by crossing under the bridge in your example, it's interesting that another name for such a wormhole is a bridge, namely the Einstein-Rosen bridge (also known as a Schwarzschild wormhole) connecting two universes.  In German, the name 'Einstein' translates as 'one' + 'stone' -- a bridge of stone men? ('Rosen' means roses; and 'Schwarzschild' means black + shield).  Undoubtedly, any reference to time travel or wormholes would be incomplete without mentioning at least one particular stone man -- Albert Einstein!  It gets even cleverer, since in addition to being a noun, 'einstein(en)' is a verb, meaning to turn to stone, or petrify, which is exactly what happens with greyscale:

I don't know much about wormholes technically, perhaps you can fill me in, but I'm presuming the bridge might represent the wormhole itself, or alternatively crossing under the bridge could represent successfully traversing the 'event horizon.'

ETA:  The tunnels traversing the realm beneath the Wall are also called 'wormways' and significantly are associated with the library, the repository of knowledge, in which Sam sequesters himself with the gray mouse in order to do some 'down-delving' to get at the secrets of the Others:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV

Careful of the rats, my lord." Dolorous Edd led Jon down the steps, a lantern in one hand. "They make an awful squeal if you step on them. My mother used to make a similar sound when I was a boy. She must have had some rat in her, now that I think of it. Brown hair, beady little eyes, liked cheese. Might be she had a tail too, I never looked to see."

All of Castle Black was connected underground by a maze of tunnels that the brothers called the wormways. It was dark and gloomy underneath the earth, so the wormways were little used in summer, but when the winter winds began to blow and the snows began to fall, the tunnels became the quickest way to move about the castle

 

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Oh man, I have a feeling this is going to be rich. I am going to spend some time on search of ice and fire looking for natality themes.

Ha ha.  That search is bound to bear fruit.  I have one for you, which I've previously mentioned, namely to do with the 'caul', whereby opening ones 'third eye' is likened to a midwife removing the caul -- or amniotic sac remnant -- clinging to the face of a newborn baby.  This is a highly unusual occurrence in births, and was thought according to superstition to be a lucky omen, pointing to those unusually gifted with the 'sight,' prophecy, etc.  Additionally, 'caul' evokes the wedding veil or hymenal membrane of a virginal bride, as well as all those symbolic veils or curtains throughout the text, e.g. 'the curtain of light at the end of the world,' which Bran successfully penetrates, shall we say? 

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

"Will it turn my lips blue?"

"One flute will serve only to unstop your ears and dissolve the caul from off your eyes, so that you may hear and see the truths that will be laid before you."

Dany raised the glass to her lips. The first sip tasted like ink and spoiled meat, foul, but when she swallowed it seemed to come to life within her. She could feel tendrils spreading through her chest, like fingers of fire coiling around her heart, and on her tongue was a taste like honey and anise and cream, like mother's milk and Drogo's seed, like red meat and hot blood and molten gold. It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them . . . and then the glass was empty.

This is the shade of the evening Dany drinks at the threshold of the House of the Undying; analogous to Bran's weirwood bole/bowl.

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A Storm of Swords - Daenerys V

"Why are you here?" Dany demanded of him. "If Robert sent you to kill me, why did you save my life?" He served the Usurper. He betrayed Rhaegar's memory, and abandoned Viserys to live and die in exile. Yet if he wanted me dead, he need only have stood aside . . . "I want the whole truth now, on your honor as a knight. Are you the Usurper's man, or mine?"

"Yours, if you will have me." Ser Barristan had tears in his eyes. "I took Robert's pardon, aye. I served him in Kingsguard and council. Served with the Kingslayer and others near as bad, who soiled the white cloak I wore. Nothing will excuse that. I might be serving in King's Landing still if the vile boy upon the Iron Throne had not cast me aside, it shames me to admit. But when he took the cloak that the White Bull had draped about my shoulders, and sent men to kill me that selfsame day, it was as though he'd ripped a caul off my eyes. That was when I knew I must find my true king, and die in his service—"

"I can grant that wish," Ser Jorah said darkly.

