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How Sansa Takes Winterfell with a Winged Knight: Swapping a Hound for her own Little Bird


Sly Wren

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On January 19, 2017 at 3:58 PM, Nevets said:

Not happening.  Sansa is essentially being kept in the dark about current vents.  The only reason she heard about Jon's election  at all was because Myranda was testing her to see what her reaction would be.  And the election of the son of Eddard Stark, a well-known figure as LC of the Night's Watch, a prominent organization, is likely news everywhere.  Hell, even Arya has heard about it in Braavos.

But the news is getting to her anyways. Myranda seems like she's trying to figure out who Sansa really is--and got a BIG hint with her reaction to Jon Snow. 

I agree that Jon's election is big news--but so is a new lord of Winterfell marrying a Stark daughter given to him by the Lannisters. Even Lady Barbrey knows how people will react to hearing Arya crying:

"Not me," the Lady of Barrowton confessed, "but the rest, yes. Old Whoresbane is only here because the Freys hold the Greatjon captive. And do you imagine the Hornwood men have forgotten the Bastard's last marriage, and how his lady wife was left to starve, chewing her own fingers? What do you think passes through their heads when they hear the new bride weeping? Valiant Ned's precious little girl." Dance, The Turncloak.

She knows that people are NOT happy about Arya's treatment. If that news gets out on top of the news of the marriage--the Royces have access to information. And Maesters. Someone always tells. And once Myranda has that info, she seems the sort to use it.

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If she hears about "Arya"'s marriage, it will probably be Myranda testing her again.  In any case, her likely response would be to confront Baelish about it.  He would most likely tell her that it is really her friend Jeyne Poole, and try to spin it as a good thing for Jeyne, marrying a lord.

But does she seem likely to believe him about her family? She knows he's lied to her. She knows he has plans. And she has Lysa's confession about the deaths of Ned and Cat somewhere in her consciousness, waiting for Martin to use it. Seems like Baelish saying, "oh, no, Trust me. Arya's just fine!" or "That's not her!" would be a good time for that info to come out and play, no?

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Knowledge of Ramsay's true nature has likely not made it to the Vale, or if it has, it would be sketchy and in the form of rumor.  And given that Winterfell is on lockdown, news of his treatment won't have gotten out.  Any current neews about "Arya" subsequent to the marriage will likely focus on her escape.  Not much point in rescuing someone who is no longer there.

Well. . .  Jon seems to think going south for the missing Arya and Winterfell is worth it.

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I don't doubt that she will go north.  But it won't be to rescue her sister.  My own personal theory is that she hears about the invasion of the Others, and seeks to help in the fight against them.

I could see this, too. Especially in motivation to get the Royces north. But Martin's taken time to set up Sansa's emotions and memories and dreams about Arya. And longing for home. Seems like that's there for a reason.

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I do not believe that she is headed south for any reason.  There is nothing for her there.  Her enemies are in the south, and she no longer has any interest in being Queen.  I also think that she will take down Baelish, but whether that has to do with events in the past or events to come I don't know.  But the differences between them will come to the fore, and cause conflict, resulting in his demise. 

Agreed.

On January 20, 2017 at 0:37 PM, Scorpion92 said:

An excellent analysis. I agree that Sansa will eventually and gradually replace Littlefinger as the surrogate parent figure for Sweetrobin if she did not already.

What I am still contemplating is what George plans to do with untouched Vale assets story wise. I do not see Knights of the Vale moving anywhere else but either to Riverlands or North. I do believe that even if Baelish decides to take Vale army and secure Winterfell for Sansa, he will first need to go through Riverlands, I mean it is just logic by looking only geographically. I just do not see Arryn fleet leaving Gulltown and sailing to White Harbor and entering White Knife to be engaged in political situation around Winterfell. I think there are enough players in northern politics (Boltons, northern lords, Jon, wildlings, Stannis, etc.) to add another "Mereeneese knot" to the story.

A fair point. But Martin's gone to the trouble to make sure we know the people who control White Harbor are VERY pro-Stark. And taken the time to tell us that Ned escaped North by sea--granted a much smaller task than taking an army, but still--it's an add detail to bring up out of nowhere.

We had the war of the 5 kings and the siege of King's Landing with multiple players. And the sudden save of the Watch by Stannis' army (who sailed in). So, having the Vale Knights sweep in to help--seems well within Martin's previous context.

On January 20, 2017 at 0:37 PM, Scorpion92 said:

And watching the latest Preston Jacobs' video on Frey Civil War, he has many good points about many Frey marriage connections to Vale houses. I am pretty sure Brotherhood without Banners and Lady Stoneheart will take out significant portion of Lannister and Frey power in Riverlands, which will leave a big power vacuum to fill in the region. Riverlands, its nobles and smallfolk alike will need a new leadership that will have food resources and military power to enforce peace, bring back some stability and feed the starving people in the upcoming winter. Otherwise they have no hope.

There is a foreshadowing of Blackfish joining Brotherhood without Banners, and the fact that he was very close to Catelyn who Sansa reminds the most out of Stark children, you have a potential story connection for the Vale to be involved in Riverlands politics. Not to mention Blackfish was serving Lysa at the Vale for a long time. You have to also keep in mind that Iron Throne will not be able to send significant forces to the area to help out Lannister and Frey troops because they have their hands full with Sparrows, Aegon and Euron's invasions and inner distrust between Lannisters and Tyrells. 

And as a political cover up for Vale involvement in Riverlands, it is very simple: Lord Baelish is Lord of Harrenhal and Lord Paramount of the Trident by royal decree, so as the overlord of Riverlands he has all legal authority to bring "loyal to the crown" Knights of the Vale to enforce "King Tommen's peace" in the region. He will have no problem from Cersei (who is not as smart as she thinks she is) to do what he plans to do.

I agree on the Blackfish. And that Baelish might want to do this--even would fit with his vengeance against the Tullys for keeping his love from him. Though that need for vengeance would work even stronger for Winterfell--and Baelish may like to pretend he's all logic and strategy. But he's got emotional blindspots re: Cat and Sansa.

Still--I think Sansa, not Baelish, will be driving this bus. Martin's spent a lot of time showing her influence on Robin. And her desire for home. And a lot of time from the start of the books showing the Royces' tie to the North and the Watch. If they go via the Riverlands, it really could be just for travel.

On January 20, 2017 at 0:37 PM, Scorpion92 said:

So yeah, I definitely think that Vale's political power will stop at Riverlands for some time before heading to Winterfell and the North to help Sansa and her siblings take over ancestral seat of Starks from whoever occupying it (Boltons, Stannis, Lord Manderly, it does not matter, whoever holds it will not have the best interests of House Stark). I definitely see Lord Yohn Royce befriending Jon who resembles Eddard a lot and maybe bend the knee to him as King in the North after Jon proves himself in future battles in the North.

