NFL Divisional Playoffs: 3 games and Brady

[James Arryn]

Kirchner withdraws from 9ers GM consideration, talk is Cable will do likewise soon, both apparently feel they are just being used as leverage in Shanahan negotiations. McDaniels apparently's given reasons for withdrawing (family) are also reportedly as being sincere, though I personally have real doubts. Either way, it's all fine and good IF Shanahan signs, but if he changes his mind the Niners might wind up shambling for scraps like last year. Situation feeling very fragile to me.

[Rhom]

19 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Kirchner withdraws from 9ers GM consideration, talk is Cable will do likewise soon, both apparently feel they are just being used as leverage in Shanahan negotiations. McDaniels apparently's given reasons for withdrawing (family) are also reportedly as being sincere, though I personally have real doubts. Either way, it's all fine and good IF Shanahan signs, but if he changes his mind the Niners might wind up shambling for scraps like last year. Situation feeling very fragile to me.

It does... but Schefter just reported that the Niners plan to offer Shanahan.

Now we just hope he accepts!

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 Little NFL/Politics thread crossover...

 

 

[Jaime L]

37 minutes ago, Rhom said:

It does... but Schefter just reported that the Niners plan to offer Shanahan.

Now we just hope he accepts!

Can't be easy going from a team with Matt Ryan, Julio Jones, Taylor Gabriel, Devonta Freeman and Tevin Coleman to one with Carlos Hyde and......that tuna fish sandwich Jim Tomsula left in the equipment shed on the chance he got evicted from the Storage Facility he was living in.

But regardless it's a great get if he does end up signing on. Just know, the second y'all come after Kirk Cousins, I'm burning Levis stadium to the ground. 

[James Arryn]

2 hours ago, Jaime L said:

Can't be easy going from a team with Matt Ryan, Julio Jones, Taylor Gabriel, Devonta Freeman and Tevin Coleman to one with Carlos Hyde and......that tuna fish sandwich Jim Tomsula left in the equipment shed on the chance he got evicted from the Storage Facility he was living in.

But regardless it's a great get if he does end up signing on. Just know, the second y'all come after Kirk Cousins, I'm burning Levis stadium to the ground. 

That tuna fish sandwich will be excellent if it ever recovers from the torn ACL.

Cousins...while I do enjoy players with spree-killer eyes, I'm still not sold on him, so I hope we're both satisfied with where that goes. Of course I don't really like any qb's in this draft class either. Maybe I'm hoping for Rosen.

[Jaime L]

27 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

That tuna fish sandwich will be excellent if it ever recovers from the torn ACL.

Cousins...while I do enjoy players with spree-killer eyes, I'm still not sold on him, so I hope we're both satisfied with where that goes. Of course I don't really like any qb's in this draft class either. Maybe I'm hoping for Rosen.

Yeah to be honest I'm not completely sold on him either but the Skins offense has a bunch of talent and I hate to turn it over to someone else who is likely to be worse. So sick of this step forward, step back bullshit. Even missing the playoffs they were a better team this year than last. And the possibility of 3 winning seasons in a row is opulence I can't even imagine. 

And yeah Cousins doesn't make sense for where the 49ers are in their rebuild. Not sure who the 49ers GM is but if I hired Kyle Shanahan I'd trust that dude's instincts on who to draft even if it's some 4th round project while addressing other needs. 

[Guest]

Best QB of all time is so interesting and so hard to peg.  And I keep feeling steered back to the question of their situation.  Not only in the sense that it impacts how much they can win (like, couldn't anyone have won a lot with the Dallas teams Aikman had?) but also the debate over whether it's the situation that's so good or whether the QB is that legit (maybe Aikman is super underrated?).  

Rodgers has skills that are so off the charts that in his case there's little doubt.  That game-winning throw Sunday was one that almost no other QB, maybe literally no other QB, could have made.  I think the argument could be made that Rodgers' ceiling is the highest ever.  