The rebirth of Barristan Selmy...from 'Discarded Knight' to 'Kingbreaker' to 'Queen's Hand'?  The soiled knight with the soiled white cloak is also reminiscent of the stain attendant with losing ones innocence, naivete, 'virginity' -- but also with opening ones eyes afresh.

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I have taken Ygritte's claim to have a double meaning. The face value of it is the blood of the wildlings spilled in battles with the NW. However, even though she doesn't fully comprehend what she is saying the way many people who repeat old truisms which are many, many generations old, is that the magic that raised the wall is blood magic.

That's the problem arguing about GRRM's intention -- literal bleeds into figurative and vice versa; so where is the boundary according to which we may differentiate which elements to take literally and which figuratively?  That's why I try not to become too attached to my interpretations to the point of pedantry.  I'm in agreement with you regarding the symbolism of blood magic, a blood price paid for entry and egress from the Wall.  However, as in the case of other focal structures such as Harrenhal in which the blood in the walls was a more literal phenomenon in addition to being figurative (Besides Harren's blood mortar construction, @Isobel Harper has also highlighted that Gorgon Qoherys was castrated and killed there), the 'blood in the walls' of the Wall also has a more literal component.  Namely, the 79 sentinels buried alive in the ice -- or more poetically planted like seeds in specially-prepared holes or pockets in the Wall (metaphor courtesy @LmL).

3 hours ago, YOVMO said:

If Bran is the head of the penis would that make Jamie a mohel for clipping him at the beginning of his journey? There are a lot of places to go with this one me thinks.

'A lot of places to go,' should we dare...'Fools rush in where angels fear to tread...'?

My 'covenant of circumcision' knowledge is limited, but from what I can gather it may be significant that the rite is supposed to take place on the 8th day after birth, not so?  Perhaps coincidental, but wasn't Bran also 8 years old when he fell from the tower in his initiation into an eerie as-of-yet-unclearly-elucidated 'covenant,' 'pact,' or 'promise' which he was fatalistically bound to enact?  Then it's been highlighted on the Heretic 'Underworld' thread that the Night Fort is an octagonal -- i.e. that number '8' again -- domed structure constructed around a well, which @Frey family reunion has given religious connotations by linking it to other such 'real-world' religious sites also using octagonal architecture, such as the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount.  Specifically, he highlighted the sacrificial aspect of the venue (Abraham and Isaac), the rock in question symbolizing an altar -- at its most basic, an 'altar' is basically a sanctified dining table or slaughter block -- which might link up with the 'kitchen' of the Night Fort and the Rat King's culinary practices.  In this context, one might also think of the Western Wall or 'wailing wall' in the vicinity (evoking 'widow's wail' and birth/death cry as well as the fictional Wall).

As far as Jaime being a 'mohel' -- that's the authorized practitioner of the circumcision, according to Jewish tradition -- I'm more inclined to think of Cersei in that role.  She is a practitioner par excellence in the art of male emasculation, driven by her overweening ambition and penis envy; for example, she symbolically castrates Jaime here:

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime IX

"You had best go, Cersei. You're making me angry."

"Oh, an angry cripple. How terrifying." She laughed. "A pity Lord Tywin Lannister never had a son. I could have been the heir he wanted, but I lacked the cock. And speaking of such, best tuck yours away, brother. It looks rather sad and small, hanging from your breeches like that."

When she was gone Jaime took her advice, fumbling one-handed at his laces. He felt a bone-deep ache in his phantom fingers. I've lost a hand, a father, a son, a sister, and a lover, and soon enough I will lose a brother. And yet they keep telling me House Lannister won this war.