I could definitely see this--though I doubt the stop will be long. (Or maybe I just wish it because I want the books to get finished). And the bolded--yes. Or just allying with Jon as King in the North--allying with the Starks and the Watch against the Others.

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On January 19, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

@Sly Wren  I had written a whole bunch of stuff last night, but somehow when I hit submit the board ate it. :bang:   

HA! No worries. I'm convinced that's how the board maintains the energy to keep working.

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I had not meant to make it sound like I was soft on what he did at the Blackwater.

Oh! And I did not mean to imply that you did. I apologize if I'm come across as overly hostile--that is not my intent.

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He did a very scary, very bad, wildly inappropriate thing.  Sansa's description as it is happening is not sugar coated.  George is very careful to make sure nothing actually sexual ever happens between them at that moment or it would be crossing a line into permanent, unforgivable damage.  She doesn't make excuses for him, except that when she wraps herself in the cloak after he's gone it's implied he's already forgiven.

Agreed on the bolded--or is willing to overlook it. Still--she doesn't go with him. Or seem to be happy about what he did months (and maybe more) later in the Vale.

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 Bottom line, though, she's 12 and she's not equipped to deal with him or fix him.  She's not ready for any of this intense intimacy with anyone.  Even in his state, he must have known this because he ends up demanding a literal song.  It's the only thing intimate, personal he can have from her without physical violation.  

Agreed.

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The knife is evocative of the wildling custom of wife-stealing and as I've said before, Sandor is very much like a displaced Northman.  Jon also holds a knife to Ygritte's throat, which she happily interprets as being stolen by him.  She admires Jon's ferocity and he actually drew blood.  Sandor did not break her skin, again another careful choice by George because Sansa isn't going to take it the same way as Ygritte.  The knife is just straight up phallic.  There's a sexual subtext in Sansa's narration, which she isn't consciously aware of but it points to her deeper subconscious thoughts.  Her throat is dry at first, she feels the pinch, then she feels the "wetness that was not blood."  Then there's the bloody cloak left behind, like the sign of losing her virginity.  All this is a likely foreshadowing of a future event, where things turn out very different.  It's such a multi-layered scene it's no wonder people still pour over it years later.  But let's get to how exactly things change every time she recalls the unkiss, because it's important to how she's going to feel about it by the time she gets to SR.

Agreed. 

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What's changed from the real event?  Quite a few things.  The language is not infused with the same sense of fear.  It starts out almost braggy, like yeah I kissed a MAN you silly girls.  She even shifts around between making it sound like she was acting on him, or at least a mutual participant, to being acted upon.  He did not come to her.  He was already waiting for her in the room.  The song is almost implied to be a romantic song, but it was a religious hymn.  What's the same?  The scary stuff:  the war, the stink of wine and blood, the threat and "he made me."  

True--though still not very romantic. 

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Now let's look at SR's kiss in it's full context. The ellipses is really important.  In her attempt to fantasize about Loras, she just made a big realization.  No Tyrell would ever love or desire her for herself, as she had said she wanted.  Stripped of her title she would mean absolutely nothing to them.  Even as Sansa, she remembers all she got from him was the rose that was a completely empty gesture.  That kills that fantasy right there.  So SR's kiss is undoubtedly unpleasant, but not as bad as say Joffrey's wormy lips, Dontos's slobber, or Petyr's creepy grooming.  She's got other unpleasant kisses to choose from to compare it too, but she doesn't.  SR might like her for herself, but there's also a power imbalance if she's a bastard.  He's lord of the Eyrie and may feel entitled to act upon his crush and insist on how things are going to be between them.  She's replacing it with the unkiss and even more has changed about it.  The language has shifted around again to becoming much more darkly sensual, like classic gothic romance or George's favorite BatB interpretation of the Cocteau film of that name.

On the red--but she's tied it with Robin--not really sensual. Taking and leaving with nothing is  theft, not romance. It's all lumped in the same unpleasantness. Something she had to submit to--with Robin, because she has to get him out of there, and with the Hound because he was cruel (or at least his mouth was) and there was practically an apocalypse outside (green fire) and he "took" without giving anything at all that repaid for his "taking." 

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What's really important here is all the things she's edited out of the real version and her initial unkiss recollection.  There's no war, just the darkness and green fire light.

But that's still kinda apocalyptic--a sky of green fire is pretty horrifying.

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There's no wine, no knife, no blood, no threat, no "made me," no crazy, no fear.  She doesn't even call him the Hound, who represents all those scarier unpleasant things.  Cruel mouth in this context sounds more like intense and passionate rather than unpleasant.

Hmmm. . . I'm trying to see this. I really am--but that's hard to do. She's comparing the incident, unwillingly, to the unpleasantness of Robin's kiss.

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I know the word "took" is key for you, but let's also put that into context and how it makes it different from all other kisses, real or fantasy.

Yes--"took and left with nothing" is pretty negative.

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In her mind at least, for Sandor to kiss her is risking treason and death.  She was his king's betrothed and he was also a deserter.  His life could be forfeit and he has nothing to gain from it.  She's so out of his league in social standing there's zero chance of being with her.  So why would he risk what little he has left with no hope of something more afterward while he really has to get out of KL fast?  The only reason could be was that he did care about her for herself.  He placed having one thing from her before he left above his life.  In this context, the "taking" doesn't sound so forced or like something she would be unwilling to give anyway.

Okay--but where are these emotions/ideas in Sansa's thoughts in the text? The context she gave was the unpleasantness of Robin's forced kiss. Even if the Hound's kiss is less clumsy, his mouth is  still cruel and leaves her with nothing. Maybe if Martin gave us something along those lines, I could go with you. But Sansa's shifted away from her thoughts on the kissing game and lumped the Hound with Robin now--all taking and no giving.

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Also, it seems now that Sansa's subconscious feelings about the whole thing are now coming to the front of her mind, now that's she's been able to process it in her own way and at her own pace.  She's completely re-written history and edited out all the things she didn't want -- the anger, the threat, and the drunkenness (the Hound).  That leaves the things she did want, re-imagined -- the kiss, the ferocity without anger (Sandor).

"Ferocity without anger?" Maybe. But the words "cruel" and "took" in the same thought seem tied rather together. 

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BUT... the realization is that it's too late.  There's no round two.  She's not likely to see him again.  So she just immediately has to abandon her newly conscious feelings because it's just too late and over now.

But her ending thought is that "it made no matter"--right after the "took and left me with nothing." Not longing for him to come back--just realizing that she got nothing out of it. Nothing out of his cruel mouth under the sky of green fire. 

Maybe I could go with she's hoping he'll come back and give her something for what he took from her--but that's at best debatable. But I think I could go that far. Still, her thoughts on the Hound in this moment really don't seem complimentary.

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This is also paralleled by Sandor re-writing history with Arya.  He tells her her sister sang him the song after he saved her from the bread riot.  He only acknowledges this was a lie and he's a "gutless fraud" and he's about to die.  He's exhausted all hope of joining Robb's army and raising his social status, or even just returning Arya to family.  There's a paralleled sense of finality about the other one in each of them.  It's too late.  It's over.