But I would agree with upthread that he's got a lot to accomplish in not a lot of time to make a legit case for GOAT.  

Brady's resume is preposterous.  I cannot imagine ever seeing it equaled as it currently stands, and there is a not unreasonable chance that he will still add to it considerably.  But let's say for the sake of argument the relatively uncontroversial believe that Darth Hoodie is a super-elite, maybe best of all time, coach.  If that is the case ought we not downgrade Brady just a bit?  ETA:  Or maybe Brady is that good and Hoodie is overrated; round and round we go.

If McCarthy is a fool ought we not upgrade Rodgers just a bit?

I don't mean to make too much of a comparison between those two QB's; just spitballing on all of the angles on the fascinating question of greatest QB ever.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

15 minutes ago, Triskan said:

Best QB of all time is so interesting and so hard to peg.  And I keep feeling steered back to the question of their situation.  Not only in the sense that it impacts how much they can win (like, couldn't anyone have won a lot with the Dallas teams Aikman had?) but also the debate over whether it's the situation that's so good or whether the QB is that legit (maybe Aikman is super underrated?).  

Rodgers has skills that are so off the charts that in his case there's little doubt.  That game-winning throw Sunday was one that almost no other QB, maybe literally no other QB, could have made.  I think the argument could be made that Rodgers' ceiling is the highest ever.  

But I would agree with upthread that he's got a lot to accomplish in not a lot of time to make a legit case for GOAT.  

Brady's resume is preposterous.  I cannot imagine ever seeing it equaled as it currently stands, and there is a not unreasonable chance that he will still add to it considerably.  But let's say for the sake of argument the relatively uncontroversial believe that Darth Hoodie is a super-elite, maybe best of all time, coach.  If that is the case ought we not downgrade Brady just a bit?  ETA:  Or maybe Brady is that good and Hoodie is overrated; round and round we go.

If McCarthy is a fool ought we not upgrade Rodgers just a bit?

I don't mean to make too much of a comparison between those two QB's; just spitballing on all of the angles on the fascinating question of greatest QB ever.

I think it's fair to take a little something away from Tommy Watermelons and add a touch to Rodgers for the reasons you list but you still have a rather large gap there in terms of  dominance. I think Tommy owns it until A.Aron proves otherwise. And it pains me to say that.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I think it's fair to take a little something away from Tommy Watermelons and add a touch to Rodgers for the reasons you list but you still have a rather large gap there in terms of  dominance. I think Tommy owns it until A.Aron proves otherwise. And it pains me to say that.

For the record, I think that Tommy owns it too.  I think that even if one wants to weigh things like how much Hoodie was a factor Brady's career is just that remarkable.  

The only way Rodgers could match him would be if he was in conference title games and superb owls almost annually for the next five years by which he himself would be 39 or so.  

[James Arryn]

Unofficial word seems to be consolidating behind the idea that Shanahan is all but hired, officially put off until his season ends. So now I'm just bracing myself for the announcement that he's retiring from football.

 

edit; Jaime, agreed across the board. I'm ready to engage in faith here. 

W/r to best QB, my money's still on Joe, but in terms of Brady vs Rogers, I kinda think Kareem vs. Hakeem; the former has the better career, the latter was the better player, but both are up there. If I'm starting from scratch I take Rogers, if I'm voting HOF Brady gets my vote.

[JonSnow4President]

I think Rodgers now is better than Brady ever was.  However, Brady has been so good for so long, he's the GOAT to me.  Rodgers is the only QB I'd want before Brady if you made me build a team for a one year run right now.  (I mean, Prescott is GOAT, Cowboys Cowboys Cowboys!).  So if we're comparing them to piles of gold, Rodgers' is stacked slightly higher than Brady's.  However, Brady's is easily 3 times as wide and still almost as high.  

[dbunting]

I think you can really never say who an individual GOAT truly is in team sports. They are a part of a group and if that group doesn't come together just right then success doesn't happen. Belicheck wasn't the "hoodie" until he had Brady, until then he was a mid level coach and Brady was just a late round draft pick.