Also, it's long been my opinion that Cersei instigated Bran's fall from the tower.  Remember, the last thing Jaime did before chucking Bran was look over to Cersei -- the boss and high priest of the affair -- with 'loathing', as if he were being directed by her will, against his own will.  According to your 'circumcision analogy,' Jaime acted as her disembodied 'sword hand' or blade, which she however wielded.  That's what Jaime's 'redemption arc' is all about -- reclaiming his hand, blade, sword, penis, and finally heart and brain for his own use, so that he's symbolically worthy of wielding 'Dawn' instead of being a mindless tool (and fool) of another!

3 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

That's still not so weird compared to what I'm doing ATM. (Hint: that's connected to literature and abnormal)

The 'Amber Compendium' research -- if that's what you mean -- in itself is not 'weird'!  What's weird, however, is spending so much time with 'weirdos' like us discussing the arcane celestial, especially presided over by a guy who's fond of referring to himself as 'Lucifer'...!  

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, the god of marriage was called Hymen and its root meaning is not so much the hymen of a woman, but "to bind" or "to sew". Some marriage rituals involve "binding" rituals where the couple's hands or wrists or ankles are tied together (handfasting). Meanwhile in Dutch a term used to mean "fucking" = "naaien" (which is also Dutch for "sowing"). In that expression it's the man who's "sowing" the woman. So, sowing and binding is linked ritualistically to marriage, linguistically to sex.

Yes, and the paradox @YOVMO and I were discussing above is that in order to bind something, something must be pierced.  So, sewing a seam involves simultaneously disturbing the integrity of the selfsame fabric one seeks to bind -- via the needle's piercing for example, or the scissors which neatens and aligns the frayed/uneven edges of the fabric.

2 hours ago, YOVMO said:

the piercing metaphor which goes along with the piercing of the hymen which is very nice. 

Yes the sewing needle or sowing hoe or the three-eyed crow's beak hammering the path for the implantation of the seed representing Bran's third eye, etc...

There's also the 'just maid' which is GRRM's witty inversion; instead of the woman being pierced, it's the woman -- a 'maid' i.e. a virgin -- doing the piercing:

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne IV

"Ser Gallawho of What?" He snorted. "Never heard o' him. Why was he so bloody perfect?"

"Ser Galladon was a champion of such valor that the Maiden herself lost her heart to him. She gave him an enchanted sword as a token of her love. The Just Maid, it was called. No common sword could check her, nor any shield withstand her kiss. Ser Galladon bore the Just Maid proudly, but only thrice did he unsheathe her. He would not use the Maid against a mortal man, for she was so potent as to make any fight unfair."

 

[Seams]

6 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I am pretty sure I will win some form of award for making a person's head explode through the internet...a super power I always really wanted.

Damn you, YOVMO! Every time my head explodes, I have to pick up all the brain matter and wash off the dog hair before putting it back into place. I would ask Qyburn to help again but, last time, he started asking weird questions about whether any of the neighbors are puppeteers or handmaids, and if there was a lot of space where he could work in my basement.

I did know that Hymen was the god of marriage, as well as part of the female anatomy, but hadn't thought about the richness this adds to the symbolism in the books. The Syu- root is news to me, too. Nice catch!

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Yes, and the paradox @YOVMO and I were discussing above is that in order to bind something, something must be pierced.  So, sewing a seam involves simultaneously disturbing the integrity of the selfsame fabric one seeks to bind -- via the needle's piercing for example, or the scissors which neatens and aligns the frayed/uneven edges of the fabric.

Yes the sewing needle or sowing hoe or the three-eyed crow's beak hammering the path for the implantation of the seed representing Bran's third eye, etc...

This might help to create a broader context for that important opening scene where Theon "brings forth" the sword Ice - living up to the "Iron Born" cultural identity by symbolically giving birth to the sword. So the sword is both a phallic symbol and, in this case, a baby; both a piercing tool (stick 'em with the pointy end) and the fruit of a union of two people.