Agreed.

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Fortunately, George has a soft spot for Sandor and lands him on a quiet, peaceful island where he can get all the help he needs from a very appropriately named Elder Brother, his real older brother being the roots of his trauma.  And the Hound is officially dead and likely all the things Sansa did not want.                       

Maybe--but so far we've seen nowhere near enough to know whether or not the Quiet Isle has changed the Hound anywhere except the Quiet Isle.

I do hope they see each other again. And I fully agree that the hound is part of Sansa's sexual awakening. But it's a messy thing at best. And the moment in the Eyrie is not a bright spot in Sansa's thought processes.

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On 20/01/2017 at 1:18 PM, chrisdaw said:

...

Here's where her story is going. She's going to destroy LF in revenge, then overcome Cersei for the hearts and minds of westeros to become queen. And as the game is one of manipulation which causes unavoidable collateral damage, she will to a degree have become like them. The central question of her arc will be is that what Sansa has now become or can she pull herself back from the brink. It's manifestation will be a choice Sansa will face between clinging to power to the detriment of the realm or sacrificing the position she has climbed her way up to and the power she has amassed for a greater good. Avarice or sacrifice. Lannister or Stark.

I think Sansa's dreams of queendom are over (for the usual reasons, plus her decision was reflected in her choice of clothing, when she rejected the dress of royal purple and chose instead modest brown).

I agree with the central point - Sansa must choose who she wants to be, but it's not Stark or Lannister, it's Stark or Baelish. Sansa is living Alayne's life, thinking Alayne's thoughts - a self-created split personality.

This division is hugely important. It's always Alayne who loves living in the Vale, and Sansa who longs for Winterfell. It's Alayne who is Littlefinger's loving and obedient daughter. And taking on his values.  So, yes, I think she will be tempted to commit atrocities, and her choices will define who she is, no going back.

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22 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Oh! And I did not mean to imply that you did. I apologize if I'm come across as overly hostile--that is not my intent.

Oh no, you were not hostile at all.  I was just trying to be clear that I wasn't blind to the nature of what actually happened.  You've been great.  This is a very interesting topic and I don't mind at all you challenging me to think that much harder. :thumbsup:

22 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed on the bolded--or is willing to overlook it. Still--she doesn't go with him. Or seem to be happy about what he did months (and maybe more) later in the Vale.

As she was right to not go with him.  I think it does matter too that cloak wasn't just disgarded after wrapping herself in it.  She placed it in a chest with her summer silks.  This seems like a risk too because her maids are loyal to Cersei.  What would happen if people found a bloody kingsguard cloak in her personal possessions?  She doesn't know why she kept it, but it is placed with her future wardrobe.  So subsciously, that speaks to her having things she hoped for regarding him, even immediately following his inappropriate behavior.  

You're right that her first time thinking about the unkiss with the Tyrells is not overtly romantic.  She wavers between being describing herself as being an actor and being acted upon.  At least at this moment, she can be of two minds about it.  There were things that were scary and she was unprepared for, but certain things she would likely give willingly if she had the chance and it was the right time and situation.  She swaps places with him where she is there waiting for him and he comes to her.  It's her fantasy, so it's her rules.  So she's not opposed to him coming to her and doing some acting upon her.  She may not entirely be opposed to the taking if... 

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She could only imagine what it would be like to pull up [Loras's] tunic and caress the smooth skin underneath, to stand on her toes and kiss him, to run her fingers through those thick brown curls and drown in his deep brown eyes. A flush crept up her neck.

In that fantasy, Sansa is the sole actor upon Loras and that also excites her.  In a reciprocal relationship, "giving" and "taking" can be one and the same thing.  If you want to be "taken," then the person doing the taking is also giving.  If she's denied that ability to do some acting herself, it's still left as something frustrating and unsatisfying (and thus unhappy) even if she would be okay with some taking.  In order to be "taken from" in a positive way and not a negative, you have to feel safe being that vulnerable, especially for the first experiences in that kind of relationship.  I'm not trying to be too graphic, but some people do get an erotic charge from a sense of danger.  I can completely see why this wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea.  In the real BW, the danger was real, not just outside but also from his drunken crazy.  In her subsequent re-edited memories, she didn't 100% remove all aspects of danger, she just controlled the volume level.  Took it from a 10 down to a 4, where no harm would actually happen.  Romance can be such a broad term and really depends on the individual.  It can range from warm and fuzzy stuff (and there is a gentler side to their interactions as well) to intense and dark.  That goes the same for what individuals find attractive and erotic.  I think George does allow the characters to have very individual tastes that don't fit the traditional norms.  This is artwork that was approved by George for an official calendar and he even has it framed in his house.  It's almost exactly like an image from his favorite BatB adaptation, which was clearly on the darker/erotic side of romance.          

22 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

On the red--but she's tied it with Robin--not really sensual. Taking and leaving with nothing is  theft, not romance. It's all lumped in the same unpleasantness. Something she had to submit to--with Robin, because she has to get him out of there, and with the Hound because he was cruel (or at least his mouth was) and there was practically an apocalypse outside (green fire) and he "took" without giving anything at all that repaid for his "taking." 

Now that I think about it, the phrasing of "cruel mouth" goes beyond this scene.  She does have a complicated relationship with his "cruel mouth."  On one hand, he won't lie to her and speak plainly with her, even if the truth is unpleasant.  On the other hand, he can take it way too far and say really mean things.  Even in their more heated disagreements (before BW), it's still one of the few times she can drop the mask and speak to anyone in a real way.  She's unafraid of calling him out on his mean behavior too.  She can be mad at him, but at the same time wish Dontos had more of his ferocity.  But this is a much more realistic and mature view of relationships, isn't it?  Two people can get mad and be frustrated with each other, fully recognize the flaws in the other, and still care about and miss the other.  Sandor doesn't abandon her completely even if he's obviously frustrated by her naivete, aversion to his physical appearance, and doing her "talking bird" routine.    

This goes for parent-child relationships as well as friendships.  Sansa can be frustrated and annoyed with SR, but she does still care about him and is emotionally invested enough to take on a parenting role.  She also had unrealistic ideas of just "having babies," but the work of parenting a child and raising a good future leader is so much messier and taxing.  She finds his kiss clumsy and doesn't reciprocate the feeling, but it's not so unpleasant that she's rejected the relationship entirely.  She won't abandon him because he made a mis-step in foisting his crush upon her, because she does get some positives out of the relationship too.  She has found someone to bond with over a mutual interest and mothering him has helped her confront some of her own issues.  She also has the right to be frustrated that everything has always been foisted upon her, whether she liked it or not.  Even if it was not out of the realm of something she would want, she was still denied the ability to be an actor in it.  So if the two kisses are put up side-by-side in text, there's things still worth caring about in both SR and Sandor, regardless of a certain amount of unpleasantness.  She does both gently and firmly temper SR's actions and give him boundaries that respect her limits.  I would imagine she would have preferred to have the same with Sandor now that more of her feelings have become clearer and conscious.  It was just too much all at once, making the author's choice to seperate them very wise if he ever wanted to write about a relationship in the future.             