The era they play in has way more influence than is being talked about here. Imagine these same QB's were playing in the 70's - 80's when corners were actually allowed to play defense. Imagine Brady and Rodgers playing in an era where a defender is allowed to breathe on them without getting a 15 yard penalty. Game has changed way too much to compare people from different generations, hell almost can't do one decade to the next.

[Nictarion]

5 minutes ago, dbunting said:

I think you can really never say who an individual GOAT truly is in team sports. They are a part of a group and if that group doesn't come together just right then success doesn't happen. Belicheck wasn't the "hoodie" until he had Brady, until then he was a mid level coach and Brady was just a late round draft pick.

The era they play in has way more influence than is being talked about here. Imagine these same QB's were playing in the 70's - 80's when corners were actually allowed to play defense. Imagine Brady and Rodgers playing in an era where a defender is allowed to breathe on them without getting a 15 yard penalty. Game has changed way too much to compare people from different generations, hell almost can't do one decade to the next.

I think Wayne Gretzky is hands down the GOAT as far as hockey goes. Jordan for basketball. Football and Baseball are harder to pick that one player.

[James Arryn]

10 minutes ago, Nictarion said:

I think Wayne Gretzky is hands down the GOAT as far as hockey goes. Jordan for basketball. Football and Baseball are harder to pick that one player.

No, Jerry Rice is to football what Gretzky is to hockey. The numbers he put up are astonishing, and the gaps between he and the next best in several categories are just mind-blowing. 

[DanteGabriel]

20 minutes ago, dbunting said:

The era they play in has way more influence than is being talked about here. Imagine these same QB's were playing in the 70's - 80's when corners were actually allowed to play defense. Imagine Brady and Rodgers playing in an era where a defender is allowed to breathe on them without getting a 15 yard penalty. Game has changed way too much to compare people from different generations, hell almost can't do one decade to the next.

The trade-off is that those teams of the past were able to keep their best players, and there was no salary cap or real free agency. So, yes, offenses are coddled now (thanks, Peyton Manning!) but quarterbacks usually have to break in new teammates every year. So the challenges are different. I don't know which ultimately helps a QB more: consistent talent support or softer rules on the offense. Of course, Peyton Manning got the benefit of the softer rules and he had a GM that kept his best skill players around him for their peak years.

I think Belichick's achievement as a coach/GM in the salary cap era where he has to routinely get rid of good players before they become expensive is unambiguously more impressive than the achievements of great coaches in years past. And it's interesting that Belichick seems to have changed his approach to team construction as the league changed. He used to win with brutal, bullying defenses, and then when Polian got the rules changed to protect his expensive skill players, Belichick started focusing on offense -- bringing in Moss and Welker, then developing a two-TE attack, while the defense has receded in importance.

[Nictarion]

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

No, Jerry Rice is to football what Gretzky is to hockey. The numbers he put up are astonishing, and the gaps between he and the next best in several categories are just mind-blowing. 

I don't think it's nearly as clear cut as Gretzky or Jordan. I'm all too familiar with Rice's dominance though. My dad and uncle were at SB XXIII when he helped beat the Bengals.

[Rockroi]

34 minutes ago, Nictarion said:

I don't think it's nearly as clear cut as Gretzky or Jordan. I'm all too familiar with Rice's dominance though. My dad and uncle were at SB XXIII when he helped beat the Bengals.

Yeah.  Remember many people believe Jim Brown is the greatest football player of all time, not Rice.  Also, Lawrence Taylor was absurd.  

Regardless, I think Rodgers is playing at an elite-plus level right now.  I think, though, Brady in 2007 was better, but I don't know what the advanced metrics would say on that.  I will also say that I think Rodgers has the same "gift" that Brady does - most notably that their offensive weapons are not as good as their QB makes them (Rodgers had a couple of very good WRs; Brady had Moss and Gronk; every one else, the QB was significantly better than the weapon).  