I wonder if the "pierced hymen" and Iron Born symbolism also begins to explain the magic of Thoros of Myr. Thoros was the first man over the wall at Pyke when Robert and Ned put down Balon Greyjoy's rebellion. If there is something magical about the ability of the Iron Islanders to give birth to weapons, Thoros may be the baby daddy of some special weapon we have not yet seen.

The fact that the Black Gate can be opened only by a member of the Night's Watch also makes sense here, as there must be a "sword in the darkness" to accomplish the necessary piercing of the membrane.

There's a lot more to ponder about these images but, speaking of swords, I have a new idea for rr's poetry thread so I'll head there now.

[ravenous reader]

3 hours ago, Seams said:

Damn you, YOVMO! Every time my head explodes, I have to pick up all the brain matter and wash off the dog hair before putting it back into place. I would ask Qyburn to help again but, last time, he started asking weird questions about whether any of the neighbors are puppeteers or handmaids, and if there was a lot of space where he could work in my basement.

I did know that Hymen was the god of marriage, as well as part of the female anatomy, but hadn't thought about the richness this adds to the symbolism in the books. The Syu- root is news to me, too. Nice catch!

This might help to create a broader context for that important opening scene where Theon "brings forth" the sword Ice - living up to the "Iron Born" cultural identity by symbolically giving birth to the sword. So the sword is both a phallic symbol and, in this case, a baby; both a piercing tool (stick 'em with the pointy end) and the fruit of a union of two people.

Yes, I was thinking of you and Theon's 'midwifery' while writing.

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I wonder if the "pierced hymen" and Iron Born symbolism also begins to explain the magic of Thoros of Myr. Thoros was the first man over the wall at Pyke when Robert and Ned put down Balon Greyjoy's rebellion. If there is something magical about the ability of the Iron Islanders to give birth to weapons, Thoros may be the baby daddy of some special weapon we have not yet seen.

Going under and over, while penetrating and binding, mimics the action of the sewing needle.

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The fact that the Black Gate can be opened only by a member of the Night's Watch also makes sense here, as there must be a "sword in the darkness" to accomplish the necessary piercing of the membrane.

Priceless!

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There's a lot more to ponder about these images but, speaking of swords, I have a new idea for rr's poetry thread so I'll head there now.

Ooh, goody -- looking forward!  

[YOVMO]

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Its relative (ab)normality notwithstanding, I'll confirm I'm subject to conducting the same sort of 'researches'...

And what would Herr Nietzsche have to say about that?

Actually, Nietzsche would have a lot to say about it. Remember, he wasn't a philosopher by trade but a classical philologist. So this would be right up his alley. AA (or AAR) could very well stand in for the frequently cited by far less frequently understood concept of the overman. Further, if you read Zarathustra in German there is so much great word play with uber and unter (over and under) that it is absolutely magnificent. That isn't even getting into Nietzsche's "philosophy with a hammer" and how it might relate to Robert or, better yet, how Robert is the classical Lion in the Nietzschean schema whereas  Tyrion has evolved away from the lion stage. Ooooh, I could do Nietzsche with asoiaf all the live long day.

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The hills 'split asunder' are a recapitulation of the membrane tearing.  The earth giving birth.

I think it is pretty clear that grrm has thoroughly implanted the idea of birth, death and rebirth into this story both symbolically (Jorah, Probably the Hound, Tyrion, Sam, Jamie, probably Lem, etc. etc. etc probably every character in the books) as well as literally (Dany, Jon, LSH, Beric, wights, ungregor) and also in objects (Ice becoming WW and OK and a million other things). The idea that this would have its absolute zenith at the very spot that seems to seam the seemingly "good" from the seemingly "bad" would not be a surprise. Bran has been going through a transformation since he "fell" (intentional use of fell) from the high tower.....remember how old nan begins the story of the long night "a winter fell that was..." and that transformation in some ways included the loss of his family, the razing of winterfell, learning to use his powers as a warg,  the trip to the wall and here, at the Nightfort, where the Night's King reigned with his pale bride, Bran finally dies and is reborn. The salt that he tastes while going through the black gate is even more telling when you think about the fact that just before Bran was telling the story of the rat king and explaining the importance of guest right to the gods.....not to men, but to the gods...so you have the amnionic fluid, the salt, the guest rights given by the old gods to bran as he enters their domain, north of the wall, along with Bran's rebirth which, I would argue, is far more an "Ice" parallel to Dany's "Fire" rebirth than anything that Jon might pull off. Now reborn he is on his way to his new adulthood under the tutelage of BR.