22 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Okay--but where are these emotions/ideas in Sansa's thoughts in the text? 

I should not have said "In her mind" because she was not consciously thinking any of that in the text.  I should have said "Looking at their respective social standings and the consequences of an actual kiss between them..."   My bad.  :blushing:                            

I think this does speak to Sansa's overall arc of trying to gain agency and choice.  I do think if/when they ever do meet again, Sandor will not be the one to initiate anything.  He last left her deeply ashamed and rightly so.  It will most likely be that Sansa is the one who will be in control of whatever happens.                 

22 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Maybe--but so far we've seen nowhere near enough to know whether or not the Quiet Isle has changed the Hound anywhere except the Quiet Isle.

I do hope they see each other again. And I fully agree that the hound is part of Sansa's sexual awakening. But it's a messy thing at best. And the moment in the Eyrie is not a bright spot in Sansa's thought processes.

Well, all we have are the hints.  He's doing humbling work that confronts his flippant attitude towards being a "butcher."  He probably has to respect the vow of silence by keeping his "cruel mouth" shut most of the time and do more quiet contemplation.  Because the EB seemed to know quite a bit about his life story, he's obviously been having some counseling.  The EB also said he was a knight and veteran and also had problems with alcohol.  The Hound helm was taken up by someone else, but he's likely not fully tamed.  There's Stranger in the stables that kicked and bit someone's ear off when they tried to geld him.  :lol:  Sandor is never going to be a celibate monk, but he's probably saving his ferocity for people that actually deserve it, not just spewing meanness indiscriminately when he can't properly people.                

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On ‎22‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 8:21 AM, Sly Wren said:

How happy she is? With the sounds like her home and friendly people--that she is still kinda worried will find out who she is? And some of them insult her for being a bastard?

Well let's ask the text shall we? The latest we have rather working from previous points in her arc and trying to represent them as her contemporary mindset.

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Alayne loved it here. She felt alive again, for the first since her father...since Lord Eddard Stark had died.

Well there we go. Deny the text at your leisure.

11 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I think Sansa's dreams of queendom are over (for the usual reasons, plus her decision was reflected in her choice of clothing, when she rejected the dress of royal purple and chose instead modest brown).

I agree with the central point - Sansa must choose who she wants to be, but it's not Stark or Lannister, it's Stark or Baelish. Sansa is living Alayne's life, thinking Alayne's thoughts - a self-created split personality.

This division is hugely important. It's always Alayne who loves living in the Vale, and Sansa who longs for Winterfell. It's Alayne who is Littlefinger's loving and obedient daughter. And taking on his values.  So, yes, I think she will be tempted to commit atrocities, and her choices will define who she is, no going back.

There's symbolism in her dress choice, representing how she feels at the moment of choosing, an accompaniment as she progresses on her arc. It's nothing to rest your hat on, I can pull up many and far more substantial offerings in the other direction.

I think you're thinking there is less story left than I, and from there comes similar but different takes on the arc. Baelish and Alayne are a portion of the arc and not the apex. The internal question is going to build and resolve at the end. Baelish and Alayne are soon expired, the end is still far away, we are barely halfway through if he finishes in as many words as he hopes, and the story will move more in less words as POVs converge.

Baelish and Alayne are just steps, there's lots more Sansa arc coming afterwards. She's not emerging from the Alayne persona as a defined self determining Sansa.

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On January 22, 2017 at 0:52 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Oh no, you were not hostile at all.  I was just trying to be clear that I wasn't blind to the nature of what actually happened.  You've been great.  This is a very interesting topic and I don't mind at all you challenging me to think that much harder. :thumbsup:

:cheers: But I give you full permission to yell at me if/when I do get hostile.

On January 22, 2017 at 0:52 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

As she was right to not go with him.  I think it does matter too that cloak wasn't just disgarded after wrapping herself in it.  She placed it in a chest with her summer silks.  This seems like a risk too because her maids are loyal to Cersei.  What would happen if people found a bloody kingsguard cloak in her personal possessions?  She doesn't know why she kept it, but it is placed with her future wardrobe.  So subsciously, that speaks to her having things she hoped for regarding him, even immediately following his inappropriate behavior.  

Yup! The imagery of the cloak is very tantalizing. I've seen some analysis on its potential ties to a marriage cloak.

But I'm thinking it also ties to the whole idea of honor and knights--the phrase "soiling his cloak" comes up rather frequently in the novels re: the Kingsguard. And in the Blackwater scene, she describes the Hound's cloak as stained twice.

The stained/fallen Kingsguard who actually ends up being more noble. Not unlike Jon's "dishonor" with Ygritte ends up being potentially beneficial for Warch and Wildlings alike. 

Then we've got poor Arys Oakheart--the Well-Meaning if Never Brilliant. And Theon's turned cloak. For all of these men, they have a trial--often resulting in their "staining"--but some of them come out stronger.

And I agree she might keep it hoping for something from him. As a Kingsguard, he was the only one who did protect her. Wanting that "knightly" protection--she never gets over that desire. 

On January 22, 2017 at 0:52 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

In that fantasy, Sansa is the sole actor upon Loras and that also excites her.  In a reciprocal relationship, "giving" and "taking" can be one and the same thing.

Agreed--and I agree that Sansa may agree with this somewhat--though after her treatment from Joff, she seems less interested in violence. And in this specific moment in the Eyrie--she's tying the Hound's taking a kiss to Robin's taking a kiss. . . . even though Robin's sloppy and the Hound's mouth is cruel, she is trying the kisses together. Which seems less. . . erotic.

But then, anything tied to Robin seems as un-erotic as possible.:leaving: So that fact may skew my reading.

On January 22, 2017 at 0:52 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I think this does speak to Sansa's overall arc of trying to gain agency and choice.  I do think if/when they ever do meet again, Sandor will not be the one to initiate anything.  He last left her deeply ashamed and rightly so.  It will most likely be that Sansa is the one who will be in control of whatever happens.  

Very possible--though I'm more inclined to think it will be back to the "knightly" idea. That he's the protector. No doubt there's a potentially erotic element to the knightly ideal. But I could see her seeing him as just the protector.

On January 22, 2017 at 0:52 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

There's Stranger in the stables that kicked and bit someone's ear off when they tried to geld him.  :lol:  Sandor is never going to be a celibate monk, but he's probably saving his ferocity for people that actually deserve it, not just spewing meanness indiscriminately when he can't properly people.           

HA! And I agree. Makes me think even more he'd be more fit for that knightly ideal--the one he scorns because all of the other knights suck, not because he disbelieves the ideals.