Again, Rodgers is killing teams in the most dramatic ways possible, especially these last two games with an end-of-half Hail Mary and a game-stealing 35-yard completion on 3rd and twenty to set up a game-winning FG.  Also, Rodgers' regular-season record is pretty good too (IIRC its 90-45).  

At the same time, Brady has been consistently exceptional.  Just randomly looking at any point in Brady's career, Brady has either been lights-out in the playoffs, putting up stupendous numbers, or carrying a sub-optimal team into the playoffs (2005, 2006, 2011 - a superbowl season, 2013, 2015) or all of the above.  And his 2014 Superbowl game was insane- going 13-15, 165 yards and 2 TDs on the last two drives against a top-tier D.  And he threw for 50 Tds that one time.  

But I could point to Rodgers' Superbowl season and find all the times he looked like he was the King. 

Let me say that RIGHT NOW, Aaron Rodgers is the best QB in the NFL and he would be anyone's first choice to QB a team.  Brady's edge comes from the fact that at 39; that he's been doing it at a high level for so long and he's doing it right now at an absurd level. Brady, at 39, is, AT WORSE, the third best QB in the NFL.  

Could go either way. 

Anyway, let's make fun of Rodger Goodell. 

Rodger Goodell, who famously broke up a fight at a bar that nobody can corroborate in any way whatsoever, is now too scared to attend the AFC Championship game, pout of fear that he may have to hand a trophy over to people he doesn't like.  So, LAST WEEK, Goodell attended the Falcons game vs Detroit.  So, traditionally, the Commissioner does NOT attend a game hosted by the same team two weeks in a row.  So, it was pretty clear that Rodger SHOULD attend the AFC Championship game here in Foxboro.  BUT, Rodger, FOR SOME ODD REASON, will NOT attend the Pats-Steelers game but will, instead, GO BACK TO ATLANTA and attend the NFC Championship game.

What a strong, dedicated and fearless leader the NFL has. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

When Aaron throws a 50-70 yd (airtime) pass..........I dont think we can even call these Hail Mary's anymore, at least when Rodgers is doing it. Its simply part of his skill set. He can, and has completed these things on multiple occasions over a few seasons. These no longer qualify as throwing up a prayer, once in a eon, crazy, lucky plays (as it would be with almost any other NFL QB). 

When Rodgers does it is just part of the arsenal he can bring, and he has proved its not just luck, not just a prayer, but in actuality its part of the threat he poses and he has shown he can do it and complete those passes on multiple clutch game moments. When Aaron does a 50-70 yd in the air completion, I am no longer freaked the heck out, I'm like, "yep , thats what the dude can pull off, Ive seen this play before."

(Lions fan warning, here to testify, what others call the "Hail Mary", is simply Rodgers deep range, there is zero luck involved!!!!!!!)

[DireWolfSpirit]

Also wanted to add.......FUCK ROGER GOODELL!!!!!!!!

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 hour ago, Rockroi said:

Rodger Goodell, who famously broke up a fight at a bar that nobody can corroborate in any way whatsoever, is now too scared to attend the AFC Championship game, pout of fear that he may have to hand a trophy over to people he doesn't like.  So, LAST WEEK, Goodell attended the Falcons game vs Detroit.  So, traditionally, the Commissioner does NOT attend a game hosted by the same team two weeks in a row.  So, it was pretty clear that Rodger SHOULD attend the AFC Championship game here in Foxboro.  BUT, Rodger, FOR SOME ODD REASON, will NOT attend the Pats-Steelers game but will, instead, GO BACK TO ATLANTA and attend the NFC Championship game.

What a strong, dedicated and fearless leader the NFL has. 

Not to defend The Ginger Hammer, but I'd take Atl vs GB over Pats vs Steelers. That game is likely to be an insane display of non-stop razzle-dazzle. Not seeing much controversy here.