The torn membrane and Hymen as the Sewer of Seams makes it even more interesting and plays right back to the balance of opposites we spoke about before. In being born and tearing the hole in the seam Bran is reborn (amidst salt for sure would have to think if there is smoke involved I can't seem to recall off hand) as the hero who can once again sew up the seam.

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The tears are welling up in my eyes for mirth...

How do they taste?

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Tell us more...(P.S.  I'd love it if you dropped some quotes/poems -- it can be philosophy if you like -- on my 'Poems and sundry quotes' thread!)

You know, I have thought so many times about adding to that and fear I may just get a little too rambly. 

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I think it is rather 'too good to be true'...  It's all that alliteration that subdues the senses, as it enchants...It's a literary device overused by many, including notably G--RR--M...Why do you think I call myself 'RR'?!

Very nice. I didn't pick up on that. 

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Indeed.

Thanks!  

Oh definitely.  'Seams' or 'hymens' or 'fells', etc. represent major nexi in the magical landscape, constituting portals or bridges to the 'underworld' or 'otherworld' -- bridging life and death.  That's why I contend when Ned predicts of Bran -- when he and Cat are discussing Bran's destiny in the Winterfell godswood right at the beginning of the whole saga-- that Bran is the one to 'bridge that distance,' the subtext suggests we're not talking about an ordinary bridge here.  I'd wager it's a highly paranormal one, probably involving major warps of time and space -- probably even a spaceflight.  

The fact that bridge is used as both verb and noun in a tricksy way very often here is, I would say, beyond debate. That bran is both going to bridge a divide and is going to be the bridge of a divide seems fairly clear. The question is if they will both be the same divide.

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By the way, 'warp' weaves  into our fabric/sewing motif which @Seams has so artfully deconstructed on the 'Puns and wordplay' thread.  @YOVMO-- Wasn't it you who brought to our attention that a 'heddle' as in Marsha Heddle etc. is a weaving apparatus, making the inn at the 'Crossroads' over which she presides another major nexus?

Yes, I was the one who pulled out Heddle. I was stupid proud of picking that one up. lol. Also, the sign which has been repurposed at that inn along with the family of the original proprietors also have a lot of high hanging though quite ripe fruit.

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Tyrion also undergoes a symbolic rebirth represented by the near-drowning and the bridge of dreams.  You might enjoy my former musings surrounding that; in particular, the 'hymen' motif is present in the boat named 'the shy maid' as well as the bridge representing a critical threshold between worlds (going under the bridge is similar to going through a tunnel, you get my drift..:

I hadn't considered "the shy maid" and, of course, our mysterious septa.

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ETA:  The tunnels traversing the realm beneath the Wall are also called 'wormways' and significantly are associated with the library, the repository of knowledge, in which Sam sequesters himself with the gray mouse in order to do some 'down-delving' to get at the secrets of the Others:

Wormways is especially interesting because "worm" comes from the old english "wyrm" which is a dragon.

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Ha ha.  That search is bound to bear fruit.  I have one for you, which I've previously mentioned, namely to do with the 'caul', whereby opening ones 'third eye' is likened to a midwife removing the caul -- or amniotic sac remnant -- clinging to the face of a newborn baby.  This is a highly unusual occurrence in births, and was thought according to superstition to be a lucky omen, pointing to those unusually gifted with the 'sight,' prophecy, etc.  