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17 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Well let's ask the text shall we? The latest we have rather working from previous points in her arc and trying to represent them as her contemporary mindset.

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Alayne loved it here. She felt alive again, for the first since her father...since Lord Eddard Stark had died.

Well there we go. Deny the text at your leisure.

Not denying. Contextualizing.

Winds of Winter Spoiler in the argument below--so I'll put the whole thing in the spoiler to be safe:

 

Here's the context of that quote

When she had left Petyr Baelish that morning he had been breaking his fast with old Oswell who had arrived last night from Gulltown on a lathered horse. She hoped they might still be talking, but Petyr's solar proved empty. Someone had left a window open and a stack of papers had blown onto the floor. The sun was slanting through the thick yellow windows, and dust motes danced in the light like tiny golden insects. Though snow had blanketed the heights of the Giant's Lance above, below the mountain the autumn lingered and winter wheat was ripening in the fields. Outside the window she could hear the laughter of the washerwomen at the well, the din of steel on steel from the ward where the knights were at their drills. Good sounds.
Alayne loved it here. She felt alive again, for the first since her father...since Lord Eddard Stark had died. 
She closed the window, gathered up the fallen papers, and stacked them on the table. One was a list of the competitors. Four-and-sixty knights had been invited to vie for places amongst Lord Robert Arryn's new Brotherhood of Winged Knights, and four and-sixty knights had come to tilt for the right to wear falcon's wings upon their warhelms and guard their lord. Winds, Alayne I
When she says "she loved it here," she really seems to be talking about the Solar--not the Vale overall. And the view from the Solar--of the fields and the snowy mountains--and the sounds of washerwomen and practice fighting--sounds of any healthy, safe, functioning castle.
And what's her next thought? Feeling alive as she hasn't since her father. She immediately censors herself, withdraws back into her Alayne persona during those ellipses, and then "closed the window"--shutting out those sounds. Those good sounds that remind her of who she is and who her real father is.
Bottom line: in this moment, Alayne loves this place in the solar because it reminds her of her life and family as Sansa. And that's hard enough for her that she shuts those "good sounds" out so she can go back to who she needs to be to survive. And get through the plan.
A plan which seems likely to have something to do with Old Oswell showing up from Gulltown on his lathered horse.
I don't deny that Alayne likes her life in the Eyrie--but Sansa still misses her family and her home. And wants to go home. And the whole plot with Baelish has him promising to take her home.
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On 1/16/2017 at 5:35 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

For practical reasons I cant get on board with Sansa taking wf.  While GRRM is not perfect about it, he does not completely ignore logistics or practicality.  The mountain pass is snowed in, meaning the Vale army cannot leave by land.  

They will have to go by ship, and gathering the number of ships needed will take time, just like gathering the army.  Sailing all the way around the Vale and up the White Knife will expose that fleet to winter storms, and take more time.

Meanwhile WF is set to fall to Stannis anyway, and 

  Reveal hidden contents

the food setup seems to be tailor made for Sansa to rescue the Riverlands, rather than the north.

Given that, Id say that the Twins are a more likely target for the Vale army, landing through Maidenpoole, a much shorter and safer journey by ship.  The Freys killed her mother and brother, and when Corbray draws his sword while under guest rights one of the Lords Declarant asks if he is a Frey.  This clearly shows that the Vale already has a lot of contempt for what the Freys did and would probably be on board with taking them out.

Plus, we know that Jeyne Westerling will be in the prologue, and she is currently heading west with Edmure.  This seems to setup a rescue attempt that is doomed to fail, as Jaime doubled the guard at the last minute and ordered a dozen bowmen to surround Edmure and kill him at any sign of trouble.  With Bran and Rickon thought dead, Sansa would become the Lady of Riverrun by Tully inheritance.  

Add in the fact that Sansas appearance and ties to LF are comparable more to Catlyn than Eddard,  unlike Arya or Jon, and I simply believe her story lies in the Riverlands rather than the North.

Oh I agree Sansa and Baelish are heading to the  Riverlands in the next book. To deal with the Freys and LSH has that crown and I know who she  intends to crown. 

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5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Yup! The imagery of the cloak is very tantalizing. I've seen some analysis on its potential ties to a marriage cloak.

But I'm thinking it also ties to the whole idea of honor and knights--the phrase "soiling his cloak" comes up rather frequently in the novels re: the Kingsguard. And in the Blackwater scene, she describes the Hound's cloak as stained twice.

The stained/fallen Kingsguard who actually ends up being more noble. Not unlike Jon's "dishonor" with Ygritte ends up being potentially beneficial for Warch and Wildlings alike. 

Oh yes, the marriage cloak symbolism is likely there (especially if you factor in the wife-stealing symbolism) and he's given her a cloak twice.  George likes to do things in three's -- just sayin'.  ;)

 But the cloak is definitely more than that.  Despite Sandor just saying he hates knights, he has a much more complicated relationship with the idea.  It's almost as if his standards for knighthood are so ridiculously high he doesn't believe anyone in the awful world can live up to that, including himself.  He's a deeply jaded idealist.  Even when he accepts the KG position (replacing Barristan Selmy who he has some ideas in common with in a twisted way), he does so with a resignation that he has no hope of a wife or home and no one will care anyway.  Saddest acceptance speech ever.  I agree there's big themes in the book about what good is honor if you aren't actually doing the right thing.  Baelor the Blessed's doves may look prettier than ravens, but ravens get the job done more effectively and serve the realm.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Very possible--though I'm more inclined to think it will be back to the "knightly" idea. That he's the protector. No doubt there's a potentially erotic element to the knightly ideal. But I could see her seeing him as just the protector

He would probably see himself in the protector role, given a second chance, which I believe he will.  I have my own ideas of exactly how that will go down related the the OP of the link.  The ball would be in Sansa's court for anything else.            

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On January 23, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Lord Wraith said:

Oh I agree Sansa and Baelish are heading to the  Riverlands in the next book. To deal with the Freys and LSH has that crown and I know who she  intends to crown. 

I agree that Un-Cat The Maleficent would want to crown Sansa. 

And kill Baelish.

And I agree they could travel through the Riverlands--though the books have reminded us a few times of Gulltown and Baelish's ability to travel and get word by sea. And Stannis' army getting north to the Wall by sea.

But I'm struggling to see Sansa's or even Baelish's desire to spend time in the Riverlands--are you thinking he'd want revenge on the Freys? Or on the Tullys by retaking Riverrun? 

So far, Sansa's references to the Freys, while hostile, have been limited. We do have Bronze Yohn make that angry jibe at Corbray about "are you a Corbray or a Frey?"  But so far, Sansa's focus seems to be on home--or on avoiding thoughts of home so she can keep playing her Alayne part--until she can go home.  . .

Or are you thinking they'd get mired in there if they try to just travel through?

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On January 23, 2017 at 10:15 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Oh yes, the marriage cloak symbolism is likely there (especially if you factor in the wife-stealing symbolism) and he's given her a cloak twice.  George likes to do things in three's -- just sayin'.  ;)

Yes, indeed. Though, both times, it's the Kingsguard's "snowy" cloak. And in the book (Clash) where the Hound gives her that white cloak twice (Storm) we get the start of Jaime's self-misery about how to fulfill his role as a Kingsguard and what it means to "soil" the cloak, let alone fulfill the vows to defend and protect the defenseless.

And in the next book (Storm), we see Jaime expand on this. And even see the Hound continue the "protector" somewhat with Arya--though he does it in his very Hound-ish way.

And in Feast, we keep hearing Jaime on this topic. And Arys Oakheart thinks about the dangers of "soiling" his cloak vs. fulfilling his oaths a lot--at least until he dies, poor fool. And in Dance, we get similar thought from Barristan.

My point: it could be a marriage reference. But given him often Martin keeps coming back to the symbolism of the white cloak, the soiled cloak, and "keeping" of knightly vows by white-cloaked men--seems like the giving of the cloak to Sansa may fit better into that context.

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 But the cloak is definitely more than that.  Despite Sandor just saying he hates knights, he has a much more complicated relationship with the idea.  It's almost as if his standards for knighthood are so ridiculously high he doesn't believe anyone in the awful world can live up to that, including himself.  He's a deeply jaded idealist.  Even when he accepts the KG position (replacing Barristan Selmy who he has some ideas in common with in a twisted way), he does so with a resignation that he has no hope of a wife or home and no one will care anyway.  Saddest acceptance speech ever.  I agree there's big themes in the book about what good is honor if you aren't actually doing the right thing.  Baelor the Blessed's doves may look prettier than ravens, but ravens get the job done more effectively and serve the realm.

YUP! Amen!

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He would probably see himself in the protector role, given a second chance, which I believe he will.  I have my own ideas of exactly how that will go down related the the OP of the link.  The ball would be in Sansa's court for anything else.            

Agreed. It's one of the reasons I do hope they see each other again--seems like the Hound could do with a chance at "protecting" Sansa "right." Even Arys Oakheart keeps thinking about failing her--and he wasn't infatuated with her.

ETA: I'm still digesting that link--a very cool concept.

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You can look at cloaks several ways. Considered as a symbol of protection, the second cloak, which is torn and discarded, could mark the end of the Sandor's protection of Sansa (such as it was). She kept the cloak though - perhaps it could be restored and renewed.

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7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

You can look at cloaks several ways. Considered as a symbol of protection, the second cloak, which is torn and discarded, could mark the end of the Sandor's protection of Sansa (such as it was). She kept the cloak though - perhaps it could be restored and renewed.

A very cool idea--though I'm not sure he'd want restoration to the KG.

But Sansa as restoring his knightly ideal? I could see that.

She clearly had an effect on Arys Oakheart's idea of his knighthood. And on Sweetrobin's ideals. Even some effect on Lothor Brune--though that's mostly through Baelish. Hmmm--Sansa, the one who "re-knights" the knights?

It does seem like she had to leave that cloak behind when she left, though. I couldn't find any evidence that she was able to take it or her summer silks with her--but I fully admit I could have missed that in searching for the evidence and am always happy to be corrected.

But if she did have to leave it behind, her "restoration" could be symbolic, maybe?

6 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Okay--I will love it if this theory turns out to be true. That would be fabulous.

I'm tending to doubt it in part because of the detail in Sansa's POV when she's dressing to flee. She thinks of the beading on her dress. Of the square toes and stout heels of her boots. Even thinks of what Dontos said about her hairnet.

But nothing about the origin of the cloak--if she'd put that kind of work into keeping the knightly cloak of her Hound protector, especially given that she thinks of it a few times--seems like that thought would have come up in that moment. She does think the cloak will hide the pearls on her dress--but nothing more than that.

But I'm kinda hoping I'm wrong on this--it would be very cool if the green cloak was the Hound's.

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On 1/25/2017 at 2:46 PM, Sly Wren said:

My point: it could be a marriage reference. But given him often Martin keeps coming back to the symbolism of the white cloak, the soiled cloak, and "keeping" of knightly vows by white-cloaked men--seems like the giving of the cloak to Sansa may fit better into that context.

Absolutely.  It keeps coming up again and again, that struggle with the knightly ideal and keeping vows, especially when they conflict with other vows or doing the right thing  Jaime, in a kind of resigned way, describes it almost like everyone eventually will end up an oath-breaker.  The cloak always gets stained somehow, some way.  Something to note with Sandor with his relationship to the white cloak is that he links it specifically to protecting Sansa, not the king or the royal family.  Upon being given the cloak, he has no problem telling the court he will make no knightly vows.  Why would he accept the cloak to begin with if he already associates the white cloak with some of the worst "knights" he knows, placing himself in a brotherhood with them?  I could see him making some snarky remark that would make Joffrey laugh and being able to get out of the position.  He does seem to be pretty priveledged where the Lannisters are concerned.  No one questions his loyalty or feels a need to make him say the vows and he was already Joffrey's sworn shield.  And we've already noted, he's giving up all hope of home and family when he accepts.  Why?  Probably because Sansa is still going to be Joffrey's queen at that point, but maybe it's more than just being close for the protector role...    

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The king was shaded beneath a crimson canopy, one leg thrown negligently over the carved wooden arm of his chair. Princess Myrcella and Prince Tommen sat behind him. In the back of the royal box, Sandor Clegane stood at guard, his hands resting on his swordbelt. The white cloak of the Kingsguard was draped over his broad shoulders and fastened with a jeweled brooch, the snowy cloth looking somehow unnatural against his brown roughspun tunic and studded leather jerkin. "Lady Sansa," the Hound announced curtly when he saw her. His voice was as rough as the sound of a saw on wood. The burn scars on his face and throat made one side of his mouth twitch when he spoke.

Wait, a jeweled brooch and snowy white cloak on a guy that never wears ornamentation except for his Hounds helm!?!  He's likely doing more than just announcing her presence because his mouth is twitching.  That's his signature "tell" he's thinking something he isn't saying.  That just screams "look at me," "notice me."  So then maybe he took the white cloak because he actually wants to impress her because he thinks that's what she wants.  He was there when Barristan Selmy was "retired" from the KG and let his cloak fall to the floor.  Sansa knelt on that cloak and begged for mercy for her father.  That image connecting her to the exemplary reputation of Barristan, a living legend of a knight must have stuck with him.  Then he is later presented with the opportunity to replace Barristan, which he's seen as someone Sansa holds in high regard.  He still wants to distance himself though from the other kingsguard by choosing wool, instead of silk and satin cloaks and he doesn't wear the white armor.  But I think the white cloak is mainly about how he wants Sansa to see him and likely how he deep down wants to see himself.  Looking back on his bragging of saving Sansa in the riot to Arya, acting like a true knight for her was probably his proudest moment.  It's why he was kinda salty about her being late to thank him and why he re-wrote history of her singing the song then to culminate the fantasy.  In this quote, he's referring to two incidents that have to do with Sansa and his white cloak:  

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And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her.   I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have.