Interesting. the actually process by which small humans are brought into this world is one that is largely lost on me. I basically understand that it has something to do with birds, and bees and possibly a stork and maybe santa claus. I will have to look into this.

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Additionally, 'caul' evokes the wedding veil or hymenal membrane of a virginal bride, as well as all those symbolic veils or curtains throughout the text, e.g. 'the curtain of light at the end of the world,' which Bran successfully penetrates, shall we say? 

This is the shade of the evening Dany drinks at the threshold of the House of the Undying; analogous to Bran's weirwood bole/bowl.

Shade is also a spirit....as in the shades of the dead kings in the crypts which are no longer imprisoned because the swords on the laps have been removed or destroyed or faded with time (or, if you ask me, have rusted away because the magic of the COTF was reminded when Tohren bent the knee. Turns out, 300 years is roughly how long it would take a sword to rust away so I am thinking they were totally pristine as the Crypts were enchanted by the children but as soon as there was no longer a King in the North that deal was invalidated. This accounts too for a lot of the wear and tear that has happened in many parts of Winterfell as well as the Nightfort.

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The rebirth of Barristan Selmy...from 'Discarded Knight' to 'Kingbreaker' to 'Queen's Hand'?  The soiled knight with the soiled white cloak is also reminiscent of the stain attendant with losing ones innocence, naivete, 'virginity' -- but also with opening ones eyes afresh.

That's the problem arguing about GRRM's intention -- literal bleeds into figurative and vice versa; so where is the boundary according to which we may differentiate which elements to take literally and which figuratively?

Fair waring here: I side with the hermeneutic philosophers on this one. GRRMs intentions are secondary to the interpretation and reinterpretation of the work over time. Think of any author...Shakespeare, Dostoyevsky, Plato, Brad Easton Ellis, whoever wrote the scripts for saved by the bell.....there is no way that all of the meaning that has been read into their stories were intended -- simply impossible. You could say the same of the constitution of the US and the bill of rights. Books and documents are living and evolving creatures. Hopefully George will finish this series and we will have a complete project and meaning will constantly be added over the years. Absolutely impossible for all of it to have been intended by george but that, in my opinion, doesn't make it any less valid.

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  That's why I try not to become too attached to my interpretations to the point of pedantry.

As long as you remember that nothing is wrong or right...it is thinking that makes it so to paraphrase the bard.

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 I'm in agreement with you regarding the symbolism of blood magic, a blood price paid for entry and egress from the Wall.  However, as in the case of other focal structures such as Harrenhal in which the blood in the walls was a more literal phenomenon in addition to being figurative (Besides Harren's blood mortar construction, @Isobel Harper has also highlighted that Gorgon Qoherys was castrated and killed there), the 'blood in the walls' of the Wall also has a more literal component.  Namely, the 79 sentinels buried alive in the ice -- or more poetically planted like seeds in specially-prepared holes or pockets in the Wall (metaphor courtesy @LmL).

Every time i think of the sentinels my mind goes into hyper drive. I have a feeling we have not seen the end of them. 

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'A lot of places to go,' should we dare...'Fools rush in where angels fear to tread...'?

If fools rush in where angels fear to tread then a fool I shall be. Better to be a fool in the service of a noble cause than to be an angel who is pure from only fear. Back to billy shakes, a coward dies a thousand time....a hero but only once.

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My 'covenant of circumcision' knowledge is limited, but from what I can gather it may be significant that the rite is supposed to take place on the 8th day after birth, not so?  Perhaps coincidental, but wasn't Bran also 8 years old when he fell from the tower in his initiation into an eerie as-of-yet-unclearly-elucidated 'covenant,' 'pact,' or 'promise' which he was fatalistically bound to enact?  

Holy Guacamole that is good stuff. 