His struggle with the white cloak is the difference between secretly defying the king and protecting her and open defiance of Joffrey's abuse.  This doesn't negate all the things he's done so far, but in the throne room scene the Hound is initially ordered for the first time to beat Sansa.  It's Dontos that steps in and tries to distract the king with the melon "morning star."  Then Boros and Meryn are ordered to beat her (and he does shout "enough" yet does not move to stop anything), but then Joffrey orders her stripped as well.  It's Tyrion that stops everything and orders her covered up.  It's then Sandor moves to cover her with his cloak.  With his inaction, he's probably likening himself closer to Dontos, who only secretly helps Sansa in this situation, but Joffrey won't be so easily distracted or placated anymore.  Such is the nature of the escalation of abuse.  In that sense, it probably explains some of Sandor's transferred hostility toward Tyrion because he did openly defy the king and stopped the beating, something Sandor hates himself for not doing.  Sansa of course doesn't blame him about what he did or didn't do.  She still clutches his wool cloak and says "no velvet ever felt so fine."  She does appreciate even small gestures of support and I doubt she would have wanted Sandor to face reprecussions on her account.  If Tyrion had not have stepped in, we don't know what Sandor may have chosen to do ultimately and that may be left purposely up to speculation.   

By the time we get to BW, Sandor's cloak has literally been soiled, but by smoke and blood because he was doing his job in defending the city, so in a loose interpretation he's still protecting her though not directly; however he's also protecting the institution that abuses her.   And still, he only openly defies Tyrion and his desertion is blamed on cowardice.  Then there's the metaphoric soiling of taking the (literal) song instead of allowing her the proper place and time to give it willingly -- the song he referenced as the culmination of him living up to her ideal knight.  If the story had followed the formula in Sandor's head:  save the fair maiden < she's grateful to her hero < perfect opportunity to win her heart.  Throwing down the cloak at the end, was not about defying the regime as Barristan Selmy did.  It was about his percieved looking like a fraud and failure to her when it mattered and he botched up everything himself because he can't people around her.  Sansa has her completely different perceptions of what happened, but she doesn't regard any gesture of support he did for her as a half-measure or a failure.  She still considers him to be brave and wishes he were still around.  

21 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But nothing about the origin of the cloak--if she'd put that kind of work into keeping the knightly cloak of her Hound protector, especially given that she thinks of it a few times--seems like that thought would have come up in that moment. She does think the cloak will hide the pearls on her dress--but nothing more than that.

But I'm kinda hoping I'm wrong on this--it would be very cool if the green cloak was the Hound's.

I agree with this.  As much as I think it would be totally cool if it was, there's no hints given as to the origin of her green cloak, which I think George would do.  He loves planting clues hidden in plain sight.  While I think they lay out it's plausible that she could have dyed and sewn a new cloak, there's no hint that it's that particular cloak.  To me, it's simply enough that her dress and cloak mirrored clothing he wore.  Interestingly, she first wore a green dress to the tourney of the Hand feast and the next day, he's wearing the green cloak when he defends Loras.      

Also in the Eyrie, she is forbidden to wear Stark, Tully or Arryn colors.  She chooses the plain wool dress and her only ornamentation is a autumn yellow ribbon.  The only other time in the books yellow or gold is described as "autumn" is in Sandor's story of his house origins.

Lothor Brune is an interesting wild card and they've clearly developed a friendship.  He's the only one she's ever compared to the Hound and he came out favorably.  She's also aware of his feelings for Mya.  Could he be swayed fully to her side if she brought them together?

Oswell Kettleblack is also interesting...

Spoiler

His sons that were acting as Petyr's spies are now in danger. One is dead (iirc) and the other two are going to face trial by combat against Robert Strong. That was likely the reason he rode so hard from Gulltown to talk to Petyr. There may be nothing Petyr can do to help them or maybe nothing he's willing to do and risk his exposure. Is Oswell going to remain Petyr's man through this?

  

15 hours ago, winter daughter said:

 

I think she will bring food and supplies to Winterfell. but taking it? it's highly unlikely.

Stannis is already there with his army and even if he fails Jon and the wildings will finish the Boltons and take Winterfell.

 

 I am in agreement.  I think she has the opportunity for playing a role in supporting the war effort.  There's much needed food in the south and grain stores at the Gates of the Moon. Jon did hope to purchase food from the Vale.  Harrenhal is such a huge castle, it could be used to house and protect small folk or mount a defense.  With diplomatic and political skills, she may be able to negotiate for more food and support.  Ultimately, there is no going home if the war fails.   

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16 hours ago, winter daughter said:

I think she will bring food and supplies to Winterfell. but taking it? it's highly unlikely.

Stannis is already there with his army and even if he fails Jon and the wildings will finish the Boltons and take Winterfell.

I agree--I really doubt she's taking it on her own.

I think that there's a good chance it will be like what Stannis did for the Watch--sweeping in and defeating Mance. And army sailing in from the south. Or even what Tywin did at King's Landing--sweeping in to save the day.

And yes--I think Jon's going to part of all of that, too.

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7 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Absolutely.  It keeps coming up again and again, that struggle with the knightly ideal and keeping vows, especially when they conflict with other vows or doing the right thing  Jaime, in a kind of resigned way, describes it almost like everyone eventually will end up an oath-breaker.  The cloak always gets stained somehow, some way.

YUP! Martin's having fun undermining both the ideals of the KG and the Night's Watch--or at least how those ideal are corrupted by corrupt leaders.

7 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

And we've already noted, he's giving up all hope of home and family when he accepts.  Why?  Probably because Sansa is still going to be Joffrey's queen at that point, but maybe it's more than just being close for the protector role...    

I could definitely see that. He gives Sansa warnings, after all. Very early on.

7 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Wait, a jeweled brooch and snowy white cloak on a guy that never wears ornamentation except for his Hounds helm!?!  He's likely doing more than just announcing her presence because his mouth is twitching.  That's his signature "tell" he's thinking something he isn't saying.  That just screams "look at me," "notice me."  So then maybe he took the white cloak because he actually wants to impress her because he thinks that's what she wants.  

Maybe--and a very good catch. 