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Then it's been highlighted on the Heretic 'Underworld' thread that the Night Fort is an octagonal -- i.e. that number '8' again -- domed structure constructed around a well, which @Frey family reunion has given religious connotations by linking it to other such 'real-world' religious sites also using octagonal architecture, such as the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount.  Specifically, he highlighted the sacrificial aspect of the venue (Abraham and Isaac), the rock in question symbolizing an altar

Yes, I read this with great delight. I think that the sacrificial aspect of Abraham and Issac story is a fantastic one. Abraham almost 1 to 1 corresponds with Garth Greenhands in my opinion. I think there is a lot of biblical themes running through our story.

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 -- at its most basic, an 'altar' is basically a sanctified dining table or slaughter block -- which might link up with the 'kitchen' of the Night Fort and the Rat King's culinary practices.  In this context, one might also think of the Western Wall or 'wailing wall' in the vicinity (evoking 'widow's wail' and birth/death cry as well as the fictional Wall).

If you know anything of the Wailing Wall mythos there are some who believe that it literally is ground zero for the seam between the realm of man and the realm of god.

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As far as Jaime being a 'mohel' -- that's the authorized practitioner of the circumcision, according to Jewish tradition -- I'm more inclined to think of Cersei in that role.  She is a practitioner par excellence in the art of male emasculation, driven by her overweening ambition and penis envy; for example, she symbolically castrates Jaime here:

Yes, sorry I didn't see that. Absolutely correct.  Only not a mohel, by a mohalot....there is president  for females to perform circumcision . So Jamie would be her Izmel.

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Also, it's long been my opinion that Cersei instigated Bran's fall from the tower.  Remember, the last thing Jaime did before chucking Bran was look over to Cersei -- the boss and high priest of the affair -- with 'loathing', as if he were being directed by her will, against his own will.  According to your 'circumcision analogy,' Jaime acted as her disembodied 'sword hand' or blade, which she however wielded.  That's what Jaime's 'redemption arc' is all about -- reclaiming his hand, blade, sword, penis, and finally heart and brain for his own use, so that he's symbolically worthy of wielding 'Dawn' instead of being a mindless tool (and fool) of another!

The 'Amber Compendium' research -- if that's what you mean -- in itself is not 'weird'!  What's weird, however, is spending so much time with 'weirdos' like us discussing the arcane celestial, especially presided over by a guy who's fond of referring to himself as 'Lucifer'...!  

Remember what the word lucifer means.....it literally translates to "light bringer"

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Yes, and the paradox @YOVMO and I were discussing above is that in order to bind something, something must be pierced.  So, sewing a seam involves simultaneously disturbing the integrity of the selfsame fabric one seeks to bind -- via the needle's piercing for example, or the scissors which neatens and aligns the frayed/uneven edges of the fabric.

Yes the sewing needle or sowing hoe or the three-eyed crow's beak hammering the path for the implantation of the seed representing Bran's third eye, etc...

There's also the 'just maid' which is GRRM's witty inversion; instead of the woman being pierced, it's the woman -- a 'maid' i.e. a virgin -- doing the piercing:

 

the use of maid/maiden/maidenhead is very significant...especially if with what I have today about the word hymen can be applied to uses of maiden head.

3 hours ago, Seams said:

Damn you, YOVMO! Every time my head explodes, I have to pick up all the brain matter and wash off the dog hair before putting it back into place. I would ask Qyburn to help again but, last time, he started asking weird questions about whether any of the neighbors are puppeteers or handmaids, and if there was a lot of space where he could work in my basement.

Win!

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I did know that Hymen was the god of marriage, as well as part of the female anatomy, but hadn't thought about the richness this adds to the symbolism in the books. The Syu- root is news to me, too. Nice catch!

Thank you. High praise.

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The fact that the Black Gate can be opened only by a member of the Night's Watch also makes sense here, as there must be a "sword in the darkness" to accomplish the necessary piercing of the membrane.

Wow...excellent this.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Where does everyone stand on the interpretation of Lightbringer being a child, and three attempts at forging corresponding to three heads of the dragon?