But I'm also remembering that when Boros Blount came to get Sansa in Game, he also has a jeweled broach: 

The next morning, the morning of the third day, Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard came to escort her to the queen
Ser Boros was an ugly man with a broad chest and short, bandy legs. His nose was flat, his cheeks baggy with jowls, his hair grey and brittle. Today he wore white velvet, and his snowy cloak was fastened with a lion brooch. The beast had the soft sheen of gold, and his eyes were tiny rubies. "You look very handsome and splendid this morning, Ser Boros," Sansa told him. A lady remembered her courtesies, and she was resolved to be a lady no matter what. Game, Sansa IV
So, although I like the idea that the Hound might want her notice, I'm also wondering if the cloak has to be fastened with a jeweled broach under Joffrey and the Lannisters. 
7 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

He still wants to distance himself though from the other kingsguard by choosing wool, instead of silk and satin cloaks and he doesn't wear the white armor.  But I think the white cloak is mainly about how he wants Sansa to see him and likely how he deep down wants to see himself.  Looking back on his bragging of saving Sansa in the riot to Arya, acting like a true knight for her was probably his proudest moment.  It's why he was kinda salty about her being late to thank him and why he re-wrote history of her singing the song then to culminate the fantasy.  In this quote, he's referring to two incidents that have to do with Sansa and his white cloak:  

On the bolded--I could see that potentially being his general struggle in life. His disdain of knights because of their failures (especially his brother) seems to predate Sansa. I could see his fascination with Sansa fitting into that past ideal/struggle.

And in that quote you gave, it's clear he believes in that white cloak just as much as Arys Oakheart or Selmy ever did.

8 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

His struggle with the white cloak is the difference between secretly defying the king and protecting her and open defiance of Joffrey's abuse.  

And his struggle with his own belief in knighthood/knightly ideals vs. how he sees them played out. Can't be easy to think he himself has failed when he despises his brother for being such a failure.

8 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

By the time we get to BW, Sandor's cloak has literally been soiled, but by smoke and blood because he was doing his job in defending the city, so in a loose interpretation he's still protecting her though not directly; however he's also protecting the institution that abuses her.   And still, he only openly defies Tyrion and his desertion is blamed on cowardice.  Then there's the metaphoric soiling of taking the (literal) song instead of allowing her the proper place and time to give it willingly -- the song he referenced as the culmination of him living up to her ideal knight.

:agree:

8 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

If the story had followed the formula in Sandor's head:  save the fair maiden < she's grateful to her hero < perfect opportunity to win her heart.  Throwing down the cloak at the end, was not about defying the regime as Barristan Selmy did.  It was about his percieved looking like a fraud and failure to her when it mattered and he botched up everything himself because he can't people around her.  Sansa has her completely different perceptions of what happened, but she doesn't regard any gesture of support he did for her as a half-measure or a failure.  She still considers him to be brave and wishes he were still around.  

On the bolded--agreed. Her song seems to change that for him.

And I agree that Sansa's perceptions are different--but perhaps not entirely/completely different. But she does see him as more of a protector than all the rest of the knights. 

8 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Also in the Eyrie, she is forbidden to wear Stark, Tully or Arryn colors.  She chooses the plain wool dress and her only ornamentation is a autumn yellow ribbon.  The only other time in the books yellow or gold is described as "autumn" is in Sandor's story of his house origins.

Very cool catch!

8 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Lothor Brune is an interesting wild card and they've clearly developed a friendship.  He's the only one she's ever compared to the Hound and he came out favorably.  She's also aware of his feelings for Mya.  Could he be swayed fully to her side if she brought them together?

Yes--the knight who defends the Stark Maid from the lascivious singer at the unnamed, run down, isolated tower--he's a very interesting wild card. Using Mya to get his help. . . .I'd not thought of that. But given that Baelish has shown her that he has "three hidden knives" with the Kettleblacks, and that in the Winds chapter

Sansa really wishes she'd been able to catch Baelish's convo with the old Kettleblack who rode in from Gulltown on a lathered horse

--I could see Sansa trying to find hidden knives of her own.

A very interesting idea.

8 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Oswell Kettleblack is also interesting...

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His sons that were acting as Petyr's spies are now in danger. One is dead (iirc) and the other two are going to face trial by combat against Robert Strong. That was likely the reason he rode so hard from Gulltown to talk to Petyr. There may be nothing Petyr can do to help them or maybe nothing he's willing to do and risk his exposure. Is Oswell going to remain Petyr's man through this?

 

A very good point--if Baelish loses his three hidden knives, that could very well undermine him. And the Kettleblacks do know things that could hurt Baelish--as does Sansa.

And Baelish does tell Sansa in Feast that the Royces won't oppose him on their own--but the info the Kettlblacks and Sansa have could definitely get Bronze Yohn support against Baelish.

8 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I am in agreement.  I think she has the opportunity for playing a role in supporting the war effort.  There's much needed food in the south and grain stores at the Gates of the Moon. Jon did hope to purchase food from the Vale.  Harrenhal is such a huge castle, it could be used to house and protect small folk or mount a defense.  With diplomatic and political skills, she may be able to negotiate for more food and support.  Ultimately, there is no going home if the war fails.   

So, are you thinking she'd hole up in Harrenhal, helping out the Riverlanders? Maybe. Though the Winds chapter does

make it clear that people are getting to the Tourney even from the Sisters--which is how Ned got home to Winterfell--and from Gulltown. Even in the ensuing winter. So--seems like Martin's showing us they could get north from the Vale by sea if they wanted to.

.

Or are you thinking Harrenhal with food might be a . . . stop-off point before going home? Or something else I'm not seeing?

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On January 26, 2017 at 0:12 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I agree with this.  As much as I think it would be totally cool if it was, there's no hints given as to the origin of her green cloak, which I think George would do.  He loves planting clues hidden in plain sight.  While I think they lay out it's plausible that she could have dyed and sewn a new cloak, there's no hint that it's that particular cloak.  To me, it's simply enough that her dress and cloak mirrored clothing he wore.  Interestingly, she first wore a green dress to the tourney of the Hand feast and the next day, he's wearing the green cloak when he defends Loras.    

Whoops! I missed this one--and I'm liking this idea.

I'm almost wondering if it goes beyond "affinity" and into the "influence" we see between wargs and their skin changed associates.

Sansa's not skin changing either the Hound or Sweetrobin. But she can influence them. Not slipping into their skins, but into their . . . reactions. Like the Hound's reaction to her song and Robin's love of Lemoncakes.

It reminds me of that moment in Dance when Jon's listening to new recruits take the oath.

The shield that guards the realms of men. Ghost nuzzled up against his shoulder, and Jon draped an arm around him. He could smell Horse's unwashed breeches, the sweet scent Satin combed into his beard, the rank sharp smell of fear, the giant's overpowering musk. He could hear the beating of his own heart. When he looked across the grove at the woman with her child, the two greybeards, the Hornfoot man with his maimed feet, all he saw was men. Dance, Jon VII
In that moment, Jon's not skin changing Ghost, but he's hearing and smelling as Ghost does. And then seeing all of the people as just "men"--not wildlings, etc. Jon's seeing people as Ghost sees them.
Sansa and the Hound--arguably they change each other's perspectives a bit. Given that Martin does tie Sansa's bond with Lady and her wishing for Lady to the Hound--I'm wondering if moments like her wearing his colors are possibly like her. . . seeing things from his perspective.
But that might be a bridge too far.
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